Sub vs. Stock?

[orchidsoul]

Firstly, pardon me if this question is posed in the incorrect category and also if I missed a previous thread asking this same question. I have found other threads that touch upon, but not specifically this question.

I absolutely do not intend this as braisenly or presumptious as it may sound... I just don't know how else to ask this question.

When I am using these terms of "programming", they are used under the context of subconsciously, no mal intent, etc. And the submissive is a submissive, never coersion, non-consent, etc.

My question is where is the fine line drawn between an individual being a submissive and potentially being conditioned? I'm just wondering how one keeps their feelings and emotions separated, while being submissive, from being trained to serve, behave, and oblige. Classic conditioning depicts to us the outcome of repeated behavioral practices. Is that precisely the emotional balancing act of it all? How does one prevent themselves from subconsciously being "turned"? Has anyone ever felt that any of this happened to them in a relationship? How does one prevent the activities from crossing that line?

Again, I apologize for the terminology of this question, but I am trying to understand certain aspects as I am trying to figure out what happened to my mind a little while back. And by all means, they are mostly stream of consciousness questions, so no obligation to answer them all! Just trying to gain an understanding.

It would be great to hear opinions from both dom and sub sides.
Thank you in advance for any and all opinions.

~orchid

[Barton]

I believe that since a sub is willingly giving control to the dom the "Stoclholm" syndrom would not apply. There is a huge difference between starting out as a willing participant and being put in a situation where you have no choice at all.

In BDSM the sub should be a willing participant, getting pleasure by surrendering control. The opposite, whether kidnaping or abuse, presents nothing but forced control inposed by another. A totally different matter entirely.

[GaryWilcox]

I believe that since a sub is willingly giving control to the dom the "Stoclholm" syndrom would not apply. There is a huge difference between starting out as a willing participant and being put in a situation where you have no choice at all. Exactly. The sub enters the relationship wanting to have someone Dom him/her in D/s. Stockholm is more about the trust you are forced to place in someone who controls your fate (not by choice, by force).

[ProjectEuropa]

It would be great to hear opinions from both dom and sub sides.
Thank you in advance for any and all opinions.

~orchid

This is a huge question and one could write a thesis set around this question. But it touches on many things which leads me to believe consent cannot be isolated from honesty and integrity. I believe our actions based upon our desires set a pattern of behaviour that can prove difficult to break. Therefore it is incumbent upon us, whether a dom or a sub, to be completely honest with our partners about our motives behind our actions and not to mislead eachother for some short term gratification or because it is easier not to say something.

For me BDSM is a way to heightened sensibility and erotic experience. As one pushes closer to the edge it is essential that both participants share all the information, be it doubts or sensing one's feelings are changing. It's better to know where the compass is pointing and to avoid a crash, rather than crashing because eachother had different expectations.

[orchidsoul]

I believe that since a sub is willingly giving control to the dom the "Stoclholm" syndrom would not apply. There is a huge difference between starting out as a willing participant and being put in a situation where you have no choice at all.

In BDSM the sub should be a willing participant, getting pleasure by surrendering control. The opposite, whether kidnaping or abuse, presents nothing but forced control inposed by another. A totally different matter entirely.

I totally agree, I just don't know what to call what I am referring to. Maybe just overall conditioning is what I am wondering about? That was why I expressed at the beginning about a non-coersed submissive. A submissive who enjoys giving up control. Maybe it's just having a totally strong mental self, being able to give up control, yet having complete control over your mind? It seems like such a fine line that could inadvertently become crossed without anyone intentionally trying. Can what starts out as consentual go too far without anyone realizing it until it's too late?


But it touches on many things which leads me to believe consent cannot be isolated from honesty and integrity. I believe our actions based upon our desires set a pattern of behaviour that can prove difficult to break. Therefore it is incumbent upon us, whether a dom or a sub, to be completely honest with our partners about our motives behind our actions and not to mislead eachother for some short term gratification or because it is easier not to say something.

This is very helpful. Thank you PE. Is this an aspect (preventing any type of inadvertent conditioning) of BDSM that always needs to be kept at the conscious forefront of everyones, whether dom or sub, mind?

Sorry for all the questions and misuse of words... again, I just don't know how to fully convey what I am asking. Hope this helped explain a little further.

