BDSM Blacks

[Alex Bragi]

The other day, when I was in the chat room, BDSMtourguide mentioned something I found rather interesting. He said - he's not aware of any black people in the bdsm community.

Now, firstly, I want to make it very clear that while I certainly may have many faults, wasting my time worrying about how much, or little, melanin someone has in their skin is not one of them.

A quick search, of black bdsm on google, reveals literally dozens of porn sites featuring hot black bodies. Hallelujah! I tell you, there' s definitely no shortage of images of sexy black men on the net! Maybe this can be largely attributed to the idea that black men have larger penises and are therefore more sexual? But, more importantly, are these images created for blacks and coloureds or whites?

It's interesting to note dominance/submission and traditional power exchange has played a significant role in African history. Here are a couple of examples:

The West African Malinke tribe's religious belief was the worship of a spirit named Mama Dyumbo who protected their village and kept their women in a state of submission. Whenever a woman was disobedient, her husband would mimic the deity by donning makeup, masks and elaborate headpieces and then drive the woman out of their home for a communal whipping. What an intriguing, and primitive, combination of D/s, cross-dressing, s/m and voyeurism that must have been.

Within the matriarchal society of the Tuareg, of Northern Africa, women enjoyed freedom of choice in sexual involvement and often entertained male visitors when their husbands were absent. The tents and furnishings were the personal property of the women alone. Today, Tuareg men still are required to wear veils that conceal their entire face excluding their eyes. Oh, yes, the very peak… the very essence of femdom!

In the past , in America, the ability of coloured people to survive under the cruel conditions of slavery and be able to retain internal strength, fortitude and resolve was an amazing feat. People tend to gravitate towards others with a similar history. They feel most comfortable with people who have had the same experiences and harships. Since the majority of slaves were non-consenting, and since their forefathers suffered such a horrific past, maybe participating in this kind of lifestyle doesn't have quite the same appeal?

Still, I'm sure there are kinky coloured people out there, but is the number of white men and women to black men and women, involved in BDSM, proportionate to the population at large?

Obviously some coloured people must enjoy BDSM play, but is there a predominance of dominants or subs when compared to whites? Psychologists from Freud onwards theorised that many people who act out bdsm play are engaging in a type of self-therapy—a healing of sorts. So, bearing that in mind, do coloured people simply prefer to play dominant/submissive games with other coloured people, rather than non-coloureds? If so are they perhaps, to some degree, ethnocentric about their sexuality?

Words like 'slut' and 'bitch' are very derogatory, ordinarily they would never be used, however in the heat of bdsm they can be red hot. So would blacks use words like "nigger" during humiliation play?

And, is interracial bdsm the edge of edge play? Is it a bit taboo, especially to many middle Americans? Is that why we don't see or hear much about it?

Finally, I want to reinterate that I'm not a racist. I don't discriminate against people because of their colour, sex, or religion. Quite simply, TG's remark got me thinking about the possible differences (sexually) and reasons for them, between coloured and non-coloured groups.

Oh, and, I really didn't mean for this post to so long, but I guess like Topsy— it just grew. *ss*

Alex :)

[Adamoverjules]

I haven't seen the latest Gallup polls but.... haha j/k

It's definitly an interesting question, and I'm not exactly sure of the angle you are looking for, but in my time online, I have seen a few places and people who believed black people should (still) serve the Dominant White Race. On the other side of the same coin, I have seen places and people that believe whites should serve the Perfect Black Race. So basically, all I can say is yes, they are out there. :dunno:

[GaryWilcox]

Seems to me the stigma associated with BDSM would be doubly bad within the African-American culture... but then, I'm not black, so all I can do is speculate with a little common sense.

[Katmandu]

I haven't once come across in RL any blacks interested in BDSM. Those are extremely interesting questions you've asked, Alex.

From personal experience, I am white female who has slept with a few black men in my life. And yes, they are bigger! LOL
My 2 sons are, actually, half black.

All of this took place eons ago when I was in the Army. Crossing the 'color' boundaries was not a taboo issue while serving together.

Due to the fact I have the 2 children,I have always been a part of his family, even though we split up @ 13 years ago. It's given me many insights into their psychological make-up.

It's amazing that so many of the women are strong willed, and the men tend to be more subdued in their personalities. This works between the bedsheets, also. (Honestly, that doesn't work for me, as I always knew I needed a man that was "more man than me!")

Just watch any of the numerous black TV sitcoms today, and the women tend to dominate the men. Maybe, this is why actual BDSM doesn't work, as they are inherently already living it in one form or other.

