Sex, Sex, Sex... It's All About the Sex

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Well, I'm here to tell you it's not.

There is a difference between kinky sex and BDSM. Certainly, kinky sex involves some BDSM elements, like bondage, sadism, and/or masochism, but as a general rule DS, that is domination and submission, have very little to do with sex.

Domination and submission involve mostly mental processes, and very few physical ones. Sure, a dominant can instruct his submissive to do something sexual or something humiliating and she likely will do it, but it is only the instruction and the compliance that are the DS elements. The results can be any of a variety of kinks, or even another act of submission.

DS isn't about being sexual necessarily; it's more about being mental. An instruction is given, or a task is planned, and then the instruction is carried out or the task performed. Those are elements of DS. A person that takes the time to create standards, rules, discipline, and routines is being dominant. A person that enjoys following the rules and accepting the discipline, living within the standards, and performing the routines because it will give that person's partner pleasure and will reflect well on that partner is being submissive.

Some elements of DS can be sexual, yes. A dominant firmly ordering his submissive to give him a blowjob and her complying are certainly dominant and submissive acts, but they are not the only dominant and submissive acts. A submissive that is ordered to fetch her dominant a cup of coffee, to serve it to the dominant on her knees, and then to allow him to use her back as his coffee table is performing a deeper, more mental, and far more subtle form of submission than the submissive that is simply ordered to suck her master. More goes on in the brain when one is made to fetch a hot beverage, not spill it while getting to one's knees, and maintaning the discipline required to hold still enough and the back straight enough not to slosh hot coffee on oneself than does when one is ordered to simply kneel and bob.

DS can occur on many different levels. The act of fetching a cup of coffee, for instance, may seem very mundane to most observers, but to a truly submissive person, it can be a profound act of thought. How does master like his coffee? Is master upstairs? If so I will have to be extra careful not to spill. Will master ask me to serve as his table as well, or will he have another task for me afterward? It is the mark of a challenging and rewarding relationship that the dominant and submissive both can act more in their heads than with their bodies.

After all, what is the benefit to the submissive that has been assigned a domestic chore? Mopping the floor or scrubbing the toilet are mundane, menial tasks, but the submissive will perform them, not so much for the submissive's benefit, but to make things easier for the dominant.

These kinds of activities and actions make up the true nature of a DS relationship; tasks and chores that challenge and use the brain, not the body. Any girl can perform oral sex on her boyfriend, but it takes a truly dedicated submissive with a keen adherance to discipline to serve as a coffee table while master drinks his coffee and reads the newspaper in the morning.

If you want to have a better DS relationship, then think about it.

[e.b.]

While I agree that the sex is the overriding factor for many, I will still argue that the domestic servitude and those little things done to please a dom are very important to many in the scene. I don't think most people here that are serious about bdsm are under the impression it's just about sex. Personally, I gain a lot from both...and think that sexual servitude and domestic servitude are equally challenging, just in different ways.

The whole creation of the term bdsm implies this connection of different elements. If a couple is primarily into D/s or SM, they'll use those terms. However, as this is a bdsm forum, it has to be expected that all parts of the equation will be discussed: bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, and sadomasochism.

Hence, all types of servitude and choices in training styles should be respected IMO. I'm also not trying to be inflammatory; I'm just suggesting that the domestic and sexual servitude are two parts of the same equation for many. However, I believe that purely domestic or purely sexual servitude are equally worthy as long as it makes the dom and sub happy and fulfilled.

eb

[slavelucy]

Oh, i completely agree, DS is 99% mental, indeed why would someone CARE if they did something to someone elses satisfaction unless they were in the right place mentally and emotionally. Having said that, whilst it's certainly not about 'sex, sex, sex' i think it IS about passion and fulfillment, both feelings and states of mind which can often blur with arrousal.

The only thing i'd disagree on is the following:


Some elements of DS can be sexual, yes. A dominant firmly ordering his submissive to give him a blowjob and her complying are certainly dominant and submissive acts, but they are not the only dominant and submissive acts. A submissive that is ordered to fetch her dominant a cup of coffee, to serve it to the dominant on her knees, and then to allow him to use her back as his coffee table is performing a deeper, more mental, and far more subtle form of submission

With the very greatest of respect, says who? You? Surely it depends on the submissive? Some subs really don't like giving head and hence to do so in a thoughtful, completely selfless way is as beautiful (or, to use your terms effecting her deeply, in a mental sense) as someone delicately and thoughtfully serving you a drink.


More goes on in the brain when one is made to fetch a hot beverage, not spill it while getting to one's knees, and maintaning the discipline required to hold still enough and the back straight enough not to slosh hot coffee on oneself than does when one is ordered to simply kneel and bob.

Pfffft! Whaaat? How do YOU know what goes in in the brain when sucking someone as compared to making a cup of coffee and serving it artistically? No offense TG, but why don't you learn to give the perfect BJ and then say that! :p

As i said, i agree with the theory of what you say, but i always believe one's on dodgy ground when it comes to presuming how people feel.