~orchid

[ProjectEuropa]

This is very helpful. Thank you PE. Is this an aspect (preventing any type of inadvertent conditioning) of BDSM that always needs to be kept at the conscious forefront of everyones, whether dom or sub, mind?

Sorry for all the questions and misuse of words... again, I just don't know how to fully convey what I am asking. Hope this helped explain a little further.

~orchid

Though I know we are not discussing crimes here, we are discussing human nature which is very complex. When I was worked in the Probation Service I had access to case histories on all sorts of crimes, many around consent but also on a much broader field. Its a privelege to see behind the headlines of a crime and get some perspective on people's motivations. I suspect we are discussing consent here. Quite often motivations for commiting crimes around consent are not conscious, patterns of behaviour have usually been established well before any crime has been commited. When the behavoural patterns are forming it would be curlish to say one of the party is right or other wrong, though by the time a case gets to court it is usually one party fighting to be proved not guilty and it's not necessarily the man. Often behavoural patterns are not prevented from starting, out of well meaning intentions, such as not wanting to hurt the other person's feeling or finding difficulty in being honest or feeling an inability to put into words one's concerns. By the time the behavoural pattern has formed it is difficult for both parties to stand outside themselves and take an objective view of their relationship. Habits have formed, one of the party might be giving the other the benefit of the doubt to a particular type of behaviour and the other assuming this is consent. Once the party that has been giving the benefit of the doubt decides s/he doesn't want to deal with such behaviour, the other party might not even hear the other party protests because s/he has not changed his/her behaviour. This is why so many people end up in custody bewildered as to how they got there. I'm not just talking about uneducated and unsophisticated people. It's quite surprising how many highly intelligent people do not recognize their behaviour until it is too late. Habits were formed and people become fixated. One thing for sure is that when you look back over a case history you see behaviour was established very early in the run up to an event. Most could have been predicted if a third party had access to the relevant information. It's pointless saying there was no consent after the event, it helps no one.

It's a little like getting into a car with a friend that has been drinking, you've done it many times before and he drives OK, you just try to behave towards him in a way to keep him driving safelty but on one occasion the he has edged up to 100 mph it is too late to say stop, the mere action of him standing on the brakes will cause an accident. Far better not to humour him in the first place and refuse to get into the car or catch a taxi instead. It's irrelevent that you know him well and that he doesn't mean you any harm, the pattern has been established. You can substitute the male driver for a female driver. Therefore being honest, even if hurting someone's feelings is paramount. It stops behavoural patterns forming.

[slavelucy]

i've been meaning to reply to this thread for a couple of days now, i think you raise a REALLY good point, orchidsoul. There's two issues here, as i see it...firstly...


My question is where is the fine line drawn between an individual being a submissive and potentially being conditioned?

To be completely honest (and perhaps slightly 'down' on DS), i think that line is finer than we'd like to admit, it's all well and good us nattering about the theory of BDSM, but the fact remains that one person DOES largely submit to the wishes of another, and in doing so, becomes increasingly molded in someone elses image. i think you put it really well when you refer to it as being 'turned'. However, people are, of course, frequently molded even in vanilla relationsips, sometimes rather manipulatively, whereas i think a (good) dominant would only seek to change someone insofar as it served a purpose for the sub as well as themselves..whereas when it happens by 'acciden't, it's much more haphazard (and worrying). i also think it REALLY helps if the dominant encourages an atmosphere wherein a sub is free to question why he/she would like him/her to change any part of themselves or their every day behaviour...this encourages the submissive to reflect on their OWN life and their OWN behaviour, which is how it should be.

So, you say:

Has anyone ever felt that any of this happened to them in a relationship? How does one prevent the activities from crossing that line?

Has anyone ever felt this happening? Yes, i have, which is what struck me when i first read this thread. How does one prevent the activities from crossing that line? By trusting that you have a dominant who won't take advantage of a position of power and by being encouraged to understand and reflect on why certain things/changes are asked of you.

When i did my dissertation, i studied indoctrination in some detail, to become brainwashed or conditioned requires a complete LACK of thought on the part of the person who suffers it....which should be the opposite to what happens with regards to any serious changes encouraged in a person in the course of submission.


Anyway, to move on to the second point, add to that fine line the fact that humans are not machines, they are emotional beings, and it's a VERY tricky equation.

