Out of the Frying Pan

[Moggy]

Harold

I hope you don't mind my starting a thread but your response to my review (quoted below) raises some interesting points.


This story, in my opinion, is not my best (good, but not my best), but it's the one getting all the traffic and email. Is that because I posted it serially as opposed to my usual practice of posting complete stories, or did I finally manage to write an intriguing synopsis? I have no clue.

Looking at the reader downloads of recent stories I notice that an intriguing synopsis and title attracts as many readers as the story codes.

Unlike a few notable reviewers, I enjoy serial works, as long as the chapters are a reasonable size ie 25k (4000 words). What I'll call an extended coffee break length! It gives a chance for reader/writer interaction and makes the site feel topical rather than just being a story archive.

I confess to being one of those that reduced my rating because of the downbeat ending to your otherwise excellent story (although I notice I wasn't the only one.)

Despite the non-consensual and violent subject matter some of us readers still prefer a happy ending! Perhaps it assuages our guilt...

[redEva]

Unless this is meant to be private conversation, I would appreciate link to the story in question. Just a hint ;)

[Moggy]

As you have such gorgeous red hair, here it is.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/story.php?storyid=1642

No, it's not a private conversation, just opening a much needed new thread on an interesting topic.

[Harold]

Moggy,

Thanks for opening this thread. It's a topic I've been wanting to discuss for a long time, but never got around to.

First, however, since you brought it up, a few words about the end of the story, since I've had comments in both directions. When this story popped into my head, I viewed it as a horror story rather than an erotic one and perhaps this was the wrong site to post it to. It's a story about being a victim, about ignoring the warning signs, and about wanting something too much, about seeing a relationship as what you want it to be rather than what it is. To me, this makes the ending inevitable. I don't mind if readers don't like the ending as long as they don't like it because of the nature of the ending. If, on the other hand, readers have a problem with the ending because they think it was poorly written, constructive feedback would be appreciated.

Now, to the main topic. I've always been annoyed by the story fragments (9k, 10k, 12k) that get posted to this site. That's just not enough to bother with. As a result, I've made a habit of posting only complete stories. I didn't think it was fair to the readers to get them hooked into a story, only to be interrupted by "to be continued". However, the practice seemed to be so widespread that I finally decided to try it myself.

I've been rather astonished by the result. This story has gotten more traffic, more reviews, and more emails than anything else I've posted here to date. I've found that to be rather disconcerting in that I don't think this story represents my best work.

Not having much to go on, I've jumped to the conclusion that the reason this story has gotten more attention is due to the size of the initial segment, which was 49k. The story posted prior to this one (the Mock Rape sequel) was 204k when posted and I think a lot of people were put off by the size of it, although I consider it a better story than this one.

I would like to hear comments from readers as to how they feel about serial stories as opposed to complete stories. I would also like to hear from other authors regarding their experiences posting complete vs. serial stories.

My current inclination is to abandon my previous practice and henceforth post my stories in serial form. Any comments?

[Curtis]

I think I'm going to give you a mixed bag, Harold. I prefer stories to be posted in their entirety, because often I will lose the thread of installment tales. On the other hand, stories that go over 200k cause me to pause and think whether I really want to invest that much time at one sitting.

I felt just the opposite of what some of your reviewers said. Until chapter three, I had no intention of reviewing your story, but the final installment pushed it into the "must-read" category for me. I do agree with you, though, that it really belongs on a different site (and, no, I have no suggestions for where to place it).

Aside to Moggy: I was under the impression that 25k was five thousand words. This was based on information from a book on codes and ciphers that is probably thirty years old now. Do you have a source for your estimate of four thousand words, or is that a gut feeling?

[boccaccio2000g]

In my opinion it is a little tacky to publish the story in installments if it is already completely written and you don't intend to do any major revisions. (I have two previously published stories going forward in installments now at BDSMLIB, but in both cases there have been major revisions. In the case of my Jade Pavilion Book 2, the story is already twice or three times as long as the original - and growing.) But it's episodic -- a reader could open almost any chapter whose title appeals to him or her, and make sense out of it and enjoy the numerous, varied, and extended 'thrill scenes'. And hopefully find the exotic setting, characterization etc. compelling enough to be drawn into reading the entire saga (over time).

But I think you're quite correct in judging that a lot of people are put off by very long stories. A story has to really attract my eye (via codes or synopsis) to entice me deeply into a 100 + K story. That being said, quite a few have. Some of Pamela's long stories come to mind. I've sampled almost all of the all-time "top thirty" -- almost all of which are "installment stories" -- based on most hits -- just to get a flavor of what they're like, figuring along the lines of 50,000, 000 Frenchmen can't be wrong.

