Burning the American Flag

[Daes]

I read an article today that a Constitutional Amendmant to ban flag burning fell short of only One vote to pass through the Senate and be made into law, 66 to 34 in Favor of the amendmant.

Do you think that burning the american flag should be punishable by law?
Does it cross the boundries of free speech or is it still every person's right?


I'll give my own opinion once I've read a few.

Keep in mind everyone is entitled to their opinion ^_^ but no flammy comments.

[Alex Bragi]

A nation's flag is its symbol of unity.

I think that when you make a big deal out of burning a flag, in public, you show a blatant disrespect for the people of that nation.

Having said that, however, I don't think it should be a 'punishable' offense.

Here, in Australia, people burn flags left, right, and centre--they quite literally use it as a protest against all sides of the government. The majority of us, don't like it, but I've never heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for doing it. I mean, what would be the point? It would simply give more publicity to what ever cause was being protested by the flag burners in the first place.

And, no I don't think it's every person's right.

[Ozme52]

I think that when you make a big deal out of burn a flag, in public, you show a blatant disrespect for the people of that nation.



This law is about citizens burning their own flag, (as you point out later in your post...)

The USA is supposed to be about freedoms and this law is a knee-jerk reaction against those who would "dare" criticize the current leadership, whomever it may be at the time.

I'm glad the amendment failed to pass. Take away all the non-violent means of protest and what will that leave us?

[fantassy]

this law is a knee-jerk reaction against those who would "dare" criticize the current leadership, whomever it may be at the time.

I agree with you Oz, as usual. Don't you think this was yet another attempt for Congress to appear to be doing something when they are trying to avoid actually governing, which might piss someone off right before the midterm election? I mean, I haven't seen a rash of flag-burning lately.

fantassy

[Ozme52]

No, I blame this on the ultra conservatists who support Bush-Cheney. They pushed forward this amendment and the Senate was literally forced to consider it.

That being said, I'm disappointed with the large number who were scared of pissing off their constituencies and actually voted for it.

The amendment I'd like to see is the line-item veto. So that good Bills don't get linked to bad spending and pork barrels.

[Alex Bragi]

So, you think it's a bit of red herring perhaps? Interesting, and cold comfort to know it happens in other countries too.

Look, I know the US is about freedoms, but when you choose to live in a country/community, shouldn't you expect to live by certain rules and standards that are acceptable to the majority? I mean, OZme52, tell me honestly, do you have the 'freedom' to walk out of your house right now, naked and smoking a joint? :D

[arwcuw]

I think the flag is a symbol, nothing more. Taking it a bit further, I think it's little more than a colorful piece of fabric. I don't think there should be a law against burning a piece of fabric it at all. It brings up the question: if you're in the wilderness, and it's freezing cold, and your fire is dying, and you have an American flag that would give you a few minutes more of heat, should you be arrested for adding it to the fire?

Of course, I think it's pretty damn stupid for an American to burn an American flag for political reasons. If you must burn something, burn a symbol of the thing you're protesting, not a symbol of the thing that's given you the freedom to burn things. Actually, I think the pyros ought to find less poluting ways to get attention.

[Daes]

Awesome opinions everyone, Ive enjoyed reading them all ^^ Now I get to put out my share of the fun cause I feel pretty strongly towards this matter.

I understand that the American flag is a symbol of patriotism and freedom that thousands and thousands of soldiers have died protecting throughout the decades time and time again. I could understand how veterans within the Senate would feel offended and feel strongly about having their flag burned without a care by individuals that have never had to risk their lives for their country. Personally, I don’t /like/ the burning of out flag, in fact I think it’s ignorant and spiteful…

However.

My opinion should not be made into law. My personal feelings about an action should not be imposed upon others. Laws are made to prevent others from hurting each other, burning the national flag does no harm to anyone. It is simply an act of expression, and this Right is what the United States prides itself upon. That we are free to express ourselves through Non-Violent Acts, we can shout and scream and curse our politicians so long as we are not directly threatening them with harm (of course not without being removed from their presence).

How is it any different than holding up a banner or sign outside of Congress’ gates? Because it offends? Well God forbid we offend someone. Does that mean the possibility to offend is grounds for a law to ban such an action or word? Of course not! Because My opinion should not be made into law.