Btw, i'm sure there was another thread somewhere about sex and BDSM...i remember it turning into quite an interesting discussion. i'll have a look for it. :)

sl

Ah, found that other thread on the same subject, it's a good one, lots of different views etc (then again, it's one of Nikka's so it's bound to be):

The place of sex in a D/s-bdsm relationship (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961&)

[Finding_Fantasy]

Pfffft! Whaaat? How do YOU know what goes in in the brain when sucking someone as compared to making a cup of coffee and serving it artistically? No offense TG, but why don't you learn to give the perfect BJ and then say that! :p

The reason he has an opinion about that is because he always asks how certain things make me feel - myself and others that we have had the experience to do real life activities with. He has had a fair basis for comparison. :) His opinion is based on what others have told him (I always figured all the questions were for a reason. lol)

I think what bothers me is that I know that DS is not all about sex but that is pretty much all you see and read about. A large portion of people allude to the idea that if you are not a brazen slut who likes to get fucked six ways from Sunday in every kinky way possible or doesn't get horny from being beaten then they are not a good submissive - that you can'y be a good submissive.

Hardly anyone talks about the other elements. They only talk about the activities that got them aroused. It sometimes makes me feel that there really isn't anything else to BDSM so what's the point of continuing and that, perhaps, I am not a submissive because of what the general population alludes as to what makes a good submissive. You don't read about how someone artistically a cup of coffee or what have you, only how they were beaten silly, got outrageously horny, and then being fucked into a coma. Little to nothing is said about all the rest. I've looked for the rest, but all I come up with is sex.

[Jadetiger]

The reason he has an opinion about that is because he always asks how certain things make me feel - myself and others that we have had the experience to do real life activities with. He has had a fair basis for comparison. :) His opinion is based on what others have told him (I always figured all the questions were for a reason. lol)

I think what bothers me is that I know that DS is not all about sex but that is pretty much all you see and read about. A large portion of people allude to the idea that if you are not a brazen slut who likes to get fucked six ways from Sunday in every kinky way possible or doesn't get horny from being beaten then they are not a good submissive - that you can'y be a good submissive.

Hardly anyone talks about the other elements. They only talk about the activities that got them aroused. It sometimes makes me feel that there really isn't anything else to BDSM so what's the point of continuing and that, perhaps, I am not a submissive because of what the general population alludes as to what makes a good submissive. You don't read about how someone artistically a cup of coffee or what have you, only how they were beaten silly, got outrageously horny, and then being fucked into a coma. Little to nothing is said about all the rest. I've looked for the rest, but all I come up with is sex.

FF,
I would love to read of your experiences as a submissive. I truly don't think being beaten would make me horny either but at this point I really wouldn't know. I understand where you are coming. I don't feel like I fit in either sometimes but what I have learned is that if you are doing what makes your Dom and you feel good then it is right. I truly would love to hear about the non-sexual type of submissiveness. The urge to please and serve someone on a more basic and mental level. This is the part of being a submissive that I can't seem to grasp totally. Everyone talks about a submissive mindset and it means different things to different people. While I can perform my tasks successfully I feel like I have still not succeeded because I do not do it all for my master's pleasure. So in some people’s eyes I have the wrong mind set for a submissive and need to be trained to have the right mindset. This will never happen for me. While I can be commanded to do tasks I can’t be force to feel something I really don’t. So your submissiveness really intrigues me. One that is more on a mental level and emotional level. I hope you start talking about the other elements. I believe there are a lot of sub’s that feel the way you do and are just to shy to talked about it. I personally need to hear this kind of discussion from people other than Doms. I want the Sub’s point of view. Thanks FF

Jade

[truckinnhorsin]

Perhaps the reason one doesn't hear much about serving coffee, or cleaning the floor, etc, is because of how people look at it?

I mean if you look at the help threads... Making a cup of coffee, is generally a simpler task, and much easier to obtain instructions about. While performing the perfect blowjob... well you can't call momma and ask her how to do that. How to wield a cat or a single tail, is equally hard ot get info on, so maybe, that's why they get brought up so often?

I've seen at least a few threads on emotional/mental submission... it's definitely out there and part of it.

I personally.. equally enjoy the pleased contentment when i've brought coffee, cooked breakfast, and given a good back rub to start the day for my man, as well as the blissful look when i finish a good BJ or some other form of carnal pleasure.

And i'd definitely have to say i myself have recently learned quite a bit about submissive feelings... at work! My boss is an older lady, 5'4-5'5 ish, thin, not the most attractive woman but not nasty to look at. And multiple times a day i feel like i should drop to my knees and address her as Mistress.. and i have plenty of day dreams (cleaning hotel rooms really opens up the mind to allow time for such things) about such submissive acts... yet sex never even comes close to entering my mind. (and im one of the more "brazen slut who likes to get fucked six ways from Sunday in every kinky way possible" types. lol)

So the more mental D/s is definitely out there, even among the stereotype painsluts... maybe just not talked about by those that are such adrenaline junkies??


Teni

[slavelucy]

So the more mental D/s is definitely out there, even among the stereotype painsluts... maybe just not talked about by those that are such adrenaline junkies??

That's a great way of putting it, well said. :)

Wontworry loved it when i cooked for him and always loves it when i want things (even the smallest and most non sexual of things) to be 'right' for him, it's a natural part of submission IMO (which is possibly another reason why it isn't talked about much, surely no sub would just fling a shoddily made cup of tea in their doms general direction!), but equally as important to any dominant. It most certainly doesn't de-value someone taking pain for you or doing things in a more sexual arena though.

sl

[Barton]

A very valid point TG. And one that is easily overlooked by us all, including myself.

As much as I enjoy securing and flogging Kats (and she enjoys it as well), and having great sex with her. The other things that she brings to our relationship are just as or maybe even more important. The coffee brought to me first thing in the morning, the breakfast made the way I like it. All of the many little gestures of her love and submission that she makes on a daily basis are what helps make our relationship so wonderfull. ( She even gets the kind of KFC that I like instead of the one that she prefers.)