Just some thoughts/ observations. :dunno:

[Aeneas]

If there is one thing the sorry twentieth century should have taught us it is that no one race should dominate another race. Coming from a by far from perfect multi-racial society, I applaud our differences and rejoice in our diversity. America is often called a "melting pot". While this is becoming more and more true, I also like to think of it as a mosaic. All the different colors and shapes of glass, unique in their own right, form an amazing image when taken as a whole.

[Darknite]

there have been some black models who I have seen on sites like insex and hogtied. I personally relish in the diversity that is prevalent in America, although I have a problem with the social stigmatas surrounding interracial communication. I've been called racist on occassion for forgetting to refer to someone as 'african american'. Quite to the contrary, the first girl I made out with was black. I've also know a couple ebony ladies who were clearly submissive, but that is quite a jump from being into BDSM.

I wonder how hard it would be for them to get over the fact that their ancestors were slaves to the white people for so long.

That could be bad, you've got her tied up on the bed and her brothers are knocking on the front door yelling about you being a KKK member. Sheesh.

[Nightstriker]

Well I personally know that there are blacks in the BDSM life. I have met a couple of them and I have heard of others.

[GaryWilcox]

I've been called racist on occassion for forgetting to refer to someone as 'african american'. Did you notice how I hedged my bets above?

I actually prefer to use African-American because it doesn't refer to a color, but a culture (which can be related to behavioral patterns), whereas color doesn't predetermine norms of behavior.

[Darknite]

I actually prefer to use African-American because it doesn't refer to a color, but a culture (which can be related to behavioral patterns), whereas color doesn't predetermine norms of behavior.

I agree that skin color has no relation to behavior, and hope I've never been caught using it in any way to describe such things. When I use the word 'black' I'm using merely as a description. Similar examples would be the bald guy, the guy with the glasses, the guy with the red hair (used on me all the time). I guess I just have physical appearance and culture seperate in my mind.

[Barton]

An interesting observation. But I as well have never met a black person whom was interested in BDSM. I wonder what's up with that.

[slavelucy]

Alex, can i just clarify something, are you referring specifically to black people or to any other ethnic groups? i only ask because over here in the UK, you'd be shot at dawn for using the term 'coloured' as it's considered to be VERY un-PC. i appreciate you're NOT from the UK, but you can imagine what it was like for me to read your initial post!! :eek: (Imagine little gasps, wincing and widening of eyes, and you'll get the idea!).

So, anyway, were you using to the term coloured to mean black or ALL ethnic groups? i don't think some ethnic groups are under represented in BDSM (asian, for example) but if you meant black people specifically, then, i would generally agree (based only on my own experience). The only possible theory i can come up with is that some black cultures were already historically considerably more relaxed about sex and sexual promiscuity than white ones (i am not stereotyping, i am basing this view on some level of indirect personal experience)...and i have wondered over the years if victorian white prudish ancestory has essentially led to an increase in kinkiness in the first place. Whereas if a culture was already more laid back and relaxed i would question whether kinkiness would thrive so readily.

This is all pure conjecture, and the question of whether kinky behaviour flourishes more in a controlled or uncontrolled societal and ethical environment is not one we could easily answer, but it's a possibility all the same.

On another note, i had a friend who was involved with a jamican man for a number of years, he also had seven other regular partners, he apparently saw nothing wrong with this (maybe there wasn't anything wrong with it given that even after he told her this AND that he had children with them all, she still didn't give him the boot despite all her whinging), but whether there was anything wrong with it all not, maybe the very notion (and acceptablity, to him, at least) of having numerous different women, all of whom he would say he was very fond of, was slightly 'dominant' in the first place. i don't want that to sound like all dominants do or should have numerous subs, obviously, but i'm more making the point that his behaviour was already distinctly alpha male as it was, without the introduction of DS into the equation.

An interesting point, and one that you're brave to bring up. :)

sl

[csr]

This is an intresting thread... and although I was around for that conversation, I totally forgot about Alex mentioning that she would start a thread on the forum. Glad you remembered!

There has been a fair bit written about "race play" lately--as it seems to be a kink that has slowly surfaced, or come out of the closet, so to speak.

Here is a link to an intersesting article...

http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story7_4_01.html

As far as racial terminology... my weekend job entails spending a heck of alot more time with blacks than whites, and since most of these are Carribean in origin, we don't use the term Afro-American. Now, of course it is arguable that most of the people in the W.I. are *originally* of African descent, if you trace it back. To anyone who brings that up, I would point out that we are ALL Ethiopian if you trace back far enough. (An apology for those of you hanging on to the picture of blue-eyed J.C. on your wall, but I'm not inviting a debate here, lol)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Actually, what I said was that black people on the whole do not tend to get involved in BDSM. I know there are some that do, but as a race, they seem to be well in the minority.