It really bothers me that it came so close, though I suppose the new congress shall be voted in within the next year. Just that, if they are willing to put through such a /small/ thing, what will come next?

[Alex Bragi]

This is an interesting thread, and your response is excellent and well expressed, Daes.

You live in a democratic nation where you have voice and a vote, and so while you say "your opinion should not be made into law", your opinion most certainly does count.

[Warbaby1943]

My opinion should not be made into law.

I agree. However if the majority of "we the people" feel the same way, then it should indeed be made into law. I believe we, at the very least, should have the opportunity to vote on it.

I think burning the flag by one's own people is very disrespectful. If you have ever served in the military you probably develop very strong feelings one way or the other on this subject. I know I did! I would certainly hope you felt this nation and its flag are worth protecting. I'm not saying to send people to jail for burning the flag. I believe they should definitely be heavily fined. To me it is an insult to all veterans who have served their country and put their own lives on the line so someone has the right to remain free and protest.

What are they saying when they burn the flag? If it is that they don't like what it stands for and the country they live in, then there are always other countries where they can move and try to burn their new country's flag.

Burn the flag only to destroy one that has served its purpose. I'd probably want to shoot the SOB that tried to burn the flag that draped my fathers coffin. There are means to get your point across other than burning a flag.

This is my opinion.

[Silke]

I always get the chills when I hear a great deal of patriotism - might be due to growing up in a country where shouting out 'I'm proud to be German' would have gotten you a lot of weird and hostile looks. ;)

But apart from that (I'm quite comfortable with my nationality now ;)), I've never seen the point of putting that much on symbols, be it a flag, a cross or whatever. It's just a symbol and not everybody is going to feel the same about it. And if someone burns a flag, I might not like the ideas behind it, but it doesn't take anything away from my values, beliefs or whatever.

I think the reactions after the Mohammed caricatures were released shows where being too fanatic about symbols and beliefs can lead to... What harm do I do to you personally if I burn a US flag to protest against Bush for example? It might not be the most elegant way for protest, but it doesn't do any real harm, either. It only destroys a piece of fabric, not the ideas behind it for those who believe in them.

*waves German flag happily to support our football team* ;)

[Rabbit1]

I think the time and effort spent on this bill would have been better spent on other issues like affordable healt care---the flag is means only things that a particular person thinks about them ---yes I love the flag --to me it is a symbol of freedom that many have died to give us. And part of that freedom is the right of expression ---burning the flag is an expression ---the Supreme Court had already said that this fell under the freedom of speach part of the constitution ---so why are our senate and congress wasting time and our money on this again. one problem is we are not looking forward ---lets spend time saving Social Security --not looking back at a law that was defeated years ago---Lets take care of our people ---that is what the flag stands for ---one people united under god ---with liberty and justice for all

And not it is not just a Republican issue ---some Democrats jumped on the bandwagon ---they keep looking to get reelected instead of taking a stand on what is right---yes I think there should be term limits in the congress

The fat cats get too comfortable there---and seem to forget who put them there and why they are there --until reelection time when they all of a sudden remember---and tell you all the things you want to hear

I am a Democrat---but I am sick of hearing about how messed up the Medicare drug card is ----During the Clinton administration --We the Democrats had an opportunity to pass one ---we did nothing --now because it passed under the Republicans--we bash it as not being good enough well listen fellow Democrats ---it may not be ---but it is a hell of a lot better than the nothing we passed---

So burn the flags ---say what you want ----but remember ---the men who laided down their lives for you to have that right

I would rather see people burn the flag to get their point across than use terrorism to do the same thing--which is not legal ---but still happening
So what difference is a law going to make about burning a flag---lets enforce the laws we have

[katie_21]

I don't think it should really be punishable by law, however I do think it's a waste of time. And just my opinion but if you hate America that bad, then get the hell out.

[_ID_]

Interesting responses by everyone. I have seen the news, but I was at a location I was unable to access the internet. Now that I am back I am glad to be able to partcipate in this discussion.

