Removing underage stories

[Tiger]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3783)), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

[Eden's Girl]

I'm not at all unhappy about this change.

[redEva]

While I can not say I am happy about the change, I do support any actions You deem necessary to protect this site and to ensure that there is no problems that would result in shutting down the site.

I do not have enough information on the Red Rose case, but apparently it is not only stories that caused its downfall. While I do understand your standpoint, I am not at all happy that the fantasy is being censored. After all it is only written word and no-one has been harmed in a process.

[Blue_Monday]

I think it's always sad to see censorship get a foothold. This affects all of us, even those who don't like underage stories. First it's underage, next it will be violence, and there are some who would like to see pornography go away altogether.

Best of luck to Those In Charge of the site. It's probably a wise decision to back away from the edge just a little; being shut down completely would really be awful. I hope that someday there is a place, real or virtual, where people can be free to express all of their fantasies without causing anyone harm.

[slavecat]

what a shame..there goes half of my favorites folder...where will it end?
well you do what you have to do in order to keep the site running.

[drayman]

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. It is best to be pro-active in a situation like this and, whilst it does seem to be censorship, it will hopefully safeguard the site and the individuals.

Sadly, it seems that the politicians are at it again, 'We always know best' is a phrase that comes to mind.

We in UK have sufferred this for years, a mad man goes beserk with a shotgun, so the 'wise' politicians decide to ban all hand guns, even those registered with gun clubs. Result, we are unable to allow people to train to shoot at the the Olympics.

The 'War on Terror' seems more a way to control people's lives even more and as for Political correctness, when an elderly lady was hit by a hit and run driver recently and described the driver as a fat male, she was warned by Greater Manchester Police that this was offensive language and could not be included in the description.

The inmates are certainly taking over the asylum!!!!!

[DungeonMaster6]

CourierNew
I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. It is best to be pro-active in a situation like this and, whilst it does seem to be censorship, it will hopefully safeguard the site and the individuals.

Sadly, it seems that the politicians are at it again, 'We always know best' is a phrase that comes to mind.

We in UK have sufferred this for years, a mad man goes beserk with a shotgun, so the 'wise' politicians decide to ban all hand guns, even those registered with gun clubs. Result, we are unable to allow people to train to shoot at the the Olympics.

The 'War on Terror' seems more a way to control people's lives even more and as for Political correctness, when an elderly lady was hit by a hit and run driver recently and described the driver as a fat male, she was warned by Greater Manchester Police that this was offensive language and could not be included in the description.

The inmates are certainly taking over the asylum!!!!!

[DungeonMaster6]

CourierNew
While I don't condone censorship, there must be a line drawn when it comes to underage stories. I will neither write nor read any story that contains material that has a person less than eighteen involved. Child pornography is abhorrent and in my mind BDSM is an adult activity.

As far as handguns are concerned, some of our "wise" politicians are going overboard. Anybody has the right to defend himself from break-ins and if you ban all handguns, the only folks that will have guns will be the crooks. Don't get me wrong, guns in the wrong hands are dangerous, but that doesn't mean everybody should turn-in their pistols. That's like saying we should ban automobiles or airplanes because of unfortunate accidents and crashes.

[Escritor]

Although I'm not a fan of underage stories and wouldn't mind see them go away, I do feel liberty of expression is important and that is why I would have liked Jinn had another option to take in order to keep the site running.

However, I support the actions he's going to take, so that we can keep reading quality BDSM stories, at least those that have no underage characters in them.

Wise decision, Jinn!

[Mobius]

Jinn sadly this action is not going to be enough. The "red rose site" Was closed for violating obsinity laws. It was sited that it had content of not only children in sexual content but also content of scat beastyality and bdsm content. If you are going to censer the content for the children in sexual content then you are also going to have to censer the other content also. Threre is not going to be any thing left. all that would be left will be harlington romance novels.

The obsinity laws vary depending on were your server is based. I just plain sucks and not in a good way. only 18 months until the elections. Maybe the election of hilery will fix things

Moby

[Katmandu]

I have to agree with Moby on this, Jinn.
While we are all scared of the repurcussions of having to deal with a "holier than thou" political administration that puts pornography within the top-5-crimes-in-the-USA styled FBI, we must stand up for our rights to at least discuss these and ALL topics that suit our intellectual needs, over the Internet!!

As such, I must admit ignorance as to the possible legal repurcussions of anyone running this site, but I, for 1, vote for the concept of:

"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!!"

[karisma]

Perhaps we(you) could go around the problem and simply host the content on a server in maybe, let's say Europe? It's worked before with other types of content.

[Carnivale Ed]

At the risk of using the Alanis Morissette definition of irony, how's this for unlucky. I find this site for the first time a couple of weeks ago, think it's great, and consider sending some of my own stuff in for consideration. I write a whole new story just for the occasion and, of course, for the first time ever, I choose to feature an underage protagonist. Then I read this thread. Mum always said I was born under a bad sign. Timing, it seems, in comedy and BDSM, is everything.

That said, you gotta do what you gotta do. Introducing the comics code in the fifties helped the comic book industry head off the introduction of even more stringent government regulation, so I guess it's a smart move, but does anybody really think that it will help in this case? If they come after you, they're going to get you, underage stories or no.

I can always re-write my story, but it's a shame that I have to. I don't know what your circumstances are, Jinn, but for my two cents, fight the power, man!

[daddiebear50]

Though I question the 1st amemdment rights of the current attempts at censorship, and that this type of content will just move overseas, I'm not sure that I am sorry to see this content go. I will admit to having read some good ones, and some bad. And also why, and if it was acceptable even to myself.

Also, though I think Bush has been zealous in his efforts on this front, like the theory that he is resonsible for 9/11 when Clinton is the one who tried to shove a tomahawk up Bin Laudins ass (and missed dammit), this was started, or at least greatly advanced in the previous administration(s). Don't turn this into the political debate some are emphatic to make it. For the record, all of us Reps and Dems, need to open our eyes, understand, give a little, and elect better people. Good people are not one sided. be they polititians, or voters. And McCain/Edwards in 2008. We need the unification. I had a tough time putting one on top, but think 8yr rep 8yrs dem. Edward would get the aging I think hurt him. Not bad.

Let's be realisitic. The net has been out of control for quite some time. And as is oft said (and happenes) when it swings back, it swings back just as far or farther. I think that is probably a truer scenario than that this is just a politically motivated event. (yes politics is the tool, but not the cause)

Also, one must only look at the nightly news, to see how the need for some sort of control is necessary. There is almost a daily occurance of missing (and eventually dead) females, far too many of them are kids. If perchance this action stopped even one of these pyscos, I think most of us would gladly accept the loss of entertainment to ourselves. But..... you say. And I say, hell lets try it.

And as for the nightly news. You think Bush is pushing his agenda, try watching the 24 hour news stations. Bush is an ametuer, and they have 100 times the influence of any politician. (And they try to prove it regularly. Look at our polls, look at our feedback) They overplay any topic they like to further their ideals, and slick it up to make it tasty to the public. You don't think that they have a little to do with the outcry.

For the record, the censorship is coming on many fronts. Aol closed access to newsgroups (all) in Feb 2005, and Yahoo deleted our local munch group entirely (include all content of the listed moderators, financial, unrelated code, and personal, even their user name entirely) in May 2005. It violated their TOS by using the term BDSM, and member photos (they never specified only refered to the TOS). It's back, but BDSM is a non approved term and it is restricted in content. There are now more pics of 'pussies' than there are of human females (clothed only). A subtle protest?

So we have to endure. The good times are always followed by the bad times and vice versa. The problem here, is that I think we are getting both at the same time. We just don't like it, and want our cake and eat it to.

Just my humble opinion, add salsa to taste.
Db

[Masters_lilone]

i agree with the decision to remove the under age stories for two reasons...the first one being that underage kids have no buiness being portraed in any aspects of our lifestyle.. the second is becauseof the fact that most people thing negitively about our lifestyle so it is up to those of us
who live the lifestyle to set a positive example of how the lifestyle really is even if that example is threw our writing.... i know a little about thr red rose case and in away that site deserved to be shut down due to the underaged stuff on it ... but the goverment has no right to try to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM or any of the activities associated with the lifestyle....i feel as if as long as the people involved in the avctivity consent to it the goverment should but out

this is my two cents worth on this topic :)

[breakme]

For the protection of the site, this was a good move. Whether or not you agree that stories involving children are right or wrong, having them on this site presented a clear and present danger to all of us. I am not a fan of those stories for many reasons, but I would just choose not to read them. However, by having them available I think made the site liable to the powers that be in the current political climate.

If the anti-obscenity issue spreads to our world of BDSM between adults, i think it would be important for all of us to stand up and do something about it. Whether its donating money to the EFF or other first amendment law groups, writing politicians at the local and federal level, or in some way fighting back. I do not believe the government is going after BDSM in general, but rather the underage type of porn. While scat pictures and videos have almost always run afoul ofthe obscenity laws, I am not sure whether or not the Feds would go after a story site (and by that I mean one that is strictly stories and not picture trading as was apparently the case in Red Rose).

just my $0.02

[slave ruthie]

umm if Jinn Sir has to take steps to protect His site and His liberty by restricting what's available then it must be done! and if my stories are putting the Library at risk i'll try to amend them and remove any offending bits...

...what worries me very much, though, is that all these restrictions in the name of decency and morality are not backed up by evidence of increasing violent sexual crime. there's no clear figures to show that the number of murders, assaults or rapes has actually gone up because of the portrayal of violence or pornography in the media (including the Internet) and to suggest that the world was a safer and more law-abiding place in the past before the images and material was so available is simply rubbish. in fact there have been studies that show there's been no increase at all (please look at http://libertus.net/censor/studies2.html for more information)

whatever happened to Voltaire's famous declaration of “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”? i thought tolerance was supposed to be a mark of a civilized society where freedom of expression and thought was valued. i think we're living in very sinister times now where, under the mask of "protecting" us, our governments are increasingly acting as "predators" on their own peoples. in the UK, sites like this are likely to become illegal due to proposed laws on "violent pornography" despite there being no proof that our society will become a safer, more law-abiding place. i might not be able to read, let alone upload my stories on this wonderful site without being branded a criminal! i've also watched with dismay the morality witch-hunts that have begun to destroy the BDSM on-line community in the USA (Insex being a good example) under the guise of protecting public decency and vulnerable people. i'm sorry but i think the British and American governments in particular risk deteriorating into dangerous, un-democratic, out-of-control Dominant bullies and are fast losing any credibility in claiming the moral high ground :(

after all, you can't pass laws to stop people thinking or dreaming about things that are "bad" - and its extremely naive to think that rape, murder, violence and abuse are going to decrease just because we can't see images or read about them. in my experience the people who shout loudest about morality and decency are secretly obsessed with the same "perversions" they decry - just look at the number of politicians, policemen, judges, and religious leaders who are found out enjoying the same things we do! one of the motives behind my storywriting efforts with the Organization Series is to portray the sheer hypocrisy of people in power hiding their BDSM urges from public view - i really think its right that BDSM is the "last taboo" and we are being singled out by the moral crusaders as "the enemy" when the truth is that these desires are in ALL of us and don't mean that we are actively violent, destructive psychopaths LOL

okies, i'm going to shut up now - my Beloved Master says "that's enough and you've made your point, slave" so umm that's...umm...it!

[mind_imperator]

I, too, wholly support Jinn's decision to remove stories involving underage sex.

But.....

although I have no personal interest in stories involving underage participants, my view on this is that the only person who can claim to support free speech is he who permits his own worst enemies to freely say whatever foul and abhorrent thoughts come into their minds. This is difficult to bear when one hears Neonazis and the like propagating their dangerous misconceptions. However, i do defend their right to say what they think.
Freedom of thought, yes, but of action, no, which is why making pornographic pictures of underage subjects is rightly a criminal activity.

[H Dean]

It is regretful that such worries plague sites such as this. While I find stories including minors to be distasteful, at best, I believe that writing such tales is a healthy outlet for such fantasies. At least, it is far better than living out such fantasies. Something I think we would all agree on.

There is an ebb and flow with any situation such as this. Eventually the pendulum will swing back the other way. Unfortunately, when the pendulum strikes and if one does not have the proper backing one cannot take government censorship to a level where one can make a difference. The financial requirements for a proper defense are truly a tragic part of our legal system.

I would suggest, Jinn, that you bring your site to the eyes of the ACLU. While I am not a fan of the ACLU, due to their failure to honestly live up to their name, they can be of help should this site fall under the watchful eyes of the government. And, at the least, should the government attempt action, you might have recourse or the means to fight back should the ACLU have an eye open.

MY support for any necessary changes goes out to you, Jinn. I disagree with the actions taken by our government but I agree with the necessity you feel for removing certain content. Do as you feel necessary.

[leo9]

This is what Hitler called the "salami strategy". If you try to take the whole salami, people will fight. But they won't fight for one slice... or the next slice... or the next slice...

So you've given away one slice. What will be the next one? Snuff, probably, and then major mutilation. Then torture and heavy beating, and then what? Gay sex? Sex of any kind? Bondage?

Five years ago when Yahoo started making trouble for BDSM groups, I moved my group to a host in Denmark. This site could do the same if you really cared about your freedom. But it's easier to give in just this once... and the next time... and the next time...

If it matters, I personally don't like to read either underage or snuff stories. But I absolutely defend other people's right to read them if they choose.

[Master479]

I thought the Supreme Court had ruled on this several years ago, and stories about underage sex are protected under the First Admendment. Pictures, etc., are not protected.

Not that I like the underage stories - I don't mind them being taken off the site - but they should not have to be. I have not been to the other site that started this, but if they mixed anything with the stories, that is probably the problem.

[Chuckdom19]

I have to agree with Moby on this, Jinn.
While we are all scared of the repurcussions of having to deal with a "holier than thou" political administration that puts pornography within the top-5-crimes-in-the-USA styled FBI, we must stand up for our rights to at least discuss these and ALL topics that suit our intellectual needs, over the Internet!!

As such, I must admit ignorance as to the possible legal repurcussions of anyone running this site, but I, for 1, vote for the concept of:

"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!!"


Hear, hear!! I could not agree more strongly. Where does it end?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

You know what? Fuck it. I like the young code. I'll come out and admit it. I like writing stories about younger teens getting their asses handed to them (sometimes literally) on a platter. I like reading stories about the high school bitch getting what's coming to her. I like the young code, period.

Granted, I DO NOT like to read stories involving 6 year olds or eleven year olds, etc. But I see nothing wrong with stories involving 16 year olds, or even 14 year olds. Hey Jinn, host your site in Canada where the legal age is 14. Fuck the archaic American government.

And while I find child porn to be an intolerable crime, I could give a shit less what people write about "children" in stories. Why? Because they don't fucking EXIST! They're all figments of the authors' imaginations! No ACTUAL person is being harmed. No ACTUAL child is being abused. So fucking what?

If the young code is removed, then the nc, mc, snuff, incest and extreme codes might just as well be removed, too. They're all just as "indecent" under the unconstitutional laws being enforced by federal, state and local law enforcement across the US today. What makes any of you think this site is any less likely to get shut down for depicting stories of rape, murder and gory disembowelings than it is for stories containing "underage" characters?

If anybody wants me, I'll be posting my stories on a UK BDSM server where people will be able to read them.

[Alex Bragi]

Let's quit pussy footing around here, ok? Many of the stories posted at that site were to satisfy the perverted fantasies of infantophiles, that's my understanding of the issue.

You can veil it with all kinds of terminology, young, under age, etc.. but it's much more than that, and it is what it is.

[Carnivale Ed]

Let's quit pussy footing around here, ok? Many of the stories posted at that site were to satisfy the perverted fantasies of infantophiles, that's my understanding of the issue.

You can veil it with all kinds of terminology, young, under age, etc.. but it's much more than that, and it is what it is.

Given the subject matter, I'm not really sure I want to wade any further into this debate, but I feel compelled to, because I'm not sure it is actually as simple as you would make it, Alex.

The point's been well made above, but it bears repeating. We're talking about fiction. No child is actually being harmed here. That distiction, to me, is everything. This is, ostensibly, a site for writers of the particular genre broadly defined as BDSM, and the people who enjoy reading such. A section of that audience may, indeed, be 'infantophiles' as you claim, but to characterise them as 'perverted' is almost meaningless in this arena, given all of the other taboo subjects featured on the story site. They can all be interpreted as perverted, it just depends on who's doing the interpreting. As long as no real children are involved, a person's particular fetish is none of my business.