But sometimes, IMO, they can. ;-) But to each his own. Obviously a great many people enjoy the top stories, or they wouldn't be top stories.


On the other hand, I don't know about any one else, but while I'll read the first (usually short) installment of a lot of stories (and review on the basis of that installment), I have to say that the number of stories that I make a mental note to revisit when the 2nd installment comes out is very small -- less than 10%. Maybe less than 5%.

So, prospective authors -- if you're planning on writing a story in installments, be sure that the first one is the best you can make it. I think most of the regular reader/reviewers are always happy to give a new author or a new story a chance. But most of the time you're only going to get one bite at the apple -- if the first installment is just so-so, (or worse) you're going to lose a lot of us.

Boccaccio

[Moggy]

Curtis: I was under the impression that 25k was five thousand wordsYou're probably right. I must have done a word count on a story with lots of 'nooooooooooooo' 'thhhhwwaaaackk'and 'yeeooowwww!' that skewed the calculation.


Curtis: I prefer stories to be posted in their entirety, because often I will lose the thread of installment tales. I agree that it can be annoying. (I noticed that The Inspector got punished by reviewers for his infrequent updates!)

The reader has a choice to ignore the story until it's finished. Personally, I think it's good to give the writer some feedback while he/she is still working on the story.

[Powerone]

I have been publishing here for over a year and a half and over 50% of my stories are continuing stories and my stories are usually big (by your standards) with each chapter running from 10 to 25 pages. I have found that the readers do not mind this, with one of them being up for a reward (naturally as a serial story).

I do not publish in small chapters if I have already written the complete story. I have a tendency to have to say a lot with my stories and if I waited until it was completed (I have a couple that are 8 chapters and I have been working on them for over a year) I would not have much published. But I do give the reader a beginning, a middle and an end in each chapter, with just enough to keep their interest to read the next chapter.

Powerone

[Harold]

Originally posted by boccaccio2000g
In my opinion it is a little tacky to publish the story in installments if it is already completely written and you don't intend to do any major revisions.
Boccaccio

I agree, and I remember being put off by attempting to read a story where it was obvious that the author was doing exactly that--submitting an already completed story in pieces.

Nonetheless, that is exactly what I did and intend to do in the future. This story was unusual for me in that it came to me as a nearly complete idea. In most cases, when I start writing a story, I have no idea where it's going. I make it up as I go. I enjoy this process and I'm often surprised by where it leads. However, it also means that I have to go back to the beginning and clear up inconsistencies as the story evolves, which can be a bit awkward if the beginning of the story is already posted and a bunch of people have read it. Therefore, I don't think I'll ever post a serial story as it is being written.

However, as both you and Curtis pointed out, asking a reader to commit to a 100k plus story may be asking too much. What I'm looking at doing now is posting completed stories in user friendly chunks. The fact that the story is already complete when the first episode is posted will also mean that updates will be forthcoming fairly rapidly.

For those who do post serial stories as they're written, I have a question. Don't you find that limiting? Doesn't your story ever take an unexpected turn that causes you to either have to go back and change an earlier segment or, failing that, abandon the new wrinkle? Just curious.

[boccaccio2000g]

[
For those who do post serial stories as they're written, I have a question. Don't you find that limiting? Doesn't your story ever take an unexpected turn that causes you to either have to go back and change an earlier segment or, failing that, abandon the new wrinkle? Just curious. [/B][/QUOTE]

------------------------------------------
Sure, it can be a problem. You can't exactly 'change' the past. But I have found that the "past" in a story can be subject to considerable tinkering.

You can't say "Oops, I was just kidding. X wasn't dead after all."

Or, "Forget about when I said Y was a 27-year old redhead with big breasts; she's actually a 19-year old blonde with HUGE breasts." :-)

But with flashbacks, you can add to the past, give your characters new dimensions as they occur to you, and fill in all sorts of background to people, places, and things.

Just as you do, I make a lot of things up as I go along -- adding all sorts of subplots (which I hope are interesting). But everything has to be consistent with the general thrust and theme of the story -- I think one needs to know where one wants to end up. And I know where my long story is going to end up; but even after a year of re-writing, I'm not exactly sure of the precise route all of the characters will take to get there.

Obviously there are advantages to withholding everything until it's ALL complete. But there are great disadvantages to that too. If someone had told me a year ago that I would have to spend as many hours on my story as I have, I would have dropped it like a hot potato. But taking it one installment at a time makes it more or less manageable.

