Freewill -v- Destiny [Archive]

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 12:41 AM

As an impressionable teen-ager I was obliged to study works by many French writers both in English and their native French. This surprised me at the time but proved to be no burden as I came to be deeply embroiled in their philosophical postulations. (As an aside I even translated and put my own interpretation on some of the poetry)

The main debate raged around the question of us having free will to do as we please against destiny (or the gods) pre-determining our path.

I won't go into great detail but if you are interested I would point you towards Jean Anouilh-particularly "Antigone"; Jean Cocteau-"The Infernal Machine" and Jean-Paul Sartre "The Outsider".

My question to you is this: Do you subscribe to the idea that the only true freedom we have is the freedom to make our own decisions? (As I believe)
Or that everything has a laid-down path that we blindly follow?

Fo those of you with the free will to answer please do so. To all you others you have no choice but must respond.

submissivewife

05-05-2006, 05:57 AM

Silke

05-05-2006, 06:34 AM

Such an interesting topic...and one that has my head hurt - guess we're even now, Ed? ;)

I'd like to put an even more extreme point of view up for discussion: If you'd ask Behaviorists this question they would tell you that all our decisions are based on what associations we have learned throughout our lives, there's no original bone in our body, and no free will in the classical sense. ;) But it's not the kind of pre-determined destiny that you mentioned. To me, it always sounded a bit like what I am today is a bit of an accident...

I know this probably goes a little to the side of your original topic, but it had some influence on this discussion on me, so I thought I'd share.

My very personal take is that I have free will to decide, it's a belief that I find useful even if it might turn out not to be true. I want it to be true.

The fatalistic perspective has an appeal, it can be reassuring to know that your path is already laid out for you...but it can also trigger helplessness and passive "enduring" of life - and I see that trap for me personally and therefore try to resist it.

Just what works for me - more practical than philosophical *grins*

Silke

Aesop

05-05-2006, 10:05 AM

I refuse to answer on the grounds that I have free will. ;)

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 10:22 AM

I have always felt that we all take paths by choice. BUT I also feel that each choice has a predetermined outcome. It's what you do with the outcome that matters.

Let me see if I can understand this.

One can make a choice out of free will. That much is up to the individual. But as each choice leads down a pre-determined path it is destiny at work. The path, by having a set outcome, is not therefore the result of true free will, the free will in all instances being false.

The illusion of being able to infuence the outcome must also be false as any paths taken lead to another set conclusion.

Do I interpret this correctly to say you see us in a maze? The paths appear to us to be available as indeed they are, but in the bigger picture they all lead to a place that has been set.

In other words this is a take on the multiverse theory, with an infinity of outcomes all set by destiny?

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 10:29 AM

I'd like to put an even more extreme point of view up for discussion: If you'd ask Behaviorists this question they would tell you that all our decisions are based on what associations we have learned throughout our lives, there's no original bone in our body, and no free will in the classical sense.

All nurture and no nature?

Antigone would most certainly agree with you on this one. I believe she would say that it was in her nature to carry out her actions because of pre-determination.

If you have not read Monsieur Anouilh's book it may be worth a look in-Antigone seems to be anything but passive! She has to fight every step of the way to do what she understands is her duty.

Apologies for headache!

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 10:33 AM

I refuse to answer on the grounds that I have free will. ;)

Ah! but, my friend, perhaps I was destined to find this site and pose the question so that you could refuse?

Aesop

05-05-2006, 10:41 AM

Ah! but, my friend, perhaps I was destined to find this site and pose the question so that you could refuse?

I will not be drawn into this discussion Ed. Not gonna happen. I won't post that I find the idea of predestination hellish and that if I thought it was true I'd probably give it all up tomorrow. I won't say that if it is true, I find God to be a cruel bastard who set up a pointless game. No I will not Ed. I will not because I have the free will to refuse.

So there. :nana:

:D

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 10:56 AM

I will not be drawn into this discussion Ed. Not gonna happen. I won't post that I find the idea of predestination hellish and that if I thought it was true I'd probably give it all up tomorrow. I won't say that if it is true, I find God to be a cruel bastard who set up a pointless game. No I will not Ed. I will not because I have the free will to refuse.

So there. :nana:

:D

OK Aesop. I do respect you for not entering into discussion and for clearly not having a point of view. I do...really I do.:pig-fly:

Silke

05-05-2006, 05:22 PM

All nurture and no nature?

Antigone would most certainly agree with you on this one. I believe she would say that it was in her nature to carry out her actions because of pre-determination.

If you have not read Monsieur Anouilh's book it may be worth a look in-Antigone seems to be anything but passive! She has to fight every step of the way to do what she understands is her duty.

Apologies for headache!