I guess my point is this - I've spent my life reading everything I can. In my mind, I've been to Roissy with O, to NY with Holden, and to the depths of Hell with Dante. I just find it sad that now there's a place I can't go, no matter how distasteful I might have found the trip.

'It is what it is?' It's a limit on my imagination, that's what it is, the one thing that should have no limits.

Hope I haven't offended.

I'm up to four cents, now, I think.

CE

[Woodchuck]

I was actually wondering why bother removing it all when everything on here is fiction anyway.

I remember reading books about underage people "hooking up" when I was in Jr High. I don't think we should be worried just because of the medium we are using. What we should be doing is preparing to help aid those who will be subject to unjust restriction.

[Alex Bragi]

Hi Ed,

How's thing on the other side of the island?

No, you haven't offended me in the least—I like to hear other people's ideas and thoughts. I'm broad-minded kind of lady, however, on this particular subject, I have to tell you, I'm the proverbial cyclops and I won't bend.

Certainly, I understand what you saying here, but I simply can't agree with it and my reasons are well documented at this site on other threads.

I would like to draw your attention to the notorious case of Fred and Rosemary West. In an article I read recently, one of their daughters is quoted as saying she refused to talk about the details of her abuse, not so much because of the mental anguish it causes her but, because she "doesn't want to give ideas to other perverts…" I think that pretty much sums up why I refuse condone kiddy porn—in any form.

[Carnivale Ed]

Hi Alex,

Things are wet on the this side of the island, but then, aren't they always?

Your point is well taken. I suppose I'm just wondering what we'd be missing out on if zero tolerance of certain subject matter had always applied to works of fiction - Lolita, 120 Days of Sodom, Romeo & Juliet? I may be giving, to some of the stories on the site, more credit than they deserve, but, in their own way, they're still works of art. They can still teach us something about ourselves, if only because they are so socially repugnant.

Example : Before coming here, I don't think I'd read a BDSM story featuring minors. Never occurred to me that I should. But I've now read 'Brotherly Love', a tale of incest and slavery between two eleven year old twins, and have been awed by it. There's romance and tenderness in this story that, given what it's about, I would never have believed possible. Something ugly has been made beautiful, if only in my mind. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this tale is even remotely plausible. It's just that, for me, the literary eye-opening it gave me trumps any disgust at the actual events portrayed.

Given the nature of this site, it just seems ridiculously arbitrary to draw a line in the sand and say, "Here, but no further." The only rationale I can see for doing so, is for the reason it has been done here. To avert political interference of a perceived wrongdoing. Then, at least, the censorship serves a purpose beyond the maintenance of a morality that, while appropriate in the real world, has no relevance in fiction.

And, as for giving perverts ideas, I'm not convinced they need any. Entertainment, whether literary, visual or auditory, can only add details to somebody's sick desire, not create the desire in the first place. It's like blaming 'The Matrix' for Columbine because they wore long, dark coats. Specious reasoning.

All that said, though, I completely respect your opinion. I just think the potential of what we're giving up might be of far greater value than what we think we're gaining.

Agree to disagree?

Up to six cents, now. This is getting expensive.

Carnivale Ed, never in his life believing he'd, one day, be defending 'kiddie porn.'

[jj_frap]

The only thing enemies of freedom understand is the barrel of a gun.

I don't give a fuck of its Beijing, Moscow, Washington, repressive multinationals, or religious wackos: The only thing they use is violence, and we're not going to win the battle against our fascist, Stalinist, and theocratic enemies by playing nice with them.

[daddiebear50]

JJ frap;

Study history. Non violence has always, (at least in recent history) been more effective than violence. (Dr ML King was the epitomy of this and look what he accomplished, and an offered scenario in Claney's Ryan series (do't remember which one) sugggested a time when the Palistinian figured it out ala a Kent State affair (guess they don't read Clancey) is great food for thought.

[Alex Bragi]

Ed, sure we can agree to disagree.

I don't always agree with my friends, but that's often what makes them even more interesting to know. Please consider me one of yours.

:)

[Carnivale Ed]

I don't always agree with my friends, but that's often what makes them even more interesting to know.

I couldn't agree more.

I will, indeed, consider you a friend, and will be most honoured if you consent to do the same.

Thank goodness I can stop defending child porn, even if it is of the fictional variety. I was beginning to feel icky. Perhaps that, most of all, finally proves your point?

CE :)

[lex ludite]

Jinn has to do what he thinks he has to do; so do I. Ever since I started to post to this site the guidelines on minimum age were 13. Now out of the clear blue sky everything has to be revised to conform to the latest witch hunt of the born again, lunatic right wing of this benighted country that has taken control thanks to the lack of any effective resistance on the part of the American people.
I, for one, have no intention of changing a word I've written! Jinn should feel free to take down all my postings in the interests of saving his own hide, and income, I might add, since there are better things for me to do with my time than revise almost every single piece of work I've posted. It's been a lot of fun, but this is stupid and very dangerous. The USA is truly becoming a nation of sheep.

Lex Ludite, Jethro Jodhpur, Rolf Palsy

[Mad Lews]

I guess this means that the "Story of O" with 15 year old Natalie would be OK since she doesn't actually do it, all she does is watch.
"Return to the Chateau" is out because Nat and Sir S make it in a brief paragraph.
A fortunate choice, the original story was much better than the sequel, Good thing Pauline Reage isn't an active writer on this forum, and come to think of it She's dead now so we don't have to worry about it.
I'm sanguine with an elimination of kiddy porn, it never did anything for me.
If you're mesmerized with youth you can describe it (teenager) without dating it (18). I don't think we'll need to state that all fictional characters are at least 18 fictional years old.
Come to think of it I did that in one of my stories but had to take it all back cause Bruno was only 6, though that was 42 in dog years so he was an adult right?

Hope that clears things up...

Mad Lews

[Carnivale Ed]

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

Uh-uh. Under the new rules, Natalie's out of luck.

CE.

[erotic_nibbles]

Jinn you and I have discussed this many times, so you know I support you fully in this to, hopefully, keep the site up and going.

Bottom line is this....reality check people....say what you want, have your opinions, etc.....reality is that child porn in ANY form is a HOT HOT HOT button in the USA today......if the site was taken down for it and Jinn fought it he may win in court, he may not...who knows really.....but to the bottom line here.....the site would be down meanwhile...and just where we would all go huh?.....and I'm not talking about the story library here....I'm talking about the Forums wherein we all hang out together talking and sharing views that go way beyond BDSM into friendships that some have even extended into meeting in real life

And for those of you that say, "....full steam ahead..."....well I support that to, but I would also say that maybe you should considering creating your own site and hanging your bare butt out there for the government to take whacks at :)...and I say that with all kindness....seriously if you feel that strongly about it I say go for it!....and I know those of you that said that also said you support Jinn and what he thinks is right for this site :)

Meanwhile this site does belong to Jinn....he had the concept for it, he built it and he currently maintains the whole of it with little to no help from anyone here and I for one am extremely grateful.....so thank you very much Jinn!....I say we all owe you all the support we can give, in whatever you think is right to keep the site going....especially since we are the ones that benefit from it and yet it wouldn't be any of us sitting in a chair next to a Defense Attorney in Federal court

Ok have at me.....lol....I can take it.....<-----runs and hides now :D

~~nibbles~~

[Sabrina]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3783)), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

Whilst I have no wish to jeopardise this site, I would strongly oppose censorship on such a trivial issue as under age stories, for this is a fantasy site and ALL fantasies are valid. I might also remind Uncle Sam that in most countries, 16 and not 18 is the age of consent. Anyway, I hope that we all know the difference between fantasy and reality.

As a general comment, it always amazes me how puritanical the American establishment is over sexual issues, whilst they find quite graphic sado-masochistic themes totally acceptable. Maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities re. 'guns-v-roses' Just a thought.

Sabrina

[chromedome11]

JJ frap;

Study history. Non violence has always, (at least in recent history) been more effective than violence. (Dr ML King was the epitomy of this and look what he accomplished, and an offered scenario in Claney's Ryan series (do't remember which one) sugggested a time when the Palistinian figured it out ala a Kent State affair (guess they don't read Clancey) is great food for thought.

Your idealism is admirable, daddiebear, but unfortunately will not help those who need it most.

Non-violence works in democracies. In fact, if you resort to violence against a democracy, then you know your cause is unjust.

Non-violence in a dictarorship is totally ineffective. It's only going to get you tortured, killed, or both. The only thing dictators understand is force. If you're not willing to support toppling dictatorships with force, your words are hollow, and you're deserting those you profess to care about.

[Kaori-san]

Jinn you and I have discussed this many times, so you know I support you fully in this to, hopefully, keep the site up and going.

Bottom line is this....reality check people....say what you want, have your opinions, etc.....reality is that child porn in ANY form is a HOT HOT HOT button in the USA today......if the site was taken down for it and Jinn fought it he may win in court, he may not...who knows really.....but to the bottom line here.....the site would be down meanwhile...and just where we would all go huh?.....and I'm not talking about the story library here....I'm talking about the Forums wherein we all hang out together talking and sharing views that go way beyond BDSM into friendships that some have even extended into meeting in real life

And for those of you that say, "....full steam ahead..."....well I support that to, but I would also say that maybe you should considering creating your own site and hanging your bare butt out there for the government to take whacks at :)...and I say that with all kindness....seriously if you feel that strongly about it I say go for it!....and I know those of you that said that also said you support Jinn and what he thinks is right for this site :)

Meanwhile this site does belong to Jinn....he had the concept for it, he built it and he currently maintains the whole of it with little to no help from anyone here and I for one am extremely grateful.....so thank you very much Jinn!....I say we all owe you all the support we can give, in whatever you think is right to keep the site going....especially since we are the ones that benefit from it and yet it wouldn't be any of us sitting in a chair next to a Defense Attorney in Federal court

Ok have at me.....lol....I can take it.....<-----runs and hides now :D

~~nibbles~~

:applaus: Well said nibbles :) I agree... it is Jinn's site and his decision, and this site (particually the forums) is an amazing place to meet and greet such nice people from all walks of life.

[Rocky]

Looks like I'm going to be spending the next few days downloading stories to my hard drive, and then revising a couple of my previously posted stories.

A pity, because I do enjoy seeing how many people are reading my stuff; I supposed I could post to newsgroups, but then you really have no idea whether people like it or not.

[bgirl69]

I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.
To echo other comments, the last thing we want is for others on the "outside" to point that finger and say, "See, SEE... I told you all those perverts were BAD. All they want to do is rape children!" By leaving the children out and restricting stories to adults, the air of "between consenting adults" is present.
I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and certainly can give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way). If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!

[lex ludite]

I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.
To echo other comments, the last thing we want is for others on the "outside" to point that finger and say, "See, SEE... I told you all those perverts were BAD. All they want to do is rape children!" By leaving the children out and restricting stories to adults, the air of "between consenting adults" is present.
I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and certainly can give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way). If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!
For your information the intent is to remove all stories featuring anyone below the age of 18, even if they are merely spectators, which is totally ridiculous! Jinn would be a whole lot smarter if he got rid of the illustrated stuff such as To Obey,which is what will catch the eye of the inquisitors.

[Carnivale Ed]

I do keep getting drawn back into this thread, don't I?

I think it's important to say, though, there are really two arguments going on here. The argument in reality and the argument in principle.

The argument in reality is simple. Underage stories make this site a larger target than it might otherwise be, and Jinn is entitled to protect it, and himself, as he sees fit. As erotic_nibbles so ably pointed out, it's not our necks on the line.

For the argument in principle, though:


I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and can certainly give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way)
This, to me, seems a pretty common position on this thread, but one I don't fully understand. It's all just a matter of your point of view. What would a conservative member of the far right, for instance, have to say about almost all of the other stories on this site? I'm guessing he wouldn't care too much if they were all consigned to the digital bonfire. If you can't bring yourself to defend something you personally find objectionable, especially when no one's really being harmed, then how can you expect to be defended in turn if somebody else finds what you enjoy, equally objectionable? Should only the most conservative members of society decide what you and I may or may not read? Should only the least offensive material ever make it to print?


If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!
This is the BDSM Library. Pursuing that goal may serve the BDSM side of that title, but not the other. As writers and readers, should we not also be concerned with preserving artistic freedom, no matter what the subject matter? Isn't a love of literature, and where it can take us, not also a reason why we're all here? Censorship, even of underage stories, has an implication that extends far beyond the borders of any one community, even a BDSM one.

There's no easy answer here, I know. I guess I just didn't want to go quietly into the night.

CE.

[delish]

I'm so disappointed in my country. I'm disappointed in what Bush is doing to it, and I'm vastly disappointed that the media seems content to sugar-coat everything and allow it to continue. Land of the free and home of the brave? I won't be standing for the national anthem until that's true again, and I certainly won't be pledging allegience to any damn flag. So. Disappointed.

Three kinds of people are commenting here. There are people who were squicked out by young stories, and there are people who support Jinn and there are people who are disgusted it has come to this.

Jinn's gotta do what Jinn's gotta do. But those of you who are relieved at the loss of a category need to re-examine why you come here. As so many others posted, what IS next? Will it be snuff that's banned? Cannibalism? Religious stories? Because as we all know, religion is also a hot button in American culture. Anyone who doesn't think it's fucked up that America is imposing restrictions on our right to say what we want and feel what we want and believe what we want is fucked up. It's one of the basic tenets of America's entire reason for existing. It's what America has proclaimed loudly and obnoxiously to the rest of the world. "We're the best, because we're TRULY free, unlike the rest of you schmucks!" (Not my words, just the impression America has given throughout the years.)

Just a thought, but doesn't today remind you a bit of McCarthyism? If you disagree with popular opinion, you're a communist! Today all you have to do is substitute "communist" with "terrorist", and that's that.

America scares me, because Americans elected this asshole. Thanks, fucknuts. Who are we going to pull out of our ass next time?

Back to the subject at hand: This sucks. I think Jinn's hands are tied (and not in a good way) and I think that is terrifying. It might be time to investigate another country that really does support personal freedoms. Or, at the very least, doesn't insist that they ARE all about freedom, while slowly taking away our basic rights.

Call up the firemen, because Big Brother is watching. My tone may be flippant, but you think I'm kidding? Because I'm not.

/rant

Best of luck with the war against terror-er... obscenity. The terrorists are attacking by way of obscene internet writing! Quick, tear down the Harry Potter fanfic before somebody notices!

Okay. Now, really. /rant

Please note that this isn't a personal attack on anyone who posted here. I'm just angry in general.

[vandemir2]

I loved practicing/reading about BDSM before I was 18. I'm 21 now, but that doesn't mean that I don't find what I did then erotic.

I find censorship of "young" erotica absurd for that very reason. Maybe some of you never had a single sexual thought before you were 18, but I strongly doubt that is the case for all of you.

Ya, so "exploitation of children" has another aspect. The part about some "children" considering themselves adults, or at the very least mature.

That said, I haven't had sex with anyone under 18 since around when I turned 18.

I do find the idea of sex with babies and children disgusting, much like scat, snuff, castration, and most other kinds of mutilation. But to paraphrase someone above, 'I'll still defend your right to write about it'

I'm rambling on. My point is that underage sex was one of the best parts of being under-age, and that was real life! What harm can come from a few stories?