Indeed, as you put it:


I'm just wondering how one keeps their feelings and emotions separated, while being submissive, from being trained to serve, behave, and oblige.

Frankly, i don't think this IS possible. Much as i'm sure many of those who adhere to the classical school of BDSM would disagree, i seriously question the possibility of developing no emotional attachment. i am not for one minute suggesting this necessarily goes as far as love, but i find it something of an anomaly to say that a sub should essentially care less about doing things carefully and with consideration for someone he/she has little regard for. To that, one could say 'well he/she could respect him, in the way one respects a teacher', which is absolutely true..but i think the often personal nature of DS training dictates that it's entirely possible to develop feelings that one would likely not develop for a tutor teaching you maths, so, yes, i think it's an issue that bears a considerable amount of watching.


Again, I apologize for the terminology of this question, but I am trying to understand certain aspects as I am trying to figure out what happened to my mind a little while back.

No way should you apologise, it's a great thread! And, if you want to talk about it in any more personal detail (from either your or my perspective), feel free to PM me. :)

sl

[Lord Douche]

Thread moved to Knowledge Base

LD

[orchidsoul]

ProjectEuropa-
You are absolutely correct that this is about human nature. And it is about behavioral patterns forming. Very enlightening example you gave. Thank you as it only helps me to understand even more.

Slavelucy-
Thank you so much for your insight.


I think that line is finer than we'd like to admit, it's all well and good us nattering about the theory of BDSM, but the fact remains that one person DOES largely submit to the wishes of another, and in doing so, becomes increasingly molded in someone elses image.

Exactly.



However, people are, of course, frequently molded even in vanilla relationsips, sometimes rather manipulatively, whereas i think a (good) dominant would only seek to change someone insofar as it served a purpose for the sub as well as themselves..whereas when it happens by 'acciden't, it's much more haphazard (and worrying).

Very true. In any relationship really (friendships, lovers, family, work) behavioral patterns become established. We tend to adapt towards a specific person and behave accordingly. Sometimes, it's even just based on developed patterns with those people. Which is why I also raised this question. Behavioral patterns develop in many relationships, but couldn't it be more harmful in a d/s relationship due to the innate nature of the relationship?



How does one prevent the activities from crossing that line? By trusting that you have a dominant who won't take advantage of a position of power and by being encouraged to understand and reflect on why certain things/changes are asked of you.

But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Obviously in a healthy relationship as you describe above one does not expect any of this to happen, but could it regardless?



No way should you apologise, it's a great thread! And, if you want to talk about it in any more personal detail (from either your or my perspective), feel free to PM me. :)

sl

I'm glad you found the question/thread interesting. I'm suspect that it's possibly a scary question since I haven't heard from too many people and it was not intended to be scary or presumptious. IMHO, a D/s relationship is so unbelievably amazing because of the trust, intensity and personal nature. Which is why I was curious if this is more apt to occur, especially since behavior modification can be a part of this type of relationship.
Thank you for the offer. I will probably take you up on that Lucy!


Maybe what you guys are telling me is that, whether subconsciously or consciously, BDSM'ers tend to be more cognitive of preventing this from happening through open lines of communication?

And again... sorry for including so many questions! It's more my stream of consciousness "thinking out loud" to try and understand.



Hmm... I think PE is correct when he stated a thesis could be written on this topic!

Thank you both for your helpful input.

~orchidsoul

[slavelucy]

Hiya OS,


Behavioral patterns develop in many relationships, but couldn't it be more harmful in a d/s relationship due to the innate nature of the relationship?

No, i don't think so. The reason i don't think so is because i think to say that ANY change or learning is bad is like saying that teaching is bad, and to take that to the nth degree would be to say that no one should go to school or have any social eduction whatsoever for fear of indoctrination. Further, In a DS relationship, i think the very nature of it makes it LESS likely to be harmful, as the change is neither manipulative or subversive, quite the opposite in fact; a sub goes into a relationship hoping a dominant will help him/her grow and offer them guidance when necessary, but will ALWAYS encourage them to think for themselves...in a vanilla relationship, people often drift into it, believing they will remain themselves and come out of it as different people, not necessarily worst, but i'm of the view that knowledge and understanding of a situation always makes it less likely to have unwanted side effects.


But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Obviously in a healthy relationship as you describe above one does not expect any of this to happen, but could it regardless?