My view - Even if it had been approved, it wouldn't have become law. Two reasons. One The Supreme Court already ruled that the first amendment says that the act of burning the flag falls into it's protection of freedom of speach. So if congress were to pass a law that were to oppose this, and the supreme court didn't rule that the amendment was unconstituional, then the supreme court would be admiting error in judgment. I believe this wouldn't take place. Second reason it wouldn't become law. The states must ratify the amendment for it to become law. I don't think that this would occur either. Why, well just gut feeling mostly.

I am an United States of America Soldier. I go to work everyday so that those freedoms established by the constitution are defended, and upheld. I would willingly give my life to defend a libreal who was protesting my actions by burning a flag.

Freedom of expresion is one of the very basic rights america was founded on. It has a religious foundation, but its implications are far reaching. I think that once goverment begins erroding those freedoms currently guarenteed by the us constituion. Our country will quickly go downhill (as far as the freedoms we are guarenteed).

Thank you for allowing me to express my views here. It is truely an honor to be able to think I am in the collective of this group.

V/R
ID

[Warbaby1943]

I am an United States of America Soldier. I go to work everyday so that those freedoms established by the constitution are defended, and upheld. I would willingly give my life to defend a libreal who was protesting my actions by burning a flag.
V/R
ID
I salute and thank you for what you are doing and hope you never have to give up your life for anyone. I guess the flag just holds more symbolism for me than maybe it should. However, I hate to see it being desecrated by people who would never even consider defending it.:)

[heycarrieanne]

I read today that were 45 reported instances of flag burning between 1777 and 1989! This is not exactly a huge problem in this county, IMHO!!!

[Kraven]

First... I'm a bad boy, I didn't read all the replies -- so this is just my thinking without any clouding from what's already been posted.

1) Constitutional Amendmants should be.. to preserve freedoms/rights. NONE of the current/active amendmants limit freedom - unless I'm horribly wrong. The only one that did was prohibition... and that got repealled.

2) We like to call our country the "Home of Free and the Land of the Brave" and we also like to say we are a Melting Pot. Nothing can be more basic.. more vital to the notion of being free than the right to express yourself however you see fit -- provided you aren't harming anyone else. Patriotism isn't about blind love and approval for your country, it's about loving your country enough to do whatever, no matter how unpopular with the majority, needs to be done to get the attention that's needed. We need to be brave enough to let folks do what they feel they need to do to express themselves.

Yes, you can be a patriot and say the current situation in Iraq is wrong.

Yes, you can say we shouldn't be in Iraq, but say you fully support out troops.

If you can't quite grasp how can do each of these, then your mind isn't quite as open as you might think it is.

Yes, I feel folks who have served and died in the military have been fighting for just this sort of "right" - living free doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.. or values things the same way. The fact that we are meltingpot means we are going to have very different views on a lot of issues.

All that being said.. I feel the need to include.. something regarding my own views on a few issues -- I don't like Bush. I'm not so sure Kerry would be better.. in fact, that those two were the "best" choices saddens me greatly. I tend to vote for Libertarian (www.lp.org) folks.

Can I ever see myself burning the flag? No. I don't much see the point of buring a flag. I don't see how it supports anything, but then then PETA folks like to do naked protests -- I guess people feel doing something "shocking" will raise awareness and, hopefully, support.

Do I like I live in a country where I can, if I choose, burn the flag and ridicule my leader and not face jail time or death? Yes! That's exactly what makes this such a great place to live.

Any and all typos.. and gramatical errors.. are the fault of a bottled labeled Knob's Creek -- where Abe Lincoln was born -- and not the typist.

[heycarrieanne]

Good post, Kraven!!

[Warbaby1943]

Kraven,
You make a lot of valid points. Still I would like to see some other form of protest other than burning our nations flag, a symbol of all those freedoms you and everyone else holds so dearly to their hearts.

[Ozme52]

So, you think it's a bit of red herring perhaps? Interesting, and cold comfort to know it happens in other countries too.

Look, I know the US is about freedoms, but when you choose to live in a country/community, shouldn't you expect to live by certain rules and standards that are acceptable to the majority? I mean, OZme52, tell me honestly, do you have the 'freedom' to walk out of your house right now, naked and smoking a joint? :D


No... but maybe I should. Is human nudity really any different than a dog, or a horse? And who do I hurt if I smoke on my own property?