[Darkside]

Hi I`m an Dutch male and I follow the story`s for years now and they gave me lot of sattisfaction :p I don`t like story`s about canabalism mutalation
Im one of the most softhearted males walking this planet I did encounter story`s that are way over the top at first they made mine head turn and I stop reading further now I can read them and bits of it enjoy even I think those story`s are verry cruel but for me They have the right to exist because reality is much wurse I also believe that the justice system in mine country does more harm than the criminals itself yours is even wurse I know that lots of children have sex when there thirteen overhere and thats reality !and
accepted! With the net and television popstars movies etc corupting them ! I agree with you that you need to protect this site I`m grateful to all the people who wrote those stories I did like so much and some did contain underage people
I never saw an reason to became an member now I just did Thanks to all that put mine fantasies on paper as I would like to read them Ashtree Dari Ann Gray Freddy and manny more buit this wil not end by only underage story`s
mark mine words and its an damm shame !!!!
Darkside

[Darkside]

Hi I`m an Dutch male and I follow the story`s for years now and they gave me lot of sattisfaction :p I don`t like story`s about canabalism mutalation
Im one of the most softhearted males walking this planet I did encounter story`s that are way over the top at first they made mine head turn and I stop reading further now I can read them and bits of it enjoy even I think those story`s are verry cruel but for me They have the right to exist because reality is much wurse I also believe that the justice system in mine country does more harm than the criminals itself yours is even wurse I know that lots of children have sex when there thirteen overhere and thats reality !and
accepted! With the net and television popstars movies etc corupting them ! I agree with you that you need to protect this site I`m grateful to all the people who wrote those stories I did like so much and some did contain underage people
I never saw an reason to became an member now I just did Thanks to all that put mine fantasies on paper as I would like to read them Ashtree Dari Ann Gray Freddy and manny more but this wil not end by only underage story`s
mark mine words and its an damm shame !!!!
Darkside

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.

You're right. A child cannot consent. Good thing there aren't any of them in ANY of the stories posted herein. They're only words. Made up pieces of someone's imagination.

And while we're on the topic of what's NOT BDSM, let's not forget the following story codes that also have no grounds in ANY BDSM relationship:

incest
snuff
high school (goes with that "young" code)
sci-fi
reluctant
mc
blackmail
torture
nc
extreme
violent

So, then, shall we not also remove all stories with these codes, too, in order to keep with the "SSC BDSM philosophy?" Or do we allow the artists and authors here some leeway to write FANTASY pieces that people with OPEN MINDS can read and enjoy?

In my view, you cannot have one without the other. If your pitch is that the young code doesn't involve any "real" BDSM, then you must also agree, by default, that all of those other codes must go, too. For, certainly, no one in a "real" SSC BDSM relationship would involve themselves with any of the activities depicted by those codes, would they?

Or perhaps it would just be easier to give reality a shot and realize that these are works of FICTION, featuring fictitious characters in fictitious settings performing fictitious acts, and that no REAL people are being involved in any way. Or would that be too easy?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

If you can't bring yourself to defend something you personally find objectionable, especially when no one's really being harmed, then how can you expect to be defended in turn if somebody else finds what you enjoy, equally objectionable? Should only the most conservative members of society decide what you and I may or may not read? Should only the least offensive material ever make it to print?

Indeed. An excellent point.

I, for one, find bestiality to be abhorrent. However, I do not shout from the faters that bestiality stories should all be removed because I don't personally care for them. I just don't read them. Easy as all that.

But if the legality is the issue, then it should be noted that nearly ever state in the US has laws against bestiality, too. I think Arkansas is the only state in which it is presently legal to fuck a goat. Shall we not remove the bestiality code as well?

[Kaori-san]

IMO:

Fine, it is disgusting to have the idea of a full grown man having sex with a girl of 8 or 9 years. I see nothing wrong with the tales of the 16 year old high school girls. Most teens already have had sex by then anyway.

The rules off SSC are applied to people practicing BDSM, however a story is fantasy. Most are merely what people think about, not what anyone would or probably could actually do. That is; in many ways, a better thing to do, read or write about child sex, beastality, rape etc. than to go out and actually do it. Stories can provide a good escape for people and at least people are reading about it instead of doing it.

Now; however, this is Jinn's site, if he wants to remove underage stories he can. I support the decission with that.
Think about it this way, you either have the site without the underage stories or you let the government find the site with them and close it down. Take out a few of the stories or loose everything.

Hopefully when there is a re-election things will ease up; but until then it is in the best interests of the site to get rid of the underage stories.

[nova]

Did anyone else see this:

'October 20, 2005 - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity prosecutions...'

The full article is here (http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/2005/102005ObscenityWave.htm)

If they take this to its ultimate conclusion, no story site hosted within the US is safe...As usual, it is politicians looking for a soft target and a quick boost to their popularity, but it goes deeper than that. Start censoring the written word for the so-called "public good" and that's yet another freedom quietly eroded...it truly makes me shudder.

[jj_frap]

I was 19 or 20 the first time I came here, and a few of the stories I read involved juniors and seniors in high school.

Living in a jurisdiction where students starting prior to 1999 more often than not stayed a 5th year in high school, I didn't see anything odd or immoral in what I was doing. (To be fair though, my definition of immoral involves things like taking sides during the Cold War rather than saying "Fuck them all. I don't want to die for some worthless fascist in Washington or Moscow.")

As a Canadian, I watch what happens South of the border (and in Beijing, for that matter...I don't want them touching our oil reserves. I want our oil industry nationalisedm but I'd rather it belong to the private sector than to a foreign government intent on plundering our resources...Heh...And because I'm fascinated by Sino-Taiwanese politics and also because the politician I admire most is leftist Hong Kong democracy activist Leung Kwok-hung. Hugo Chavez comes in a close second, and I'm very keen on Spain's government as well. :D) very carefully, both selfishly (as a profitable small-stakes Internet poker player and as a regular reader of online erotica) and selflessly (As a committed secularist, civil libertarian, and social democrat), and I'm scared as all Hell of what's happening.

Thankfully, more Americans than not are starting to share my fears:

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateDirectionofCountry1005SortbyNetDirection.ht m

Hell, even the Mor(m)ons are on board. I guess if you pray to Mormo enough, you really can become as smart as Ken Jennings. :D (I've had a serious hate-on for the bastards due to the cult's history of White supremacism and extreme social conservatism.)

As for what I read now? Mostly F/m romantic, with some M/f stuff and some non-romantic F/m stuff whenever I see something particularly interesting.

[lex ludite]

Did anyone else see this:

'October 20, 2005 - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity prosecutions...'

The full article is here (http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/2005/102005ObscenityWave.htm)

If they take this to its ultimate conclusion, no story site hosted within the US is safe...As usual, it is politicians looking for a soft target and a quick boost to their popularity, but it goes deeper than that. Start censoring the written word for the so-called "public good" and that's yet another freedom quietly eroded...it truly makes me shudder.

Based on what the grand inquisitor said, it appears that what Jinn is suggesting is too little and perhaps too late. I wonder who is advising him?If I were in his shoes I'd have to seriously consider shutting down the site and totally revamping it to weather the gathering storm. My guess is that he'd have to unilaterally close out well over fifty percent of the current material now archieved within the BDSM Library. There is no way that he can realistically force authors to totally gut their works just to conform to this latest bout of idiocy. On the other hand with the new Bush Supreme Court, it may very well be possible to effectively eliminate free speech in this country, a chilling thought. Does anyone remember the old Upton Sinclair book entitled "It Can't Happen Here"? Well children, you are witnessing the beginning of it happening here!

[Guiller]

Hi, i think i look at this a bit fron aside, Im from spain ( so englosha is no t my primary language, Sorry for the errors)

I agree with jinn in that he has to do what he has to do, (give me please some time to dl all to the hd) as is his personal money and reputation what is at stake if police decides this site is to be taken down.

However, i think if the forces of law look a t the site child stories or not the site will go down im sorry about that but i think that is the truth. please seek a hosting out of the US asap if you want the site up for a long time.

Sorry guys, but you are letting them decide what you can think or fantasize about, that is my opinion.

Hugs all :)

[Kaori-san]

Hmm.. the points about free will are true as well.

Though it is wise to get rid of the stories to protect the site; the gradual, or not so gradual wearing away of our rights is worrying.
Just like Guiller said 'you are letting them decide what you can think or fantasize about'. That is definatly something to think about, a new law can be put it to stop crime, anti-social behaviour, violence etc which just controls what we do. But the new laws now, are targeting more what we think about, trying to stop and BDSM thoughts by shutting down things to do with it.

Since America is supposed to be the most fair and free country in the world.. why is that laws can be put into place that get rid of so many rights.
Then there is the UK, another supposedly free country where the same is happening.
It really raises questions about the state of the world today.
When government in free and fair democracies are trying to change our rights and thoughts and fantasies it makes you wonder, is it really a free and fair democracy?

[csr]

You're right. A child cannot consent. Good thing there aren't any of them in ANY of the stories posted herein. They're only words. Made up pieces of someone's imagination.

And while we're on the topic of what's NOT BDSM, let's not forget the following story codes that also have no grounds in ANY BDSM relationship:

incest
snuff
high school (goes with that "young" code)
sci-fi
reluctant
mc
blackmail
torture
nc
extreme
violent

So, then, shall we not also remove all stories with these codes, too, in order to keep with the "SSC BDSM philosophy?" Or do we allow the artists and authors here some leeway to write FANTASY pieces that people with OPEN MINDS can read and enjoy?

In my view, you cannot have one without the other. If your pitch is that the young code doesn't involve any "real" BDSM, then you must also agree, by default, that all of those other codes must go, too. For, certainly, no one in a "real" SSC BDSM relationship would involve themselves with any of the activities depicted by those codes, would they?

Or perhaps it would just be easier to give reality a shot and realize that these are works of FICTION, featuring fictitious characters in fictitious settings performing fictitious acts, and that no REAL people are being involved in any way. Or would that be too easy?A very good point TG... I agree with what you are saying completely. However, aren't you just preaching to the converted? Here we all enjoy erotic fantasy--of one flavour or another--but what our opinions are of whether or not fiction is harmful don't really count in the long run. What counts is whether or not the stories are enough to provoke people who have the authority and power to cause troubles for Jinn.

Personally, any story with a 12-yr-old in it nauseates me... but a story about a kidnapped 17-yr-old is titillating. Both situations are illegal in real life, but one of those will invoke boundless rage and furor in most adults. You are right, Jinn can't take out every single story that involves something that is against R/L laws... that would be ridiculous, but I think making smaller changes to limit the chances that he becomes a target makes sense.

I see a lot of anti-censorship feeling in this thread... and I agree with you all 100%. I abhor censorship like any other kinkster, but in Jinn vs. the Gov't who do you think will win? I admire people who make a stand for what they believe in... but I like this site. I also believe strongly that I should have the right to smoke marijuana... and I'll do it walking down the street, or walking through the park without embarrassment...BUT, I don't to it in the mall, or on the steps of the local police station. I'd like to, but you have to be sensible sometimes in order to retain (most of) your freedom.

[lex ludite]

You're right. A child cannot consent. Good thing there aren't any of them in ANY of the stories posted herein. They're only words. Made up pieces of someone's imagination.

And while we're on the topic of what's NOT BDSM, let's not forget the following story codes that also have no grounds in ANY BDSM relationship:

incest
snuff
high school (goes with that "young" code)
sci-fi
reluctant
mc
blackmail
torture
nc
extreme
violent

So, then, shall we not also remove all stories with these codes, too, in order to keep with the "SSC BDSM philosophy?" Or do we allow the artists and authors here some leeway to write FANTASY pieces that people with OPEN MINDS can read and enjoy?

In my view, you cannot have one without the other. If your pitch is that the young code doesn't involve any "real" BDSM, then you must also agree, by default, that all of those other codes must go, too. For, certainly, no one in a "real" SSC BDSM relationship would involve themselves with any of the activities depicted by those codes, would they?

Or perhaps it would just be easier to give reality a shot and realize that these are works of FICTION, featuring fictitious characters in fictitious settings performing fictitious acts, and that no REAL people are being involved in any way. Or would that be too easy?

Ever since I started posting to this site these codes have been in existence. Naturally if they are there, it is only fair to assume that stories addressing these topics are acceptable to the site. Any argument with the logic so far? Now Jinn is proposing to remove the "young" code. What did young ever mean when the lower limit as defined by Jinn was thirteen! Guess what, most authors just put down "teen", since it's an issue of how many children can dance on the head of a pervert. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and Jinn still doesn't get it. He has to radically revise the codes and make sure that every author understands that there can be nothing outside of them. In parallel with that he has to pull out every story that violates the new guidelines. As for revising those being pulled out; that is moot at this point. I personally could care less, since I'm on record as refusing to comply with self censorship after the fact. Finally he has to absolutely refuse to post anything that is illustrated. I sit here in disbelief as Jinn crusades against "young" stories and is too busy and short-sighted to take down something like "To Obey" which will be the poster child when the inquisitors come for his site, pocketbook and personal freedom.

[heycarrieanne]

While I understand the idea that 1st amendment rights are primary to what makes the US great, nevertheless, child porn is disgusting on any level. Research has shown that pedos feed on stories and photos. They are not curable and they abuse children.

You can try to make yourself feel better about these kinds of stories by saying "they are just stories and don't hurt anyone," but you are only kidding yourself.

Thank you for removing them from this site.

[shdowrnnr]

Is this "filtering" of stories the reason there hasn't been an update on the front page with new stories?

[lex ludite]

Is this "filtering" of stories the reason there hasn't been an update on the front page with new stories?

Who knows? The site has been screwed up for better than two weeks, and no one seems to have noticed, which tells you something about the rank and file that claim to belong to this site. My guess is that the webmaster is running so scared right now, he hasn't the faintest idea about what to do. For example he claimed in his missive dated Oct. 14th, that within a week authors would be notified about which of their stories were to be removed from the site. That obviously has not happened.
I also happen to think that he has been given some very bad advice about what is attracting the feds to sites such as his. If you read the Gonzalez handout, and he's the hatchet man for this witch hunt, you'll notice that child porn, whatever that is defined to be in this day and age, is not on his list of interests when it comes to the written word.
I think that Jinn just listened to the whinners and holier than thou types who spend most of their time wringing their lily white hands at those of us who are providing most of the muscle for this site, and bought into their agenda. Now he's screwed, because that doesn't seem to be the agenda of the guy running the witchhunt. What is however, is the stock and trade of this site. So it looks like we, the readers and authors, are the ones getting screwed. Also overlooked in the noise is the fact that Jinn's livlihood is hanging in the balance. If he has to gut the site to appease the feds he has to find some new way to make an honest living, and that probably means no BDSM Library since his advertisers will be running as scared as he is. It would be very interesting to hear from a few of the authors who are also hanging in the balance.

[heycarrieanne]

When I first started reading the stories here, if I remember correctly, a woman was doing the updating. Sometimes it HAS been weeks in between updates, so I just look and see when new stories are up and read what I think might be exciting to me. It's not that big of a deal if it is a couple of weeks betwwen postings.

:strip1:

I can always entertain myself!

[lex ludite]

When I first started reading the stories here, if I remember correctly, a woman was doing the updating. Sometimes it HAS been weeks in between updates, so I just look and see when new stories are up and read what I think might be exciting to me. It's not that big of a deal if it is a couple of weeks betwwen postings.

:strip1:

I can always entertain myself!

Jinn and I discussed this matter at some length about six months ago, and he agreed to start posting on a fairly regular schedule, twice a week, usually on Wednesday and Saturday. He had followed this agreement rather scrupulously until about two weeks ago. Since according to him, the number of postings submitted often is greater than his maximum of 25 per change, it would be odd indeed if this cessation in posting didn't have something to do with the current brouhaha over the impending move on sites such as this by the feds.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

While I understand the idea that 1st amendment rights are primary to what makes the US great, nevertheless, child porn is disgusting on any level. Research has shown that pedos feed on stories and photos.

I know. It's just terrible that they have to find an outlet like stories to satiate their desires. So, why don't we take those stories away from them so they have to go look for real kids to hurt and abuse instead of just reading about fictional ones.

Gosh, that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?


They are not curable and they abuse children.

I don't really believe the curability of child sex offenders is at the issue here, rendering this bit of information moot.


You can try to make yourself feel better about these kinds of stories by saying "they are just stories and don't hurt anyone," but you are only kidding yourself.

Thank you for removing them from this site.

Oh indeed? So, again, by the same token, if I read "The Scarlet Letter" then I shall be compelled to commit adultery? Is that correct? What will happen to me if I read "Silence of the Lambs," or "Harry Potter," or "Tom Sawyer?" Will that make me have the compulsion to become a serial killer? Will that give me the compulsion to begin practicing sorcery? Will that compel me to racism?

So, my question is: Who's kidding whom?

[Carnivale Ed]

Real Life. Fiction. Two completely separate things.

Real life = Do what ya gotta do.

Fiction = Do what ya always wanted to do.

[Alex Bragi]

A very good point TG... I agree with what you are saying completely. However, aren't you just preaching to the converted?

Don't mean '..preaching to the perverted'? :p

And, it's funny but that's exactly what I was thinking--why bother bitching here?