Example: Out of the 700 or so people that have crossed through ST's doors since we opened, I can only think of one black person there, and he's a male submissive.

Also, before this turns into a thread on racism, rather than a thread about black people in BDSM, I'm just going to give the old "subtle reminder to keep things on topic." If someone wants to open a racism thread, then they can. I had actually thought of doing it, but I open a lot of threads already. I figured I'd leave it up to someone else.

(Back to the topic.)
In general terms, it seems that hispanics and blacks don't get involved in BDSM very much. On the flip side of that coin, asians seem to almost gravitate to the BDSM scene.

A person could even go as far as to break the demographics down by region, if they wanted, but that would also be off-topic for this thread.

[Alex Bragi]

The number of replies to this thread interests me almost as much as the actual replies. I honestly thought this one might be one of those 'hot potatoes' nobody wanted to touch.


From personal experience, I am white female who has slept with a few black men in my life. And yes, they are bigger! LOL

Well, at least we've clarified one point. *gg*


Alex, can i just clarify something, are you referring specifically to black people or to any other ethnic groups?

I'm referring, specificaly, to dark skinned African-Americans.


i only ask because over here in the UK, you'd be shot at dawn for using the term 'coloured' as it's considered to be VERY un-PC. i appreciate you're NOT from the UK, but you can imagine what it was like for me to read your initial post!! ...

Well, lucy, to be absolutely honest, living down here in my layback little corner of Australia, I really do find it difficult to relate to what it was like for you. Why are 'coloured' and 'black' such dirty words? I went to uni with an African man - a coloured man, whose skin and hair were literally black. Would it be politically correct to say he had black hair? I tell you something else, he had, the whitest teeth I have ever seen. He was a coloured man with black hair and white teeth -- and a really big... smile.



I actually prefer to use African-American because it doesn't refer to a color, but a culture (which can be related to behavioral patterns), whereas color doesn't predetermine norms of behavior.
Interesting. I happen to be of Dansih descent- I look like I just jumped off a longboat. So, do I call myself a Danish-Australian or a white woman? Neither, I'm Australian -- a white Australian female.

Do I notice what colouring other people are? Sure I do. Just like I notice what they are wearing, their mannerisms, their speech, etc.

But, I degress, this thread is about racial (sexual) differences rather than (anti)racism.

Curtis, sent me this yesterday and I'm sure he won't mind me posting it here. Like much of what he sends me, I found it extremely interesting.

"A quarter of a century ago, back when I used to spend a fair amount of
time reading psychology journals, some studies were done showing that
of the four main racial/gender groupings at that time in the U.S.,
black women were the most socially/interpersonally dominant (no measure
at that time of sexual dominance), followed in order by white men and
white women, with black men being the most submissive. They proved
this by watching pairs and groups of people interact in controlled
situations via closed-circuit TV and seeing who spoke first, who spoke
most, who was interrupted least, who's opinions prevailed most often,
who got to decide what channel to watch on TV, who had the most
controlling (and most subservient) body language and eye contact and so
forth. There were several of these studies done, and the only
differences in their findings were that some ranked black women and
white men equally while most put black women slightly ahead, but both
were well ahead of white women, who were in turn well ahead of black
men. It's interesting that these studies were conducted during the
'angry black man'/'black power' period of the late 70s and early 80s.
I'd venture to speculate that if they did it again today (first of all
they'd probably add Hispanics, Orientals and Indians as extra
categories), they might find that black women have dropped and black
men have risen.

Which may be why blacks are no longer as angry." ~ Curtis.


Actually, what I said was that black people on the whole do not tend to get involved in BDSM. I know there are some that do, but as a race, they seem to be well in the minority.

Gez, aren't you the picky one! *gg* But I was pretty close wasn't I? I just couldn't remember exactly what you had said.


:)

[slavelucy]

Well, lucy, to be absolutely honest, living down here in my layback little corner of Australia,I really do find it difficult to relate to what it was like for you.

Ah, i sense i've upset you, Alex, and believe me when i say that was the last thing i intended to do, you of all people. i wasn't criticising you. It just interested me how much things differ from one part of the world to the next.



Why are 'coloured' and 'black' such dirty words?