But more importantly, this would be a NEW rule and one which serves no purpose save to eliminate my ability to legally protest in this manner.

[Ozme52]

I think the flag is a symbol, nothing more. Taking it a bit further, I think it's little more than a colorful piece of fabric. I don't think there should be a law against burning a piece of fabric it at all. It brings up the question: if you're in the wilderness, and it's freezing cold, and your fire is dying, and you have an American flag that would give you a few minutes more of heat, should you be arrested for adding it to the fire?

Of course, I think it's pretty damn stupid for an American to burn an American flag for political reasons. If you must burn something, burn a symbol of the thing you're protesting, not a symbol of the thing that's given you the freedom to burn things. Actually, I think the pyros ought to find less poluting ways to get attention.


...Which is why it almost never happens. Flag burning is a very rare event... yet it has become a rallying point for the ultra-conservatists. What they are trying to do is win the easy points and get the ball rolling... to eliminate dissent.

[Alex Bragi]

[Ozme52=No... but maybe I should. Is human nudity really any different than a dog, or a horse? [/quote]

I don't know Ozme52, how titilated are you by the sight of a naked dog or horse anyway? :D (Sorry! *lol*)

Great post, Kraven!

[Kraven]

Warbaby1943

You do realize that the vast majority of flags aren't even made in this country right? The one's I've checked tend to say China, Tiawan, and, if memory serves, Vietnam. Why an uproar about burning something that's not even made here?

Could I see an uproar if the original flag was burned? Yes -- that flag as a whole heck of a lot of meaning & significance.. but a flag bought at Wal-mart?

If someone burned a home-printed copy of the constitution, would you care?

Interestingly, when I see a flag being burned.. the general notion I take from it isn't tha the burners are destroying the flag/burning the country -- but that they are saying whoever they are protesting is that doing. That if they are protesting Bush, then it's Bush who's destroying the country and they are using the flag to show that.

The whole "hitch" about a country based on freedoms is that you are always, always, always going to have neighbors doing something you don't like. People are diverse.

Back to your post.. the very fact that we are free to burn the flag.. is what's so great about it. If you start to limit freedoms.. then you are limiting what the flag stands for -- you are devaluing it. You are limiting this country.. and, I argue, NOT a patriot. If you want to live in a country with lots of laws that limit what you can and can't do.. well, just close your eyes, spin the globe and jab your finger on a spot (hopefully, you'll get something other than ocean after a few trys).

[chattel69]

I don't know if it was just my upbringing or what but I already thought it was illegal to burn the flag, I guess it is just immoral. I know people do it as a protest but I don't see the flag as part of the government. To me the flag is a symbol of our independence and freedom. I just think it is disrespectful to alter the flag in anyway be it burning, turning it into a camp chair, or clothing.

[Alex Bragi]

Kraven,
You make a lot of valid points. Still I would like to see some other form of protest other than burning our nations flag, a symbol of all those freedoms you and everyone else holds so dearly to their hearts.

Exactly! All valid points but...

Kraven, it doesn't matter where a flag is made, it still represents the same thing, and burning it, as protest, will still be highly offensive to many people whether it's made here, there, or where ever.

I think perhaps the importance of this is really not the legality of flag burning, which seems to be the focus here, but more the morality of it.

Living in Australia, I have right to speak out about politics, religion, sex—damn it anything I want really, but I often choose not to. Why? Because in certain circumstances it's just not appropriate, and so I respect those situations to the extent of taking care about what I say and do. I think we all do it to a certain extent, don't we? I mean, isn't that what being civilised is all about?

Sure, a nation's flag maybe just a piece of cloth to a lot of people, and that's fine, that's their view and they're certainly entitled to it.

I agree people are diverse. Surely that's what makes life so interesting, but is it really asking so much, is it really such a sacrifice to bear to understand and respect that the flag means more to some people than others? A person's beliefs are what make them who and what they are, and to many people the symbols of who and what they hold great signifigance. I feel that it's extremely selfish and self-indulgent to desecrate something that's important to someone else, but not you, just because you feel it's your right to use it in that way, wouldn't you agree?