I am glad that you stated it so clearly.

[Ruby]

Hardly anyone talks about the other elements. They only talk about the activities that got them aroused. It sometimes makes me feel that there really isn't anything else to BDSM so what's the point of continuing and that, perhaps, I am not a submissive because of what the general population alludes as to what makes a good submissive. You don't read about how someone artistically a cup of coffee or what have you, only how they were beaten silly, got outrageously horny, and then being fucked into a coma. Little to nothing is said about all the rest. I've looked for the rest, but all I come up with is sex.

Simply put "sex sells" and there isn't enough well written literature that explores the whole dynamic of the relationship.

For example, why did I go the doctor and get medicine last week for my cold. Not because I wanted to, I was going to tough it out. But because my T said, that's it, you're going today fpr me. Okay. For him, yup, I'll do it.


The urge to please and serve someone on a more basic and mental level. This is the part of being a submissive that I can't seem to grasp totally. Everyone talks about a submissive mindset and it means different things to different people. While I can perform my tasks successfully I feel like I have still not succeeded because I do not do it all for my master's pleasure.

Jade, you bring up an interesting part of your journey. Let's be real here, of course it's not all for him. If a part of it wasn't for you, it wouldn't be satisfying to do the task.

The more my hubby and I explore this part of our lives, the more I realize how role reversed we had become when we were having marital problems. My external persona is so very dominant that I was bringing that part of me home. Now, it's much easier for me to flip that switch in my brain and move into more of a submissive role and I do take pride in the little things that make him happy. Those types of things that Teni, FF, sl and Barton mentioned.

TG - another well done essay. I've been thinking about it all day, because my first inclination was to argue with you. And then I realized why - it was this line:
There is a difference between kinky sex and BDSM.

I agree that there is a difference between kinky sex and a D/S relationship, and I believe that those in a D/S relationship can enjoy kinky sex.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

TG - another well done essay. I've been thinking about it all day, because my first inclination was to argue with you. And then I realized why - it was this line:
There is a difference between kinky sex and BDSM.

I agree that there is a difference between kinky sex and a D/S relationship, and I believe that those in a D/S relationship can enjoy kinky sex.

You know? Thats actually what I meant to type. I just forgot to go back and change it. :)

Thanks.

[GaryWilcox]

D/s is not about sex. Unless you make it about sex.

Sex has a very complicated mental process. If you include elements of the sex in D/s, don't bother trying to unring that bell...

[wannabeXopsed]

Today after spending the last two years with a friend who was the first to recongize my submissive nature.:rolleyes:

After getting to know him, dinner, being friends, playing sometimes, and spending a great deal of time just talking, (his choice/not mine) he ask if I wanted to come to his house for dinner. I almost had to reboot my computer.
I was in total shock. :eek:

He then proceeded to ask if I wanted it to be social or would I want to submit to him. After the last two years, I had thought we would just remain friends and nothing more.:dunno:

I ask him in what ways did he want me to submit as I thought I always had. I told him I had always tryed to please him in everyway possible and what had he meant. He said I hadn't and would I help clean and cook for him. I told him of course I would, it had always been my goal to serve him. Until today when he ask me to serve him in a domestic way, I had always thought of submission in a sexual way. :o

Tonight I come home and find this thread, and in my journey it was a total revelation, that being submissive means a lot things, and not just SEX!!!

This revelation has made me think twice of his request for me to be his sub puts a whole new light on things, because yes I want to serve him, nothing would make me happier. When all along I thought he wanted sex and that is not what it was at all. Of course the sex isn't bad and is a perk, but it isn't the end all of how our relationship has devoloped.

I thought we would never move past the friends part until today when this has all come together for me. I need to find my cleaning smock, and cooking apron, and get started.

This has been a very enlighting day for me.

Thanks

T

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Tonight I come home and find this thread, and in my journey it was a total revelation, that being submissive means a lot things, and not just SEX!!!

I can read your mind. Mwahahaha! Oooweeooo... :D

[wannabeXopsed]

That's kinda scary :eek:

T

[e.b.]

I've been thinking about it all day, because my first inclination was to argue with you. And then I realized why - it was this line:
There is a difference between kinky sex and BDSM.

I agree that there is a difference between kinky sex and a D/S relationship, and I believe that those in a D/S relationship can enjoy kinky sex.

Ruby, thank you!!! My first inclination was to argue as well...b/c as I mentioned above, I value both the domestic/mental servitude and the sexual servitude. You helped me realize that it was the line in question that really bothered me. Good for you for stepping back and sorting it out a bit before posting!! I should have done the same and I apologize, TG, for getting irritable over an otherwise good article that will be helpful to many.

I guess for me the mental submission is pretty much an intuitive thing while the sex is a great added bonus. Since the mental aspects of submission have become somewhat instinctual, I guess I figured that it was that way for most of us. For many of us, I still will assert that the mental D/s is the foundation of the relationships we share and that the sex just gets talked about more because it's perceived to be more interesting than "How I cleaned the bathroom today for my Dom".

I will still disagree about the coffee vs. blow job thing though. I see no reason why one type of servitude should be better or worse than the other. I suspect both types are present in most relationships, but either are also valid and worthwhile in themselves. Also, having worked in a coffee shop for two years, I know the intricacies of a good cup of coffee. Having gotten a fair amount of practice giving blow jobs, I also think that they can be at least as challenging to do well. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that there is a mental aspect of submission to giving a good blow job. For that matter, there can be a sexual aspect to serving a cup of coffee. It's not just about the sex though...it still comes down to a willingness to please one's dom.

