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duktig flicka
09-06-2004, 03:00 PM
I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

ValKyrie
09-06-2004, 05:26 PM
I have met a number of people who are involved in D/s who have a history of abuse. I have also met many other people in vanilla relationships with the same history. There are arguements both ways.

My opinion, for what it is worth:

Certainly, our upbringing could impact our desires, but should not dictate them.

By that, BDSM should NEVER be used in as therapy for past issues, issues that need to be dealt with. If you have unresolved issues surrounding the abuse, you need to see a therapist, do for yourself and make yourself healthy and complete before taking the emotional risks attached to humiliation play.

I found your comments regarding the female role models in your life interesting. I want to tell you that D/s should never be about ruining yourself for another. A healthy D/s relationship promotes growth, health, happiness and self efficacy.

So, could your history have anything to do with your current desires? Sure.

Could your history be the prevailing reason for your desires? Possibly. But if so, leave those desires behind and get some support and assistance in recognizing and dealing with whatever emotional scars remain.

Best wishes to you,

Mistress Val

spike
09-06-2004, 05:35 PM
I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. … From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them.

Adolescents also have a survival instinct to ignore their parents if they are clearly wrong. This is what causes young ‘rebels without a cause’. That instinct has been triggered without a focus. Cultural evolution depends on the two instincts.

Some people get their interest in BDSM your way - the man with the box probably more than the boot on the head which is not very sexual. Some get it by rebelling against restrictive parents, trying anything their parents would hate. Some get it by really wanting to be what their parents wanted – that’s where the service-oriented d/s stuff comes from I would guess. (Anyone got any evidence?)

The big point is, that while it is nice to work out how you came to be who you are, it is much nicer to accept who you are, to celebrate who you are, and to have fun whoever you are. :) :) :)

Spike

ValKyrie
09-06-2004, 05:46 PM
Good post, Spike.

I do think many of us finding the lifestyle later on in life, spend an awful lot of time trying to understand "why" rather than being able to simply enjoy our discovery.

For me, it took me a couple of years to actually stop questioning myself, who I was and the choices I made. Once I had rid myself of much of my vanilla thinking, I was able to enjoy and embrace the Me that had been latent for so long.


I wish the same for everyone entering the lifestyle as it the journey is troublesome, but the destination is peace and happiness.

:)

spike
09-06-2004, 05:54 PM
Thanks, Val. That post had a lot more in it in draft, all sorts of theory about how cultural evolution works but it all went when I looked at the last paragraph and realised most of the rest was made irrelevant by it. Party on!

Spike

Mobius
09-06-2004, 05:55 PM
Well I certainly hope the person that held you prisoner is spending some quality time with a guy named Bubba but in Luxembourg I guess his name would be Helmut Say 25 years experiencing anal rape is a suitable punishment for what you went through.

I have read of 2 women that were held in Russia were they were abducted when they were teens repeatable raped and impregnated tortured until they were discovered when they were 28. There was also A woman in the US that was held in a box under this guys bed for over 10 years. She eventually felt that she belonged there. She visited her family went shopping but returned to her box under the bed. Never said any thing of her captivity. She was Finlay found the Captor thrown in the clink. She wrote a book that I have been trying to find. Don't imagine it being very erotic.

As for me, I was never abused and I never or have never abused any one. I guess that make's me a self made perv.
I can remember getting a woody during an episode of the thunder birds were the Puppets were tied up.(Hey I was only 8 what do you want). I also had a Major thing for Emma Peal in the avengers. Loved that Iron corset.

I am very sorry that my fantasy was your reality. It has always been a thing for me to possess a female sub. To remove her identity to control her completely.

You can rest assured that it will remain an unfofilled fantasy. Unless of course I win the Lottory and get 300 million. Then all bets are off. But seeing that I dont play the lottory, Female submissives accross the world can rest safe tonight.

mythicat
09-06-2004, 06:17 PM
Noone has yet been able to prove any of the many theories behind why we like who or what we like, sexually speaking. Someone else who went through exactly what you did might have the opposite reaction and become dominant or sadistic themselves, refusing to let anyone else ever control them again; another might develop a foot fetish from focusing on the image of their father's foot in a position of power over them; a third may become asexual, fearing people too much to allow for intimacy; and a fourth could turn out completely vanilla in their tastes. I suspect there won't be any answers for a long time if ever. And maybe that's for the best. Personally I like a little mystery in my universe. :)


Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

Reminded me a little of dreaming...how often our subconscious minds create dream scenarios in which we relive events or emotions or even stupid little mundane things we see on tv as a way to try to file and process the information. Maybe your cage fantasy could be something along those lines. Or maybe not. Just a little bubblegum for your brain. :D

redEva
09-06-2004, 06:24 PM
Dear,

All the comments and responses you got so far are accurate and truthful, hopefully it will help you understand your own situation better.

There are few other threads on the board that are trying to find the answer to the same question you are posing.

I don’t think we (or anyone else for that matter) managed to come up with the reason why do we enjoy our particular kinks, and whether this behaviour is more of a nature or nurture. One thing, though, I feel needs to be stressed out is that with your history (little that we now know off) and your obvious pattern of thinking and questions that are arousing from it; ONLY safe and sane decision would be to try to find a professional who is “BDSM friendly” and who could help you answer the questions you have. Just as (I assume) you would not try to use ballet as a therapy for some emotional issues – you should not use BDSM for it.

You might have the affinity for it, that would have brought you into the lifestyle no matter what your past is, but you need to understand and deal with traumas you were put through, so that you can put that behind you, and enjoy what ever your chosen life style might be.

My very close friend was molested and sexually abused from when she was 2 till she was 9. Now she is 50 and still dealing with it. Human beings can survive hell, but healing is long and hard process.

I wish you all best, I hope you find the answers you are looking for and peace with yourself.

Brightest Blessings

P.S. few links
How did you find out about BDSM? (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248)
Does an interest in BDSM indicate a pattern of abuse in earlier life? (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020)
psychology (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65)

slavelucy
09-06-2004, 07:03 PM
Firstly, i'm so sorry about some of your past experiences, it sucks.

There is a thread about this in this forum, called 'Does an interest in BDSM indicate abuse in earlier life?', i found it for ya, it's here:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020

As you'll see on that thread, my overiding feeling on the matter is that one could never really know what parts of our past effect who we are, but, in the right circumstances, being involved in BDSM doesn't have to be something that should be worrying, whatever part of the reason for your interest is, it can turn something bad into something positive and enriching. i think what i mean is, the past isn't going to go away, so it's about proper and safe channeling.

Best regards to you. :)

lucy

jaeangel
09-07-2004, 08:55 AM
There are times when i ask myself the same question.
I was adopted at eight months old and brought into the states by two people I call Mom and Dad. They never told me I was adopted (it finally came out when I was 22) but I think on some level I knew, because I was never treated the way a biological daughter would be treated (I think.) My mother was abusive...the incidents I remember most are the time I was ten and I got into her makeup, and one of her round brushes got tangled in my long hair. She was furious when she came home and found me with her hairbrush in my hair, and because she couldn't get it out, she grabbed the brush and literally dragged me down the hall and down stairs into the kitchen, where she proceeded to cut off all the hair that was caught with a steak knife. Then she took the scissors away that I was trying to even all of my hair off with and made me go to school for the rest of the week with big short and long patches in my hair. It was humiliating. The nuns (I was going to a cathiloc school at the time) were laughing, and so were all my classmates.
And then there was the time I was doing dishes and she came in to check if they were clean, and when she saw scratches on the bottom of one of her pots she went ballistic and chased me around the house waving a meat cleaver and telling me she was going to make me look like the pot. It wasn't even my fault, she found out later she'd made mashed potatoes and the electric blender left the same scratches on the bottom of the second pot that had been in the bottom of the first one. My father was never home. He said he was traveling for his company, and he'd be gone for months on end. only recently, when I hired a private investigator to find him, did I find out that he's now living in Virginia with another woman, has been snce he walked out on my family ten years agao, and his oldest child is now 18. I'm 25. this means that while I was getting beaten up and stuff, he was schmoozing with another woman and having kids with her. The bad part about it is that he's still married to my Mom.
Sorry. Just rambling. I don't have any answers to offer you, except to say that I wondered abut that for a while. Am I enjoying BDSM because it reminds me of my childhood, and did my desire to be humiliated and used stem from those childhood incidents? Do I need to be in an abusive relationship (I was in one out of high school that put me in the hospital before I got out of it) for me to feel like I'm worth something to someone? Eventually, finding no answers to any of those questions, I stopped analyzing and just did what feels good. I'm happily married now to a vanilla man with 2 wonderful baby boys, and I wouldn't change anything about me, because I like who I am. And those experiences I had made me who I am.
I don't know if this helps, but I just wanted you to know I wonder about the same thing you do. You're not alone; especially in this board, there are lots of like-minded people here who understand and are sympathetic, and will help you come to terms with the issues you're fighting with. Hang in there! :)

Pandora's Box
09-07-2004, 09:25 AM
I've been reading this topic... and to be honest I haven't been sure what to say until now.

We are, at least to some extent, a product of our environment. The human mind works in many mysterious and weird ways.

I even think that my needs as an adult tie into my needs that weren't met when I was a child.

But there is one question that keeps coming back to me.

Why does it even matter. I'm not being flipplant or glib. I just speak as someone that was so busy for a period of over 10 years wondering "why"... that I forgot the "how".

I could tell you, indepth, the "why's" of many of the things that makes me who I am and what I like. I can even point directly to individual instances and follow the string of events from those instances.

And while I do think it's important to have some kind of basic knowledge of "why"... it's not nearly as important as setting it aside and dealing with the now. Some will argue that you have to know the "why" in order to deal with things. To be honest... I'm not so sure. Not beyond the basics at least.

After a while it becomes like picking at a wound.

I've spent a lot of time living in the past. And it wasn't understanding "why" things happened that brought me out of it. In fact it was delving into "why" for so long that put me into a state of near catatonia.

It was being exposed to healthy attitudes and having access to a supportive network of friends that pulled me out of my "why" stupor - helped me to face reality. Those are the things that helped me stand up and deal with myself.

It is entirely possible to be healthy and balanced and still have an interest in bdsm. With and without abuse in your past.

I don't know... to me it is only of minor importance what got you to where you are now. It's what you intend to do with it and where you want to take it from here that counts.