[Carnivale Ed]

Symbolism?

I think I'd feel better about this whole thread if everyone said, "We disagree with the decision in principle, but understand why you find it necessary, Jinn."

It's the people who aren't objecting because they just don't like underage stories that I find hard to comprehend. It's like they haven't followed the logic through. It's all perverse in someone's eyes.

And congratulating Jinn for making the decision? Bizaare. He's already stated that this has almost nothing to do with the actual content and everything to do with the political climate.

CE.

[orchidsoul]

Symbolism?
It's the people who aren't objecting because they just don't like underage stories that I find hard to comprehend. It's like they haven't followed the logic through. It's all perverse in someone's eyes.

As strange and odd as it may be considering the site we're on, to some, it is beyond perverse and just plain wrong for underage (children) stories. I won't lie... I'm one of them. I don't understand the attraction and I never will... and if you asked anyone that knows me they would say I can understand almost anything regardless if I agree. I at very least see both sides. I just don't see both sides to children involved in a sexual fantasy. Then again, I'm someone who doesn't like fantasy that couldn't turn into reality, so maybe that's why? But honestly, regardless of the specific kind of story that Jinn felt he had to regulate/censor/eliminate on this site, I wouldn't argue because it's not my site. It's not my ass on the line.

sorry. Hope that helps explain a little though.

[Carnivale Ed]

Hope that helps explain a little though.
I get why you don't like underage stories, I really do. I sympathise, they make me uncomfortable, too. Ultimately, though, it's completely irrelevant. Not liking something in fiction, detesting it even, is not a good enough reason to support a ban, especially considering what the 'outside world' may well think of the rest of the stories on this site.

By all means, if you can't stand even the thought of a child engaged in a sex act, don't read the stories that feature them. But, please, don't consider it a positive move that a fantasy, no matter how repulsive, is being censored.

Essentially, you're condoning an act simply because it doesn't, immediately, affect you. But what happens when it does? Will it be acceptable for someone else to ban your favourite story, simply because they consider your tastes 'beyond perverse'? And, I'm sure, there are many who do. Should they have that right? Unless you are, in theory, prepared to sacrifice the site in its entirety, then, in principle, you cannot support this ban.

Don't be pleased something is gone just because you didn't like it. Think about why it's gone, and then mourn it's loss.

I took no offence at anything you said, orchid, I hope the same is true in return. Also, I've said many times now, Jinn must do what is right for him. In that, he has my support.

CE

[Kaori-san]

More interesting points... but some of closing down and re-designing it?! ....

However, will closing down the child stories solve anything in the end; the government seem against poor between consenting adults who's job is to make porography. This new anti-porn squad is a danger no matter what.

However, what are people going to do if all porn sites based in the US are closed down, will there be an outcry.. unlikely, but the government are going to have problems when the sites are just based abroad. There are download sites for mp3's etc now based abroad after they were going to be closed down.

Wouldn't it be better for the governments to start concentrating on something more important than pornography, there are enough problems in the world today for all the rich countries to deal with, yet they waste their time shutting down websites.

[Alex Bragi]

I received this in my subscription to "DOMestic" today and I felt it would be of interest.

subject line: X: the Bush/Gonzales War against Free Speech
posted on: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:35:53 -0000
posted by: "thrash999" (email address removed)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom

Contact: (removed)

Wave of Obscenity Prosecutions Leads to Closure and Self-
Censorship of SM Websites October 20, 2005 - Attorney General
Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically
target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic
and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity
prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late
July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity
prosecutions, and the FBI announced in September that it was
forming an anti-obscenity task force to crack down on
pornography.

Any website that has content containing "bestiality, urination,
defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" should
be forewarned that prosecution is possible. Additionally,
Federal sentencing guidelines state that any obscenity- related
punishment should be "enhanced for sadomasochistic material."

Forty people and businesses have been convicted of obscenity
since 2001, and 20 additional indictments are pending according
to Andrew Oosterbaan, chief of the Justice Department's child
exploitation and obscenity section. There were only four
obscenity prosecutions during the eight years of the Clinton
administration.

Though adult content is, in theory, protected by the First
Amendment, only a jury can determine if a work is obscene or not
under the subjective set of standards that vary from one
community to the next established in the 1973 Supreme Court
ruling, Miller v. California.

Text is not inherently more protected than images when it comes
to obscenity charges. The erotic fiction website Red Rose
Stories is facing obscenity charges after federal agents raided
the owner's home on October 3rd, taking computer equipment and
diskettes that contained all of their files and site
information.

The Department of Justice is clearly hoping that websites will
self-censor or remove their content entirely. Midori, a fetish
model and SM educator who teaches classes on bondage, has
removed her website, BeautyBound.com, citing fear of obscenity
prosecution. The owner of three SM websites, known as GrandPa
DeSade, removed his websites from the Internet. SuicideGirls.com
also announced they are self-censoring their materials over
concerns about a possible obscenity crackdown.

Recent prosecutions of obscenity on websites include: A former
police officer in Lakeland, Florida, was arrested on October 7th
on over 300 obscenity-related charges for the sexual content
posted on his website. The same day, webmaster Chris Wilson,
owner of amateur website NowThatsFuckedUp.com, was raided on
charges of obscenity by a local Sheriffs office.

"I think it's crucial for us to stand up for consensual
sadomasochism and other alternative sexual practices," says
Barbara Nitke, fetish photographer. "This is a battle worth
fighting, and I hope everyone who can will just censor out the
most provocative material from their websites, but keep them up.
I also appeal to the lawyers in our community to help us find
ways to keep people's websites up."

Barbara Nitke and the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom
(NCSF) have proactively challenged federal obscenity laws as
applied to the Internet, arguing that obscenity laws based on
"local community standards" are too vague and their existence
burdens protected speech, resulting in self-censorship due to
the fear of prosecution. A district court three-judge panel in
New York ruled that while Nitke and the NCSF members were at
risk, more proof was needed that obscenity laws cause otherwise
protected speech to be restrained through acts of self-
censorship.

The case is currently on appeal to the United States Supreme
Court. "The effect of silencing alternative lifestyle speech was
exactly why we brought the lawsuit," says attorney John
Wirenius, lead counsel for NCSF. "The self- censorship we are
seeing underscores the importance of supporting our ongoing
obscenity challenge."

To contribute to the appeal of the CDA lawsuit, go to: (removed)

The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is a national
organization committed to creating a political, legal, and
social environment in the United States that advances equal
rights of consenting adults who practice forms of alternative
sexual expression. NCSF is primarily focused on the rights of
consenting adults in the SM- leather-fetish, swing, and
polyamory communities, who often face discrimination because of
their sexual expression.

(web site, email, name and address removed)

***

Since I was unsure if it was ok to post names and address here, I've removed them.

[sm4hg]

Well, first I have to admit I'm attracted by stories involving "minors" up (or better down) to a certain age (about 14, I'd say). I especially like those stories where a boy/girl dominates his/her mother (just think of those great Kathy Andrews stories *sigh*). Now there's definitely no child harmed, if someone then it's the mother....

But to come to the topic. I support all those fighting for freedom. Cencorship in any way does not help anybody. Those of you who consent with taking out child porn here just because you don't like it are too narrow minded. It's not a personal thing. It's not a "I-like-it" vs. "I-don't-like-it" thing. It's cencorship. It's castration.

Of course pedos feed on those child stories. Let them. Hopefully they're full (pigged out?) afterwards and don't go to abuse a child to unburden from pent-up unfulfilled desires. Porn - in general - is a good method to get relief in some way or other.
But it's the same with those rapists or killers or... whatever you want to choose.
So I think noone here want's to have the stories removed that are labelled NC, MC, drugs, rape ... because that's why we come here. But all those are illegal, too, aren't they?
Where does it begin and where does it end? Well, it starts right here and ends up with no porn at all anymore.



IMO:

Hopefully when there is a re-election things will ease up; but until then it is in the best interests of the site to get rid of the underage stories.

Just a question: Did you ever hear of a law/restriction/cencorship being abolished by those who fallowed? Once installed it's hard (or impossible) to get rid of it. Especially when it's about such a taboo thing like porn. Otherwise a politician would have to state he likes porn.... :p

Finally I wanted to ask if anybody knows what has happened to the "book project". The site hasn't been updated for about half a year so I tried to go there but was told the site has been closed. Is this due to this cencorship?

Ps:I didn't want to insult anybody but if there's someone who wants to feel insulted... well I don't mind... ;)

[orchidsoul]

I get why you don't like underage stories, I really do. I sympathise, they make me uncomfortable, too. Ultimately, though, it's completely irrelevant. Not liking something in fiction, detesting it even, is not a good enough reason to support a ban, especially considering what the 'outside world' may well think of the rest of the stories on this site.
CE

Oh- I definitely took no offense. You are completely correct. I was just explaining why I hadn't said anything... not that it makes it right. For me, it's also more about the fact that it's Jinn's site. I can't offer any assistance in the battle, so who am I to ask Jinn to fight the government?

digging herself a deeper hole,
Orchid :)

[Carnivale Ed]

Agreed. That's why I posted this:

I think I'd feel better about this whole thread if everyone said, "We disagree with the decision in principle, but understand why you find it necessary, Jinn."

[funtime37]

is the server that this site on in Canada or the US? tourguide lives in Canada so what is the beef with US laws? or did i miss something along the way?

[Alex Bragi]

...Those of you who consent with taking out child porn here just because you don't like it are too narrow minded. It's not a personal thing. It's not a "I-like-it" vs. "I-don't-like-it" thing. It's cencorship. It's castration...

"I don't like them" is shallow and narrow minded, yes, I agree, so please don't paraphrase it like that. I don't like rainy days, I don't like spiders and snails, I don't like burnt toast, and so on. However, kiddy porn doesn't even begin to come close to those things "I don’t like". In fact, my objections to paedophilia and infantophilia fantasies, have very little to do with what "I like" and "don't like".

I do concede that there is a vast grey area between the ages of say 13 and 18--the young and innocent verses the young and not so innocent, I suppose.

[delish]

This is a very simple issue that some people are sullying with personal opinions. You don't like pedophiles. Good! Me neither. I hate 'em, on a very personal level. The stories with minors make you uncomfortable. Don't read them. But don't cheer because Jinn is being forced to remove the "young" stories unless you're ready to cheer the day anything the US government deems to be "hardcore" is removed from US servers, and any other servers they can bully into sanctioning this action.

Pay attention, folks. You're humming a cheery song as your personal freedoms are being removed right under your own noses. And I think that scares me more than what the government is doing; the fact that so many supposedly broad-minded people are so willing to support this. I think Carnivale Ed said it best, but I'm too lazy to quote so I'll paraphrase. Go back and read it for full effect, though.

Don't applaud the loss of something simply because you don't like it. Examine why it was lost, and then mourn it. /Carnivale Ed sorta-quote

If you can't get past the category that's being removed, pretend it's something else. Pretend it's whatever category you come here to read because it's so much better, so much more explicit, so much dirtier and vast and beautifully eclectic than any other site I've seen (with the possible exception of Asstr). Pretend it's the category you read when no one else is looking, and you found the best selection of stories on that particular subject right here at BDSM library. That's not such a stretch. In fact... Pretend that the whole site is coming down right now. In a way, it is.

Do you understand why this is such a bad thing? Does anyone really feel like there's nothing wrong with what's going on? Anyone? :confused:

'lish

[DeGrinch]

Every time a group, or a person, gives in to the 'Holier than thou" bunch it a victory for them. You should make them come and get the things, that they in thier rightous ignorance, believe are harming the 'public' that they think it is thier job to protect.

Hell I don't want to see children harmed, and I don't believe that anyone using this site does, but censorship isn't going to make any child safer and nearly anyone with any sence knows it. Even these self-rightous pricks know it, if they would tell the truth. It's just a power trip for them.

I can't be the only person in the US that had sex before I was 18. How do you tell the story of a persons sex life without the beginning? I think I know one woman that was over 18 before she started fucking, but even with her that wasn't the beginning of her sex life(masturbation, petting, etc.) Real people, male and female, begin thinking and doing things sexual at about 13, generally with others about the same age and these are the experiences that shape a persons life, if you can't write about them you can't really write about a person.

All that said, I understand. Unless you have unlimited funds these pricks in the government can drain you dry, using your oun tax money to do it, and in the end it wont matter if it's decided that you were in the right, your still broke.

But darn it, it's just not right.

DeGrinch

[jj_frap]

Give the fascist man a gun shot!

This is war.

The time for peace is over.

The only solution to Nazism and its supporters lies in the Chumbawamba songs Enough is Enough and the Anti-Nazi Song.

[Rocky]

Well, I saw there was an update today (or maybe it was yesterday), the "underage stories will be removed" banner is no longer on the front page, and I have yet to received the promised e-mail regarding removal of my stories with the "young" tag. I haven't checked to see if they're still visible, but as of yesterday they were.

Does this mean there's been a change in plans?

[Rocky]

Well, I saw there was an update today (or maybe it was yesterday), the "underage stories will be removed" banner is no longer on the front page, and I have yet to received the promised e-mail regarding removal of my stories with the "young" tag. I haven't checked to see if they're still visible, but as of yesterday they were.

Does this mean there's been a change in plans?

Appending to my post, I also just noticed that at least one of the just-posted stories does have the young tag, so perhaps I won't have to decide which of my stories will be revised, and which won't be because the story line would be corrupted beyond repair.

[lex ludite]

Appending to my post, I also just noticed that at least one of the just-posted stories does have the young tag, so perhaps I won't have to decide which of my stories will be revised, and which won't be because the story line would be corrupted beyond repair.

I have the same questions as you do. There are a variety of possibilities to consider, such as that the Library contains almost 4000 stories, and someone has to go through this stack and pick out the ones using the "young" tag. In addition most authors didn't bother using that since "teen" covered everything. This is assuming that all authors paid attention to the original guidelines of no characters under the age of 13! If you were following that requirement, there was no need to bother with "young". Now the problem is magnified by orders of magnitude, since it's no longer a matter of looking for a key word, but it requires that someone now wade through the text for any story that has the code word "teen". Personally I'm holding up on posting anything more to the site until this issue has been resolved. As I've already noted, I have no intention of rewriting anything that I've already posted. Jinn can take it down and keep it :confused: down, that's his choice. :confused:

[Rocky]

I have the same questions as you do. There are a variety of possibilities to consider, such as that the Library contains almost 4000 stories, and someone has to go through this stack and pick out the ones using the "young" tag. In addition most authors didn't bother using that since "teen" covered everything. This is assuming that all authors paid attention to the original guidelines of no characters under the age of 13! If you were following that requirement, there was no need to bother with "young". Now the problem is magnified by orders of magnitude, since it's no longer a matter of looking for a key word, but it requires that someone now wade through the text for any story that has the code word "teen". Personally I'm holding up on posting anything more to the site until this issue has been resolved. As I've already noted, I have no intention of rewriting anything that I've already posted. Jinn can take it down and keep it :confused: down, that's his choice. :confused:

That could be, but it seems that if plans have not been changed, then a story with a "young" tag would have not been posted so recently. I agree that many underage stories simply used "teen," and some used none at all, which would indeed mean rummaging through every work here to see if there is a 17 year old lurking somewhere.

Assuming the removal of such stories does occur, I will probably revise some of mine so that people can continue to enjoy them here. I think I could do this without ruining the story line in some cases. However, there are a few ("Memoirs of a Slave Girl," for example) for which such an revision would simply not work. I'll simply post my stories with underage characters elsewhere...though bdsmlibrary.com is my absolute favorite story site!

[C_Lakewood]

I think that, ideally, some distinction should be drawn between underage
characters as perpetrators and underage characters as victims. For
example, would "The Bad Seed" have had much impact at all if Rhoda
Penmark had been 18?

On the other hand, at least the guidelines are clear. The "Abductor" site
recently embarked on a housecleaning of sorts and announced that:

Certain terms and or stories will not be tolerated: ******,
********, ****, ******, kindigarden, mommy & daddy.

I posted a message pointing out the absurdity of this statement, and my
message was deleted. Then I sent in an e-mail that was ignored. I can
only conclude that that site is being run, not by the merely careless, but
by the truly stupid. (BTW, apparently **** stands for "teen," because
there was a complaint later of having to read through "ump****" stories
to separate the allowable from the intolerable. I imagine that, in future,
"18" will be okay, but "eighteen" will be posted as "eigh****.")