IMO, the essence of a good D/s relationship is the same as any other relationship and consists of both dom and sub endeavoring to care for each other to the best of their abilities. My experience has shown that the mental aspects of the relationship yield great rewards for both members of the relationship. For example, last year I was having a hellish time in anatomy and was doing poorly regardless of how I went at it. Having a dom that was willing to put in some effort to help me focus on ways to improve and then to check in to make sure I was actually following his advice was crucial to my success. Our instructor was commonly known around school as the "Anatomy Nazi", so when we had difficulties, most of us would go to the teaching assistants for help because the instructor was incredibly intimidating.

When my dom heard that he was less than pleased. He cut to the chase telling me that obviously the TA's weren't helping and that I was to ask the instuctor for help instead. Now normally I'm not easily intimidated, but that was absolutely terrifying!! I never would have done it except to please my dom. After I started getting help from the instructor the class was still hard as hell, but my grade greatly improved. My dom really had nothing to gain from the extra effort he put in to assuring my success. He simply did it because he cared about my best interest.

I see most of what I do as a sub in the same type context. When I'm with a dom and take his coat for him, serve food, do chores, offer my body as a table or footstool, run little errands to save him time, provide a friendly ear to listen and offer advice/insight if asked, OR engage in SM and other sexual activities...it doesn't matter what I'm doing. All that matters is that I'm being a supportive, caring, and pleasing sub.

Anyhow, just another two or three cents to help clarify my thoughts...please take or leave them as you see fit. ;)

eb

[GaryWilcox]

With the very greatest of respect, says who? You? Surely it depends on the submissive? Some subs really don't like giving head and hence to do so in a thoughtful, completely selfless way is as beautiful (or, to use your terms effecting her deeply, in a mental sense) as someone delicately and thoughtfully serving you a drink. You know...

Coffee's great. I don't drink it myself, mind you-- but, by way of example, I think sweet iced tea is the best stuff in the world.

And while it's perfectly beautiful for a sub to come to my home, make the best sweet iced tea in the world, and then serve it to me, it really couldn't possibly compare with the act of accepting any part of my body in to hers to please me.

Okay, I'm straying from the point a little, but not entirely. While D/s has a nonsexual underbelly, involving it in sexuality opens it up (and includes it) as part of sexual nature. As I said earlier, human sexuality has complexities of intellect and ideas of desire that far outweigh that of animals. We think too much.

In honesty, we don't call the relationship of a mother and a child D/s because there's an unhealthy sexual connotation there. While D/s can mean so much more than sex, once D/s in introduced into a sex life, it tends to mean that sexuality is very D/s-centric from then on.

So, to put it simply, D/s may not be all about sex, but try telling sex that.

Thanks for reading!

[MsTerry]

As my profile states I am waiting for “The One” and marriage which will be to “The One.” I fully believe that you can be involved in a D/s relationship without it being only about sex. In fact you could have one completely without sex altogether. To think that sex MUST be including in that equation to be a D/s relationship is as ludicrous as saying that while you are dating someone it is not a real relationship unless you are having sex. I have had a dating relationship before (not D/s) that was very meaningful that did not include sex. And I am sure almost all of you have. To me a D/s relationship is just as meaningful as any loving relationship. It is comprised of love, respect, trust, and the occasional flogging. Its keystone is trust not sex.
I would be just as content to serve my Master doing domestic activities, or giving him a 3 hour back massage. Because my role would be to please him and therefore would make me happy. In response to the whole coffee debate going on - I am sure that my Master would enjoy a great blow job (haven't done that either) as much is not more than a 3 hour massage but I would ask nothing in return or expect because I would feel content knowing that he was enjoying it. Servitude is what would please me because it would please my Master.
I would much rather cuddle than have sex anyway - but then again I don't know what I am missing. I enjoy the emotional closeness than the physical intimacy.

[GaryWilcox]

To me a D/s relationship is just as meaningful as any loving relationship. It is comprised of love, respect, trust, and the occasional flogging. Its keystone is trust not sex. Provided it is seperate from sex, I definitely agree-- I don't think D/s changes sex, but sex (in my opinion) does change D/s.

[ProjectEuropa]

With the very greatest of respect, says who? You? Surely it depends on the submissive? Some subs really don't like giving head and hence to do so in a thoughtful, completely selfless way is as beautiful (or, to use your terms effecting her deeply, in a mental sense) as someone delicately and thoughtfully serving you a drink.



Rita in the local cafe serves me a drink, if not altogether delicately and thoughtfully. However she is in her own way being submissive because I'm at that moment paying the piper to play my tune. The difference as to when a partner serves me a drink (in one of her less feisty moods) as a submissive act, is the sexual connotation that I can take more and she would be willing to give more than a drink. However I tend to make the drinks because the tea I'm usually served up with is like dishwater and I know she really hasn't got the skill to improve because she hates making tea. I would imagine it would be similar for a BJ, if she really doesn't like it, would it be any good and would I then want it or would I want it just because I could make her do it?

I'm not sure where I'm going here. I think I'm trying to say that while all submissive acts aren't sexual, without the sexual undercurrent and potential sexual reward, they become meaningless to a sexual D/s relationship. Hmm Maybe not. Where I wouldn't enjoy a BJ knowing the sub really doesn't like giving one, it could well be arousing for some people knowing they can have a BJ because they can demand one regardless of the sub's fulfillment. My own feelings are I might as well pay Rita to make the tea because she is better at it.