But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Fuck, but that's a good question! Hopefully via introspection and self-analysis, but, yes i think it could happen, unfortunately it remains one of the potenial pitfulls of DS.


IMHO, a D/s relationship is so unbelievably amazing because of the trust, intensity and personal nature. Which is why I was curious if this is more apt to occur, especially since behavior modification can be a part of this type of relationship.

i think it basically IS apt to occur, since it's almost part of the 'point' of the relationship, but that's not to presume that it is necessarily a pejorative, in fact i'd say the trust, intensity and personal nature to which you refer possibly go some way to ensuring it isn't negative, but positive and fulfilling. This goes back to the teaching analogy i used earlier, there's nothing to say that ALL change is a bad thing, certainly we don't consider it a bad thing when people grow and learn through education.


Maybe what you guys are telling me is that, whether subconsciously or consciously, BDSM'ers tend to be more cognitive of preventing this from happening through open lines of communication?

Possibly, yes, there is NO room for verbally softening or fudging a worry or concern or hoping a nagging doubt will just go away, in BDSM. The rot sets in from there, IMO.

sl

[Wontworry]

But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Obviously in a healthy relationship as you describe above one does not expect any of this to happen, but could it regardless?
By having a relationship which includes a lot of discussion both in and out of a scene. This comes back to the relationship being 'healthy' but discussion (and acting on that discussion) is essential to ensure that the submissive is encouraged/led/taught to be changed in the 'right' way for that relationship.

If this doesn't happen then surely the submissive is trusting to luck.

[Barton]

Being able to talk is very important. Questions must be asked of all parties, and answers must be given for things to be safe and enjoyable.

[orchidsoul]

Further, In a DS relationship, i think the very nature of it makes it LESS likely to be harmful, as the change is neither manipulative or subversive, quite the opposite in fact; a sub goes into a relationship hoping a dominant will help him/her grow and offer them guidance when necessary, but will ALWAYS encourage them to think for themselves...in a vanilla relationship, people often drift into it, believing they will remain themselves and come out of it as different people, not necessarily worst, but i'm of the view that knowledge and understanding of a situation always makes it less likely to have unwanted side effects.

That's a great answer Lucy. When I read this paragraph, it suddenly made all the sense in the world. And I think you are completely right about maybe more inadvertently occuring in a vanilla relationship since the partners are technically not intentionally molding their partners, but often it occurs. Again- people falling into behavioral patterns instinctively.
Thank you so much!




But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Fuck, but that's a good question!

ROFLMAO!!!


Possibly, yes, there is NO room for verbally softening or fudging a worry or concern or hoping a nagging doubt will just go away, in BDSM. The rot sets in from there, IMO.


And this is why I am so attracted to D/s relationships. The level they delve to, the unbelievable level of communication and, more importantly, listening.
It, aside from all the sexual elements, is almost the greatest excercise a human being can go through to understand themselves and others.


...discussion (and acting on that discussion) is essential to ensure that the submissive is encouraged/led/taught to be changed in the 'right' way for that relationship.

Again, makes perfect sense. Every one is aware of what's occuring as opposed to our other "normal" relationships where, aside from people manipulating, it generally occurs subconsciously. It's also clear why Lucy and yourself are raging love and hormones together!


ProjectEuropa, Wontworry, and Barton all emphasized the need for communication and Lucy, you helped me understand how that communication manifests itself positively. Thank you all for helping me understand.

~orchidsoul

[slavelucy]

That's a great answer Lucy. When I read this paragraph, it suddenly made all the sense in the world.

*big smile* Great! Communicating this stuff can be quite difficult, so i'm pleased it made sense.



And I think you are completely right about maybe more inadvertently occuring in a vanilla relationship since the partners are technically not intentionally molding their partners, but often it occurs. Again- people falling into behavioral patterns instinctively.
Thank you so much!

You're welcome! i am REALLY happy to have slightly allayed what is clearly (and justifiably) a serious concern for you. And, again, thank YOU for bringing the issue up, it's one that lies very close to my heart on a variety of levels and i've enjoyed clarifying a few things in my own mind.

sl x

[Donatien]

. ..... i think to say that ANY change or learning is bad is like saying that teaching is bad, and to take that to the nth degree would be to say that no one should go to school or have any social eduction whatsoever for fear of indoctrination....

i'm of the view that knowledge and understanding of a situation always makes it less likely to have unwanted side effects.
But how does even the dominant prevent themselves from inadvertantly crossing that line? Fuck, but that's a good question! Hopefully via introspection and self-analysis, but, yes i think it could happen, unfortunately it remains one of the potential pitfalls of DS.