:)

My $ .02

aou
09-07-2004, 11:42 AM
this thread made me register. just wanted to say that reading the posts about past abuse made me very very sad. violence between adults is bad enough, but the fact that parents do such things to their children, or adults to children under their care, is terrible. if i met such an adult, i'd probably lose my temper, finally.

that said, i myself enjoy the submissive role without any notable prior experience of abuse. although i suppose my tastes are relatively mild (bondage, light pain, always in a sexual context / situation).

i also enjoy the dominant role, if there's a submissive to enjoy it. (and i only like to give what i like to receive, no more -- happens to be a rule of mine with regular gift-giving, go figure.)

duktig flicka
09-08-2004, 10:17 AM
Thank you all so much for your kind and insightful comments. You were all very helpful. I'm actually hoping to carry out some research on this far too neglected subject once I get to grad school.

Mobius, Emma Peel kicks much ass. Now quit turning me on.

jaeangel, you're not rambling, hon. I'm so sorry for what happened to you. If you need to talk about it at all, please let me know.

masterkurt
09-09-2004, 04:15 PM
I read this thread with utmost interest and would share most of the analysis made and things that have been said. Real abuses in real life offend us all, especially if carried out against children and minors....

As far as my personal experiences are concerned, I did not come across any case of submissive woman with a story of abuses and mistreatments in her past.... on the contrary, my female submissive partners seemed to all come from very caring and loving families and their desires of submission and abuse seemed very a personal matter. On the contrary, I met a few women with a past of abuses and they were not inclined towards submission at all.....

This is just a very scarse statistic and may be non significant at all. On the other hand I do not have a suitable knowledge in psicology to find out a cause-effect relation in the familiar history of my submissive partners and their masochistic inclinations.

Having said all this, I could not avoid considering the events we read in duktig flicka's autobiographical flash also under a different perspective....

Couldn't it be possible that her latent submissive desires and masochistic inclinations have been, at least to a certain extent, the CAUSE and not the consequence of the peculiar way she lived certain events of her life?

The ballet world, for instance ..... certainly a very demanding environment, but is it really such that pupils are willfully constantly abused and that every man in that milieu is a sadist and " every female destroying herself to please them" ?

If this was true, only truly submissive and masochistic females would stand and survive ballet schools and become professional dancers.... (I have to look for a dancer) ....

Personally I also don't believe that an adult, kept prisonner against his will and submitted to non consensual BDSM practises may ever develope a turn on for being jailed and disciplined ...

My 2 cents of wisdom could be so summarized:

If you find SM play enjoyable and you feel it enriches your sexual life, without causing you stress or guilt feelings, just go on practising it (in the usual recommended safe and consensual way)

If you think that your interest for BDSM is connected with your history of past abuses and that you still suffer from psycological wounds connceted with those events, then, do not try to use BDSM as some kind of do-it-yourself treatment. Rather look for professional help to look into yourself and to find a way to overcome those ghost from your past.

mythicat
09-09-2004, 05:16 PM
The ballet world, for instance ..... certainly a very demanding environment, but is it really such that pupils are willfully constantly abused and that every man in that milieu is a sadist and " every female destroying herself to please them" ?

If this was true, only truly submissive and masochistic females would stand and survive ballet schools and become professional dancers.... (I have to look for a dancer)

I studied dance here in America for most of the 14 years between ages 5-19 (primarily modern and jazz, just 1yr ballet) and it was a universal joke across all genres of dance that to be a dancer you HAD to be a masochist! :)

But in America, we do it to ourselves. If I'd had a teacher who was abusive I could easily have found another. Whereas in a lot of the rest of the world, the choices are fewer. In some places athletics are practically a form of slavery where the parents ship the kids off to training facilities and hardly ever see them again. In some places, as brutal as training can be, it's the only chance at a life above the poverty level and if you have the talent you'd be a fool to squander it. And sometimes a love of dance is just undeniable and you do what you have to in order to make it your life. As for the trainers, they don't always have much choice either. When the state runs your program, you have a lot of pressure on you to turn out stars as efficiently as possible. Plus that's the way in which they were probably trained themselves, it's all they know. If they didn't have it in them to work their students hard, they'd likely soon be trying to find other work. And what else would they be qualified for?

Mobius
09-09-2004, 06:08 PM
Not to make light at a very bad situation. With your dancers back ground you can always get work. Legitably and non legitable. You could always dance in the review from any thing from broadway to ice capades. You can be a model at trade shows and the like. Non legitable you can make huge bucks as a stripper.

BDSM_Tourguide
09-09-2004, 07:37 PM
Have a look at this thread (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020) for more information about your concerns.

BDSM_Tourguide
09-09-2004, 07:40 PM
In fact, you're not even close to being alonve. Many people have kink, submission or domination fantasies because of things occuring in their past.

I did a poll in a group I used to run for BDSMers in Houston, TX. In this poll, it was determined that every single one of the submissives in that group was abused at some point in their lives by someone that they loved or trusted.

However, the mystery remains. Would they have led a "normal" life had it not been for their abuse, or would they have found BDSM anyway? Who knows? All we can do is offer our opinions and our support to those that have had this tragedy befall them.

mythicat
09-09-2004, 09:10 PM
Not to make light at a very bad situation. With your dancers back ground you can always get work. Legitably and non legitable. You could always dance in the review from any thing from broadway to ice capades. You can be a model at trade shows and the like. Non legitable you can make huge bucks as a stripper.

Sure, til your body falls apart. Even Jackie Chan is doing more acting than fighting these days! lol You can only perform for so long before the wear and tear on your body wins out. Or you're simply too old to hire. Or, like in my case, an injury ends things even sooner, leaving you without enough of a resume to teach. And it also left me with an inability to work on any kind of stage, legit or otherwise. (Which is probably a good thing, or else I would have been tempted. ;) ) So what happens then? Well, in my case I had other skills and opportunities. Not everyone is so lucky.

mythicat
09-09-2004, 09:39 PM
However, the mystery remains. Would they have led a "normal" life had it not been for their abuse, or would they have found BDSM anyway? Who knows? All we can do is offer our opinions and our support to those that have had this tragedy befall them.

Saw a documentary recently that highlighted a study in which they were able to determine that by as soon as I think 9 months, infants had already developed a social interaction style. (They didn't know for sure if it was permanent or not.) If I remember right, the researchers believed it had to do with a combination of inherent personality + whether or not the child had developed a healthy attachment to its mother...not too withdrawn OR too clingy.

So if you're going to try to solve that mystery, you might just end up going back as far as the womb!

But I don't personally believe it can be solved. There's plenty of evidence that sub's (and Dom's) have a frequent history of abuse, but there's also plenty of abuse victims who aren't kinky at all. And for that matter, it's hard to find anyone anywhere who didn't have SOME kind of trauma in their life at some point. I can't think of anyone I know. That's just life. And even if nothing bad ever did happen to you, wouldn't THAT be boring and make you want to seek out some exciting perviness??? :D

duktig flicka
09-09-2004, 10:41 PM
masterkurt, I'm actually very surprised that you seem to have met dancers who weren't very unstable. Are you sure they were professional ballet dancers? Professional ballet academies admit you when you're a child, you are there literally all day from morning to night. You are not allowed to go out and be social, you are not allowed to date. I had hardly ever met a straight guy until I was 18. For dancers, the treatment I described literally all they know.

I don't, however, think it's fair to say that dancers are masochists. I don't know anybody who didn't hate the way we had to live. It's just that dance is absolute euphoria, to the point where you see dancers with blood squishing in their pointe shoes and they literally haven't even noticed. The more depressed you make a dancer, the more she'll need to dance and the more beautiful her dancing will be. This is exactly why Balanchine "revolutionized" the ballet industry to ensure that dancers were depressed and anorexic. He was very frank and open about that.

mythicat, another dancer! Very nice to meet you! Actually, I'm trying not to give away my identity here, but I'm American. I've only been in Sweden for the past few years. That kind of thing doesn't exist in Sweden, the people before profit attitude is very strictly enforced. Are you still dancing for fun? I hope so, it's so good for you.

mythicat
09-10-2004, 09:00 AM
I dunno...I think once you go from "I take dance lessons after school on Wednesdays" to "I spend 2-3 hours training everyday, 4-6 on Saturdays, and club dancing when I get the chance"...that you've crossed a line into compulsive self abuse. :D Make it ballet and you've gone further over the line. Make it professional ballet school and I'm sorry, but in my book you're hardcore whether you got off on it or not! lol

But yeah, it's worth it. I still have chronic pain. I still dance for fun. I could be in a wheelchair and I'd still spin myself around in circles.
I don't regret it at all.

Hello, my name is Mythicat, and I'm a compulsive dance addict. :o

masterkurt
09-10-2004, 04:52 PM
duktic flicka wrote:

" I'm trying not to give away my identity here, but I'm American. " ....

Ok, this is good news .... I was feeling too depressed about your english, too fluent for any foreigner :)

Hmmm ... but in this case you learned ballet in USA .... not in Soviet Union, and this contraddicts mythicat who stated:

"But in America, we do it to ourselves. If I'd had a teacher who was abusive I could easily have found another. Whereas in a lot of the rest of the world, the choices are fewer...."

Excellence can be achieved only thru hard work and sufference, not only in ballet, but true passion drives you ahead (the love for ballet in your caes, for horseback riding in my case ... it's slowly killing me ) ... so I cannot really accept your fresco of ballet schools as "lagers" and theatres of phisical and psycological abuse on children and young people.


I have met many girls who frequented ballet schools. Most just as a hobby...
(One of them has been my girlfriend when we were in our twenties and revealed herself as a passionate slave). Another went over to a professional academy (Ia Ruskaya in Rome) and became a professional dancer and earns good money now, even if she never became a top dancer. I know with certainty that she had strong submissive tendencies, already before starting her ballet studies, as she confessed them to my sister.

My sister herself started ballet (in very early age) at the ballet school of the Vienna Opera House ... she enjoyed it a lot and small girls like her (she started at 4-5 years of age) were treated in a lovely way.... Though, my sister and me used to play master and slave when we were children and carried our plays up to when we became teenagers..... she was very submissive and masochistic, but was never mistreated, neither in the family, nor at the ballet school.

Some year ago I met a swiss submissive woman ... she was very submissive and strongly exhibitionistic .... can you guess? she was also a dancer (even if not as first profession) ... she told me about her excitement one time that she set up a modern ballet where she danced in her nude .... (a serious modern ballet, not some lap dance ... )

Perhaps there is indeed a relation between submissive tendencies and ballet, but, in my experience, the submissive inclination was always pre-exsisting and I never found records of abuses.