Neither are 'dirty' words, and black is fine as far as i know, it's coloured that seems to be a problem. i actually asked the question as to what was wrong with it of a number of black, asian and chinise acquintances, and they said that they considered it offensive to be swept up into some 'coloured' bracket. The question was perhaps best answered by a friend at my old place of work who was black, very black and when i asked him the coloured question, he smiled broadly and said, simply "Well, I'm not red, yellow, pink or blue...I'm black".

But, hey, *I* don't make the rules, i just follow 'em, and all i know that when my Gran says "I quite like that coloured gentleman who reads the news", everyone winces. :dunno:

Apologies if this is off topic, but i felt i should answer your question, or at least make an attempt to. :)

sl

[Alex Bragi]

Ah, i sense i've upset you, Alex,...

If you had managed to offend me, and believe me it's really hard to do, you would have heard the roar, half way around the world, where you are! I know you better than that. But hey, I'm really offended, that you thought I was offended, that you had offended me...*g*


...asian and chinise acquintances, and they said that they considered it offensive to be swept up into some 'coloured' bracket....

Now, this is something really intersting, that I simply hadn't considered previously.

[GaryWilcox]

Interesting. I happen to be of Dansih descent- I look like I just jumped off a longboat. So, do I call myself a Danish-Australian or a white woman? Neither, I'm Australian -- a white Australian female.

Do I notice what colouring other people are? Sure I do. Just like I notice what they are wearing, their mannerisms, their speech, etc.

But, I degress, this thread is about racial (sexual) differences rather than (anti)racism.

Actually, it's not about racial (sexual) differences, but about cultural (sexual) ones. It's just easier to define what we're talking about (culture) by what the most common visual grouping is (race).

Before anyone gets upset with the idea that I am trying to force political correctness on anyone... remember that I 'hedged my bets' initially by saying both AA and black, and even mocked myself for doing so! I can only say about PC what I've already said-- you shouldn't have to fight to find norms of speech in communication, and you shouldn't say the thing that others find offensive. If you can't marry the two, find what is technically correct and shrug along with me. :D

Curtis' example is about cultural behavior, not a study following the behavioral development of racially diverse people raised in a cultural vaccuum. In essence, I'm talking nurture, and you're also talking nuture but using terms of nature. Right?

By the way, tell Curtis thanks for the information!

[Alex Bragi]

Actually, it's not about racial (sexual) differences, but about cultural (sexual) ones. It's just easier to define what we're talking about (culture) by what the most common visual grouping is (race).

If it were cultural wouldn't we be discussing the sexual habits and inherent ways of (modern) Americans as a whole, rather than one particular 'race' - Negroes, verses the remainder of population of the US?

On the other hand, it could be considered cultural since we are not including African Negroes in the equation.

Mmm... interesting.

[Katmandu]

Originally by Curtis:"A quarter of a century ago, back when I used to spend a fair amount of
time reading psychology journals, some studies were done showing that
of the four main racial/gender groupings at that time in the U.S.,
black women were the most socially/interpersonally dominant (no measure
at that time of sexual dominance), followed in order by white men and
white women, with black men being the most submissive

Exactly what I had said. Well, sort of. Just not nearly as eloquently. Being "married" into a black family these many years, this is what I have noticed. Also, TG pointed out the black male sub we once had in this Forum.

It must be because they, as in other cultures, have an inherent Dom/ Sub thing already going on naturally in their lives, while most white folk don't.

[GaryWilcox]

If it were cultural wouldn't we be discussing the sexual habits and inherent ways of (modern) Americans as a whole, rather than one particular 'race' - Negroes, verses the remainder of population of the US? I don't think we can pick a group by race and perfectly characterize their behavior and responses.

Mmmm... maybe I'm wrong. It just seems to broad a generalization, but...

Eh, carry on! I'll butt out.

[Dngnkeeper]

This is an interesting discussion you started Alex. My experience with blacks involved in BDSM is similar to TG’s. In the 10 years I have been involved with munches and public events only a dozen or so of the approximately 3000 people I’ve met are black. Only two are regulars who have embraced my local community.

I’ve had several conversations over the years with both of them on why there aren’t more blacks involved in the public aspects of BDSM. The answers are interesting and mostly relate to culture, history and religion. I’ll list a few in no particular order.