Thank YOU for bringing the issue up, it's one that lies very close to my heart on a variety of levels and i've enjoyed clarifying a few things in my own mind
sl x
As it is to mine Lucy, and also related to other threads on

“ Very worried that current bdsm learnings may arise out of past abuse”:-

and to one on “Abused “

to which I contributed a long and hard worked on post laying out how past abuse leaves a number of sequelae ( sequela=morbid affection occurring as the result of a previous illness) that together come into the category of post traumatic stress disorder, and which result in a number of habits of mind developed as a defence to minimize the psychic distress of the past trauma, albeit only partially.
I had been considering a follow up post on measures towards successful recovery, but rearrangement of the thread left it on the shelf as it were.
(2-22-05 post no 21)
http://bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2878

It seems to me that in all these issues, it is vitally important to distinguish the difference between INFLUENCE and MANIPULATION., and to realize that though the techniques employed in both are similar, They differ in the nature of motivation of the participants, the degree of consent in the recipient, and perhaps therefore in the intensity of use of such techniques arising from those differences.

In particular INFLUENCE seeks a win /win situation for both parties ,
whereas MANIPULATION a win/ favouring the dominant, in which in a bdsm situation the submissive's gift of herself is exploited and abused.


In my opinion Lucy is wise to have drawn attention to the fine line that can exist between these two. In some more extreme bdsm situations, where a submissive , possibly as a consequence of past abusive treatment , resulting in extreme desires for submission/ humiliation that might be regarded as pathological, on grounds of their extremity and compulsive/addictive nature embarks on a bdsm relationship , with a dom, lacking in the self discipline and maturity of mind to spot this, or being slightly psychopathic themselves is only too happy to exploit the gift that the sub offers them to the Nth degree


In Psychiatry there is a condition called “Folie a deux” where it appears that two people living in one house are both Psychotic and share the same system of delusions . Yet in hospital, when they are separated it gradually becomes apparent that whilst the dominant partner is indeed Psychotic the weaker and more pliant one is quit sane but has out of love, and to keep the peace undergone a Stockholm type of mind/control , brainwashing , as a result of which they have adopted the others delusions genuinely believing them, until away from that situation and separate from it normality of thought resumes.


That must be an indication of potential risks ,(for subs at any rate) that just might complicate a few intense, 24/7,extreme Bdsm relationships;

and also provide an interesting question for us all as to whether, such a development in a Bdsm relationship could be acceptable if a desired result by both parties?

[orchidsoul]

You're welcome! i am REALLY happy to have slightly allayed what is clearly (and justifiably) a serious concern for you. And, again, thank YOU for bringing the issue up, it's one that lies very close to my heart on a variety of levels and i've enjoyed clarifying a few things in my own mind.

sl x

I'm so glad it helped you out too sweetie. You always amaze me with your insight and how you work through thought processes.


it is vitally important to distinguish the difference between INFLUENCE and MANIPULATION

Great way of separating the difference Donatien.


where a submissive...on grounds of their extremity and compulsive/addictive nature embarks on a bdsm relationship , with a dom, lacking in the self discipline and maturity of mind to spot this

absolutely. It's very hard. I did not officially discover D/s from traumatic past abuse (although I was always into kinky sex- must be the Scorpio in me!!). It was after I recently had a relationship with someone that delved into the mind aspect. What I was willing to do, the lengths I would have gone through, and the love I felt was all indescribable. And I never met him. But I do believe there was a small amount of unintentional (I do stress unintentional) mental abuse to some degree. This is what got me to thinking about this whole subject. What part of me ALLOWED myself to sink into something so unattainable? And I think it goes back to the behavioral patterns we create with other individuals. The difference that Lucy has stressed is how there is positive and negative, but also how very, very important it is for a submissive to keep his/her strength in helping prevent the negative outcome. It is such a fine line. And even in cases where no mal intent is present. Apparently it needs to just remain very cognitive (ideally on both dom/sub side)in order to prevent any adverse outcomes. If not present on both sides, the outcome could be dangerous for one of the participants. Your insight was very much appreciated Donatien. Thank you.