OK I've confused myself. :confused: I'm stopping here before I'm accused of being off topic.

[slavelucy]

And while it's perfectly beautiful for a sub to come to my home, make the best sweet iced tea in the world, and then serve it to me, it really couldn't possibly compare with the act of accepting any part of my body in to hers to please me.

*smiles* Yes, exactly. i mean, i wasn't trying to suggest that having someone prepare a drink or a meal wasn't submissive or lovely, indeed it gives me immense satisfaction to make such things 'right' for WW, but i feel it's bringing sex down to a base gritty level to suggest that it is less mentally fulfilling, and i was suprised to see that. Plus, there's the simple fact that to be honest, part of being submissive means that i pretty much want things to be right for anyone for whom i make a drink and/or prepare food, whoever the guest was, i'd be keen for them to enjoy any sustenance i proffered but i don't offer to give blow jobs to everyone (er, obviously!), which sets it apart, IMO.



In honesty, we don't call the relationship of a mother and a child D/s because there's an unhealthy sexual connotation there. While D/s can mean so much more than sex, once D/s in introduced into a sex life, it tends to mean that sexuality is very D/s-centric from then on.

So, to put it simply, D/s may not be all about sex, but try telling sex that.

Wow. Well said. And what an interesting point. Am i in a Ds relationship when i have dinner guests in my home and want things to be right for them? Surely not! That's an extreme example, but the intellectual point remains the same and it's a seriously good one.


I would imagine it would be similar for a BJ, if she really doesn't like it, would it be any good and would I then want it or would I want it just because I could make her do it?

i see what you mean, but i was actually talking about the feelings from the sub side and not yours (the dom). The issue was about which action promotes an increased quality of mental submission (that's not to say the dom perspective wouldn't be interesting btw) and although i take your point about if someone doesn't want to do it, it's not the same because your forced her, i feel the complete opposite. i admit i don't particularly like giving head, so for me to do so with care, well, i happen to think that's quite a selfless act and it DOES require some degree of mental submission on my part.


I'm not sure where I'm going here. I think I'm trying to say that while all submissive acts aren't sexual, without the sexual undercurrent they become meaningless to a D/s relationship. I might as well pay Rita to make the tea because she is better at it.

Great point PE, nice one. And pretty similar (although better put) to what i said about wanting things to be right for dinner guests. Oh, and i don't think you are off topic, i think you're very much ON topic actually!

sl

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I'm not sure where I'm going here. I think I'm trying to say that while all submissive acts aren't sexual, without the sexual undercurrent and potential sexual reward, they become meaningless to a sexual D/s relationship. Hmm Maybe not. Where I wouldn't enjoy a BJ knowing the sub really doesn't like giving one, it could well be arousing for some people knowing they can have a BJ because they can demand one regardless of the sub's fulfillment. My own feelings are I might as well pay Rita to make the tea because she is better at it.

But why does there have to be a sexual reward, or a sexual undercurrent? Why does it always have to be about the physical? There are plenty of mental aspects that require nothing of the physical whatsoever. I keep using the fetching coffee thing as an example, but I feel it's a good one. The submissive is doing something selfless for her partner that doesn't involve an orgasm from either party. I realize that a blowjob is a fairly selfless act, but it's still a physical, sexual one. It's not an act one would consider to be solely mentally gratifying.

I doubt that made any sense. It's hard to put into words, really.

The difference between Rita fetching you a cup of coffee and a submissive doing it is that Rita's getting paid to fetch your coffee. It's not particularly selfless or submissive, because it's her job. In the same situation, Rita giving you head might be a pretty selfless act on her part, but you paying her to do it would be illegal. LMAO :D

[ProjectEuropa]

But why does there have to be a sexual reward, or a sexual undercurrent? Why does it always have to be about the physical? There are plenty of mental aspects that require nothing of the physical whatsoever. I keep using the fetching coffee thing as an example, but I feel it's a good one. The submissive is doing something selfless for her partner that doesn't involve an orgasm from either party. I realize that a blowjob is a fairly selfless act, but it's still a physical, sexual one. It's not an act one would consider to be solely mentally gratifying.

I doubt that made any sense. It's hard to put into words, really.

The difference between Rita fetching you a cup of coffee and a submissive doing it is that Rita's getting paid to fetch your coffee. It's not particularly selfless or submissive, because it's her job. In the same situation, Rita giving you head might be a pretty selfless act on her part, but you paying her to do it would be illegal. LMAO :D

Hmm I agree with you. I did start to lose my train of thought and I think it was over that issue. There doesn't necessarily have to be any sexual reward but there certainly has to be a reward and psychological fulfillment can be much more rewarding and longer lasting than physical reward.

As for Rita giving head, please let's not go there :p . A wonderful woman though she is, she is way too old for me even at my age.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

There doesn't necessarily have to be any sexual reward but there certainly has to be a reward and psychological fulfillment can be much more rewarding and longer lasting than physical reward.

Exactly. That's why I feel that mental aspects tend to invoke deeper levels of submission than physical ones do. The psychological rewards and the sense of accomplishment are likely going to stick with a person longer than the after-effects of the orgasm are.

[Barton]

But why does there have to be a sexual reward, or a sexual undercurrent? Why does it always have to be about the physical? :D

Because sex is so much fun. :p

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Because sex is so much fun. :p

Well, sure. There's always that. :D

[Katmandu]

Right, OK. Thought I would just read this thread to see where it was going, but now I have to jump in.