Agree with Jinn or not, at least he's not a boob.

[lex ludite]

That could be, but it seems that if plans have not been changed, then a story with a "young" tag would have not been posted so recently. I agree that many underage stories simply used "teen," and some used none at all, which would indeed mean rummaging through every work here to see if there is a 17 year old lurking somewhere.

Assuming the removal of such stories does occur, I will probably revise some of mine so that people can continue to enjoy them here. I think I could do this without ruining the story line in some cases. However, there are a few ("Memoirs of a Slave Girl," for example) for which such an revision would simply not work. I'll simply post my stories with underage characters elsewhere...though bdsmlibrary.com is my absolute favorite story site!

I don't think so! There have been many instances in the past when it was painfully obvious that Jinn wasn't keeping an eye on the rest of the folk responsible for keeping his rather large and complex site operating. Add to this the fact that much of the operation is almost totally automated, and it is easy to see why the left hand of Jinn is not in concert wth his right hand, even in these perilous times.

[Robin Lane]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3783)), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

While I am appalled by censorship, I am equally appalled by child sexual abuse. (A person who has not yet reached or surpassed his/her 18th birthday is a child.) I will abide by this rule in the future, if I ever post again. (More about that in announcments.) I am willing to do this because, as an author of fiction, I am hard pressed to say that it is stifling to my creativity. Any story that uses a teen girl is just as well off if that girl is at least 18 years of age or older. Unless there is a compelling need to make a person in an erotic story a child (using such a character for sex is NOT a compelling need,) children should not be part of the story.

Robin Lane

[delish]

Robin Lane said:

Any story that uses a teen girl is just as well off if that girl is at least 18 years of age or older.

With all due respect, even if this doesn't stifle your creativity, it seems fairly obvious by the number of stories with this code that it stifles the creativity of others, or at least hampers it. I also quoted you because I disagree with that statement. Let's try some other combinations with it.

"Any story that uses two women is just as well off using a man and a woman, because homosexuality is wrong."

"Any story that involves anal sex would be just as stimulating using regular vaginal sex, as anal sex is illegal."

"Any story involving rape is just as well off using a bit of rough sex, because rape shouldn't be eroticized."

"Any story involving female submission would be just as well off without the power exchange, because submission is degrading to women."

I don't agree with any of these sentiments, by the way. I am not trying to be hurtful or rude with my continued comments, either. I just feel, very strongly, that it is inherently wrong to impose a standard on what may and may not be considered proper fantasy. As I've said before, who decides where it ends?

I know, Robin, that you said you were appalled at the censorship, and I'm glad. I also know that, for the majority of your post, you were speaking from a personal viewpoint. It's just the end that got me. It sounds like a sweeping generalization, and I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted.

Take care,

'lish

[Chuckdom19]

Congrats, Delish, and all the others speaking out for freedom.

We have been blind-sided and forced to give up way too many of our civil rights and constitutional protections in what has turned out to be a knee-jerk reaction to 9-11. Whether it is unnecessary is moot, at this point.

The problem with any censorship is where does it stop. This year, porn. Next year, religions competing with the State. Soon after, anything the government disagrees with. Ultimately, "Animal Farm"... or "1984". Unpersons. Rewriting history. Who knows what.

Jinn must do what he needs to do, understood. This is his group, his baby; we must not kill it with our needs. But it's up to us to educate people about tolerance, and the difference between fantasy and child abuse/endangerment.
Speak to your friends and relatives. Or plan to live in one of George Orwell's horror worlds.

[nova]

The "Abductor" site recently embarked on a housecleaning of sorts and announced that:

Certain terms and or stories will not be tolerated: ******,
********, ****, ******, kindigarden, mommy & daddy.

I posted a message pointing out the absurdity of this statement, and my
message was deleted. Then I sent in an e-mail that was ignored. I can
only conclude that that site is being run, not by the merely careless, but
by the truly stupid. (BTW, apparently **** stands for "teen," because
there was a complaint later of having to read through "ump****" stories
to separate the allowable from the intolerable. I imagine that, in future,
"18" will be okay, but "eighteen" will be posted as "eigh****.")

Agree with Jinn or not, at least he's not a boob.

As you know, I already gave you my thoughts on this post by email, however in the interests of a balanced discussion, it seems fair that I present them in public too. As I've said I think your comments are unfair...particularly the more "personal" remarks

The owners of the site in question are neither stupid nor careless (or boobs). Yes, the filter they applied to undesirable terms was put in place before the post was made, and obviously had the effect of hiding the words they were supposed to be warning posters not to use. It was a mistake, but those happen. Given that the site owners run a number of BDSM/fetish pay sites which have all been burdened with the new regulations on record-keeping, and they are snowed under with making their business compliant, I think that the odd mistake is forgiveable.

Now add the latest threat to free speech, which has necessitated the removal of all the stories from the site until they can be verified not to contain such subjects as underage, snuff and bestiality and the possibility of legal proceedings if they aren't careful, and I would hope that most of their actions are seen to be understandable. (I can't comment on the deletion of your post, however, but as I told you in the email, I have never known it happen before.)

The story site in question is free, as is this one. It's a service provided to those who wish to read and write erotic fiction and it's paid for by the business from the other sites that they are struggling to keep open in the face of the latest crackdowns. Their easiest course of action would actually be to shut the story site down altogether, but they care enough about the stories and those who contribute to keep going. I think that should be applauded. The same applies to this site. In fact, at a time like this, maybe those of us who participate in these, or any other forums, should be pulling together, rather than criticising.

Finally, no I'm not wholly objective - I've known the owners (at least in an online capacity) for a while and I'm one of the moderators there. That aside, I have tried to keep this post as objective as possible.

[billjam]

Robbing at bank is a crime. Thinking about robbing a bank is not a crime. Nor is dreaming about what you would do with the money.

I hate censorship. I have ever since some misguided citizen got William F. Buckley's conservative National Review banned from the library as a communist magazine when I was in high school.

Giving in just makes them come after you all the harder. I certainly don't condone sex with children or many of the other extreme acts depicted in stories on this site. But there is a huge difference between fantasy and reality, and all but a tiny, tiny fraction of people stay on the right side of that line. What a shame that everyone has to suffer.

[S_Couture]

I think underage sex, bdsm, sadism, bestiality, homosexuality and the whole lot is disgusting. It does my heart good to see these stories removed. If only they could ALL be removed.

God knows the perverted thoughts going through your heads. And God don't like fags, queers, dykes, sluts, witches, ribbers, pills, or sex other than for the purpose of making babies. We have been waiting for 200 years and now we own the government and we own you. This country was founded by Christians, and now it will be a Christian nation once again.

The best part is...even if you move the content, you are still here. Do you really think you can hide behind a computer?!? We can find you. We can prosecute you. First the site owners, then the authors, then the readers. You sick pagans - may you burn in hell!

:D

[alura]

What is your problem? If you don't like this stuff then why are you on here? Go away. We don't want to hear your shit. Christianity is not about judging and that's certainly what you are doing. I used to be a 'died in the wool' church going person until I met up with enough of you to turn my stomach. You are all alike. You claim to love the human race but you only love yourself. I know more atheists who are kind and giving than I know christian people. I speak from experience when I say this. I've seen so many like you who claim to be free but in reality you are bound up in cages of your own making. So many of you are unhappy - - - you want things you can never have; things that you are only willing to admit in your deepest and darkest moments. I feel sorry for you. You are so blind to who you really are and what you really want and like most of the church going clan you are probably miserable in your own life and so? You strike out at others because it's 'status quo' when in reality you are probably dying to be free. I feel so sad for you that you are so blind to the truth. The truth is this: Everyone has the right to choose and in the words of the Holy Book (that's right...I have been in church for years, babe- - I can even quote chapter and verse when requested) "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged". Remember those words because when you face God someday, you're going to hear that echo in your small minded ears.
We don't want your kind on here...judgemental, stupid and blind. Get lost!


I think underage sex, bdsm, sadism, bestiality, homosexuality and the whole lot is disgusting. It does my heart good to see these stories removed. If only they could ALL be removed.

God knows the perverted thoughts going through your heads. And God don't like fags, queers, dykes, sluts, witches, ribbers, pills, or sex other than for the purpose of making babies. We have been waiting for 200 years and now we own the government and we own you. This country was founded by Christians, and now it will be a Christian nation once again.

The best part is...even if you move the content, you are still here. Do you really think you can hide behind a computer?!? We can find you. We can prosecute you. First the site owners, then the authors, then the readers. You sick pagans - may you burn in hell!

:D

[Chuckdom19]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

[S_Couture]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

I was only kidding. But you don't have to go far to see that this is the mentality we are dealing with here. Do you really think they are going to stop with a certain type of story? They are all JUST stories. Just fiction.

But to the people who say, "What's the big deal? Just remove the underage stories. No big whoop..."

Do you realize what you are saying? We are talking a who's who of BDSM literature. Parker, Thumb, Marlissa, Cowgirl, Orestes, Dr. Phil, Dr. Wu, LCDRJMC, etc. etc. Removing from a site is not the same as burning books, but it is no less dastardly. These works are effectively gone for millions of readers.

Go ahead and include the like of Nabakov and Shakespeare in your list of works to ban.

"I don't read those stories...."

Bullshit. Read the top rated stories list on this site. See how many have characters under 18. How many golden Clitorides winners feature underaged characters? How many website owners have gotten out of the business? How many authors have quit writing? How long before you people wake up?

[alura]

I think S_Couture is baiting people here to see what responses he gets. Many other remarks reveal he doesn't live by what he says here.

I haven't read any of his/her other stuff but sorry remarks like that totally piss me off because I've been on both sides. So many christian people are so evil..really they are. Selfish, backbiting, twisted....it's sad really because there are some out there who are truly good...like my mom, for one.

And now I've read your response S Couture and I won't apologize for my responses because I didn't know who you were.

[S_Couture]

And now I've read your response S Couture and I won't apologize for my responses because I didn't know who you were.

It's no problem. I was baiting anyway. It's just that everyone always thinks that they aren't a perv. We are all pervs on the inside.

[alura]

It's no problem. I was baiting anyway. It's just that everyone always thinks that they aren't a perv. We are all pervs on the inside.

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make exactly. We are. I know so many church going people who are into stuff that their friends don't know about. I hate all that pretending. Why can't people just be REAL?

[Eternal]

While I don't particularily care for the underage stories, I do recognize that there are people that do. And while it wouldn't be the end of the world, if the American Taliban stopped at banning underage stories, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it is only the beginning. I really think that the new webmaster has little choice, but to protect the site (and quite frankly I'd rather lose the underage stories than all of the stories). But where does one draw the line - I'm afraid that fundies won't stop, until all stories are banned, and continous retreat will only encourage them...


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

[boccaccio2000g]

[QUOTE=



All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

QUOTE]

First, I think that most, but perhaps not all of us would agree that in real life it is legally and morally questionable for an adult of say, twenty-five years or more to try to seduce an underage person of either sex. There is an inherent power/experience imbalance that works against the teenager.

That said, in fiction I think there is a huge difference in tone between

1) stories in which a young person under eighteen is being pursued, seduced, or stalked by an older person who is depicted, in the story, as acting in a morally repugnant way. That doesn't mean that the older person cannot be shown to be excited by the temptation or the reality of such an experience, but that, by some means the author contrives to show the reader that that character is 'wrong' to have given into that temptation -- which most of us have experienced. High school cheerleaders wear short skirts; there's nothing particularly wrong, I don't suppose, in adult males (or females) admiring the pretty legs of cheerleaders. But it is wrong, I think, for an older adult to take that admiration to the next level.

and

2) stories in which an older person uses a young person sexually in a setting in which such conduct is not depicted as reprehensible. I don't think it is 'wrong' or socially damaging or destructive to write a story about an older man lusting after high school cheerleaders as long as the tone of the story condemns his actions (even if it celebrates them in a prurient sense).

Even so, while I do not 'approve' of stories that portray such a male character in a positive light, I don't think they should be censored. They're still just stories.

This whole business, like all censorship, gets really nutty when you try to apply it in practice. As I said, I would not 'approve' a story which portrayed a thirty year old man seducing (or letting himself be seduced by) a sixteen-year-old girl with no moral context. But how about a twenty five year old man? A twenty year old man? An eighteen year old 'man'? Where should the line be drawn? Are all twenty year old men equal? Are all sixteen year old girls equal?

It gets worse. How about historical stories? To deny the existence of teenage sexuality in historical times is as nutty as to pretend that teenage sexuality wouldn't exist in our own time if it were not for 'dirty old men'. Juliet's nurse tells us "Come Lammas-eve at night shall she be fourteen". Clearly, it seems to me, fourteen was a different age, in social terms, in renaissance Verona than in many heartland crossroads today.

Finally, there is the issue -- and this hits home with me personally -- what if the age of the young person is a legitimate (and not merely a prurient) part of the entire plot. One of the scores of characters in the "Jade Pavilion" is Ci-ci, a poor Chinese girl who is about fourteen or fifteen when she takes employment as a maid in the Black Pagoda, the castle/palace of the villainous Richard Chan, who controls the Shanghai underworld in the 1880's. Chan takes a liking to the pretty young servant-girl and after a time he takes her to his bed, as he has so many women before her. Later, after being presented with false evidence against her (by his #1 concubine who is jealous of Chan's fondness for Ci-ci), Chan comes to believe that Ci-ci is a thief and a liar and turns her over to his minions, the Black Scorpions, who treat her very badly indeed. Meanwhile Ci-ci has an older sister, Peony, (who plays a much more important role in the overall story), and Peony, hearing of her sister's dreadful plight, offers herself to the Scorpions if they will let her little sister go free. Peony's unselfishness and nobility of spirit is one of the threads that binds this very long work together, and I don't think her sisterly sacrifice resonates nearly as well if Ci-ci is nineteen instead of fifteen.

Most of Ci-ci's history is told over several chapters of my book, but Peony appears and reappears throughout this very long story. As I said, changing Ci-ci's age by five years alters the entire tone of the story. Removing her from the story altogether leaves all sorts of loose ends because the relationship between the two sisters is an integral part of a long and complex story. Realistically, if Ci-ci goes down, so to speak, the "Jade Pavilion" -- which I have recently begun to work on again, after a lengthy hiatus -- is going down with her.

And I think it would be a sad irony if a work which was intended to broaden the horizons of erotica should contribute to their being narrowed.

Boccaccio

[DarkPen]

I'll save you the trouble of hunting my stories down. I only have 2: Avatar and Avatar Book 2. They both contain charactors that are under 18. The youngest currently is 15.


So go ahead and pull them, but I won't change a single, solitary word of the stories. I've had people asking me reciently why I haven't posted. It's because I'm doing a Naked in School side story to Avatar. One of the charactors is 14. I figured that something like this was coming, and didn't want to waste my time, and the time of the site owner, posting the story.

I'll tell you what though: I'm not changing a single word of my writing. It's your site, pull them if you feel like it. They don't have the 'young' code attached to them, so I'm telling you where they are.

Both stories, BTW, are among the highest rated on the site.

I'll tell you something else: Pulling those 'young' coded (and anything under 18) stories? It's not going to help you. As another poster pointed out, they are targeting anything obscene. That includes snuff, mutilation, beastiality, noncon, SCAT, URINATION, BDSM.

If you fold on this, I assure you, you may as well fold the site, because the definition of an obscene story is one that has no socially redeeming value.

I've spoken to a lawyer about this -- someone who is actually a rather high leve ACLU lawyer. You think you're protected under the first amendment when you write about someone shitting in someone elses mouth? Better think again. Unless a jury can find something socially redeeming in the story, it's considered obscene, and obscenity, in any form (pictures/film/text) is NOT protected.

If this site is in Canada, then I'd say you have a bit more protection then we do in the USA. But what do I know? I'm not Canadian.

Pen

[DominantP]

So go ahead and pull them, but I won't change a single, solitary word of the stories.

Cheers to you. Just because people disagree or don't like to read your topics, does NOT mean you should have your rights slapped on the wrist.

No, I don't like these sorts of stories, but does that mean I want them to just vanish? Should we turn a deaf ear and pretend it never existed? This is a BDSM community; a sect of sexuality and a lifestyle that is more often than not frowned upon, and thus why there aren't an enormous amount of BDSM story sites. We should not stoop down and become hypocritical.