Installments also allow the author to get occasional feedback, which again is psychologically very important to most of us. I don't get a lot of "Attaboys", but I very much appreciate the few that I do get -- and I let my handful of communicative fans know it. A few of them have contributed very helpful ideas, as well. It would be impossible for me, I think, to write as much as I have written this past year without the occasional pat on the back that the installment format has generated.

About nine months ago I sent what I considered a very nice complete novel-length story to another well-known site for BDSM fiction. And got not a single response.

I won't do that again. <g>

Boccaccio

[YNHumiliator]

Yep I have to agree with Boccaccio - you can't change things once you've submitted them and if your ideas evolve as mine do it would take an absloute age before I could publish anything. It takes me a long time to get my ideas actually written down anyway - not necessarily because they are complicated or anything but just the fact that I'm slow at writing.

Getting a little bit of feedback now and then really helps. As was said earlier in the thread - if you submit the whole story in one hit you get one chance at people taking the time to comment. Adding chapters creates many more comments. I also find that people mail me with ideas as well, as the story progresses, which all helps.

It also lets you know if your story is actually arousing i.e. you've got it right! Not that that may be important to some authors - but it is to me.

[Harold]

I understand the point both of you are making. It's really a matter of personal preference. This last story was completed in a couple of weeks, but my longer stories have taken months. I suppose I could have gotten some feedback if I'd posted them piecemeal as I went, but I just don't like to put a story out until I'm done with it, but that's just me. So, anyway, now I'm going to post them piecemeal after they're done, mainly to reduce the size of the initial posting to something under 50k.

Although I usually know where a story is headed, I sometimes create a character and follow him around to see what he does with no idea where the story is going It occasionally does call for drastic changes in prior sections of the story. Does anyone else do this or am I out in left field here?



Originally posted by YNHumiliator


It also lets you know if your story is actually arousing i.e. you've got it right! Not that that may be important to some authors - but it is to me.


I agree, but primarily the story has to be arousing to me and I can only hope it works for others as well. The problem with depending on readers for affirmation is that if you don't get it right, then you've blown it and there's probably no point in posting subsequent chapters because no one will read them. In that regard, there's not a whole lot of difference between posting a complete story and posting one serially.

[Fox]

I may be new here, but a few years back, I had my own website on which I posted my own work and the works of friends. I found that running a serial encouraged repeat visits - and a LOT of comments and feedback. No one ever wanted to know if the story was complete before it was posted, they just wanted to know what was coming next.

In a site such as this, where there is so much work, I can see where that would be a problem. As much as serials are appealing, the quantity of work here dampens the impact.
I vote for complete stories.

As to length, well, I've always been told that in matters of sex, bigger is better ... Seriously, as a writer, I do not concern myself with length. As a reader, I seek quality, not quantity.

[YNHumiliator]

Just to say that I write my stories for "me" in the first instance. They are my fantasies - but I do enjoy knowing that I've piqued someones interest, especially if they find something I've written arousing.

If all you are interested in is writing a story for yourself what's the point of putting it on a website? Personally my favourite stories are the ones that arouse me - doesn't everyone seek out those things that will give them a "buzz" - thats one of the reasons we have story codes.

[Harold]

Originally posted by YNHumiliator
If all you are interested in is writing a story for yourself what's the point of putting it on a website?

I may not have expressed myself as clearly as I might have liked in my previous post. Maybe I'll do better this time, maybe not. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was unconcerned with reader reactions.

My assumption is that if a story works for me, someone else will find it arousing as well. I don't really find out how other people view it until I've posted it and then I typically only hear from people for whom it worked.

The main point of my posts here is to get some feedback from other writers and readers and learn from their experiences. Even when I take a contrary postion, I value your opinion.

While I'm on the subject, however, I would like to mention that for me the sex is secondary in that the sex is subordinate to the plot, not the reverse. My goal is to write a story which will be read to find out what happens next, rather than be skimmed for the "good" parts. I may not always be successful, but that's the goal. Each story is an experiment.

[Fox]

I heartily concur. This is a great place for experimentation and reader feedback. And I too write to keep the reader's interest; one -hand stimuli are readily available elsewhere.

----------------
"The main point of my posts here is to get some feedback from other writers and readers and learn from their experiences. Even when I take a contrary postion, I value your opinion.

While I'm on the subject, however, I would like to mention that for me the sex is secondary in that the sex is subordinate to the plot, not the reverse. My goal is to write a story which will be read to find out what happens next, rather than be skimmed for the "good" parts. I may not always be successful, but that's the goal. Each story is an experiment."

[Curtis]

Interesting.

My thought was that I can read well-written stories anywhere (sci-fi, fantasy, mysteries, even humor), but good stroke fiction is very hard (oops!) to find, so my reviews almost always are based on the jerk-off quotient primarily, with the quality of the writing (style, grammer, spelling, punctuation) being a modifier to that base number.