Originally posted by ProjectEuropa
The difference as to when a partner serves me a drink (in one of her less feisty moods) as a submissive act, is the sexual connotation that I can take more and she would be willing to give more than a drink. However I tend to make the drinks because the tea I'm usually served up with is like dishwater and I know she really hasn't got the skill to improve because she hates making tea. I would imagine it would be similar for a BJ, if she really doesn't like it, would it be any good and would I then want it or would I want it just because I could make her do it?

Right! What happens when, a sub isn't "into it", and cannot bring the love and passion into the act they are performing? Do the Dom's care, and get off anyway, based on this control level? Or, do they get turned off whenever a sub is less than enthusiastic?

In reference to the beginning of this chat, a sub usually gets into the act of submission, whatever it is, in order to please and serve the Dom. Does that sub require more training (brainwashing) in order to be more in tune with the Master's wishes, in the case of attempting to do something they hate doing?


Originally posted by MsTerrry
I would feel content knowing that he was enjoying it. Servitude is what would please me because it would please my Master.

So, if a sub has issues with a Dom's (harmless) desires, does that "not a good sub make"?

[Ranai]

I am somewhat doubtful that people can be trained to enjoy things they previously disliked; not just felt neutral or nervous about, but actually disliked.

It happens in BDSM fiction all the time, but for the most part I believe it's wishful thinking.

Whether a submissive is willing to do a thing he/she dislikes, purely for the enjoyment of the dominant, is a question of limits, and needs to be discussed between the two as partners.


So, if a sub has issues with a Dom's (harmless) desires, does that "not a good sub make"?
No. Just a sub with limits. And who hasn't? Whether something is a limit that might be open to be 'pushed' at some point, or a hard limit, is for the submissive to say.

[ProjectEuropa]

Right! What happens when, a sub isn't "into it", and cannot bring the love and passion into the act they are performing? Do the Dom's care, and get off anyway, based on this control level? Or, do they get turned off whenever a sub is less than enthusiastic?


Well I can only speak for myself. If the sub is really not into something and is really not getting anything out of a task, I'm can't imagine being interested in the task myself. There has to be some obvious benefit in a task that the sub can identify to make a task worthwhile. I personally don't find any reward in making a sub do something simply because I can make a sub do something.



In reference to the beginning of this chat, a sub usually gets into the act of submission, whatever it is, in order to please and serve the Dom. Does that sub require more training (brainwashing) in order to be more in tune with the Master's wishes, in the case of attempting to do something they hate doing?


Brainwashing is strictly a No No with me. There is too much potential as it is to fuck with someones head. Reluctance accompanied by a curiousity is another matter. I think then it is legitimate to discuss and influence.



So, if a sub has issues with a Dom's (harmless) desires, does that "not a good sub make"?

Hmm What is harmless? One can say with some authority what is physically harmless but one can't say with any authority what is psychologically harmless, one would have to be able to look into someone's head for that.

[Ranai]

Rita giving you head might be a pretty selfless act on her part, but you paying her to do it would be illegal. LMAO :D Is prostitution illegal in the UK?

[ProjectEuropa]

Is prostitution illegal in the UK?

No. Prostitution isn't illegal in the UK but soliciting is, which means you can't technically advertise you are a prostitute and you can't technically approach someone and ask them if they will take payment for sex. Basically these are nuisance laws so the police can clear an area but for all intents and purposes prostitution is legal. Really if prostitution isn't causing a nuisance then the police turn a blind eye to all the other offences they use to combat the nuisance it can cause, such as kerb crawling and women getting approached for sex.

[Ranai]

Thanks. I recently read a novel from Scotland, Ian Rankin: Strip Jack, wherein the police go and close down a bordello. Which made me wonder on the base of what law... but probably now you'll say 'Aaah, it's all different again in Scotland!'
Prostitution legislation? :hijacked:
Sorry TG. ;) Back to the topic.

Or, wait... If it were merely All About the Sex, we could all be satisfied with callguys or callgirls who are able to act the part. Financial disadvantages aside, the fact that we seek affairs and relationships appears to indicate that we need more than sex.

But the market for sex, and kinky sex, and SM / fetish interaction with no sexual intercourse, without the context of an affair or relationship, is there. So the wish or need to merely have (kinky) sex or have a SM scene for many is strong enough that they are willing to pay for it.

[ProjectEuropa]

Thanks. I recently read a novel from Scotland, Ian Rankin: Strip Jack, wherein the police go and close down a bordello. Which made me wonder on the base of what law... but probably now you'll say 'Aaah, it's all different again in Scotland!'.


Yep. Scotland has it's own laws. I'll stand to be corrected but I think in this area they are similar to laws in England and Wales.



Or, wait... If it were merely All About the Sex, we could all be satisfied with callguys or callgirls who are able to act the part. Financial disadvantages aside, the fact that we seek affairs and relationships appears to indicate that we need more than sex.

Aren't affairs about sex? One of the reasons for affairs I would imagine is the need for excitement of a new person to have sex with. Standing by and making a stale relationship work would indicate that more is happening than just sex. I would imagine most people long to escape the drudgery of a relationship that has lost its excitement, if only for a short while.

[Ranai]

Aren't affairs about sex?Sure. Did I write anything that said they weren't?

One of the reasons for affairs I would imagine is the need for excitement of a new person to have sex with.Yes. And depending on how long the love affair lasts, the excitement of more than sexual intimacies shared, the excitement of getting to know each other better as individuals, the excitement of all sorts of shared experiences.