I also met a male who had been a professional dancer .... he was straight, rather dominant .... he started dancing casually, went on because he loved it and also, so he confessed, because there was plenty of females and scarse competition in dating them (many male dancers were not really masculine).

So ... possibly girls with submissive tendencies are very attracted by ballet (and by strong discipline)... perhaps it satisfies both their masochistic and their exhibitionistic dreams.... Perhaps for the same reasons you can find a certain percentage of neurotic women (and anoressic girls) in this milieu .....

But, if this is true ( my statistics base on a much too little population), then, dear Flicka, you could feel resured ..... :)

Go ahead and enjoy the pleasures of BDSM without any anguish or anxiety .... with the right partner, of course.


Post Scriptum:
If you ever plan to visit Florence or Pisa .... :)

duktig flicka
09-12-2004, 12:23 PM
Sorry to argue with you, but do you really think that 3-year-olds take up ballet because they understand what it's going to be like for them and the idea makes them hot?

mythicat
09-12-2004, 01:30 PM
Sorry to argue with you, but do you really think that 3-year-olds take up ballet because they understand what it's going to be like for them and the idea makes them hot?

I think at least part of the problem was that your homelife sucked too. You should have had parents looking out for your well-being. But as we all know, that system is often an "imperfect" one as well...to say the least.

I just hope the rest of your life makes up for it with interest!

duktig flicka
09-12-2004, 01:36 PM
Very sweet of you. Thank you. :)

masterkurt
09-12-2004, 01:41 PM
I don't think I have ever stated that ...

To be frank I don't think that anybody here will be able to confirm or to deny the possibility of your submissive tendencies being a consequence of your past experiences of abuse.... A professional psicologist could perhaps build up his own theory on the basis of deep conversations with you and on an amount of other cases he might be aware of.

I found it rather surprising (I never had noticed it before) that so many submissive women I knew had had ballet trining in their young years .... just a funny coincidence? THough none of these women had experienced abusive situations neither at the ballet school, nor in their families ... as far as I know.

I quoted it just for the sake of conversation and annedotes .... not to draw a rule.

The only advise I feel able to give you, is to live your submissiveness without anguish or guilt, if you find it enjoyable and only for the time you keep finding it enjoyable, but to keep your fingers away from SM experiences if they make you feel bad, guilty or not free.

duktig flicka
09-12-2004, 01:43 PM
The only advise I feel able to give you, is to live your submissiveness without anguish or guilt, if you find it enjoyable and only for the time you keep finding it enjoyable, but to keep your fingers away from SM experiences if they make you feel bad, guilty or not free.

What if both apply?

masterkurt
09-12-2004, 01:55 PM
"What if both apply?"

Then, at least theoretically, I think you should look into yourself and analyse your motivations and try to accept yourself, even in your darker sides.

In this light it seems less important to find out where your dark desires come from .... the point is to accept and to manage them without guilt or stress.

My former slave caroline (she never danced) was excellent in this attitude. As long as she felt she had to be a slave, she managed to be totally submissive in such a linear and selfconsciuos way ... when she felt she no longer had those needs, she just stopped it, mantaining the same good psicological balance.

masterkurt
09-12-2004, 02:12 PM
duktig flicka = capable girl ?

I guessed duktig ..... in german there is a similar word " tuechtig"

in german it could be translated as "tuechtiges Flittchen" ...


very nice nickname

spike
09-12-2004, 02:15 PM
What if both apply?

Maybe, to deal with this situation, some psychaitric help would be appropriate. Jungian psychology is based on the integration of the whole personality including the dark side. So a Jungian may be best. Or perhaps a Transactional Analysis/Script Theory type who will analyse in terms of script and antiscript.

But the end result is the same thing I said before: accept yourself, take joy from yourself, all of yourself. And you can start doing that immediately without any expensive help.

Spike

mythicat
09-12-2004, 02:49 PM
Look in the mirror and repeat after me:

"I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!"
-Stuart Smalley

;)

If you're going to fret about it, counseling (probably) wouldn't hurt. Personally speaking, I think that you come across as remarkably sane for all that you've gone through. Perhaps your underlying submissive nature helped you survive more mentally intact than you might have otherwise. It could very well have been a hidden blessing.

duktig flicka
09-13-2004, 03:56 AM
Thank you, masterkurt, mythicat and spike. I'm going to do my best to take your advice.


duktig flicka = capable girl ?
I'm so impressed!


Personally speaking, I think that you come across as remarkably sane for all that you've gone through. I'm going to take that as a huge compliment. Watch out, though! Everyone appears sane when you first meet them. ;)

mythicat
09-13-2004, 06:45 AM
I'm going to take that as a huge compliment. Watch out, though! Everyone appears sane when you first meet them. ;)

Not everyone... :D

Of course, my own sanity having oft been brought into question, my assessment of anyone else's could be WAY off! ;)

AndrewBlack
09-13-2004, 08:38 AM
I agree with Pandora's Box, there is not much to be gained by the older psychological approaches of asking 'why am I this way?' and analysing your past ad nauseam, we're all the way we are because of what's happened to us. I can only speak from personnal experience here and frankly I think most psychotherapies are of very little use for any 'deviant sexual tendencies' . I have not suffered previous experiences on the level that you have. Again, like Pandora's Box says, it's more important to know who you are now and what you need and want. If you crave something and it dosen't lead to any harm ( to you or anyone else ), have it, and if it satisfies you then great. I used to spend time wondering if things I did, or wanted to do, were 'wrong' or wanted them because there was something 'wrong' with me. Since I abandoned seeking a cause for the way I am and considered that other people may well accept me for it ( I don't have any major antisocial tendencies I don't think :rolleyes: ) I've had a fucking great time. I spent/wasted a lot of my early adulthood, reading a lot of books, I've studied psychology and psychiatry and none of it helped me, it just made me feel I had a disease.

From the point of view of your terrible personnal experience, it sounds horrendous, but you sound like you've really moved on a long way.

I would ask you; Where are you at now? Are you really 'exploiting' your boyfriend do you treat him badly? What does he get out of it? Do you feel satisfied with it and does he and if not, what is unsatisfying ? If it turns you on, why do you think it's bad? Do you actually want to 'get rid of it' ( I assume you are talking about BDSM in your life here ) ?

PopeRozen
09-13-2004, 01:59 PM
Hey duktig, everyone,

Great thread, lots of good insights. My subbie has had some similar experiences happen to her. Not only with her father, but with some of her other "masters" and "lovers" (an even MORE contradictory term) have done some equitably horrible things to her.

I know she has always had a fascination with BDSM, even from a pre-pubescent age. I personally think that some of her traumatizing experiences made her feel less intimidated by fetish. After all, she viewed them as consentual and enjoying themselves so she never categorized BDSM with abuse/trauma.

Its odd that you are attracted to play similar to your abuse. Whenever I am with my pet and I do something similar to her abuse, it triggers a panic attack and I have to stop the scene and make sure she feels better. Even when just having sex, once I was humping her in a way that reminded her of an abusive lover and she began screaming "Stop, No!" (for REAL) and crying. We talked about it and I learned the source of her anxiety.

Oh, by the way, masterkurt wrote:
"Excellence can be achieved only thru hard work and sufference ... but true passion drives you ahead..."

I would have used the word "sacrifice" instead of "sufference," but man I agree TOTALLY!

Find your Peace,
Pope.

punksub
10-05-2004, 02:09 AM
I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?
.

my past history is very similar to yours and am a psychology major. bdsm in general is not harmful when kept sane safe and consensual. i have found bdsm to be very theraputic. My father was extremely abusive, physically and verbally and the things that hated are now some of the things take most pleasure in such as being hurt or verbally degraded. Since i have met my Mistress i have been able to come to terms with very many things that have happened. for me....i have had certain flashbacks in the middle of a scene which can be a very scary thing for the sub or the Dom/Domme. It seems to be a really bad thing to happen but these flashbacks for me have been repressed memories. After acknowledging these memories without trying to, i have been able to come closer and closer to not letting anything that has happened to me effect my thoughts in anyway. i have made sure the my Mistress knows of these things so She knows that there is a possibility to encounter these. It is good that your Dom/Domme know about your background especially if you were abused in any way. I hope any of this helps you.

Chuckdom19
10-05-2004, 10:47 PM
I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

This is the place to air it! Lots of intelligent, sympathetic ears around here... and folks who won't judge.

Let me tell my story. No abuse, 12 years of parochial education, loving spouse. BDSM is in my life because it attracted me. I like being domme'd now and again; is it because the nuns whacked my knuckles? don't know, but I doubt it. My wife was 12 years publicly educated, and her dad was a minister his whole life. She likes to switch, sometimes top, sometimes bottom, like me.

You ran into some bad, horrible, intolerable experiences. I'm sure a therapist could give you gentle, understanding assistance; there's no shame in getting medical help.

Can you "get rid of it"? Likely, you could change your lifestyle. Likely you could change your friends. Would you be happy? Maybe so. But it's kind of like loving a certain kind of candy. You can go months, years without it. But get half a chance to get that candy and you'll grab it eagerly. You might just be causing trouble for yourself in the future.

Are you in a safe, positive relationship now? If so, why not live your life the way you want to? There are thousands of good, safe, loving relationships for each bad one --- much like everything in life. Once you realize that out of every hundred people, 98 are folks who work every day, don't kick their dogs or beat their partners, pay their taxes on time, and are folks who would lose at poker and pay up with a smile. The other 2 of the hundred make so much trouble that they make you forget about the 98. Live your life as you wish, dear heart. Get the help you need from a minister or a councillor; you may have more favorable results from a professional though, for obvious reasons (smile).

Please; if you need to talk further, do. Your need is real.

Spitman
10-25-2004, 01:23 AM
The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

My own experience was one of discovery during my early life. I remember enjoying games of cowboys and indians where a girl got tied up, long before I knew anything about sex. There was nothing in my family background that explains my predilection for bondage. The first time I experienced sexual pleasure was while climbing a rope. That was a coincidence. Spending most of my adolescence out of contact with girls led to experimentation with self bondage, but I might have done it anyway. It taught me a lot about the way physical sensations and fantasies can enhance sexual experiences. I do not feel that I have to mistreat women. Rather I enjoy teasing them with fantasies and sensations. I have always enjoyed 'vanilla' sex. I just find that the other kind is more satisfying in every way.

The other replies in this section tell much the same story. It seems that most of us are this way because we are, not because someone or something made us so. Also I have found that many people in the vanilla world out there enjoy bdsm just as much. They just lack the knowledge and creative imagination to dream it up for themselves. They respond just as powerfully to bdsm fantasies. I think some of the fantasy themes resonate deep in our minds because of associations that go back to early human history.