Furthermore, I'm extremely displeased at the new ownership of the site. I understand there's a certain time of adjustment, but this new owner has only brought the BDSM Library down thus far.

Porn ads where there used to be Bondage-related ads, not a SINGLE story update, and now censorship. This is not a changing of the guard, this is a takeover, and this is wrong.

[Chuckdom19]

Furthermore, I'm extremely displeased at the new ownership of the site. I understand there's a certain time of adjustment, but this new owner has only brought the BDSM Library down thus far.

Porn ads where there used to be Bondage-related ads, not a SINGLE story update, and now censorship. This is not a changing of the guard, this is a takeover, and this is wrong.

The ads make money, and allow the site to keep operating. Not your kind of ads? Not mine either... but perhaps ABC doesn't like advertising Fords... they still do, because it pays.

Tiger has been working on the update for three days now: it is not simple, as there are a LOT of stories backed up to be posted. Give the guy some TIME. And the censorship was proposed by the government, not by Tiger. I haven't seen him propose it anywhere.

[Masters_lilone]

even though i think that our goverment is screwed up i agree with tiger removing all underage stories to prevent the site and the academy from being shut down it was this site that made me want to start to write stories based on our lifestyle so it would be a bad thing to see this site shut down
beside starting to write for this site i am also a student at the academy that is part of this site. even though i do not approve of cenorship of any knd i think that it's important that we not give the goverment any reason to force tiger to shut down this site

[DominantP]

The ads make money, and allow the site to keep operating. Not your kind of ads? Not mine either... but perhaps ABC doesn't like advertising Fords... they still do, because it pays.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.

[delish]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.


From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

[delish]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with ads, but before they were at least relevant. Breaking bonds with those sponsors was not a smart move.

And it's wonderful that we're giving up our rights just because the government wags a finger at us. Afterall, it's not us yet, right? I mean, do you really want people to be this passive if the government decides against bondage related material as well? And yes, this is an administrator decision to remove the stories. I would rather have the site shut down and fight legally for it's rights than have our work censored, thank you. If the new owner was not willing to fight tooth and nail for this website, maybe he's the wrong man for the job.

As for being patient, coming up on 2 weeks of no updates and no "improvements", excuse me if I'm a little skeptical. Anyone on here who's willing to give up their rights of writing whatever they want, no matter how sickening it may be to some people, should put down their pens. Last time I checked, real writers didn't believe in censorship.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't believe the Red Rose Stories thing for a second. If the FBI shut down a site, they would NOT let you put up a front page in place of it and would certainly not allow you to have your forums and chat alive and linked from said front page. When isonews.com was shut down for illegal activities, the FBI put up their own message. Not all things on the internet are truthful.


From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

[DominantP]

From what I can tell, Tiger's only been here, what, four days now? It's hardly his fault that it's been weeks since there was an update/improvement on the site. Also, have we even -heard- from him regarding this action? Maybe we should wait a few ticks before ripping his throat out, eh?

I stand corrected, but I was confused and thought that Tiger had first made this topic, when it was Jinn (all of Jinn's post are marked as Tiger's now?) Because of this and the confusion of the actual transfer date, I'll wait to see what happens from here on in. My only complaint that still stands is the ads, but that's minor, really. I'd love to see some decision by Tiger soon, however.

[Sweep]

I abhor censorship in any form.

The thought police have tried to stifle free speech and expression for centuries. Fortunately the human spirit has always prevailed.

Whilst I find stories of parents and others abusing children offensive as I do with snuff stories, the solution is simple - I don't read them.

As Voltare is so often quoted "I disagree with what you say but will fight until the day I die for your right to say it"

Besides it is all so contradictory. How the churches can oppose snuff movies when they so openly supported the recent Mel Gibson movie "The last passion of Christ" escapes any logic.

Besides the distinction that others have made between fantasy and reality is perfectly valid. I read Harry Potter but I don't believe in magic. I read crime novels but have never robbed anyone let alone own or fire a gun.

Thank God for sites like this and congratulations to those with courage enough to set them up

[Rabbit1]

While it is fine that the members here stand for free speech and are totally against any kind of Censorship. Sadly it is the site owner and the administrator that get pulled before the judge in these lame cases. Even if you win you lose, as your site is shut down ---your server is now evidence--you have lost business and income while your name is smeared in the media. I do not blame site owners for wanting to be cautious. We can rant and rave all we like but it is not our head on the chopping block. At least Tiger asked for input---most owner would not. I support Tiger in any decision he makes on this matter.


just my opinion

[jj_frap]

Fuck America!!! Long Live Freedom!!

[Blake]

Fuck America!!! Long Live Freedom!!


Too general :) In my opinon, it's the specific scared ass people, not AMERICA herself. I hate the leaders of america, but america is a great framework, if it was used appriopriately. America's leaders just contradict themselves, and destroy the fabric of whatever dream america was founded on. :( atleast from my perspective, i was born from a mild christian mother, and that fucked me up enough, I can only imagine how destructive a complete christian follower could be, in a seat of power. (illogical argument maybe, not trying to bash christians, but alot of the hardcore ones seem to still have a major problem with limitless sex and all it's aspects. SATAN.. blah) I donno, what can you do. It worrries me cause, it always starts with something small, and with the parts of life alot of people are hesitiant to explore. I hope this doesn't lead to more of a controlled influence on expression, but, probably will. sigh.. i fear and have great hopes for the future. Such a fucked up combination of feelings. anyhoo...

[Spitman]

I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.

I don't happen to believe that legislators have got their argument right. The dividing line between material that is allegedly conducive to offending behaviour, and material that is pure adult fantasy, is not drawn by establishing a specific and numeric age limit. Doctoring stories to massage the stated ages upwards will not solve the problem if the young characters are described in such a way that makes the stated age nonsensical, when it remains clear that the story describes the violent or sexual abuse of a pre-pubescent child.

A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste.

If underage characters are not allowed, we have a problem with this story. The women who are executed are described as sexually mature, even though we can question exactly how mature. The problem is the little girl who sits naked on the judges lap and allows him to abuse her, while they watch the executions.

In this particular case, telling the reader that the little girl is actually 24 years old does not solve the problem, because by decribing her as a ‘little girl’ with a ‘hairless pussy’ there is a clear suggestion of pre-pubescence, even though breasts are mentioned. The only way to ‘clean up’ the story is to remove all references to that character, or change the description to remove the combination of the words ‘little girl’ and ‘hairless pussy’.

Unfortunately, if any such changes are made, that will destroy the theme of the story. The judge is not described sympathetically, what happens to the little girl is not described in any detail, and she seems to be consenting. The central theme of the story remains the executions, and one of the girls who is executed is the central character in the story.

What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

So if this story is allowed to remain, what kind of material should not?

Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

I think these are good examples of the kind of material we can do without. If we get this right, we will be protecting authors who might occasionally have a legitimate reason for including an underage character in a story.

[Powerone]

I personally think that the word "spit" is gross. I can only imagine the things that are dragged up and "spit" out on our clean sidewalks and beaches. I think "spitting" should be banned everywhere in our society as a filthy repulsive act.

Then for a person to be called "spitman" should be castrated and have his balls hung from the lightpost to serve as a warning to all others.

This is what happens when you start arbitrarily censoring literature because "you" don't happen to like it. Who is to decide what is "right" or "wrong"? A person called "spitman", maybe Adolf Hitler or your neighbor priest (who happens to be molesting your son on Saturday). Or maybe your politiciain, you know the one, the one that just confessed to taking $4 million in bribes, or bribes from the strip club owners from Las Vegas. or the mayor that was caught smoking crack. All of them upstanding people that are more than willing to tell you what not to read or write.

Powerone







I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.

I don't happen to believe that legislators have got their argument right. The dividing line between material that is allegedly conducive to offending behaviour, and material that is pure adult fantasy, is not drawn by establishing a specific and numeric age limit. Doctoring stories to massage the stated ages upwards will not solve the problem if the young characters are described in such a way that makes the stated age nonsensical, when it remains clear that the story describes the violent or sexual abuse of a pre-pubescent child.

A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste.

If underage characters are not allowed, we have a problem with this story. The women who are executed are described as sexually mature, even though we can question exactly how mature. The problem is the little girl who sits naked on the judges lap and allows him to abuse her, while they watch the executions.

In this particular case, telling the reader that the little girl is actually 24 years old does not solve the problem, because by decribing her as a ‘little girl’ with a ‘hairless pussy’ there is a clear suggestion of pre-pubescence, even though breasts are mentioned. The only way to ‘clean up’ the story is to remove all references to that character, or change the description to remove the combination of the words ‘little girl’ and ‘hairless pussy’.

Unfortunately, if any such changes are made, that will destroy the theme of the story. The judge is not described sympathetically, what happens to the little girl is not described in any detail, and she seems to be consenting. The central theme of the story remains the executions, and one of the girls who is executed is the central character in the story.

What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

So if this story is allowed to remain, what kind of material should not?

Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

I think these are good examples of the kind of material we can do without. If we get this right, we will be protecting authors who might occasionally have a legitimate reason for including an underage character in a story.

[Snurgla]

It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.

So now the christian people and the politically correct people think that if you just forbid people to talk about recreational sex, it will go away, and not trouble them. Using the spectre of the dangerous child rapist as a reason, they take every chance they can get in limiting the freedom to think.

The problem is, as was stated earlier: If guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns. The criminals will rape all the children they want anyway. The only ones affected are normal people, who are tied down with more and more rules of what to say and what not to say. Eventually, this will take a toll: the wealth of America as a nation is very much dependent on the right of normal people to think and to fight for their own desires.

Not that it will be a problem for long. Most extrapolations of economic growth put China's wealth per capita passing that of the US within 20 years...

In short: the choice is to see the world as it is and act accordingly, mindful of the rights of other people, or to try to shut out everything you don't "like" and pretend it doesn't exist and get others to act as you wish. The choices we make these next few years in the west determines our future in a very real way... and it's sad to see a people tamed.

Oh... and under the comics code, nothing but drek was published as comics. Self-censorship is the ultimate form of humiliation.

[Spitman]

I personally think that the word "spit" is gross. I can only imagine the things that are dragged up and "spit" out on our clean sidewalks and beaches. I think "spitting" should be banned everywhere in our society as a filthy repulsive act.

Then for a person to be called "spitman" should be castrated and have his balls hung from the lightpost to serve as a warning to all others.

This is what happens when you start arbitrarily censoring literature because "you" don't happen to like it. Who is to decide what is "right" or "wrong"? A person called "spitman", maybe Adolf Hitler or your neighbor priest (who happens to be molesting your son on Saturday). Or maybe your politician, you know the one, the one that just confessed to taking $4 million in bribes, or bribes from the strip club owners from Las Vegas. or the mayor that was caught smoking crack. All of them upstanding people that are more than willing to tell you what not to read or write.

Powerone

Well, Powerone, I don't think I'll comment on your nick. It is rather more to the point that you criticised mine (not that you understood it), rather than coming up with any sensible argument based on what I actually said. That says more about your belief in your own capacity to dominate, than your ability to focus on what this is really all about. I suggest that you don't give up your day job and go into politics.

I am opposed to irrational censorship based on references to the age of fictional characters in creative work, because it ignores other descriptive terms that give more of a clue to the intentions of the author, but also because it ignores the fact that references to the ages of characters can only be given any interpretation based on their context. If you had bothered to read what I said, that should have been very clear from the argument, which was supported by three good examples.

If a website to which I contribute my own creative work has a policy on the kind of material that is accepted, I see that as a part of my contract with the owners of the website, and I am not being unreasonable if I complain when it appears that this policy has not been implemented, especially if that means that I may be legally in jeopardy by association.

In this case I have not complained. It is the new owner of the site who found that the policy was previously not enforced properly, and intends to rectify this, and I gave my support. External censorship by governments does not come into it. This is a matter of free choice on the part of the website owner, who is not charging for access to the Library, is entitled to choose what kind of material the site will be allowed to contain, and is also entitled to be secured from any legal risk that might arise if the stated policy is not enforced. I think we can have a great deal of freedom on this website, if we don't push our luck.

I was arguing that there might be a case for excluding some material on different grounds from specific references to age, and that if this was done, many authors might actually have more freedom in here. Unfortunately Powerone has 35 stories in the Library, which seem to focus mainly on the rape and torture of unwilling female victims, who are often clearly underage, on the basis of descriptive detail other than the specific mention of age. So if my suggestions were implemented, a lot of his stories might have to go.

As a writer of some pretty extreme fantasy material of my own, I am hardly in a position to argue in favour of the kind of censorship religious zealots would prefer to see. There is a lot of unique creative writing in this library. It covers a spectrum of sexual preferences, fetishes and fantasies, and some of it is very good indeed, in my opinion.

Of course different people vary in their view of what makes a scene the ultimate erotic fantasy. Sexual orientation is far more than a matter of gender identity. But why should so many of us lose what, as adults, we regard as a wonderful erotic resource, just because a few people want to contribute stories about beating up and raping kids!

[ghostsblood]

Rape is illegal; regardless of the victims age. Murder is illegal, regardless of the victims age; yet crime novels and horror stories abound. Whats the difference? Appart from us being amature writers?


=^_^=

[Blake]

well if you look at it that way, it's just that society is afraid of sex, and gives off a 'ok' degree of what sex is. Anything outside of that is 'satan' or.. er, whatever term they are using now.

But you can't compare rape and murder in my opinon, they're too different. Every crime isn't under the definition of a crime. Crimes is a category lumping together aspects that have similar qualities. But in truth, they hold nothing of the same, just a general term of violation or something along those lines. Assault of the 'life' of a person. But that assault comes in different ways, physcological damages are different. I donno, the added fear from society of sex adds to the intensity to sex crimes. For murder, they slip into that category themselves constantly, and they make it very vauge. Execution, war, or whatever. Tools of society, and they use killing, so they're more used to it. So, we are more used tt, and it is accepted more as a form of 'expression' in pieces of work(fictional). I mean, i figure society doesnt even classify us as animals really. We fuck, and we do it however we do it, but they'd want us to follow a system to get to having sex. Heavy dating, getting to know the person for X amount of Time, Marriage, all the drawn pathways they throw out, which does jack all for most people I figure who actually accept who they are, but not doing what they set out for us starts the iffy process. And the further down you go with adding aspects to it, pain,(in itself, society considers it bad(atleast, in a broad term, and refuses to see the applicational aspects of it)) control,(want a democractc sex life ... or something, i donno), being absolutly human(cant do that, they have a weird definition of what a human is, and what life is, so that just screws up that the infiinity we hold, and they throw definitions). I donno.

Sigh, i could rip that apart myself.. Cause murder isn't murder. There are varying degrees of murder. Depths. I suppose, society is more familiar with the depths of pain + murder, as opposed to pain + sex, or just sex in general. They pretend to be something in society, and sex lets you out, so i figure, they make it indecent to do it, so they can lie to themselves that they are perfection, and people who truly accept life as an infinite experience of depth, well, become outcasts. i always thought the internet would be a safe haven, but .. yeah.

A suit man is proper, defined, specific, percise, and doesn't take depth risks. Sex is a depth, if it's explored properly without that nasty cloud hesitation that's beaten in. (I mean they cattle us to have sex at X age, instead of letting the natural life desires play out. And then, what is indecent, hell, even anal sex is 'err'. I mean, they screw with the basics and claiming them to be indecent, applications of instruments and other forms of sensations to sex, (outside the boarders of bubble baths and calm loving aspects) are evil)

I donno. Rape is, sex + pain + violation + control + destruction + 'self loss' in alot of cases. Society kinda considers all to be bad. But, society doesn't understand that all bad things, are not bad, it's only the way they are being used that makes them bad. Those feelings and sensations can take you to places inside yourself and unlock depths you've never seen. Self loss in itself can lead to a greater understanding of yourself and life as you regain to find who you are, sheding away the shit that you were molded with. Destruction can let you feel shear removal of all your defenses, your pride, your dignity, and let you feel something you couldn't normally feel. Ramble.. you can see things from different perspectives.

heh, i suppose though just the reading of someone else being raped against their will 100% is a turn on in itself. Seeing someone literally being ripped from a world and used, abused, destroyed, and made to serve is a power lust that we can't find to well in society itself. (or.. it's just hot and that's that?) Whatever your fancy for it, it's all text. It's all written mind expressions of desires that many hold. Sure, it gives details and ideas into words that are just kept in lurking feelings you never feel possibly(for some), and when it moves to words it can move to action. But that's a choice. It's not the writing that's doing that, it's the person. If the person deciedes to truly rape someone because of reading something revolving around rape, well that's the persons fault, not the writing. (I mean a pure rape, not a consentual rape)
Society tries to protect by keeping truths away from us. Well... ok sure.. good idea, if you enjoy living in a life of limits, set by someone who probably lives in a life of no limits.