TG's initial post here refers to DS relationships. I'd say, a one night stand or a callguy/callgirl are All About the Sex. No relationship. So not to be underestimated: there's a demand for Sex Only.

It would be interesting to have input here from Pro Dommes and Pro Doms. Many of whom do scenes without sexual intercourse. Why? Because those Pros prefer to define their business that way: domination, SM, but no sex? Because of legal issues? Because the clients get off without intercourse? Because it's not all about the sex? Is there a significant amount of professional scenes where the clients don't get sexual satisfaction? (I hope these questions don't sound presumptuous; I'd really like to know.)

[spankinsue]

I don't think it has to all be about sex, but for me it pretty much is. I already have a loving caring relationship with my husband and daughter. I put them and their happiness/needs before mine alot, because it makes me feel good. But do I "have to"? No. I feel like this position in a d/s relationship is more expected and i know I would feel more like I had no choice. It's giving that power to someone else that happens to be a turn on to me sexually. It's where this subject fits into my life and meets needs that I can't get any other way.

[Caitlin]

This thread really had me thinking and analysing things. Basically, wether were in a DS or vanilla relationship we do the things we do to please those who we love. Regardless of sex.

I'm straying from the point a little, but not entirely. While D/s has a nonsexual underbelly, involving it in sexuality opens it up (and includes it) as part of sexual nature. As I said earlier, human sexuality has complexities of intellect and ideas of desire that far outweigh that of animals. We think too much.

I had a lot more things I wanted to write about, but the more I thought about it, the more confused I got. :confused: So i'll stop and make my own cuppa.

[orchidsoul]

I think this is a really interesting thread. Thanks for starting it TG.

I wanted to just toss in my thoughts and experience. When I was first introduced to D/s, I did a google search to learn more.

Within the first few was gloria_brame and wizdomme. Both I thought were informative in different ways. They also don't strictly deal with sex. I think wizdomme did more.... one of the two led me to this site and I don't really peruse others so much so, so I can't really remember. Needless to say, I have stayed here because I realized you're all real people, living this very real lifestyle. And all on different levels, experience, etc. (I'm not making my point very well as I'm a bit exhausted... I apologize but please bare with me!)

None of these sites were ever strictly about sex. If one does a google search for BDSM, much more sex and pic sites are given. D/s though, different results. I don't know- I think this site in particular talks an awful lot about much more than sex. Yes, sexual context is generally for most a large undercurrent in a D/s relationship, but it's also about so much more than that and you've all made that clear through different threads. It's about establishing a connection and the sex follows. I think the same applies to a vanilla relationship too. Relationships are usually much more than sex, but sex is something two people in a relationship engage in... so it's always going to be part of it.

I think in any relationship one partakes in activities for someone to make them happy. Whether it be in a D/s relationship making sure your Dom/me's needs are always met, or in a common relationship cooking breakfast for your partner. They are just extremely different levels of servitude. But the goal is still the same- to please your partner. I would hope any serious relationship is more than just sex... it's just awful fun to talk about sex... especially the mischievous kind :)

I don't really have much real experience in D/s, but what I do know is it's much more than sex. And most of what I've learned as opposed to experienced has been through here and brief stints on a couple other websites. Sure, if you read the stories, they are loaded with sex. I'll be honest in saying I never read one story here until a few months ago(about 6 or so months after I discovered this site), and haven't read one since. I'll also say if I had read the stories in the beginning I would have closed my mind completely to D/s as they scared the hell out of me!! I think I'm trying to say I feel my knowledge thus far is fairly pure and unjaded, and most of what I have learned is about the mental connection of a D/s relationship.

I apologize as I've rambled and still don't know that I made any sense or a single contribution... "random thoughts of a tired mind" but I've been wanting to reply to this thread since it began.

~os

[e.b.]

Orchid Soul,

I completely agree with your comments...on D/s just being a more extreme form of any other relationship in that the pleasure and service to one's partner is always important. I also agree that we talk about way, way more than just sex around here. To say otherwise would be to diminish the many wonderful threads and posts about the mental aspects of submission, humility and service posted by Nikka, lucy, and so many others of us as we share our growth and experiences with bdsm as a whole. Thanks so much for posting!! :)

eb

[subthoughts]

Could it be that a sexual response is what clued most of us in to our own interests in bdsm in the first place? Most everyone can remember finding themselves surprisingly, unignorably turned on by an image or idea involving dominance - maybe it was last week or maybe it was when they were 12 - and exploring or fantasizing their way to a (probably very private) orgasm. That seems to be how it all starts for most people, and the mental connection between bdsm and sexual desire remains as we become more self-aware, seek out partners, etc.

I wonder about this a good deal. I am sexually submissive, but in my everyday life I am almost absurdly toppish. While flipping that switch in my head is very do-able in a sexual situation, and while I love to do the little things for people I care about as an expression of my affection, I have never made the leap to having a long-term relationship in which service was a feature. Perhaps I just don't have it in me, or perhaps none of my partners has happened to want that. But I feel a little bashed by reading that sexualized submission is somehow 'less than' service oriented submission. It's tough enough to find a way to walk this non-mainstream path without being told that what you feel is inadequate. Ouch.