I know that there are people who feel the need to be treated in a particular way because they were abused, and blame themselves for that. They want to be hurt, sometimes they harm themselves physically and may be suicidal. I have encountered women who wanted to be abused in internet role play and admitted to having been abused in real life. There are people who want to be humiliated because they don't feel they deserve any better. It may seem that they can't enjoy sex without it. I have had many personal accounts of this kind. I cannot prove that there was no psychological or other predisposition, but I do not believe that victims should blame themselves.

I see a major difference between the kind of humiliating and demeaning treatment that converts a sub into a mere creature of the dom while repressing her own personality completely, and mutual loving, caring enjoyment of bdsm fantasy and psychologically enhanced stimulation. For me bdsm is something to be enjoyed with mutual respect and understanding, and it is about understanding the physical and psychological triggers that enhance the sexual satisfaction of the partner.

Others have said that the why is unimportant, it is what you are that matters. My view is that if bdsm enhances your enjoyment of sex, that is sufficient reason to do it. If your partner wants to please you, like anyone in a vanilla sexual relationship, teach him how. Do not go through the rest of your life feeling deprived of the kind of satisfaction you want.

Eraser
10-25-2004, 06:40 AM
http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academia.htm

I would recommend everyone read the power dynamic essays and the apex survey on this site, they are both very interesting. One of the the commonality's I did find in each was a range of about 80% women who had been abused or raped that THEY felt was a foundation of there BDSM practices.

One of the things to consider in the application of past abuse = current BDSM interest is to think of Pavlovian conditioned response and the second is Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Upbringing is strong conditioning, if that conditioning included abuse then it may have set the ground work for your interest now. But your interest now is not abuse, its something totally different and not to be viewed in the same light at all. I would (as had been said many many times before this) recommend PROFESSIONAL help if you feel that your past abuse is currently effecting your sexuality. If your in Southern California I know to Therapist that are very BDSM friendly.

Chuckdom19
10-25-2004, 11:27 AM
My own experience was
(snip)
satisfaction you want.

Very well stated.

Flogger
10-27-2004, 11:56 AM
Sorry to argue with you, but do you really think that 3-year-olds take up ballet because they understand what it's going to be like for them and the idea makes them hot?
I truly sympathize with the plight of very young children being placed in a position by their parents who for what ever reason think they need to be famous and have no consideration for the long term problems they are causing these kids.

Not only dance, but olympics, sports and acting to name just a few.

Adolescents place enough problems on themselves to fit in without help from parents. But in todays society where models and the visible people are so far from the norm, we have been conditioned to believe this is what we should be. Personally, my opinion is this: If the guy in the mirror is happy with who I am, to hell with anyone who isn't. It took therepy to reach this conclusion and while it may not be right for everybody, it's right for me.

Lastly I wish for you only happiness and the ability to accept yourself for who you are.

sweet_candle
12-03-2004, 03:40 PM
Thank for having shared with us your deep, dark secrets.
I've read your post very thoroughly; as a new-bye in this "very worried that current bdsm..." thread it took me a bit of time to write down an answer, but I'd like to put on the table some remarkable points.
Please forgive my rusty English speech, I am an Italian.

Let's start from what you've ran through in your life. Hard to bear. But you have survived.
This is, I think, a common rule of every kind of living: survive, survive, survive -a must in nature-!

So, now you act like you cannot help to live again the extreme experience you have escaped. A lot of people, having passed-by car accidents or other close-to-death troubles, have joined extreme or hard-endeavouring sports, maybe to live again strong emotionals feedbacks.
Every wound you take (both phisical and psycological) starts a response: the body make scars, trying to repair injured tissues or bones, the brain the same. In the common life you can see that every day. If needed, the body and the mind work aside to change their status and comply the environment: out from the skin this results in a temperature rise, a modify of the heart pulse or an increse in the water retention.

When you get a trauma, there is a new environment. Fear is the quickest way to alert you there is a brand-new situation, and it's dangerous. Pain is the flag to point that something has changed in a nasty way.
The inner of you realizes it very quickly, and try to adapt.
Aside the body, the mind urges to fix patches over every wound it has suffered, by developing its own structures and using them to protect itself, preventing damages by new blows. I think that's the main difference: the body can repair a damage, while the mind can repair and make up a sort of draft "preventive defense" against a new strike.
Every trauma can induce ("negative" and "positive" are used just as tag, with no moral value):

-a negative response [or "internal" reaction]: the subject falls deep in the fathom of himself, imploding the stress toward inside, and cutting relations with the external world, to avoid to live again the trauma

-a positive response [or "external" reaction]: the subject uses the experience to create a new system of values, that can be used again -if needed-, to survive again, better and in a more effective way the trauma


"During peace time, warriors struggle against themselves" (Nietzsche).

You have faced the beast. You won. Now it's hard to go back home and live family life. Simply, you can't. So, here you are the need to play bdsm.
Sorry, I don't think it' s possible to go back -just live it and enjoy it-. There's nothing wrong, if SSC. You don't harm anyone.

Reviewing your several postings, it seems that you have the attitude to share your story. You have written quite several excerpts, so you feel the need to talk about it and spread out what you have inside, also to cast in a frame all your experiences.
Maybe you can nurtur the art of writing...

:goldcup:


I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

magicalnymph
12-08-2004, 12:11 AM
I can only speak for myself as I come from a very abusive childhood. I am an introvert by nature. So I am always looking for why I am who I am. And I do agree that life is much easier when one just accepts who they are instead of questioning it. Took me a lot of years to realize that. I have a degree in Psychology, which I can say is directly related to my trying to understand the past and the effects of it.

As I said I can only speak for myself...but I have asked myself many times if there was a connection between the past and my enjoyment in BDSM. The only connection for myself is that the past affects my limits. For me that means I have some limits that are harder to push and such. I want to enjoy myself not take myself back to that place. (hope ya understand what I mean). I can see the line between BDSM and abuse. My past helps me with that as well as my schooling and my understanding of BDSM. I did not learn submission from the abuse. I learn to hate. If anything the abuse taught me to be stronger in my mind. To respect myself more and to never be anyones doormat. I am not saying I haven't made mistakes along the way or that there haven't been times I fell into those old patterns. But the connection between the past abuse and BDSM is lost in the consent. You survived the past .You choose the future.

Thats just my opinion and well you know what they say.

Uvas
12-24-2004, 09:20 PM
Mobius,

The name of that book is "Perfect Victim".

The girl was truly submissive. Even at the guy's trail, she didn't act upset or angry at the guy.

bug
02-23-2005, 09:15 AM
juicy thoughts i ponder as i see that S/some have done some research. this makes me happy that A/all that participated were happy with topic of conversation and i offer my apology to T/those it may have offended.

a Friend of mine and i were discussing this forum discussion yesterday and W/we have come with the solution that most BDSM interests stem from abuse and i would like to encourage those W/whom have not suffered abuse of this kind that W/we have spoke of these last few days, to come forward and explain why T/they have fantasies about this. *smiles*

then maybe W/we can notice what W/we don't notice *winks*

thankies A/all this have given me more enlightenment to my own individual understandings and workings *nodnod*

learningtopleez
02-24-2005, 12:09 AM
a Friend of mine and i were discussing this forum discussion yesterday and W/we have come with the solution that most BDSM interests stem from abuse and i would like to encourage those W/whom have not suffered abuse of this kind that W/we have spoke of these last few days, to come forward and explain why T/they have fantasies about this. *smiles*

then maybe W/we can notice what W/we don't notice *winks*

thankies A/all this have given me more enlightenment to my own individual understandings and workings *nodnod*

I think that is a great idea bug!! :) If we can begin to notice what we don't notice then perhaps we can begin to notice what is shaping our thoughts and deeds! :dunno:

I guess life is a continuous learning process after all!

~ltp~

RhondaLee
02-28-2005, 01:17 AM
Since the original question has been answered, I like to hijack this thread for a related question.

I was also abused when I was young, and because of that, I grow like the idea of BDSM. As a result, for relationship purpose, I only like people within the BDSM circle. Conventional sex and foreplay does not arouses me.

The regular friends that I met who are NOT into BDSM are decent, nice regular folks with great personality who is happy with conventional sex. If I am not into BDSM, I would have date these people.

But all the BDSM people that I met are all trashy, whackhead, some are abusive, none of them have decent personality.

However, as far as sex is concerned, I have to date people in our BDSM circle. Should I continue to dig for a future someone who is a nice person also into bDSM? Or withdraw the idea and find a regular person?

ANother idea is to find a nice person and either introduce him/her into BDSM. But if that person is not interested, then a few months of time is wasted.

BDSM_Tourguide
02-28-2005, 10:55 AM
The regular friends that I met who are NOT into BDSM are decent, nice regular folks with great personality who is happy with conventional sex. If I am not into BDSM, I would have date these people.

But all the BDSM people that I met are all trashy, whackhead, some are abusive, none of them have decent personality.

I'd say you need a new circle of friends.

Dngnkeeper
02-28-2005, 11:32 AM
But all the BDSM people that I met are all trashy, whackhead, some are abusive, none of them have decent personality.

ANother idea is to find a nice person and either introduce him/her into BDSM. But if that person is not interested, then a few months of time is wasted.

Rhonda this puzzles me. In the thirty years I have been involved with BDSM the people you discribe make up a small minority of the thousands I have met in the lifestyle. So it seems odd the all of the people you have met with BDSM interests fall into this catagory. As you dont indicate your location or where you have been meeting prospective partners its hard to explain this as it is the opposite of my experiences.


However, as far as sex is concerned, I have to date people in our BDSM circle. Should I continue to dig for a future someone who is a nice person also into bDSM? Or withdraw the idea and find a regular person?

Well thats up to you but if you continue to look for those with BDSM interests you certinally need to change your approach.


ANother idea is to find a nice person and either introduce him/her into BDSM. But if that person is not interested, then a few months of time is wasted.

This can work too. There are several threads here on the topic. But if you are interested in instant gratification you may just be disapointed in any person you meet.

ProjectEuropa
02-28-2005, 12:01 PM
Rhonda this puzzles me. In the thirty years I have been involved with BDSM the people you discribe make up a small minority of the thousands I have met in the lifestyle.