Oh boy, I actually read that book in school and successfully wiped it out of my memory - I hated it at the time! But that goes for a lot of literature we had to struggle through. I might give it another try. :)

So, if I understand you correctly you're saying that predetermination (as Antigone sees it) only sets some sort of goal or mission in your life? Like a life long search or task you have to fulfill? And how would you know what it is then? Can you decide to go against it and follow another path? Hmmm... that's cleary a different definition from the one I had in mind. Could you illuminate a little more? :)

Oh, and don't worry about the headache...I like a little pain *grins* and I just love discussions like this. Only wish I knew the theoretical background a little better. :)

fantassy

05-05-2006, 06:31 PM

Oh boy, I actually read that book in school and successfully wiped it out of my memory - I hated it at the time! But that goes for a lot of literature we had to struggle through. I might give it another try. :)

So, if I understand you correctly you're saying that predetermination (as Antigone sees it) only sets some sort of goal or mission in your life? Like a life long search or task you have to fulfill? And how would you know what it is then? Can you decide to go against it and follow another path? Hmmm... that's cleary a different definition from the one I had in mind. Could you illuminate a little more? :)

If I recall my Sophocles correctly, (is that a different Antigone, Ed?) the idea was that you think you have free will to choose, but no matter what choice you make - no matter how hard you try to avoid it, you will end up at your predestined future. Thus posing the query, were you merely predestined to make the choice you made or would have ended up at the same place no matter what choice you made?

That being said I belief in free will (or at least the illusion of it), and although nuture influences us, we have the free will to overcome it.

fantassy

Ozme52

05-05-2006, 10:11 PM

Bibo ergo sum.

Uncle_Ed

05-05-2006, 11:59 PM

So, if I understand you correctly you're saying that predetermination (as Antigone sees it) only sets some sort of goal or mission in your life? Like a life long search or task you have to fulfill? And how would you know what it is then? Can you decide to go against it and follow another path? Hmmm... that's cleary a different definition from the one I had in mind. Could you illuminate a little more? :)

Does pre-determination set a goal or mission?
No-it sets everything.
If our lives are pre-determined then all missions and all goals are already set-we just follow the script...
Can we go against it? No
Can we follow another path? Follow any path you seem to choose; Destiny has been there before you!
I personally will not believe this to be true. I believe in myself, although I'm not sure about the rest of you...!
You sound like my sort of person!
I'd make you read Antigone then set you an exam.
Any wrong answers and...

Uncle_Ed

05-06-2006, 12:08 AM

If I recall my Sophocles correctly, (is that a different Antigone, Ed?) the idea was that you think you have free will to choose, but no matter what choice you make - no matter how hard you try to avoid it, you will end up at your predestined future. Thus posing the query, were you merely predestined to make the choice you made or would have ended up at the same place no matter what choice you made?

fantassy

I believe you are correct about Sophocles.
And about the definition of destiny.
Are we pre-destined to make the choice? Ah! It would be in our nature to make one specific choice..any other would go against our nature.
Would we end up at the same place? yes. Our destination is set.

Horrible idea!

Uncle_Ed

05-06-2006, 12:16 AM

Bibo ergo sum.

Sorry Oz.
I'm just a country boy at heart. Not educated proper. You have me at a disadvantage.

I do have google though.

"I drink therefore I am"

Does that imply philosophy is only as deep as your glass?

Silke

05-06-2006, 04:31 AM

Does pre-determination set a goal or mission?
No-it sets everything.
If our lives are pre-determined then all missions and all goals are already set-we just follow the script...
Can we go against it? No
Can we follow another path? Follow any path you seem to choose; Destiny has been there before you!

Hmm, ok, then my idea of destiny/predetermination was correct, just checking. :)

Again, to me the would make my life pointless...if everything is set and decided and we only had the illusion of control, what's the point? That's why I said it would make me too passive, thinking about it again I'd probably shoot myself.

I personally will not believe this to be true. I believe in myself, although I'm not sure about the rest of you...!

Glad to hear that! *grins*

And honestly, predetermination wouldn't make sense at all anyway...unless you believe that you're in the Matrix or something ;)...who would be able to plan all of this? Is God a bored computer game programmer?

Nah, I stick with my practical approach...if I believe I'm in control I'll probably strive to make the most out of my life - there's no one to blame, but me! ;)

You sound like my sort of person!
I'd make you read Antigone then set you an exam.
Any wrong answers and...

And...? *big grin* Might just be worth it...;)

Uncle_Ed

05-06-2006, 05:01 AM

And honestly, predetermination wouldn't make sense at all anyway...unless you believe that you're in the Matrix or something ;)...who would be able to plan all of this? Is God a bored computer game programmer?

Nah, I stick with my practical approach...if I believe I'm in control I'll probably strive to make the most out of my life - there's no one to blame, but me! ;)

And...? *big grin* Might just be worth it...;)

One advantage to you being in Matrix-dressing like Trinity! I visualise you have cute bum as well as cute brain!