They can never do it directly, they start with small direct things. Children are always a great place to start. In my opinon, a child should not have access to the internet. If they do, it's up to the PARENTS to monitor their children. Someone brought up a good point, schools do research, and if they type in 'slaves' and it brings up bdsm, well there's that. Well... then the educational system needs to create a better filtration system. Children are the greatest tools used. Fuck the children, since when did a child become more than an adult? we're all the same, except for the weakness and innocence factors. Well.. if the internet is that bad of a place, get more books and restrict the internet to the children. Don't restrict expression to our entire race.

Sigh, chaos post.



Yeah... random opinons. i dont belong in this world.

[Alex Bragi]

Hello Spitman,

By the way, I don't mind your name.

I found your posting very interesting and thought provoking.

I'd like to comment on a couple of things here.


>I agree that this site needs to adopt a stricter policy. This library is an important resource for those who enjoy, and want to share stories and ideas, whether fantasy or not, that involve bdsm. At present it appears that there is a lot of material in the library that depicts the violent and sexual abuse of children, contrary to the library’s stated policy.
Yes, that's not really what bdsm is about is it? Safe, sane, and consensual, that's what bdsm is based on.

>A case in point is the story, 'The Wheel', which has just been added to the library. The story is a particularly graphic depiction of the kind of execution that did actually take place not so very long ago, in historical terms. It is also the story of a judge, one who might be regarded as a pillar of society, who is an abuser of girl children, and uses the law to destroy them once they become a little too old for his taste....
>What we have here is actually a legitimate reason for including a description of an underage character, rather than something written to appeal to paedophiles, and the story also manages not to mention a specific age for any of the characters.

Mmm...pretty heavy stuff I agree. Oddly, I have a lot less of a problem with this kind of story, that's a total fantasy, as opposed to those that almost read like a step by step instruction manual for infantophiles and paedophiles.

Oh dear, I've gone and used the dreaded 'I" and "P' words again!


>Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website.

This is an example of the kind of story that I dont' like. Every time someone bring it up, and especially at this time of year, I get frightening thoughts of some dirty old bastard reading it, and then trotting off to find a job as a store Santa.

>
>Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia.

This is one that I have problem with also. I know many people will argue and say: "What about reading a story about murder?" But, how many people will associate themselves with the perpetrator of that kind of story? How many will walk out onto the street and say: "Fuck, what I wouldn’t do to have a chance to kill him/her..." ?

Censorship is a tough topic, with a huge grey area.

This is an interesting debate and certainly there have been some very good arguments for and against it here.

[H Dean]

[QUOTE=Snurgla]It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.QUOTE]

I would tend to disagree with the notion that the US is not what it once was or that it is something less than the founding fathers intended.

The USA is a country in constant evolution. The founding fathers realized that, in order for a country to grow, it must evolve. With this knowledge they created the three branches of government. With each branch being able to tether the other to keep it from growing too powerful they operate much as the founding fathers intended.

You see, they realized that the country would have an ebb and flow, that it would be a constant pendulum swinging from right to left.

The fact of that matter is that the USA of today is far more liberal than the USA of a few years ago in many regards while being far more conservative in other regards. The fact is that we tend to keep more of the positive aspects of liberal and conservative than we keep of the negative.

The situation regarded censorship is hardly any more harsh than it has been at any time in the last 20 years. It is just at the forefront today. Tomorrow, it will sneak into the back of the line while other things come forward.

Granted, many of the government representatives are of questionable honor. However, on must consider who we have to blame for them reaching their positions of power.

[H Dean]

[QUOTE=Snurgla]It is clear that America is not what it was, or perhaps that it was always something other than what it wanted to be. In a mere two centuries, the lessons of its founding fathers (like Jefferson) has been soundly forgotten. The entire nation is being set on a course to combat insecurity with governmental control. It doesn't work, it never has, and it never will.QUOTE]

I would tend to disagree with the notion that the US is not what it once was or that it is something less than the founding fathers intended.

The USA is a country in constant evolution. The founding fathers realized that, in order for a country to grow, it must evolve. With this knowledge they created the three branches of government. With each branch being able to tether the other to keep it from growing too powerful they operate much as the founding fathers intended.

You see, they realized that the country would have an ebb and flow, that it would be a constant pendulum swinging from right to left.

The fact of that matter is that the USA of today is far more liberal than the USA of a few years ago in many regards while being far more conservative in other regards. The fact is that we tend to keep more of the positive aspects of liberal and conservative than we keep of the negative.

The situation regarded censorship is hardly any more harsh than it has been at any time in the last 20 years. It is just at the forefront today. Tomorrow, it will sneak into the back of the line while other things come forward.

Granted, many of the government representatives are of questionable honor. However, on must consider who we have to blame for them reaching their positions of power.

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; truly a perversion of personal liberties.

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; this truly a perversion of personal liberties.

[Snurgla]

If it's the fact that murder and rape "destroys the victim's liberties", then arguably censorship should be considered a crime too. It does nothing except destroy people's liberties. The protection it has been said to give is gravely unsupported by fact, and has in fact never been substantiated in any way.

As for the murder-rape discussion, I find them extremely different crimes. Rape is one of the most hurtful things a person can be put through. Murder denies that person a future completely. If I got to choose, I would choose to be raped without hesitation. That way, I would get to live on, have good and bad experiences, get children, etc. Live. The cultural stigma put on sex is much of the problem here. When discussing how bad rape is, there is always the discussion of social stigmatization. Therapy often consists of merely bringing the rape up time and time again over the course of several years, something that to my mind is simply not healthy. We are expected to hold to the slow, ritualistic sex life society prescribes for us, and this is motivated by our feelings that sex is so sacred and taboo a subject we can not even be allowed to talk about it. Thus, anything sexual that doesn't follow our expected sexual course becomes horrifyingly destructive.

Now, I find rape an extremely brutal crime that I wish could be abolished, do not think otherwise. However, a healthy dose of sexual liberty would do much to lessen the "ultimate crime" status of it, something it does not deserve. Murder is far, far worse.

[Blake]

For American Pysco, that's a book though. Not text on a screen open to every person on the internet. A book has to be mainly obtained through a library, or ordered from some distributor. So, access is not so easily available. unlike here, where access is open to every single user of the internet, and with the click of a button they can jump from one topic to the next as quickly as they so desire. Simply put, a book is solid and defined and you get exactly what it depicts, and then it ends. It's only what is in the book. The internet is a Mass of content, and you get basically anything you want, and things you don't want. You're basically swimming in a sea of anything, unlike a book where it follows a defined start to finish guideline and you pick when you want to be subjected to it, and for how long. You could argue you can with reading stories here aswell on the same basis, but because of the simply quick change, and fluid connection you can have from any other subject matter to a bdsm subject matter, is of a 'concern' to people. Again, children and their access. Little people who are afraid of the truths of life, and refuse to accept that they exsist, so they accept the 'reality' that it doesn't and if it does it's a perversion of life and must be stopped. The internet gives them the greatest advantage to impose their power, and it's also very difficult. Unfortunatly, topics with Children and sex easily fall against their moral boundaries, and they are taking advantage of that. You know they will never debate the topic of expression on that matter, no one could win the argument. Could you imagine "so and so defends novels depicting Rape of Children". Defend, Rape and Children being in huge block letters. No one wants to be smeared with such a unbalanced, mutated aspect for defending expression, but that's what it would come down to. I've been in the hiding for the past 20 years so I don't know much about what's out there, but do you know many novels that depict the rape of a child in graphc detail, or sex with minors that has reached the aspect of popularity that American Pyscho has? I mean, american pyscho, even the title has something in it. I have not read it or seen the movie but I figure, it has to be 'solid' enough to be considered a 'novel' with such topics in it. Having large aspects of topics not directly retaining to sex and murder, but to with a fluid blend of other aspects. Leading to the understanding(in however that comes) and fluid life of the person commiting those acts. It probably has a balance of sorts, leading you deeper into his life but without blantently making it out to be just rape and murder. I could be wrong, but i don't see how it could be so popular, and withstand any assaults from the governemnts if it didnt.

It's a novel, a book. On the internet, if it is written firstly here, it's text. Books are, I figure almost impossible to stop or impose guidelines on. It's more on finding distributors and such that's the difficulty. Though, for American Pyscho, I wonder, if he had raped a child, would it have been so accepted? When it comes to children, the people in power go tunnel vision to what is right and what isn't right. No matter how it goes, fantasy or otherwise. It'd be very hard to impose their views on books, but here, on the internet, where it's literally a Mind of it's own, there are no police really, and no laws. So.. they can attack things. it's not solid either, it's data, easily deletable. Not like burning a book.

Another thing that hurts is short stories depicting raping of minors. You don't really get to indepth, and if you do, you're restricted to a short bubble of intensity. Try subjecting someone who is in power to a 50 page story of pure expression on such a deep level. In my views, they probably read stories/books, that take them close to such depths, but tease them with those depths, and constantly have life lines to raise them back to the 'safety' normality they live in. Murders alot easier to jump out of. Sex is, well, it's not so in my opinon. Sex with a child, probably isn't even depicted properly for why it's wrong, more of so, it's just a sick scary thought that we know is wrong, but are truly afraid to look at the reasons for why it is. Granted you can say the reasons, but to let them fill your mind with the colour and flavour that those reasons touch with is another thing. I donno, they make no true sense, but they make sense, if you look through their system.

Also, it's a great + for them. Imagine saying "our law has over thrown the growing number of stories depicting the RAPE of CHILDREN, BDSM, ect" and all the lovable things that go against Jesus Christ and alll his teachings that have been twisted into a game of politics.

In their views, if you obliterate the expression of such things, that's one step closer to obliterating the entire acts of it. Expressing it so others can be subjected to it, is a step closer to increasing the acceptance of it. I don't agree with that at all, you can't stop questions and expressions, not if they truly are not harming someone. The internet should be a open ground for humanity, not a Zoo. It's just they don't like this form of expression so 'open' to everyone. And they have the power, so they're using it. They never are purely true to the understandings and applications of their words. They are selective, so, you get this. It's difficult to defend this though, when you have stories you are defending that are, as I read in a quote

">Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website. "


and

>Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia. "

I wouldn't be defending that. I would be defending the authors ability to have the freedom to express his/her feelings/desires on pen/paper/text/drawings. However it comes out, they do envoke a reaction, and that is what authors/creators want. Some it might also be a way to let out feelings, and to see them for what they are, and better understand them, and enjoy them in a safe and natural way, without harming someone. Who knows. The defined subject matter? I have my reasons for it not being my thing. But I don't impose my reasons onto someone else, just because I truly do not agree with what it is . Unless someone is truly being harmed by it. On the internet, no one is forcing you to read stories like these. So the choice is yours to read them.

And if the schools have problems with children gaining access to these, spend 10 million dollars collecting data and creating filters so the children can be 'protected'.

Just an opinon.

[Alex Bragi]

To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

I believe you are right, after a while will this kind of fiction does 'lose its edge', as you put it, 'so we must push it further...' ? The question is, how much further? And, what do we do when it (the written word) no longer thrills us?

[Alex Bragi]

Duplicated.

[Blake]

if i can jump into your question Alex Bragi,

"The question is, how much further? And, what do we do if the written word begins to 'lose it's edge' thilling us?"

Well, if you have a balance of true life, true fantasty and mental fantasy, things don't start to lose their edge. I think if you endulge in too much mental fantasy it does lose it's edge. Read too much of the same style of something far beyond the defined norm, and it might become normal for you and no longer a fantasy. Especially if it's being shown everywhere. But, even if it's shown everywhere, it truly shouldn't take away from the heated experience of the moment. The more we see and expereince in the norm, the more we can improve and develop our emotions and in turn create deeper and more thought provoking responses and thoughts. Reading fantasies and reading the depths they take you to over and over can make them a feel normal, which is why to me you need a healthy balance of life and fantasy, or a strong understanding and will to go further and further into those aspects. No matter what, society might catch up to this aspect, and that might make people it will lose it's edge. But in truth, does it really matter? The next thing that comes is finding new aspects of life to apply to what is already so intriguing and different from the norm. I kind of find it confusing though, when people agrue that they want this to be allowed to be expressed, but are worried about it because they have to go further and further because that expression is becoming more and more abundant and 'normal'. You know the word poser, just because someone can say something, and write something doesn't mean they can effectively do so.

Subject yourself to something too much and it loses it's edge. And with more people, they read other peoples works and learn from those and adapt their thinking and move forward toward those depths that others have reached, making it a kinda normal. Well in that I think that blows, it's too bad people don't actually move to their own development purely on their own, but whatcha gonna do. There will always be similar ideas, but ideas are infinite, and depths are infinite.

So to your question "The question is, how much further? And, what do we do if the written word begins to 'lose it's edge' thilling us?"

How much further? I hope we go forever further. Balance the written word with a healthy lifestyle, and try to live out some 'healthy' fantasies. If the written word loses it's edge, maybe you need to experience life some more and leave the pen for awhile.

Our feelings and sensations shouldn't be depicted or hampered in anyway because a billion people feel the samething, or deeper things. I donno, the more people that you can share things with, the more depths you can find and write about, aswell as experience with. personally, I think it should be an individual search, and good to use sources to find depths, but it's better to find your own, make it more of you. Slowly creating a growing expansion for your expression, and growing from each form of expression, instead of becoming a stale repititious person.
I know I say alot of common known things, but whatever, nice to say them to someone atleast, so sorry if im saying something that appears to make me off to be a smartass or something..

[Spitman]

(a) I kind of find it confusing though, when people argue that they want this to be allowed to be expressed, but are worried about it because they have to go further and further because that expression is becoming more and more abundant and 'normal'. . . Subject yourself to something too much and it loses it's edge. And with more people, they read other peoples works and learn from those and adapt their thinking and move forward toward those depths that others have reached, making it a kinda normal. . . . How much further? I hope we go forever further.

(b) Balance the written word with a healthy lifestyle, and try to live out some 'healthy' fantasies. If the written word loses it's edge, maybe you need to experience life some more and leave the pen for awhile.

What is being discussed in the argument presented in (a) is the development of an obsession. It is like a drug addiction where the same dose is never enough, you always need a little more. The problem is that if someone is sexually aroused by the idea of beating up and raping kids, and writes about it as if he is really doing it, how do you define more? Where is the obsession likely to go?

What I do like is the argument presented in (b). This is really good advice on how to avoid a favourite theme becoming obsessive. First, it is hard to avoid obsession if the stuff you are writing is not a fantasy. If it is a fantasy you can balance it by discovering other fantasy themes you like and writing about those. And I don't mean by different, beating up and raping little boys instead of little girls. I mean, writing about adults, insead of kids. And it is also excellent advice, if you feel that the obsession is taking over, to leave the pen for a while and experience life some more (in the company of adults who do not share the same obsession about kids).

The same advice works pretty well if you feel you are stuck on a particular fetish, whatever it is. Try reading about other fetishes and see if you can work up some enthusiasm for one you had not thought about very much. Then see if you can dream up some new variation on that fetish theme. And I don't mean, like beating up and raping kids wearing high heeled boots. I mean, like being caned by a dominant woman wearing high heeled boots!

[dominyouass]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

[ghostsblood]

Snurgla: We are thinking in different contexts. As I see it, both rape and murder represent an expresion of the utmost distain for the victim, either making them suffer through the total debasement of their being, or simply robbing them of that life altogether. Either way they are hateful acts in the extreme, and more to the point... acts that will always raise bile in a spectators throat. After all, thats what a horror story is supposed to do.

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

"Having large aspects of topics not directly retaining to sex and murder, but to with a fluid blend of other aspects. Leading to the understanding(in however that comes) and fluid life of the person commiting those acts. It probably has a balance of sorts, leading you deeper into his life but without blantently making it out to be just rape and murder. I could be wrong, but i don't see how it could be so popular, and withstand any assaults from the governemnts if it didnt."