I don't have your experience Dngnkeeper but as someone who stumbled into BDSM and was ripe for being found a fool, I have to say I have never stumbled over what Rhondalee goes onto describe 'But all the BDSM people that I met are all trashy, whackhead, some are abusive, none of them have decent personality.' On the whole I would say I have found the BDSM community as a cross section more positive than the a cross section of the population as a whole. Of course you come across characters you don't like but it's impossible to like everybody.

Wontworry
02-28-2005, 04:49 PM
Stick around, RhondaLee, and I am sure you will find that most people here are about as 'normal' as they come. While I don't have the experience of many of the members, the number of idiots I have met on this site I could count on the fingers of one hand. The vast majority here are decent people following their particular kink.

So to answer your question, I strongly advise waiting for the "future someone who is a nice person also into BDSM".

Barton
02-28-2005, 08:16 PM
The old are they" real or just wannabees" question. For the most part you will find that most people who are into BDSM are a pretty above average bunch. We communicate well, we show a lot of respect in our dealings with each other, in fact we are pretty easy to get along with. If you have not found people such as this, then you do need to look elsewhere. To fully appreaciate this lifestyle you need to find people who can earn your trust and respect. They are out there.

lillianskye
03-01-2005, 09:09 AM
[QUOTE=duktig flicka]I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

Duktig,

I was abused as a child too. My bondage fantasies began long before the abuse. For instance, I have always loved being scared. I was watching that chessy horror flick waxworks and the part with the Marquis de Sad come on. That was it for me. I was 7. I think the problem you are having is that people believe it is impossible for a person to suffer abuse and come out with a healthy view on sexuality. I am here to tell you that is a myth. I think the part you are missing is that Bdsm is suppose to be fun. At least in my opinion it's just a game. I want a guy who can PLAY dangerous in bed but is a teddy bear in real life. I think that is pretty normal.

If you needed me to pin point for you some psychological reasoning behind my affinity for this lifestyle, I am more incline to believe its the fact I was a preacher's daughter. Or perhaps its because I am a control freak. Either way I don't think it really matters. What matters is being comfortable with who you are, and finding someone who you are comfortable with too.

I hope I don't offend anyone. This is just my view. I hope it helps.

slavelucy
03-01-2005, 05:36 PM
I want a guy who can PLAY dangerous in bed but is a teddy bear in real life. I think that is pretty normal.

Hmmm, i have increasingly come to wonder if that's possible actually. i have known some really nice vanilla guys..but they just cannot get into BDSM...equally Wontworry (my Dom, lover and all round friend) is great, both DS wise and otherwise, he's loving, laid back and lots of fun...but i'm still not sure he could ever be aptly described as a 'teddy bear'...because in the end, he's still dominant, if he wasn't, he wouldn't be a good dominant. (sounds ridiculously simplistic i know, but i really mean it)



hope I don't offend anyone.

Whilst i might not agree with you, you certainly haven't offended me, it's interesting to hear about how other people see BDSM fitting into their lives, and it's what makes it so diverse.

(Although you may have offended the Marquis by calling him sad! LOL)

Welcome to the forums btw, nice to have you on board.

sl

Caitlin
03-12-2005, 04:51 PM
Duktig flicka

Reading your story has really touched me. Let’s get to basics. Nature Vs. Nurture. Are we the way we are due to some sort of genetic imprinting as is shown by studies of identical twins separated at birth; or are we the way we are due to the environment in which we live.

Are you the way you are because of genetic imprinting or because of the environment in which you lived, or both. I would go for both. You have not mentioned your mother. Was she submissive to your father, and then to your instructors/teachers? Did she try to protect you from their abuse? I think not. Or not to an extent that it made a difference.

The amount of abuse you suffered throughout your formative years is astrominical. First Dad, then Dad and your instructors and the whole psyche behind the ballet business, then your rapist/abductor.

Stockholm syndrome is where victims of a kidnapping, or people taken as hostages develop a relationship with their captors, and they may also help the captors to achieve their goals or to escape the police. In order to survive, the victim attempts to relate to the captor/kidnapper to gain their sympathy. While this may apply to your rapist/abductor, it would not apply to your father and instructors.

Analytical psychosocial professionals cannot agree as to the reason why we do the things we do, but all would correlate early abuse to BDSM. Those who say that even though they are into BDSM and were never abused, there is the fear factor. It’s a part of our survival instincts. It also counts for the success of crime shows on TV. I could go on, but I’m digressing.

Any way back to basics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. However, we know also that we can condition animals as well as people to act in certain ways. Pavlov’s Theory. Dogs learnt to salivate when the light was turned on, or they would not be fed. Mice were stimulated in a particular cage, and after a while they could only have sex in the cage they had been having the sexual stimulation.

Which leads us to Cause and Effect. You were abused, and you had a desire to please. It is a natural progression that you used the abuse as a stimulus, and you felt gratification at being able to please them.

Is BDSM harmful or therapeutic? It could be harmful if you were with the wrong Dom. Only you can tell if you are gaining any therapeutic value out of BDSM. As for your fear that you may be exploiting your boyfriend, talk to him. You said you vaguely talked about your dark secrets. Lack of communication is the major factor on the breakdown of relationships. When you feel you are ready to talk to him about your feelings do so. Remember you don’t have to hit him with everything all at once. If after you tell him and he doesn’t love and respect you afterwards, then you may have to decide if he is worth your time or love in the first place.

Remember to love yourself for the person who you are.

Caitlin :)

Locked Advantages
03-21-2005, 04:59 PM
From my opinion

I hear many people telling me most vanilla friends that I have saying I go for BDSM since I haven't had the best childhood or that I was raped....but honestly I know what I am....that is intelligent, strong enough to submit, but I also learned from situations that made me stronger I won't let myself get into that type of situation that I've been in once again. I was just reading some of the responses here...BDSM might be somewhat from my childhood, but I don't do it because I've been hurt...I do it because the submission is a part of me. With my former dominant it gave me more confidence. I think when people tell me its from abuse, that is from ignorance on their part...all I know is what I desire and love about myself;)

Sarah

spankinsue
03-21-2005, 09:08 PM
Sarah,

I know that for me bdsm is not related to any "bad" history. I had an idyllic childhood. Totally normal. Very vanilla. I married the only guy I had slept with at 20. We were happy for 17 years and had fun playing with bondage and spanking etc. I am a very take charge type of woman. It's great to have someone you can trust enough to give over your fate to. Personally I don't think you can have such a great dom/sub relationship unless you are pretty well adjusted. To be able to trust like that takes faith in yourself and the other person.

In my job I see alot of really messed up people, and I can say with complete certainty the people on this site are much happier and well adjust than average.

alura
03-22-2005, 03:49 PM
Although I was sexually abused from the time I was nine years old (earlier, actually, but it was very brief and fleeting...not like the other was...which is what really, pardon the french, fucked me up for years), I feel that one has nothing to do with the other. Or it shouldn't.

In my case, as you can read in my bio, I was writing erotic stories from a VERY young age, 3 years before my ninth birthday...maybe even younger than that. And they were always dom/sub stories, though I didn't know the distinction at the time. Before I could write, it was pictures of the same; I can remember drawing them; though luckily I wasn't anatomically accurate enough for them to ever figure out what I was really putting down on paper.

Whenever I have been with someone in what everyone keeps calling a 'vanilla' relationship (STILL can't figure that one out) during the actual act, I 'go away' completely.

The only time I ever had a real sexual arousal was when I was writing my 'stories'. It was then that I couldn't keep my hands off my ex; and if he wasn't around, my hands off myself.

The only other time I have ever felt that way is on this site. Finding out who and what i really was...and what I really longed for. Now I only have to think of this site...and the life I hope to someday live for real.....and the same feeling happens.

So for me, despite the fact that I walk around excited all the time/damned inconvenient when you're trying to add a column of figures; this place was my 'awakening' to both [1] a lifetime of denial and [2] that real happiness was no longer just an elusive dream for me....but a someday, very real truth.


I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

lillianskye
03-24-2005, 12:06 PM
I just wanted to add a thought here.

IT seems to me that it would make more sense that if a person is born with a presdispostion to being submissive, that would make them more valunerable to abuse. Aren't abusive people amazingly empathic when it serves their purpose of manipulating others? ISn't that why society refers to molestors as "sexual predators"? They just know a child that wants to please authority figures, and they know what buttons to push to make that child do what they want. Even in physical abuse or verbal, the same scenario is playing itself out. The abuser has to find a person who is valunerable enough to take the abuse. In childhood, it is a lot easier, because ALL children want to please authority figures and ALL children are extremely weak in comparison to adults. (I mean inregards to influence from adults.)

I think the reason why so many BDSMers struggle with this very question is because most of us became "aware" very early. I don't think (at least personally) that it is the abuse itself that messes with a person's head, it is the extent of your understanding about what is REALLY going on. ie the abuser's motivations, awareness of the manipulation, awareness of induced guilt by the abuser, etc....

The point I am desperately trying to make is the more intelligent, the more passsive, the more aware a child is the more susceptible that child becomes to abuse. In my dealings with other like minded people, I have found that the above criteria is very common among the BDSM community.

The reason I believe people are drawn to BDSM is because it fulfills sexual arousal on many many different levels. The more aware of yourself you are, the more levels a sexual partner has to "touch" to truely satisfy.

alura
03-24-2005, 03:26 PM
Since i've been intensely discussing this with someone on the board for about an hour and a half now, I'd have to give you hazzzahs on this observation!
Makes perfect sense. We're walking, talking, breaathing radars.



I just wanted to add a thought here.

IT seems to me that it would make more sense that if a person is born with a presdispostion to being submissive, that would make them more valunerable to abuse. Aren't abusive people amazingly empathic when it serves their purpose of manipulating others? ISn't that why society refers to molestors as "sexual predators"? They just know a child that wants to please authority figures, and they know what buttons to push to make that child do what they want. Even in physical abuse or verbal, the same scenario is playing itself out. The abuser has to find a person who is valunerable enough to take the abuse. In childhood, it is a lot easier, because ALL children want to please authority figures and ALL children are extremely weak in comparison to adults. (I mean inregards to influence from adults.)

I think the reason why so many BDSMers struggle with this very question is because most of us became "aware" very early. I don't think (at least personally) that it is the abuse itself that messes with a person's head, it is the extent of your understanding about what is REALLY going on. ie the abuser's motivations, awareness of the manipulation, awareness of induced guilt by the abuser, etc....

The point I am desperately trying to make is the more intelligent, the more passsive, the more aware a child is the more susceptible that child becomes to abuse. In my dealings with other like minded people, I have found that the above criteria is very common among the BDSM community.