:hubbahubb

It is really a very depressing thought if all our actions are planned for us?
Also need to consider who is puppet master?

Tojo

05-06-2006, 06:27 AM

I know what you're doing here Ed- whizzing towards the magic 150 post mark!

OK- first up, I left school as soon as I was of legal age to do so. I was asleep or away most days & got through by being twice as smart as anyone else.

So all them philosophys would have been taught while I was 'mixin' concrete or drivin' a tracter.'

In answer to your question:
Do you subscribe to the idea that the only true freedom we have is the freedom to make our own decisions? Or that everything has a laid-down path that we blindly follow?

Well I believe in the third choice- both. Sometimes things just happen, sometimes it's a decision.

Tojo

Uncle_Ed

05-06-2006, 11:22 AM

Hey Tojo-I may be a-whizzin' but I'm a-whizzin' in style!

Anyways; I'm destined to do 150.

Silke

05-06-2006, 03:54 PM

One advantage to you being in Matrix-dressing like Trinity! I visualise you have cute bum as well as cute brain!

lol, I'll leave that up to your busy imagination, Ed. Oh, and wouldn't mind if you domly guys dressed a bit Matrix-ish, too...very stylish! ;)

Tojo

05-06-2006, 04:36 PM

Hey Tojo-I may be a-whizzin' but I'm a-whizzin' in style!

Anyways; I'm destined to do 150.

No arguments there Ed. Keep em coming. :wel

Tojo

cariad

05-08-2006, 05:36 AM

Having found myself sitting in a car driving for more hours then is recommended I started to once again muse on this one.

Did I have a choice about driving half the length of the country and back in a couple days, with the prospect of a saggy double bed in the middle of them?

If I did – then why was I doing it – and if I didn’t then perhaps I should just drive over the next bridge.

Nobody will convince that God or the gods or any other spiritual being was sitting up in the sky playing with me like a chess piece. That I had been plucked out of my comfortable home and placed in a tin box for hours on end.

So why was I doing it? Because of particular family circumstances, because of whom I am and how I react to those circumstances, because of my upbringing and family and society’s expectations. Nobody told me to do it. I could have stayed at home. But then I would have felt that I was doing the wrong thing. I would have been miserable as a result, and would have ended up going down the following weekend.

Do I have free will not to go?

Given those exact same circumstances, with the same knowledge and same experience, will I always choose the same option? Why should I not – I did not toss a coin to decide in the first place, I thought it though. If it happens again, I might change my mind, but that is with the benefit of more knowledge, so the scenario has changed.

Okay – where is that bridge? No – I cannot do that, I have to go down to the South Coast again in a couple of weeks time…..

cariad :264:

Uncle_Ed

05-09-2006, 10:42 AM

Thanks to all so far for joining in-you didn't have to...

It's interesting to see that we all subscribe to free will.

I'm not surprised at this as we are the kind of people who take control and face up to life-therefore we should believe in free will. We have viewed life and taken a chosen path that by some of the soul-searching I see here is not always easy to follow.

I hope there will be more posts.

For now though;

INFERNAL MACHINE-WE JUST KICKED YOUR ASS!

Ozme52

05-09-2006, 08:01 PM

Just a second.

Checking seventeen sequential OR Gates, fourteen nested AND Gates.

YES. Freewill reigns.

Kraven

06-30-2006, 03:48 PM

This is a question I've pondered often.. and stumped many a roommate with. Consider this: we can not know if we are making a true free choice or simply doing what we must do. To say it another way, human beings, no matter how much we'd like to think we can, can't know if we have free will or not -- a thought that we consider spontanious could be totally and completely predictiable if we could see/understand the inner workings of our brains.

Simply put, the best you can ever do.. is pick one option at random and cobble up whatever seems sound evidence at the time to support yourself.

_ID_

06-30-2006, 04:20 PM

This has a religous side to it that I would like to comment on.

Christians believe that we have the freedom to choose, and that god is omnipotent, as well as omnipresent. With those beliefs out there, think about it like this. If God knows everything, then he knows what choices we will make, if he knows what choices we will make then do we really have freewill cause he already knows what our will is going to be.

So do we have the freedom to choose, sure, but given a repeat of the same situation, same knoweledge, would we repeat it? Like someone else indicated, most likely yes we would, but who knows for sure. So if God knows everything we will choose in a given situation, does that mean our path in life is predetermined by our own mental make up? Again, who knows?

Interesting thread, real though provoker.

Kraven

07-01-2006, 07:39 AM

IDCrewDawg

Don't try to screw the religious-folk up with logical talk. You'll only make their heads asplode. I've posed that exact question to some very, very devote folks and they tend to fall back on something akin "it's all part of god's plan and we can't know god's plan" - the failsafe statement for anything they can't compute.