George Bush adheres to strong Christian beliefs. I'm agnostic, so Christian symbols don't mean anything to me, but I still wouldn't go chopping up a cross or desecrating pictures of Christ as a form of protest. The flag is just a piece of cloth, as a cross is just piece of wood, and so forth for any 'symbol'.

Burning your nation's flag is like many things, you can do, but maybe you just shouldn't. :)

[Alex Bragi]

chantell69, I just want tell you, yes, yes, and yes!

[Warbaby1943]

Alex,
Very, very well stated. I wish some of the flag burners could read it.

[DungeonMaster6]

Personally, burning the U.S. flag is reprehensible. It's just one of those things you just don't do.

Yet, as it has been stated here so eloquently, freedom of expression is such a valuable right, that even flag burning( which is definitely an expression) is allowed. Try living in a country where if you committed such a heinous act, you'd be executed.

[Tojo]

Excellent post Daes, damn these young people are smart these days.

Yes I agree it's disrespectful & stupid to burn any flag- if I saw someone doing it I'd want to slap them.

As for making it law, that's about as smart as burning your country's flag.

In Australia, I fear & dislike the current government- both sides really, but don't blame it on my country. I love this place. :)

Tojo

[Texalp]

I thought Texas was right; when its flag burning law was struck down, we just made flag burning fighting words. If someone burns a flag and I take offense;then if I beat it to a pulp I have a defense in court. The flag burning started the fight.
The Constitution is protected, his right t burn a flag is protected, and my right to express my displeasure is protected. Halal are happy.
Now if only we could protect spanking the same way All would be well. Al

[Silke]

hmm...peaceful protest vs beating someone to a pulp and getting away with it?

[fantassy]

Perhaps I am mistaken here, but I thought burning is actually considered to be the only properly respectful way of disposing of an old flag. If so, flag burning is not, in itself, a sign of disrepect. As Kraven so eloquently argued, it is a statement of protest against government policies which are effectively destroying the very things for which the flag stands.

Although I personally would not burn a flag in protest, I find government policies which trample the freedoms for which this country stands a far greater desecration than flag burning.

Moreover, our Constitution is something special, something to be rarely amended. Even the Equal Rights Amendment (remember the ERA?) was not seen to be important enough to justify amending the Constitution. Although we might believe flag burning is not an appropriate method of protest, it does not rise to the level of importance to justify amending the Constitution.

fantassy

[cheeseburger]

Burning flags is one thing, but has anyone noticed doormats with the flag pattern on them? I think wiping your feet on the flag would be in the same category as burning it, but no one talks of a ban on doormats :(

[Kraven]

Sorry I'm so long winded...

I shudder to contemplate the notion that burning a flag would get you killed in this country. If that really equates as a justified and logical response to someone burning a flag.. well, read no further.. we've not much to discuss and I pray I never live anywhere near where you do.

I've yet to hear one logical reason why flag burning should be banned. Everyone for the ban is talking from the point of emotion that they _feel_ the flag is to important a symbol.

Laws are, simply put, about protecting people from harm - be it physical harm, emotional harm or harm to things we own. I can see it as a bit of a stretch to say burning the flag causes emotional harm -- but surely no more harm that it would cause someone from the Religious Right to see two gay guys kissing openly in a public place. Some folks find this act just as distasteful if not more so as they feel it's an affront to god than burning a mere symbol of man... should this be illegal? You speak of morality.. do you really want morality governed by laws? I don't think you want the discussion to go down that road.. given that a great many things that folks enjoy on this site would be labeled "immoral" by the majority.. and therefore made illegal....

I don't feel that flag burning causes anyone injury or harm... at least if it's a flag I bought. If I steal a flag and burn it, well then I harmed someone else's property and theft is a crime.

As for important symbols.. what if someone burned a replica of the Constitution? Should that be banned? Surely it should.. it's just as important a symbol! What about burning a bald eagle in effigy? What about burning the president in effigy? You may dislike the man, but where's the respect for the office? What about the doormat above -- cleaning the mud off your shoes on the flag is ok? I mean after all, only a great patriot and lover of this country would want you clean your feet off on the flag! You can buy toilet paper with Bush's face on it - shouldn't that be banned? What's more offensive than wiping shit from your ass with our president's face?!