The reason I believe people are drawn to BDSM is because it fulfills sexual arousal on many many different levels. The more aware of yourself you are, the more levels a sexual partner has to "touch" to truely satisfy.

Velvet Starblue
06-16-2005, 01:31 AM
I understand where you're coming from. I too was abused as a kid, by my dad. It can all get very confusing sometimes. I'm adding a summary of what happened to me later in life that changed me; I posted this in my blog a while back. Although I do give details here, most of it is my amateur attempt at psychological analysis. I don't want to upset anyone who has been abused... my experience is VERY unusual. If someone feels this is in the wrong section of the board then I apologise, so let me know and if necessary I'll move the post. I'm new here still so am not sure as to whart goes here and what doesn't.

Songs of Experience (not so much Innocence)
I'm sure poor William Blake would be spinning in his grave if he knew that someone on this site was misquoting his titles as I just did... although Lord Byron probably would approve.

Here's something from a female perspective, speaking from personal experience... now this, OBVIOUSLY, does not work for all women as we are all so different. It works for me, I know that for sure!

Rape is obviously about power, and control. On the victim's part, within fantasies and role play, it can also be about absolving responsibility and being forced to do what one secretly longs for or wants to experiment with. I would never have expected to like being violated, let along react the way I did. It's not something I've ever talked about much before, and it's an experience I'm still adjusting to, in some ways.

Going through all this has changed me. I feel that it is for the better, as I have learned so much about myself and others. Although I am, generally speaking, more guarded and careful because of what happened, it's opened various aspects of my sexuality that I never would have explored otherwise, and on the whole this has been good fun, although confusing.

I've gone on about it before in this blog, but didn't really concentrate on the psychological effects of being raped - which, is essentially what it was - but enjoying it. Now that really WAS confusing, to say the least.

The guys who got hold of me tied me up and went down on me first, forcing me to orgasm a few times... a battle which I did my best to fight, but lost. When they'd exhausted me, they had me, making me do whatever they wanted. Their justification of this was that as they'd taken the time to make me enjoy it, they could be as rough and brutal with me as they wanted to. They were. I'd always prefered gentler sex until then... so the fact that I came several more times, while being thoroughly degraded and treated like a piece of meat, really messed my head up for ages.

Afterwards, there was a vast amount of guilt and confusion on my part. As far as I'm concerned, rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman. I've always believed that. It's one of these ridiculous myths that women secretly enjoy the REALITY, as opposed to the fantasy, of being raped. It is, generally speaking, such a horrendous experience.

With me it was very different because they made sure I was spent, so I was aroused to the extent that I couldn't stop myself enjoying it. I guess I really was very lucky in some ways, and it must be very tough for other women who have been badly hurt and traumatised to see me here, going on about how good it felt to be forced into something that I hadn't wanted. By making me come, the guys took away my dignity and threw my belief system up the creek for a fair while. Also, I never had rape fantasies before this happened to me, but have loved reliving my experiences ever since.

The most humiliating, and yet also the most liberating aspect of the experience was being forced to lose control completely, despite my pleading with them to let me go. I was made to react in such a personal and intimate way, to something brutal that I'd always despised and feared. By the end of the rape, I was begging them to stop and begging for more all at once. I still feel somewhat ashamed, that something like this excited me. The fact is, it did, and it still does.

Although it was quite hard to come to terms with what these guys did to me, I think in the longrun it really did help me open my mind a little and cope with shit from my past. I don't want to give the impression that they would have stopped - nothing would have stopped them from raping me that night. I didn't get any choice as to whether they did or not. Initially I struggled so much that they tied me up to make me submit, although I pleaded with them not to. It was a case of shutting up and dealing with it really, being their plaything for as long as they wanted. I can't say I was particularly frightened, because I knew them so well and I knew they wouldn't become violent enough to seriously damage me, so I did have some form of safety net there, but that was dependent upon trust - that in itself was a big mindfuck. It's kind of difficult to keep your trust in men who are forcing you into something you don't want to do, even if you feel damn sure they won't get carried away enough to hurt you much.

They took a lot of pleasure in manipulating how I reacted to them. I remember psychologically trying very hard not to let my body repond - I felt like I shouldn't let myself enjoy it because I didn't want it, and I kept telling them to stop... at which point they became more insistent. I was getting hotter and hotter and I felt as though, if I let them make me come, I'd lose my self-respect. Struggling to keep control of myself and ultimately losing that battle was confusing to say the least.

I had to deal with the fact that (as they correctly kept telling me at the time) regardless of what I said, I just couldn't ignore how good it felt after a while. It became far too intense a but I had no choice. IAlthough it was a shock, being forced to lose control felt better than anything I've ever experienced - I could let go of my inhibitions and not be responsible, which I think is why a lot of women enjoy rape fantasy.

They all had me several times and it was incredible. They'd taken me to the point where all I wanted was to feel them force me into submission and to lie helpless while they fucked me again and again. It was weird.

I felt dirty and very ashamed for enjoying it, but I was lucky in comparison to so many others. I wasn't beaten or hurt, so I felt I had no business being traumatised. One thing that really got to me was my reaction. I'd always enjoyed oral sex and being dominated, but nowhere near to that extent. If anyone had told me, prior to that night, that a man could force me to come I would never have believed it, particularly after what I went through as a kid. I learned to disassociate that experience from my earlier experiences because, this time, it had felt so good to be dominated.

Well, these guys opened my eyes. I'd never had rape fantasies before but after what they did to me, I've found that I have my most intense orgasms when I'm being coerced in a similar way. Lying there helpless while I was brutally taken was so intense.


I hope this hasn't upset anyone. :(

2Tassel1Whip
06-18-2005, 12:19 PM
well thats what caused mine. you see, as a child my father would insert large objects (baseball bats, computer monitors, etc) into my supple anus, causing much pain but at the same time pleasure. he would then cockify my oral cavity three times in one second. this is, i believe, the cause for my love for bdsm :)

kist
06-19-2005, 02:33 PM
My first real post other than an intro :)
I know that my past history ( some petting type sex abuse from a friends older brother when i was four) caused me to be sexualized early. I struggled for a long time as an adult with coming to terms - not because it was an awful experience but _because i liked it_. Took a therapist reminding me that our bodies are supposed to like sexual activities before i could forgive myself for liking it.
My family was also abusive. Not sexually but my dad was a raging alcoholic and my mom verbally abusive. I grew up defiant(inside) and independent ( the 'i dont need anyone' syndrome). That led to me being the strong one in my relationships. At least the perception was that i was strong - in reality i was just too afraid to let things 'just happen'. So i was actually controlling.
Jungian stuff helped ...as did Transactional Analysis (smiles..as mentioned earlier in the thread)
My D/s relationship has given me a safe place to act out . My Dom is able to love me unconditionally....although sometimes He struggles to know if what i need is a spanking or a cuddle. Problem being that i dont know how to express some feelings...and i'm sure thats left over from childhood. After all if you are trying to please everyone and always be perfect...how can you learn about your own self?
I also was not allowed to express anger as a child. Even now i'm not too good at it.
Thank the gods He's stronger than me lol.
I'm not sure this message is very coherant .... but i sure understand where the original poster is coming from...
kist

alura
07-01-2005, 03:54 PM
You'd be surprised how many abused people end up here. I think it's because when you suffer from sexual abuse, especially as a child, you become somehow 'disconnected' from your sexuality.

The act of submission --- or dominating --- reconnects you again.

Before I found this lifestyle, I never fit. I just didn't.

Now I do.

To me, worrying about how you got here isn't important.

What is important is just EMBRACING it.....and learning to love yourself in the process.

You are who you are. It's as simple as that.

cts81
07-03-2005, 02:25 AM
I was raped by 2 teenagers when I was 15 it was in no way anything to do with me being submissive we were not in a sexual or romantic situation they just decided to rape me. I was submissive before this happened (I was abused as a child not sexually and nothing to the extreme) and it had no effect on that although obviously it did affect other aspects of my life.

I am comfortable with my sexuality however when I first brought it up with my husband he was very uncomfortble. He knew about the rape and abuse and had great difficulty accepting what he thought as similar circumstances could give me pleasure.

Kaori-san
07-03-2005, 03:33 AM
I had a strange childhood, not abusive... really the opposite...

As I was growing up my mother and father were both lovely when I was young, but then they moved me to another school, forcing me to be in an all girls school after a mixed one. I hated it, and wept every night when I was 8. Then, as I got older, about 14-16 my mother moved towards christianity and turned very strict (protestant). At first I didn't mind, but when she began to be at church all the time I stopped wanting to please her. Her strict beliefs turned me away from that faith and I began to hate having any part of it. She went through my books and such and threw away anything thing she though could be anti-christian and so I stopped reading at all, for fear she'd realize I wasn't christian, as she checked the backs of all the books I read (I didn't want her to find out I wasn't and force me to church all the time... I knew she wouldn't accept it). Then I turned to writing as an outlet, I wrote sci-fi/fantasy stuff, all innocent, just a way for me to do something, with reading gone (something I loved). She soon found out about this, and banned me from writing anything again... I started to draw and paint, and went on to do art GCSE, but my mother hated the stuff I drew, as my art was non-christian according to her. So I got no praise.. but she could not stop me from doing it at school of course.
I did well at arts, but got no support from my family, and convinced myself I was terrible at it, even after getting A grades at school. My mother and father wanted me to be a doctor, but I hated that, and wanted to be a vet, but they didn't support me at all and I had to organise everything for myself in order to get into University while all my friends parents helped them along.
My mother started to read books about "boundries" in her life, and my father and her drifted appart as she didn't sleep in the same bed as him, and argued all the time. They never got divorced, but to be 15 and to be constantly hearing your parents argue is worse for me.
I started to count down till I could leave home and be free to live a life I wanted, but when I was 16 things got really bad. My best friend was a wiccan, I didn't care at all about that... it's just another religion, however my mother found out. She banned me from seeing her again, and since my other friends were Muslim, I stopped being friends with them too.. so at school I had no friends to talk to, for fear my mother would find out if they weren't christian.
I ended up crying a lot in private, and slit my arm (I can't slit my wrists, I hate it), it made me feel bette. No one ever found out, and very few even know I ever did.
I never had a boyfriend, as my mother only let me go out with 'good christian boys form church' but I wasn't going to date them. I hated myself for many years after. My family ignoring me, and only paying attention to tell me what I was doing wrong, with no friends or a loving family.... I still hate having anything to do with christianity (I don't mind if others are though, but personally I could never step foot in a church). I lived a very oppressive life through my teenage years, with no attention, something you really seek as a child. So, I went to rock concerts and festivals and got drunk and such when I was 15-17... and was always in trouble... with my parents fighting constantly...