A notable exception to that general rule was Harold's recent story about the frog in the frying pan, to which I gave a very high rating with the caveat that it probably should have been posted to a different site.

Hmm.

[redEva]

Out of all sites, I love this one the most not only because of the good stories (and boy are they good!) but for the forum and mostly intelligent conversation with interesting people.

That being said, I look for story that will get me wet, if it is nicely written and does not have to many grammatical errors to distract me from the main (sex) thing that is a bonus.

[Fox]

Curtis,
Then I invite you to review one or more of the 4 stories I hae posted. They range from light/humour to hard nc.
Titles: "The Chains", "You've Got Male", "Tonight I'm Going to Party" and "Ho!"

No snuff though.
No children, or any one under 18.

One does have reindeer, tho.... and elves ... and cookies ...

[Harold]

I would have wished that if one of my stories was going to be discussed on this forum, it would have been another (any other).

All of my stories are experiments of one sort of another, and this one is not one of my more successful experiments. As stated above, it was originally conceived as a horror story, and in that regard it succeeded perhaps too well.

Having said that, the story itself isn't the subject of the thread. Moggy originally started the thread in response to my comment regarding his review in which I expressed chagrin that this story (which is not my best work) is getting more reader response than any of my others. I wondered if that was due to the fact that I posted it in segments and that's mainly what the discussion has been about.

So, my question is, if you read the story, what prompted you to read it? Would you have read it if the origingal post had been 200k or more?

[redEva]

Originally posted by Fox
One does have reindeer, tho.... and elves ... and cookies ...

Looking for reindeer, .... and elves .... and mmmm cookies.... (well at least the story with those....)

[Fox]

Originally posted by Harold
So, my question is, if you read the story, what prompted you to read it? Would you have read it if the origingal post had been 200k or more?

1) I have read the story.
2) Curiousity based on the author's note about a frog in a frying pan caused me to select it for reading.
3) For me, the original post included the whole story ... the 200K does not matter to me. My decision to read an entire piece is based on style, coherency, and if the author has piqued my interst sufficiently that I will read the next paragraph.

;)

[Harold]

Fox,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still trying to figure out why this story got so much more attention than my previous one.

[Fox]

Perhaps because of this posting? I have 4 stories up right now, ranging from about 2900 hits to almost 11,000 hits. Go figure.

[Fox]

Hey redEva,


Looking for reindeer, .... and elves .... and mmmm cookies.... (well at least the story with those....)

The story I wrote with all those is called "Ho! A Christmas Story".

I would LOVE to read what you think of it!:D

[masterkurt]

I would like to throw my 5 cents (of Euro) in the frying pan ....

As you know I am an Italian and I live in Italy. I learned english at school and improved it working in West Africa (but with a germancompany). I believe that my understanding of written english is rather perfect (not so my ability in writing by myself).
My cultural background is quite good, coming from a humanistic oriented family (I was the black sheep that became engineer) and I enjoy reading BDSM novels in english since some years.

After these foreword, I must say that there are novels that I run through like a train, some where I start jumping whole sentences and others where I am not able to read over the first paragraph.

This depends on several factors: content, style and even tipographical format.

Just a word to the last point: stories without paragraphs and good punctuation are non readable ....

As fas as the content id concerned, this story was not among my favourites .... I like more or less consensual BDSM, no mutilations and snuff, no peculiar fetishes .... This story was very hard, snuffy, non-consensual (to a certain extent) and it contained a perticular fetish about depriving somebody of the capability of seing.

Nevertheless I read it with growing interest and appreciation.
I think it was not just a good BDSM story .... it was an excellent short novel, very well written, containing some hard, but good, SM pages (the electric torture and foot-whipping, for instance).

I agree with those who said it was a horror story .... Roald Dahl passed through my mind, and the old movie "the collectioner" ...

It was not an ordinary BDSM story, because when reading it, you could not enjoy the perils of the main character, but rather sympathize with her and suffer for her cruel destiny .... A happy ending would have been out of question ....

The story was well balanced and perfectly closed as a musical composition, while most BDSM stories, even the better ones always loose rythm and invention in the course of the narration ... and often get completely lost before the end.

Bravo, una storia emozionante e ben scritta

Kurt

[Mobius]

Story when your heroin is 6 feet under pushing up daisys in more ways then one. I thought it was a good story well done. Well developed. But come on how thick is she that she could not tell them the guy and mister hunter is one and the same. What is it like super man with the magic glassis when he puts them on no one can tell that clark is super man.

But I liked the story none the less:)