Again, simply because you find an act of dissidence distasteful.. doesn't mean you should seek to ban it.

Again, I've no desire to burn the flag.. I don't think it's anything more a desperate attempt to draw attention.. and if your cause is "right enough" you don't need to draw attention to it.

Again, read the amendments they are about protecting the people from various abuses or ensuring this or that right -- save for the 18th and 21st. Can you really read them and say protecting the flag is on the same level as the rest?

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out -- because I was not a communist..."

[Kraven]

Heck, I'll go one further.. given the state of affairs in this country and the world in general.. is this issue really something the Senate should be debating?

I wonder how many hours of time the Sentate spent on this.. I'd like to think each and everyone one of us could name a dozen issues more worthy of their time and focus.

[cheeseburger]

Heck, I'll go one further.. given the state of affairs in this country and the world in general.. is this issue really something the Senate should be debating?

To be fair the number of annual flag-burning incidents increased by 33%. From 3 to 4.

This issue is inessential, but in essence I agree with you (Kraven).

[Alex Bragi]

Kraven, just the record, I don't think anyone here is any where near bigoted enough to suggest that flag burning should be a capital offence. So, shudder no more.

I agree many people do have an ambivalence towards their nations' flags. Quite frankly, I find it odd.

You're right there has been no 'logical' reason given here as to why flag burning should banned. You say, " I pray I never live anywhere near where you do ", so, I’m assuming you're a theist of some kind. Even if you weren't, as an intelligent man, you must realise that there doesn't always have to be 'logical' reason behind everything in life.

And, no I don't want "morality governed by laws", and don't think anyone here does either, but I do like to see every single person's beliefs and values respected.

If I may digress…

No doubt you've hear of the notorious Fred Phelps and his band of misery makers.

New laws were introduced in the US recently that bar protesters within 300 feet of the entrance of a national cemetery and within 150 feet of a road into the cemetery. This restriction applies an hour before until an hour after a funeral. Those violating the act would face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison.

Well, you might ask, is this a necessary protection or an erosion of rights?

I feel it's neither. It's respect verses inappropriate civil conduct. I believe in the right to protest, but I also believe that the right to protest should not override civil rights of others.

Finally, (for now) I want to make one thing here crystal clear, if you want to buy a flag, take it home and throw down in your back yard, stomp on it, spit on it, burn it, or whatever, I don’t give a monkey nut's about it. But please, just have little respect for those who might find it offensive, consider them, and consider using another form of protest.

[Daes]

Awesome points.

I'd like to point out that flag burning would not be affecting someone physically say the way (just an example) hordes of people would be attempting to gather at a funeral that they are not directly related to (ie press/admirers/fans). I could understand a law that would help to make a funeral more private... private and easier to access because (i think) thousands of people trying to attend a funeral that they are not connected to can cause direct problems for the family when they are trying to access a friend/family member's funeral. I can't help feeling that that is another matter entirely.

When you take an object, be it flag or anything of your own property, and destroy it (because thats what you are doing, destroying your own property) it is not getting in the way of anyone else, preventing someone from doing something, or imposing anything on anyone. Its simply an act, taking a piece of property (store bought or otherwise) and destroying it for your own personal means.

[fantassy]

It's respect verses inappropriate civil conduct. I believe in the right to protest, but I also believe that the right to protest should not override civil rights of others.

Finally, (for now) I want to make one thing here crystal clear, if you want to buy a flag, take it home and throw down in your back yard, stomp on it, spit on it, burn it, or whatever, I don’t give a monkey nut's about it. But please, just have little respect for those who might find it offensive, consider them, and consider using another form of protest.

We don't (or at leasted we haven't so far) amend(ed) the Constitution to force people to "have a little respect". Furthermore, I'm sure that some people in the 60's and 70's thought that burning bras in protest was "offensive". Are we to amend the Constitution to prohibit that form of protest?