First is the language, words such as master, slave, mistress, and boy are seen as insulting and hearken back to the days of slavery. Out of the box it puts many people off, particularly here in the south east US. Then there the problem of black males being seen as week or vulnerable if they were to admit their submissive nature, especially in public. Another area has to do with religion, and its teachings on sexuality and practice. The black churches and mosques are considered very conservative locally and thus frown on anything like what we know as BDSM. While Curtis noted that there is quantifiable DS aspect to everyday life in the black community there are many reasons that you don’t see it codifyed. This is some of the reasoning I've heard.

As mentioned people of like backgrounds and thoughts will tend to stay together, the ones who are in the public eye generally won’t be visiting with other cultural and ethnic groups. But this can also be said of lesbians, gays, and the TG communities who also practice BDSM. Locally Hispanics and Asians are also under represented at public events and venues.

But that’s not to say they aren’t out there, unless we are paying attention we probably won’t notice. There have been black title holders for both International Mr. Leather, International Ms Leather, brother and sister actually, Ms World Leather, along with events like The Ebony Leather Contest. There are authors like Vi Johnson, a great lady and player I’ve met at events, with her partners Jill Carter and Queen Cougar. You vampire fans might enjoy her books Dhampir, Child of The Blood and To Love and To Love, To Obey, To Serve, Diary of an Old Guard Slave. An interesting place to look would be darkconnections.com (http://www.darkconnections.com/main.htm) . They have a bunch of links to real life groups, info, histories, and stories.

The interesting part in this discussion is how similar the perception of blacks in the BDSM community is around the world even if the reasons for it are different.

[cinna]

Just joined. Saw this thread and just wanted to say, rest assured there are a few of us out here. We just can't tell anyone.

Peace,
Cinna

[Xelebes]

YO BDSMTG! THERE AREN'T MANY BLACKS HERE. THAT WOULD EXPLAIN THE APPARENT LACK OF BLACK PEOPLE IN BDSM IN THIS AREA.

In all honestry and humble manner now, there are a plenty of blacks in the BDSM realm, though it may differ in style and what not.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

YO BDSMTG! THERE AREN'T MANY BLACKS HERE. THAT WOULD EXPLAIN THE APPARENT LACK OF BLACK PEOPLE IN BDSM IN THIS AREA.

Yeah, but I'm from Houston, Texas where there is a very large black community. And still many black people there were apparently not very into BDSM.

I even ran a Houston BDSM group while I was there, and I don't think we had one single black member.

[cinna]

Black people (women especially) cant openly be slaves/subs or even dommes. It's not "right" in our community. We WERE slaves, and our community doesnt understand willingly being beaten and sexually tortured. For us, its something freaky white people do. Im not trying to be offensive but this is how the majority of the black population thinks.

Imagine how hard it was for me to be a r/t 24/7 slave to my master...walking around in a collar and being made to sit at his feet whenever the mood struck him. And yes he was black also.

Men get called "domeneering" (and in this case they would be right) but theres a pall cast over it since black women "aint taking no man hitting her and treating her like sh*t". you cant begin to imagine how many discussions and argumants i have had to have over my choice of lifestyle.

So i say this, if u watch carefully, you will find black people in the life, but it wont be obvious signs, watch how she walks next to him, or how she holds his hand, how she ever so slightly bows whenever he tells her to do something.

its beautiful.

[Katmandu]

Posted by Cinna

its beautiful.

Hey Lady, welcome to the Forum! Thanks for your response to this post. And yes, I imagine the artistic way you have learned to circumvent the taboos of this lifestyle would be well worth watching and learning from. Thanks, again! :)

[slavelucy]

For us, its something freaky white people do.

LOL! Maybe they have a point!

All joking aside those, that one comment has been SO insightful and revealing to me, so thanks for making it, it's really interesting to actually get the opinion of someone who KNOWS about black culture rather than hazarding a guess at it, and, yes, i can well understand the historical reasons for it becoming known as something freaky white people do.

Welcome to the forums, cinna, oh and i second what Kats said, i'm sure your way of dealing with BDSM in a different culture IS beautiful. Looking forward to hearing more about it. :)

sl

[Xelebes]

Well, the other point is that there is quite a few different groups other than BDSM groups, like the furries (which I think there is a slight higher black population.)

It also doesn't help that the notion of bondage and the sort is mostly a far-east Asian and Western European construct - that is, the idea is such a thrill to the idea of submitting when all other worries of domination are not present other than to keep the bountiful supremacy they have over the land. As was purported in other posts - blacks in Africa and in the Americas have a history of fighting for dominance in a social position and thus the desire to create a superlative example of dominance through bdsm is aiming too much. Any attempt at d/s is now to "ghetto" examples as exposed in rap and the sort.

Ok, I don't know if that was bullshit or not. :(