Sorry for rambling.. I had to get that out...

I have to say, my need to be dominated doesn't come from that, I think it's almost that with a Dom I can be cared for.... :confused: A Dom orders you what to do, and you will inevitably get attention.. this could be a link with me childhood... I'm not sure. I drifted towards being a sub when I was about 13 though...... before the christianity set in... so maybe not.. I'll never know.

I think it depends on past life and what you are like anyway, a mix of both, which all lead to who you are. Ballet (as mentioned before) could make people either a sub, because of it. Or, as said above, you might already be a sub, and thats how you lived through it. Of course, the forcing to be a sub could make you hate being one, and make you a dom... it can go either way..

allalone46
07-03-2005, 07:15 AM
Karori-san. I think that this is one of the reasons for this page. And if it isn't or wasn't, :dunno: well so what.

Kaori-san
07-03-2005, 09:51 AM
Karori-san. I think that this is one of the reasons for this page. And if it isn't or wasn't, :dunno: well so what.

Thanks :o

kinkeeamee22
07-11-2005, 11:25 AM
back when i first started having sexual relations, i didnt understand what all the hype was about sex. sure it felt good, for like a minute. and the thrill of being caught was kinda cool, but i just didnt understand it. Even with people i cared for, and thought I loved, it was just an act. I wanted it to mean something, be more than just something to do. When me and my now husband started with some light bondage it was something i would look forward to, it was more than just sex, it was being able to trust someone so completely that you could submit to them. There was a meaning in it for me. So, i think that yea, abuse could have led you down this road, but not in a bad pyscological (spelling is so wrong eh?) way. Think its just your way of letting someone you love know that you can trust them that much. Abuse henders up the trust issue. You trust someone not to hurt you, so you let your significant other take control to work out your trust issues...that make sense? because someone broke ur trust once with abuse, you put yourself forward testing trust with your bdsm life kind of.
im just rambling now...lol
thats just my 2 cents.

Sweep
07-13-2005, 09:39 PM
I'm a Dom and I've always been that way.

I recall being in primary school and fantasizing how delightful it would be to see a girl in my class caned on the bare bum.

My childhood was normal and not subject to any excesses. I remember getting into serious trouble on one occasion when I described my fantasy to another student who told everyone. After that I've learnt to keep my feelings to myself.

I'm sure that the nature and nurture debate rages in this area of psychology as much as everywhere else - but there are certainly some who are born wired up with this sexual preference.

Movito
07-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Began with a fetish for masks and black clothes when I was thirteen. Went over to dreams of bondage with 20, and found BDSM with 28.

I find a lot of possible reasons in my childhood (family was good, but all the rest...). Today only one thing is important: it is part of myself, nobody can change it, and I like to be as I am.

My opinion of what the reasons are: human beings have the instinct to play. Playing helps to learn, to prepare for difficult dangerous situations. SM-people play the things they fear (or have once feared) most. Together with sexuality, it becomes addictive.

Note: that is only a theory, completely grown on my own rubbish, so nobody else is responsible for it.

miss duece
07-15-2005, 11:44 PM
honestly this thread has shaken my view a bit as there are many stories of members suffering from past abuse. based on my local bdsm community i've gain the perspective that the majority of people involved in bdsm came from normal stable childhood backgrounds, but eh, now i'm not so sure. i was never abused as a child, but i had my rebellious moments, which is totally normal for anyone. there's so much theories as to why people with past abuse being drawn to bdsm. but what about us folks with more calmer backgrounds? are we just drawn to it because of taste or is there something more?

NightDaughter
08-24-2005, 09:09 AM
I often think if I'd not meet my first BF and been raped by him would I ever have gotten into this lifestyle? The answer I will never know, becuase it happened and here I am.

I left for a time becuase I got the courage to do so, but I came back becuase for me it was the only lifestyle sexualy speaking that I new about and was in most regards comfortable with.

I meet a person, who I though I could trust will all my heart, but that trust was broken many times (I'd found myself in yet another abusive relationship).

I will say that knowing that you have it within you to find a relationship which is abusive is a good step towards learning to take steps to keep yourself safe. Knowing your past and getting help in regards to it does help (though finding a kink friendly therapst can take time as I found out - took me 6 years before I found someone to talk to).

Stay strong and you will find that the lifestyle can heal you when you find that person who is right for you (at least that I what I believe).

Take care

Kapital_Dee
09-03-2005, 08:13 AM
It is entirely possible to be healthy and balanced and still have an interest in bdsm. With and without abuse in your past.



Question: Who has never had abuse in the past? Unless you have been in a coma or had the perfect parents, perfect family, went to the perfect school. We all have had some form of abuse some less extreme than others but abuse none the less.

chromedome11
09-05-2005, 06:19 PM
Question: Who has never had abuse in the past? Unless you have been in a coma or had the perfect parents, perfect family, went to the perfect school. We all have had some form of abuse some less extreme than others but abuse none the less.
I disagree. I wasn't abused as a child, and I didn't abuse my kids. While still too common, I think abuse is much less prevalent than you're stating.

lauraarmina
09-12-2005, 06:27 AM
I am sure that my present interests stem from an event that I experienced when I was twelve.I am not an author so please excuse my lack of story telling skills. I was staying at my Aunts house for the summer and one day her daughter,Pam, (who was the same age as me) and I got caught trying to steal sweets from our local shop.We were taken back to my aunts and made to admit to her what we had done. After she had promised the shop-keeper that she would deal with the matter we were sent to our respective rooms. A little while later we were summoned into the lounge and made to stand before her while she berrated us for our actions. At the end of our 'telling-off' she told me that I could either be punished now with Pam or I could wait for her to tell my parents when I went home.......being more scared of my dad than my aunt I chose the former option. Quite calmly she said that she was going to spank our bare bottoms and that we were to get undressed. Although my mind was in a whirl, it was obviously the accpeted punishment in this household because, with the exception of complaining that she didn't want to do it in front of me, a complaint quickly dismissed by her mother, Pam didn't seem shocked by the order.
Although I have a vivid memory of the actual event, the emotional aspects were and still are a blur. I know that I felt embaressed standing naked in front of my cousin and aunt but my arousal at the situation was all too plain to see. Was the arousal the result of my embaressment or was I embaressed at being aroused? All I know is that watching my naked cousin being held over my aunts lap while she had her bottom spanked is the singal most exciting thing I have ever seen. Even when I caught my aunt looking at me with a smirk on her face I still had to keep watching. After Pams spanking was over and she was sent back to her room, my aunt called me toward her and pulled me over her lap. During the spanking she gave me she kept saying how she knew that I had enjoyed seeing Pam nude and what a dirty and naughty boy I was. After my spanking when she told to get up. As I did so she grabbed my penis saying "I suppose you will play with yourself now?" That was it, the moment her hand touched me I came. I could hardly breath. She said nothing......just gave my penis a squeeze and looked at her cum soaked hand. After what seemed an eternity but was probabley only a minute or so, she just smiled and told me to go to bed. The fact that I masburated that night was used by my aunt on a number of occassions as a precursor to similar punishment sessions throughout that summer. Despite my best attempts, I could never draw Pam into a discussion about her feelings on that afternoons events athough I would love to know how she felt.
The strange thing is that it was seeing her get spanked that turned me on the most and still does. Maybe my interest in punishing submissive girls and women is the thought that they will experience the same embaressant and shame that Pam and I felt.......shame at being nude; shame at being punished and shame at being aroused by it all. I would be interested to hear of others first experiences and their reactions to them. [sr@btconnect.com[e-mail]

Prpackaged
10-15-2005, 08:50 PM
There are times when i ask myself the same question.
I was adopted at eight months old and brought into the states by two people I call Mom and Dad. They never told me I was adopted (it finally came out when I was 22) but I think on some level I knew, because I was never treated the way a biological daughter would be treated (I think.) My mother was abusive...the incidents I remember most are the time I was ten and I got into her makeup, and one of her round brushes got tangled in my long hair. She was furious when she came home and found me with her hairbrush in my hair, and because she couldn't get it out, she grabbed the brush and literally dragged me down the hall and down stairs into the kitchen, where she proceeded to cut off all the hair that was caught with a steak knife. Then she took the scissors away that I was trying to even all of my hair off with and made me go to school for the rest of the week with big short and long patches in my hair. It was humiliating. The nuns (I was going to a cathiloc school at the time) were laughing, and so were all my classmates.
And then there was the time I was doing dishes and she came in to check if they were clean, and when she saw scratches on the bottom of one of her pots she went ballistic and chased me around the house waving a meat cleaver and telling me she was going to make me look like the pot. It wasn't even my fault, she found out later she'd made mashed potatoes and the electric blender left the same scratches on the bottom of the second pot that had been in the bottom of the first one. My father was never home. He said he was traveling for his company, and he'd be gone for months on end. only recently, when I hired a private investigator to find him, did I find out that he's now living in Virginia with another woman, has been snce he walked out on my family ten years agao, and his oldest child is now 18. I'm 25. this means that while I was getting beaten up and stuff, he was schmoozing with another woman and having kids with her. The bad part about it is that he's still married to my Mom.
Sorry. Just rambling. I don't have any answers to offer you, except to say that I wondered abut that for a while. Am I enjoying BDSM because it reminds me of my childhood, and did my desire to be humiliated and used stem from those childhood incidents? Do I need to be in an abusive relationship (I was in one out of high school that put me in the hospital before I got out of it) for me to feel like I'm worth something to someone? Eventually, finding no answers to any of those questions, I stopped analyzing and just did what feels good. I'm happily married now to a vanilla man with 2 wonderful baby boys, and I wouldn't change anything about me, because I like who I am. And those experiences I had made me who I am.
I don't know if this helps, but I just wanted you to know I wonder about the same thing you do. You're not alone; especially in this board, there are lots of like-minded people here who understand and are sympathetic, and will help you come to terms with the issues you're fighting with. Hang in there! :)

I think that this is an interesting part of the thread. The original question was about the possibility of abuse being a root cause of a desire to be involved in BDSM. I would think that this is more of a control issue. From what I have read, in a loving BDSM relationship the control lays with the submissive, (think safe word). The part of this post that then stands out would be the facts of adoption. When adopted quite young there is a very strong desire to be in control. We are safest when we control. We control as a sub by allowing or disallowing our dom to act. I would want to ask those who are subs if they feel this strong urge to maintain that control. As a black market baby (bought for $300 at 2 days) I really want to be in control. I do not think that being involved in BDSM stems from abuse as much as it may stem from that need to control or be controled.