In Psychiatry there is a condition called “Folie a deux” where it appears that two people living in one house are both Psychotic and share the same system of delusions . Yet in hospital, when they are separated it gradually becomes apparent that whilst the dominant partner is indeed Psychotic the weaker and more pliant one is quit sane but has out of love, and to keep the peace undergone a Stockholm type of mind/control , brainwashing , as a result of which they have adopted the others delusions genuinely believing them, until away from that situation and separate from it normality of thought resumes.

Soooo interesting. This for sure confirms basic classical conditioning.

[ProjectEuropa]

What I was willing to do, the lengths I would have gone through, and the love I felt was all indescribable. And I never met him. But I do believe there was a small amount of unintentional (I do stress unintentional) mental abuse to some degree.

You seem to be suggesting the concerns you felt are because of an online relationship. Am I right in thinking that and if so do you feel able to expand a little why it caused you so many concerns?

I am interested in this aspect. If you feel unable to expand, don't worry about it.

[orchidsoul]

You seem to be suggesting the concerns you felt are because of an online relationship. Am I right in thinking that and if so do you feel able to expand a little why it caused you so many concerns?

I am interested in this aspect. If you feel unable to expand, don't worry about it.

Yes the concerns/question stemmed from an online relationship (which didn't begin under a D/s context). That's my only real experience with D/s in the truly mental aspect.

I don't mind expanding a little. I would say it caused me concerns because if I could end up like this through an online relationship, couldn't it be more severe in real life? But, I truly believe part of it was CAUSED by it being an online relationship and not being able to attain it in real life. Frustration, love, and desire turned me into a completely weak and tragic person. It left me severely confused and hurt. Also wondering if I could truly ever handle a relationship that delves into this level- even though that's the part that I am so utterly attracted by. Not to mention, I was just discovering this whole arena of a relationship.

I hope that helped explain a little better. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate or you are welcome to PM me any time.

[ProjectEuropa]

Yes the concerns/question stemmed from an online relationship (which didn't begin under a D/s context).

I don't mind expanding a little. I would say it caused me concerns because if I could end up like this through an online relationship, couldn't it be more severe in real life? But, I truly believe part of it was CAUSED by it being an online relationship and not being able to attain it in real life. Frustration, love, and desire turned me into a completely weak and tragic person.

The reason I asked is that I had an extended online relationship which I've spent some time trying to come to terms with. I recognize everything you say.

From a distance I've been wondering if it was all a fantasy I invented in my head or whether my experience had a foundation in reality. No doubt for her she finished it because she thought she knew me but as for me, I'm convinced more than ever I did not know her. No doubt the reality is somewhere in between but we reinforce our own prejudices.

I will PM you but I will give things a little thought first.

Thanks for the reply.

[Eclipsed]

I just wanted to take the time and thank everyone who has posted in this thread as well as orchidsoul for beginning it. The subject of manipulation and influence came up in a conversation between myself and several of my friends and if this subject comes up again, i'm going to be sure to use this thread link for further opinions and information. What i've gleaned from all this is that communication is an integral part of D/s dynamics and if missing, the relationship isn't given a sturdy foundation and therefore, more likely to fail. It's also helped me to look at and examine my own relationships, both D/s and everyday... and my reactions to these relationships. It's also made me realize that the conversation i've been pushing away for a while needs to be had soon :o.

SL, eloquent as always and as i've told Wontworry before, he's a very lucky man. :)

[slavelucy]

SL, eloquent as always and as i've told Wontworry before, he's a very lucky man. :)

*smiles* Thank you Eclipsed. And, yeah, WW mentioned you two had spoken in the chat room...i was all blushy when he told me what you'd said!

Good luck with that forthcoming conversation hun, these kinda discussions can make one look at various relationships etc and facing them can be hard..sending out lots of positive vibes for you. *hugs*

sl x

[orchidsoul]

I just wanted to take the time and thank everyone who has posted in this thread as well as orchidsoul for beginning it. The subject of manipulation and influence came up in a conversation between myself and several of my friends and if this subject comes up again, i'm going to be sure to use this thread link for further opinions and information.


Thank you Eclipsed. I am sooo happy that you found it beneficial as well. I also learned the exact same thing as you. Good luck with your conversation too! I hope the outcome is as you desire.

~os