[albear]

I wonder about this a good deal. I am sexually submissive, but in my everyday life I am almost absurdly toppish. While flipping that switch in my head is very do-able in a sexual situation, and while I love to do the little things for people I care about as an expression of my affection, I have never made the leap to having a long-term relationship in which service was a feature. Perhaps I just don't have it in me, or perhaps none of my partners has happened to want that. But I feel a little bashed by reading that sexualized submission is somehow 'less than' service oriented submission. It's tough enough to find a way to walk this non-mainstream path without being told that what you feel is inadequate. Ouch.

You made good points in your post, but I want you to know you're not alone in this bit. It's different for everyone, for some people (myself included) it's all (or mostly) sexual. For others it's not. Don't let anyone make you feel that what you do is right or wrong, it's what works for you. When I first started reading this thread I actually thought "if anyone tried to use me as a footstool I'd deck them" but at the same time, I make a mean cup of tea for my hubby and serve it to him. I also appear the dominant partner in my relationship to friends and I'm often the one giving orders in my work life. To sum up that little tangent, it's all about what works for you. :D

I'll admit I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so sorry if I just repeated something someone has already said!

[e.b.]

I wonder about this a good deal. I am sexually submissive, but in my everyday life I am almost absurdly toppish. While flipping that switch in my head is very do-able in a sexual situation, and while I love to do the little things for people I care about as an expression of my affection, I have never made the leap to having a long-term relationship in which service was a feature. Perhaps I just don't have it in me, or perhaps none of my partners has happened to want that. But I feel a little bashed by reading that sexualized submission is somehow 'less than' service oriented submission. It's tough enough to find a way to walk this non-mainstream path without being told that what you feel is inadequate. Ouch.

subthoughts,

You are NOT at all inadequate. I had a similar reaction when first reading the early portions of the thread. However, I believe the original post was meant to show the validity of non-sexual forms of submission. I don't think it was necessarily meant to belittle those of us that serve in other ways although it was a bit harsher than I think was necessary.

As you can see from my previous posts to this thread, I am both service-oriented and sexually-oriented in my submission. Since I do both, I think that I have the insight into each to say that both are challenging in equal but different ways. I would never even think of telling another sub that he or she was somehow "less of a sub" for choosing to serve in a purely domestic OR a purely sexual fashion. I'd also bet that most members of the forums would agree with us on this one that each sub should be respected for her excellence in WHATEVER area(s) she chooses.

I am also in complete agreement that we need to show acceptance to all the varied members of our lifestyle if we ever expect those outside the lifestyle to show that same acceptance.

Thanks for your post...I'm glad you spoke up! And welcome to the forums!! There are lots of great people here...I know I've learned from many and consider them good friends.

Take care,

eb

[Jadetiger]

I wonder about this a good deal. I am sexually submissive, but in my everyday life I am almost absurdly toppish. While flipping that switch in my head is very do-able in a sexual situation, and while I love to do the little things for people I care about as an expression of my affection, I have never made the leap to having a long-term relationship in which service was a feature. Perhaps I just don't have it in me, or perhaps none of my partners has happened to want that. But I feel a little bashed by reading that sexualized submission is somehow 'less than' service oriented submission. It's tough enough to find a way to walk this non-mainstream path without being told that what you feel is inadequate. Ouch.

Subthoughts,
I too have gotten the impression that I am lacking because I don't feel this great need for service-oriented submission. I am glad I am not the only one who has felt it. It is obviously important to a lot of people but our sexual submission is just as valid as their service-oriented submission. What we need to understand is that we may be a minority and may be send as lacking by some who do not find this part of BDSM as a turn on or true submission. This is really okay as far as I see it because we would not pick them as our Dom or Domme anyway. In truth it boils down to matching the right people and needs together to form a good and successful relationship, which is what BDSM is about. We are all unique individuals with our own ideas and needs. We will not always understand each other but we can accept each other opinions.

[subthoughts]

Thanks for the encouraging words -- much appreciated :)

[orchidsoul]

Orchid Soul,

I completely agree with your comments... Thanks so much for posting!! :)

eb


thanks so much eb. I'm glad you were able to extract what my tired mind was trying to convey.

subthoughts- I just want to say how your post rang to me. I have spent an awful lot of time learning of the mental, and for me the mental will be during sexual submission. like you, I'm not sure if it's that I don't have it in me or a variety of other reasons, but by no means do I think it lessens your desires or anyone with strictly sexual submissive desires regardless how deep those desires even go (level of pain, etc).

That is what I have spent time learning here (that everyones levels and desires are different and are none the less than a 24/7 submissive) and I truly hope that no one would tell you any different.

Do what feels right for you and be happy.

~os

[Locked Advantages]

I was just rereading everything that I've seen written out here and it made me see that to please a dominant I don't need to have sex, although to a point I knew that is true because of personal issues that I've described before its hard for me to have sex but with a dominant I surrender my all to him...or as much as I can from within. I believe true submission comes from the mind and soul not the pussy although once a dom has the mind and soul completely he can have the body.....but at times part of the body finds it harder to submit than other sides. So in my eyes sex is not needed for me to submit and I know with anyone it would take me a very long time for me to submit that although for a dom it would be more likely for me to submit in other ways.

[Caitlin]

I believe true submission comes from the mind and soul not the pussy
So true LA.


So in my eyes sex is not needed for me to submit and I know with anyone it would take me a very long time for me to submit that although for a dom it would be more likely for me to submit in other ways.
Trust. Such a simple word, but no light matter. Trust is to be earnt and shouldn't be given lightly. Don't be pushed into giving it. :) Or to give what your not ready to give. There are understanding men out there. I know. I own one. :)

caitlin :)