It's especially fun if you mix in the bit about being given free will as our greatest gift.. but then, why do so many people claim to do what god tells them to do? God's totally destorying that great gift by _telling_ you what to do. At the very least god's strongly influencing you on what to do.. and that also impunes the notion of us making choices freely -- if I hold a gun to your head and tell you to lick maggot infested horse dookie off my shoe, are you really making a free choice? Afterall, if you don't do what god wants.. you're going to hell, no? That's gotta rank pretty high on the sin scale.

Curious George

07-11-2006, 06:18 AM

Well I believe in the third choice- both. Sometimes things just happen, sometimes it's a decision.

Tojo

That leads me nicely into Carl Jung's concept of Synchronicity, put simply, sometimes there are meaningful coincidences in time and space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity However we then have a choice in how we react to that occurence. In this way, things may look like "fate" but it doesn't mean our lives are laid down in somekind of astral roadmap. Looked at another way: we see a leaf on a tree, we know it will fall downwards at some point, but the time and manner in which this will happen will be affected by the environmental variables at that point in time, eg if it's windy it may go up before it comes down which would seem entirely contradictory to the laws of the universe if we applied the analogy to another situation

The Matrix, ah..... one of my all time top five movies, and not just for Trinity's tightly-wrapped-in-PVC-derriere, I like the Zen like philosophy too.

As for the "we're components in God's big computer game" idea, I saw that idea expounded by respected theoretical physicists on a recent TV prog, but perhaps these guys are really into Trinity's gluteus maximi too :rolleyes:

chattel69

07-11-2006, 07:03 AM

I think we choose our way of our own free-will but we also have a destiny which leads us on our path.

maddie

07-11-2006, 07:42 AM

I do believe that I have free will, but that God has a plan for me and my life. I think that I was put on Earth with some sort of purpose. I can choose to seek out the path that God wants me to take or I can choose to do as I wish.

That said, I do believe that there is some being that occasionally pulls strings so that certain things happen. I do not believe in coincidences. Too many things have happened in my life that have seemed to require somebody leading me toward them to let me believe otherwise. I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe that I have to take advantage of the strings being pulled for me, but I still think someone pulls strings on occasion.

Scorpio'sWill2Power

07-11-2006, 08:02 AM

That leads me nicely into Carl Jung's concept of Synchronicity, put simply, sometimes there are meaningful coincidences in time and space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity However we then have a choice in how we react to that occurence. In this way, things may look like "fate" but it doesn't mean our lives are laid down in somekind of astral roadmap. Looked at another way: we see a leaf on a tree, we know it will fall downwards at some point, but the time and manner in which this will happen will be affected by the environmental variables at that point in time, eg if it's windy it may go up before it comes down which would seem entirely contradictory to the laws of the universe if we applied the analogy to another situation

Outstanding Curious George, I was just about to go the same route
when I saw your post.

Life is action and reaction and that is many times thought
of as fate by some.

Much of life is perception and Jung sets an exceptional example
of that.

Free will determines what the end result in the grand scheme
of things will be.

Uncle_Ed

07-11-2006, 08:51 AM

Hey! My thread re-opened! I knew this would happen! Er...

Warbaby1943

07-11-2006, 08:54 AM

Hey! My thread re-opened! I knew this would happen! Er...
That's what's nice about new people joining the forums. they dig back and find something of interest. Glad to see this thread.

I believe we have the free will to make choices but I think the hand of God gently guides or helps us in those decisions.

Uncle_Ed

07-11-2006, 09:02 AM

Now, of course, I start to point out that nothing we experience is in the present. As we are electro-chemical (soft) machines, by the time we register something, it's already past...

I have no idea how this ties in-what about you?

Warbaby1943

07-11-2006, 09:25 AM

TomOfSweden

09-21-2006, 01:25 PM

That's an easy one. Destiny is a contradiction. If everything is destiny then what's the point doing anything. Why not just go and hang yourself and get it over with. Destiny takes away every joy and sorrow in life, and just makes everything one long pointless journey to an inevitable goal. My experience is that people who say they believe in destiny really don't. They just use the concept for them to avoid having to think about cause and effect in life.

I'm not so sure about that we have free will either. Our brains are wired to react rapidly and powerfully to percieved dangers a lot more than what would be rational. Is that really free will?

SheepishJaina

09-21-2006, 03:25 PM

okay, here goes... I believe that our path is already known. We do make choices. We chose what we want to do or not do. i think of it not as a set path. We don't do something because it's in a "script" but rather that the script for our lives has been written as though someone from the future were writing it out after we've left this world.

From my view, God wants us all to be believers, however if we really had no free will, we all would be already. He knows if we will accept or reject him already. We make that choice on our own, not because he has maliciously gone through a list and randomly checked names of who will or wont accept him.