Too many random thoughts. Sorry :D

death penguin
10-15-2005, 11:15 PM
The first girl I "hooked up" with in college had a similar complex going on, though not as extreme. She was half Iranian and half Iraqi, with very strict parents that shielded her from everything and had control over everything she did (if she told them we were dating, they would expect me to marry her). She was also breaking up with a guy who she practically worshipped during her teenage years- she met him when she was 16 and he was 27. He had cheated on her numerous times, but she still stayed with him for years- until she got to college.

No big suprise, she turns out to have some serious complexes. In the daytime, she liked being "difficult," and stressed about her work constantly. However, in bed she was extremely submissive- she wanted me to slap her and call her "daddy's little whore" during sex; I could see where she was getting the impulse from. I ended that relationship pretty quickly; I knew that she was used to being dominated in every part of her life, and it felt wrong for me to fuel her complexes.

Just my opinion- I would say that you should enjoy doing what you like, so long as you (and your partner) do it out of love, instead of you just feeling that you are fulfilling a "role" set in early childhood.

whippedcream
11-08-2005, 10:41 PM
The closest I ever came to being abused as a child was by a doctor who insisted on accompanying me into the pee-in-a-cup bathroom and insisted on holding the cup and wiping me (much more than was necessary) despite my telling him that I always did that myself. It grossed me out, but I was embarrassed so I only told my parents I wanted a new doctor because he smelled bad.

However, I've been kinked ever since I can remember. One of my best friends when I was really young was kinked too. We tied up Barbies and played Countess/slave with them. We fast-forwarded Disney movies to the "good parts," like in Sleeping Beauty when the prince is chained up. My parents yelled at us when they discovered our "Wedgie Machine," which if I recall correctly was made from a jump rope, but I didn't know that our games were unusual until I discovered that my other friends all refused to play them. Soo... my own experience has led me to believe that while abuse may play a role in some people's discovery of odd sexuality, other people have just always been that way.

imadom
11-12-2005, 09:53 AM
The sub I used to have (which I mentioned in my bdsm life section) has very low self esteem. She was or so she said, abused by her ex-husband. It got to where she did not seem to think she could find a job so had to prostitute herself at which point I really started to have enough. I don't know if that has anything to do with what makes a sub a sub, but I guess there's all kinds of reasons. We can't just get rid of it. As a dom, I have tried that myself because of the hurt it has caused me. I can do vanilla but not for long. It's like swiming against the tide. Be yourself.
IMADOM

FurryFury
12-31-2005, 05:04 PM
Here is your answer.

You enjoy BDSM because you are hot wired that way. It's not a good thing or a bad thing it's just the way you and many others are.

Not everyone who has been abused are into BDSM.

Not everyone who have never been abused are 'nilla.

We are what we are. We would all do well to accept ourselves as unconditionally as humanly possible, the way some hope to accept a Master, IMO.

*hugs*

Good luck,

Fury

Dr Mabeuse
01-01-2006, 11:42 AM
One thing I've learned is that there are as many ways of doing and experiencing BDSM as there are people doing it. My opinions, therefore, apply only to myself--my own desires and experiences.

BDSM had nothing to do with abuse to me. There can be pain involved, but it's the pain of intense emotion and desire, not the kind of pain caused by abuse and contempt. I've never had anything but the deepest respect for the subs I've been with, and they always know that. Submission means nothing to me unless the person has something worth giving up. I don;t deal with masochists.

That being said, I know there are subs who are in it for the raw pain, humiliation, and punishment, just as there are Doms who practice BDSM out of a basic hatred and rage for the opposite sex or for anyone who might dare to love them. Those are deep and dangerous waters, though, and I stay out of them.

The original question amounts to asking, "What causes someone to enjoy BDSM?" and that's a very difficult question. I had all sorts of theories at one time, but now I tend to agree with those who say it's something we're born with, hard-wired into us. It seems to be some sort of primal mating beahvior. Some of us have a need to act out these deep feelings of the male as aggressor and controller and the female as submissive and controlled, and we experience such play as intensely erotic. That seems to be true for me and the subs I know, and that's about all I can say about it.

mali
01-04-2006, 03:34 AM
I've always had a kink, and not really been abused in my life by any control/parental figures... though my life was a bit odd...
I grew up in the enviroment where my mother, her sisters and my grandmother had all been brought up to find a good, rich husband and marry well. My mother and her sisters broke out of this a little and married who they wished, so it didn't really affect me too much. I went to an all-girls schools, and was only ever allowed to go to private school for girls until my final 2 years because then a mixed (still private) school was needed so I would find a boyfriend amongst the boys there.
It was all about representing our family from a young age, my little brother must have worn more black-tie suits than many would in their life by the time he was 10.
I learnt to walk in heels at 11 and still have so many ball-gowns and dresses, going to a party where you had to dress up was a monthly experience for me from being very little.
I personally loved it really, the trips to London for clothes, the parties, opera's..... then as I got older i realized how strange a life it was. It was fun, but I knew it was a life I couldn't possibly continue always, I wanted to be a vet, but everyone said I should go into fashion/graphic design..... People back-stabbed and you couldn't trust anyone, no one was very nice but my school friends who weren't a part of the life i had, i realized that it wasn't a nice life to be living..

I still dress up and go shopping, but when i moved out i change a lot and liked life better, the people were less frivolous and more normal and kinder..... hmm, i sound quite old reading that post :p but i'm only 22

Lavender
01-15-2006, 09:56 AM
I myself was raped when i was 14 my an freind, that was 6 years ago, since then i have an thing bout being forced to have sex while outside,and insdie for that matter, my either my bf or a stranger, in a VERY sick way i think some part of my brain enjoyed it my god know why at the time i was petrifed but now im not, ether theres somthing wrong with both of us or it mybe slightly normal dont know?

cheeseburger
01-29-2006, 10:34 AM
I have a slightly different opinion on a lot thats been said here, so I'll try to explain myself as best as I can.

I am a male, and I have, on occasion, dreamed of forcing a female to 'submit' to me, completely. It never got past the dreaming stage, and now when I look back on that time I can easily understand where my emotions were coming from. As an adolescent, I was always very shy. I had trouble talking with my equals, and even though I had a large group of friends and was 'popular', I still felt uneasy around people, and probably got those friends by simply doing whatever they asked. I was never physicaly abused, probably the worst i experienced was taunting - nothing in comparison.

Contrast that with my fantasies. I dreamed of being an all powerfull, evil man that would keep another and force her to do my will. I was simply trying to be what I couldn't (at the time) be in real life. Add in the fact that I was only a kid discovering sex, and you can easily see where my fantasy comes from.

Later, when i entered college and had normal relationships with friends, and partners, all of my hidden fantasies and aggression melted and I only look back on that time.

Now that you understand my background, and as you know i never experienced any abuse, i can only guess at what it must be like.

When people who were abused in their past feel a need to be abused in real life - if only in BDSM or a D/s relationship - I feel that you are simply living with the same mental frame you put yourself into, back when you were being abused.

At a youg age, people are given their core values by their parents. Usually, kids are told over and over that stealing is Bad, that hurting other people is Bad, and a long time ago, in America, people in the south were told that African-Americans weren't on the same level as other people. My point is that if someone is raised in a certain environment, you can instill both (what we now see as) 'correct' and 'incorrect' instincts in someone. Some of that process is obvious - the laws against stealing, hurting, etc. A lot of it is more subtle, and takes place without you even knowing it.

When i refer to these instincts, I'm not talking about annoying parents - in most cases people rebel against those values. I mean the really basic ideas no one questions, for example the unspoken rule that everyone must wear clothing. Probably more true some decades back, but even now people get an irrational feeling of shame when you see them naked. Are they ashamed at their body? They know, as intelligent people that everyone has essentially the same body parts, but still, they feel that sense of shame and try to cover it up.

If you accept the premise that people are instilled with these subconsious 'values' at a younger age, re-examine the life of someone abused at an early age. They were clearly subjected to vastly different stimuli, so their 'values' are clearly different. In my opinion, they picked up the notion that what was happening to them was how it shouuld be. It was right to them, when clearly it was very wrong.

Fast forward in that persons life, and you have a person that still has that subconsious feeling that they should be abused, because thats how it was for them X years back. It isn't a big leap from feeling that certain actions are 'right' to feeling that they are good, and finally pleasurable.

People have trouble letting go of these subconsious 'values'. Again, look at the very obvious slavery problem America had, back in the 50's. You had older people - raised with the 'value' that African-American's were sub-human, and they had trouble re-learning what they were taught when they were little.

So, my advice to anyone with a history of abuse, and now enjoys it; look back at your life. Were you 'taught' to tolerate the abuse? Were you 'taught' to accept that submissive position? Did it happen long enough for it to, essentially, indocrinate you with a feeling of submission?

I personally think that every person also feels a desire to be happy. On a primal level, you want to be happy now. For evolutionary reasons, the act of reproducing, or sex, makes everyone happy. This is an instinct everything has, the instinct for both you, and your species, to live on. For that reason, when you do have sex, you feel 'good'. It is the easiest way for a person to feel happy, regardless of who they are and what they are doing. Add to that a subconsious feeling (of submission) - that is more prominent when the more critical part of your brain is too busy enjoying the moment - and you have a desire to be dominated, sexually. When you look back at your first such experience, you probably want more, and it snowballs from there.

There may be nothing wrong with it. Everyone is entitled to their own way of feeling happy. I think the problem with it becomes when it turns into an obsession, when it becomes all you think about. That hedonistic tendency is displayed in people who find other means of feeling 'happy', for example, obssesive gambling.

I don't claim to know the meaning of life; I don't know 'why' people exist, but I do know that escapism, crudely, is bad. You should not become obsessed with any one thing. Trying to extend a certain pleasure by shaping your entire life around it is not a good idea.

So to answer the original question, of "is it O.K. to feel submissive, and to take pleasure from it" really can't be answered by another. I feel that as long as you understand why you feel that way, you need to decide for yourself if you are ok with it. But again, just a caution: don't become obsessed. I may enjoy gambling, or playing games, but I wouldn't want to center my life around that. To me, there are other things in life.

To summarize what I have tried to explain, if you understand how, and why you have certain feelings, you can make your own educated decision about them. To try and put aside any second thoughts is escaping; to shut them out will only make them gnaw at you. I hope that this may have helped someone understand where their feelings came from.