You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

Alex: How much further can the written word be pushed..? thats a good one, we could very well be getting close in terms of shock value... thankfully horror stories aren't much more than fluff in the greater scheme of things... there are thousands of years worth of thoughts to wade through. The day the writen word loses its power, is the day I give up and live in the mountains. I like my mindless TV and Xbox... but if i dont get my 2hr a day with a book in my hand, i feel robbed. Now, if I spent 2hrs a day reading stories of child-rape every day, I would be bored of it in a week. But, to find a nugget once in a while, or to take an hour or so every week to add to my own story, I find both cathartic, and exciting.. remember when you were a kid and used to sneak a beer out at 2am in the morning. Its like that; not exactly illegal, but its a rush none the less.

[Blake]

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

I think you're missing my point. No, to me there is no difference. It is all words, and that's the solid foundation of expression in this respect. But a book, compared to text, is really different. A book exists in reality, text doesn't truly. It's easier to destroy text then it is to destroy a book, so they're going after the text on the internet. There is a difference, in their eyes. You've heard them call things smut vs literature. Im speaking from their perspective, as best as I can say it while still making a sort of sense.. that truly makes no sense in reality.

To stop a book, that truly would go against freedom of expression. It's really more black and white in that way. But on the internet, they can slither through and around expressions, and claim them to be indecent, smut, and so on. It's lax, it's very easily connected, and so they are very easily connecting their 'points' and 'views' in a chain around everything that is being expressed. Children being the main focus. Protecting the children from accidentally viewing,(or direct viewing) tying in other aspects to slowly create a chain that reaches around everything, and is strong enough to contain certain expressions. I mean, junk mail in itself, I read something about it being banned, or something in the process of being put into place, where any junk mail of the sorts that is sent to a childs email, the sender will get into a load of trouble. Well sure, that's good, children shouldn't be subjected to that, but.. that begs the question should children be on here. Sure I guess, but children shouldn't be the focal point for a expression field. They've become the weapons against expression. Anyhow, blocking off small pieces of a larger section of expression is how they are doing it. Starting off with the more, blunt ways. Child rape stories, and so on. Again, since the stories are so short, people who don't understand or care to understand them see them exactly how they want to see them, and it purely comes out as the worst of smut.

No, text and a book are different. Atleast to them. One is on a computer, another is physically printed onto pieces of paper, stamped, blah blah.(yea, all after the fact examples, but those things they cling to, which is worthless facts that shadow what truly is the heart of the problem) The internet just is an easy place for them to place an iron grip over expression of sorts. They don't like BDSM, or any form of sex like it. And as the internet is, like you said, one large book, or as I said, one Mind, it's very open, and easy to be 'structured'. How they even got a foothold on the internet to impose such things is beyond me, i guess since they made it? I donno. We make the internet really. Anyhow.. Ramble. It's just text to them, obsene text, they won't consider it as literature, and want it removed from humanity. The internets a breeding ground for it, so they're having a field day.

No, I completely agree with you, I don't agree with what I have stated in my other post, im simply throwing a perspective of some people that agree with it, in the lightest way i can. To me, there is no difference. And I know they would have more trouble breaking down a novel, printed and distributed on paper back that has sex/rape of a minor, then they ever will with 'text' on the internet. The difference between a phone and a walkie talkie is not to large. The difference between data on a screen and a printed version is. It's still expression, but one is truly solid, the other is just part of a mass of a 'sickness' that's floating around 'infecting' the youth and 'innocence' and 'light' of a 'great' 'society'.

It's hard to defend your position when your opponents have a warped limited generalized view of everything that is different to them. Building a bridge betwen them and you is a good way to start actually having decent discussions, without them slamming "it's wrong" "you are just sick", and crap like that. But the problem is, then it becomes an all out war once those bridges are built, and true conflicts of ideals and understands arise. Right now, they're just bouncing off of eachother, and since they have power, their assualts do damage, slowly, one step at a time. Atleast bdsm is not internet based, or it's be crippled in no Time. If they wanted to go after bdsm, they'd have to go after it in reality, not in a digital way. Anyhow, truly ramble.

I do agree with you, just needed to make that clear. And all of this is just an opinon.



You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

I definatly will at some point, thanks for the tid bits about it, definatly caught my attention.

[Blake]

Double post

[Dododecapod]

Given that A) the latest batch has a couple of "Young" descriptor pieces, and B) Jinn is no longer in charge (for which I am sorry, but it is so and I'll certainly wait to pass judgement on the replacement team), is the rule still in place? And when will it come into force? A word from our mods would be enlightening.

[csr]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

Hola... bienvenido! Vaya al área de community/personals para buscar.

[ghostsblood]

Blake: Sorry, I get you now.

[billjam]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?

[Spitman]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?

I don't agree that the arguments in favour of allowing pedophilia on this website are persuasive. I would rather not share a 'home' for anything I write with that kind of material, especially as the whole site gets labelled as that kind of site, and that then labels all of us as supportive of it.

The freedom to choose not to publish stories about the abuse of young characters is a legitimate freedom too. You may not want to see it that way, but it is true nevertheless.

I happen to think that if the new site owner chooses to exercise his right to exclude certain kinds of material from his site, he will find that there will be more freedom in other directions. As I have said in previous posts, what makes content objectionable is not so much the precise age of the characters, as the way they are described and treated.

[Rabbit1]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?


Well the policy has not been dropped ---it is however on hold until some of the other forum problem are worked out -----like the back log of stories to be published ---members complete date of birth in their profile----and other little glitches----it will start being enforced as soon as these problems are under control and we have time to go thru the stories-----

In case you have not noticed another BDSM site has gone the way of Red Rose----yes there may have been other underlying conditions ---but do we want underage stories to be the cause of the Hitler like congress having an excuse to shut us down?

this sit is now under investigation----- http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?p=48196&posted=1#post48196

[Dick the Slaver]

To Rabbit1 or Tiger

If I were you, I would look at the new advertizing that you place under Cool Sites before I start looking at underage stories. Example: Lustful Babes contains what looks like ten year olds or under having sex with adults. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Rabbit1]

To Rabbit1 or Tiger

If I were you, I would look at the new advertizing that you place under Cool Sites before I start looking at underage stories. Example: Lustful Babes contains what looks like ten year olds or under having sex with adults. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.


I will mention this again---advertisers are required to keep their own records as long as we have no pictures on this site ---they have to worry about complying with the laws for their site ---we are only concerned with the content of this site

[Barton]

When you are paying for the site you can make whatever stand you choose. It is not your dime here.

[Sweep]

You've got to do what you've got to do to keep the site going.

I agree with others who say that they do not find any abuse of a minor acceptable. I won't miss the removal of the "young" category of story.

BUT - Where does it stop? This is a fantasy site and very possibly folks who are into kiddy sex can escape in stories just like the rest of us can with stories that fit our sexual proclivities.

Maybe we need to use this site to mobilise a political action. Can we not start an email campaign to key legislators along the lines "I read porn and I vote". We can preserve anononimity by using email accounts on hotmail or lycos etc to start an email assult.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

[Barton]

I think that it is a battle that we have no chance of ever winning. We are on the outside and always will be.

The climate now is such that no matter what we would do we will be outgunned and overridded. Defeatist?? No, just a realist. Sadly.

[Pottygirl]

Maybe a silly question, but nevertheless...
If underage stories are being removed, why are some new ones in that category still being added?

[lex ludite]

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it's a matter of first things first. The first thing being that the new Administrator becomes facile in posting stories, regardless of what they contain. Once that issue is well in hand, the hammer will probably drop, missing about half the stories that they tried to eliminate, for the simple reason that many authors did not identify their work as "young", preferring the more broad and generic description known as "teen". There are almost 4000 stories archieved on the site. This means a long and very daunting hunt for the offending stories, with very little support available for this task. Without the cooperation of the authors it could be a rather long time before the site is "purged". Then they can begin the next "mission impossible", eliminating all the stories that contain material that the Attorney General of the US has already decided is obscene. It's going to be a fun year for all concerned. My guess is that when the music ends, this site will be totally gutted of the kind of material that made it a place to post cutting edge material.

[Pottygirl]

Yes, my point though is that the new stories in that genre perhaps should not be posted as it will only make the task of deleting them so much harder. :)

[Spitman]

My guess is that when the music ends, this site will be totally gutted of the kind of material that made it a place to post cutting edge material.

That makes it perfectly clear what kind of material you regard as 'cutting edge'. I certainly hope that this site will be gutted of that kind of material. I do agree that, due to inadequate oversight, bdsmlibrary had become a place to post blatantly pedophilic material, often labelled as 'teen' rather than 'young'. I for one wish this had never happened.

I also hope that the music will not stop for this site anytime soon, and that we will continue to enjoy genuinely creative, varied and erotic adult content involving bdsm, fetish and other related topics, but not kids. That represents enormous scope for creativity, and need not be seen as any kind of narrowing of interest as it was always the officially stated interest area of bdsmlibrary.

[Rabbit1]

You've got to do what you've got to do to keep the site going.

I agree with others who say that they do not find any abuse of a minor acceptable. I won't miss the removal of the "young" category of story.

BUT - Where does it stop? This is a fantasy site and very possibly folks who are into kiddy sex can escape in stories just like the rest of us can with stories that fit our sexual proclivities.

Maybe we need to use this site to mobilise a political action. Can we not start an email campaign to key legislators along the lines "I read porn and I vote". We can preserve anononimity by using email accounts on hotmail or lycos etc to start an email assult.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

That is a great Idea----Why do we not "vote" the people out of office that want to change the current laws. You could hold rallies to support your canidate, get other out to vote, even offer transportation to those who can not get to the polls.

I am not joking here, everyone here wants to voice his opinion and seeks support of that opinion. If you want your opinions to be the place to do it is at the polls. Know what your canidate stands for ----if it is in line with your thinking ---go all out and get him elected. That is the way to change things.

[lex ludite]

Now it's "kids" we're protecting, is it! Who put you in charge? For the record, until a group of whiners got to the original owner of this site, his rules, which were followed by the great majority of those submitting stories, clearly stated that no character could be less than 13. That's thirteen, ten plus three in case you have difficulty with higher math! For your information this 18 year old "rule" fell out of the sky less than three months ago, shortly before Jinn bailed on the site. My guess is that he got a bit nervous about what was coming down from the Feds. The funny thing is that Gonzales hasn't said a word about underage anything! He's however hot and bothered by any reference to bodily functions, bestiality and sadomasochism, which puts this site and your narrow interests squarely in his sights. Here's something else to put in your opium pipe and smoke, today's kids are doing lots of things that would probably curl your little toes when it comes to doing the nasty. The age of consent is different for different countries, look it up, it might cause you to use your mind. I even think that the age of "consent" in some of the more backward portions of the USA is well below 18. I also know that until four or five years ago in Japan there was no such thing as "age of consent", yet it was forbidden to show female genitals, no matter what the publication. You figure that one out! In many Central American countries they haven't the foggiest when it comes to age of consent. Don't start whining that I'm a pedophile, or support such activities; that's pure nonsense! Tiger or his boss is going to do what he wants to do. That is his right. Based on what I'm seeing and hearing from what is at best a vocal minority, the issue about underage stories has been settled, so be it. However this is but the nose of the camel under the site's tent. I stand by my prediction that at the rate things are going, this site won't be worth the powder to blow it to hell in another year. For me personally, it's perhaps a blessing, since I've hit a dry spell that is probably going to become permanent. Believe it or not, it has been suggested by an acquaintance that I should consider writing children's stories, now that I can produce a coherent sentence. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist of fate!

[Spitman]

Who put you in charge?

Nobody. I don't have to be in charge, to have the same right to express my opinion as anybody else, including you. And the site owner can disregard your opinion, or mine. That is his prerogative.

As far as the age of consent is concerned, I am well aware that standards vary in different countries, but age is one thing, and consent is another. It may be legally true that there can be no consent below a certain age, but the way I look at it, material where there is a consenting theme involving a person who has at least the appearance of being sexually mature, is a very different matter from material that involves beating up and raping a kid who is obviously not consenting, and who is treated simply like trash, like 13 year old Lucy in Pagan's story 'Every Cinderelle Has Her Day'. If you think this deserves defending, I am at a loss to know why.

What determines whether a site like this is worth 'the powder', as you say, is the quality of the material in it. It's a no brainer that the overall quality will improve without stuff like that.

[Alex Bragi]

Lex,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the fact that one person's differs from another doesn't necessarily make them a 'whiner'.

Of course, you're not a pedophile (or infantophile) because you support those kinds of stories. Reading or writing them is, in my opinion, a completley different matter. The two are poles appart. Regardless of my stance on the issue, I have clear understanding of that.

As anyone into the lifestyle knows, safe, sane, and consensual are the three pillars of bdsm. Stories of prebubescents being abducted, tortured and raped, again in my opinion, just simply aren't suitable for a bdsm site. I think they should have been flagged from the beginning, but then, it's not my site.

You writing children's stories? Why is it so odd? Over the years many authors have chosen to write in totally different genres. If you do choose that path, I wish you well with it.

[Rabbit1]

I have talked to Tiger About this matter ---and we have sort of a compromise to this issue---we will no longer accept stories with subject under the age of 13----in other words no Preteen stories

and we will only remove those stories with subjects under 13--- this is one of the reasons I had not started removing or rejecting stories---but as of now no under 13 stories will be published and removal will start soon

This is firm---you can post your opinions ---but it will change nothing

[lex ludite]

Alex
This is the second time I have tried to respond to your comments. We don't seem to be talking about the same topic. I'm complaining about this unrealistic decree about all characters having to be 18 in sexual situations. I'm not talking about prepubescents at all. The latest edict from Rabbit1 would seem to suport my position. Support for my point can be found by going to the following site: http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

[Rabbit1]

Alex
This is the second time I have tried to respond to your comments. We don't seem to be talking about the same topic. I'm complaining about this unrealistic decree about all characters having to be 18 in sexual situations. I'm not talking about prepubescents at all. The latest edict from Rabbit1 would seem to suport my position. Support for my point can be found by going to the following site: http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm


I am supporting no ones point of view ---I am just trying to reach a compromise that we all can agree on---so we can just get back to reading and writting stories--instead of trying to change each others minds on a issue ----Each person has a valid opinion---and everyone can come up with some kind of support for their opinion---

I would just like to put this issue behind us and move forward

[ghostsblood]

I must congratulate both of you for comming to a reasonable compromise.

Thank you

[Spitman]

I am happy about a more realistic age limit that excludes preteens. I have no personal problem with material that involves consensual teenage activity of any kind, or the mention of uninvolved preteen characters. I only have a problem with material that involves non-consensual, gratuitous sexual or other violence against preteen characters.

I hope that in the application of the stated policy, judgments will be based also on the description of the characters and not just the stated age, and material should be assessed on that basis even if no specific age is mentioned.

[Rabbit1]

I am happy about a more realistic age limit that excludes preteens. I have no personal problem with material that involves consensual teenage activity of any kind, or the mention of uninvolved preteen characters. I only have a problem with material that involves non-consensual, gratuitous sexual or other violence against preteen characters.

I hope that in the application of the stated policy, judgments will be based also on the description of the characters and not just the stated age, and material should be assessed on that basis even if no specific age is mentioned.

I will have to be the judge of the stories ----and my judgement will be based on the black and white issue ---no stories of any preteen nature will be published--forced or other wise---now that you have brought up the question of non specific age mentioned ---those will be judged on a case by case basis---like if the story says he picked her out of her crib----then I would consider that clearly preteen---but if the story says he ripped the clothes off the young girl---unless there is something else in the story that leeds me to believe it was a preteen then I would publish that story.

now I am human and I may make a mistake ---but if I error ---I will always try to error on the side of protecting the site

[Spitman]

I will have to be the judge of the stories ----and my judgement will be based on the black and white issue ---no stories of any preteen nature will be published--forced or other wise---now that you have brought up the question of non specific age mentioned ---those will be judged on a case by case basis---like if the story says he picked her out of her crib----then I would consider that clearly preteen---but if the story says he ripped the clothes off the young girl---unless there is something else in the story that leeds me to believe it was a preteen then I would publish that story.

now I am human and I may make a mistake ---but if I error ---I will always try to error on the side of protecting the site

I am perfectly happy with that, and thanks for the clarification.