It is not that I don't find flag-burning offensive, I do.
But just because I, or even "the majority", find something is offensive doesn't mean it should be outlawed. More importantly, at least to me, we don't use a nuclear weapon to kill a fly at a picnic simply because the fly bothers us. Yes, the fly will be destroyed but so will the picnic.

fantassy

[Kraven]

Alex Bragi, go back a page.. my shuddering was in refernce to the comment by DungeonMaster6 -- which I now see I misread. These sorts of things are why I much better at lurking than posting... less mistakes!

Personal, I'd like to see the pressures of society take care of these sorts of issues -- both the flag one and the funeral one. I'd also like to see it take care of things like invasion of privacy that celebs/famous folk have to endure.

Sadly, such things sell papers.. and the public, in general, doesn't seem to care enough for there to be a meaningful backlash. Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.

[Warbaby1943]

[QUOTE=Kraven Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.[/QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth.

[Piercingaze]

As a member of the US Military I am truely appaled everytime I see someone burn the flag. For those of you that have not seen this think about what you will read in the following.

Charles M. Province, USMC
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

While I do not like that people will burn the flag just remember one thing, that there are those of us out there that see it as more than just a fancy piece of cloth hanging from houses schools and other buildings. It represents the country we are out there risking our lives to defend and make safe for you.

[Alex Bragi]

I'd like to point out that flag burning would not be affecting someone physically say the way (just an example) hordes of people would be attempting to gather at a funeral that they are not directly related to… (ie press/admirers/fans).

The new law has absolutely nothing to do with press, admirers or fans, or accessing funerals, and everything to do with low life Fred Phelps and his ilk. Yes, "Reverend" Fred Phelps, also know as Fred 'I hate fags' Phelps, who feels that, no matter how offensive and distasteful it may be to others, it's his 'right' to protest and at gay and military funerals.

Thankfully, he never was attracting huge hordes of followers at funerals. He wasn't destroying any property. He wasn't getting in the way of anyone else, or even preventing anyone from conducting a funeral. In fact, the only thing he was doing was exercising his right to freedom of expression and his right to protest.


We don't (or at leasted we haven't so far) amend(ed) the Constitution to force people to "have a little respect". Furthermore, I'm sure that some people in the 60's and 70's thought that burning bras in protest was "offensive". …

Hasn't Fred, effectively, been forced to 'have a little respect"?

I think it's trivialising the whole issue to compare a nation's flag with a woman's bra. I reiterate, a flag is a symbol of a nation and its people, a bra is not.


It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

There's certainly an incredible irony is that, isn't there?

[Daes]

What about protecting the family's privacy?

I think that law has its place, I just.. still dont understand what banning flag burning would be protecting.

[Alex Bragi]

What about protecting the family's privacy?

I think that law has its place, I just.. still dont understand what banning flag burning would be protecting.

That's a fair question, Daes, so I'll do my best to tell you what I think.

Like I said, it's like many thing in life, you can do it, but maybe you just shouldn't. I feel it's a matter of respecting and protecting people's sense of what's civil and what are acceptable community standards. It has nothing to do with what's legal and everything to do with what's moral.

I've enjoyed reading the various posts/opinions here, and certainly I respect the differing points of view. I don't feel I have anything more to offer on this topic, so rather than boring you all to death with more reiterations, I think I need to agree to disagree. :)

Thank you, Daes, it's been a great thread. :)

[mkemse]

If I am incorrect, please some one correct me, I remember a number of years back, I read that the United States Governemnt has specific speficiations for the US Flagg, it is so many inches tall, wide ect.
In addition to this, I was reminded by a scholar years ago, that unless a flag or flags or that very specific hieght, width and the exact dementions set by the US Govermnet, that any flagg that does not all withing these speicif dementions is in fact a replica or duplica copy of the actual flag.
Given this, and i neither support those who do burn the flag, nor do i critisie them, I believe if they flag(s) they are burning are the within the ecact size specifications set by the US Gornerment, then what they are burninig is in fact not the flag but rather a copy of it. What needs to be asked is, is is acrime to dystroy, burn ect a copy of the flag as oppsed to the acutaly flag itself based on dementions.
If this is true, we get critisized for burninig, the flag, but do not get crtisized, for wearing shirts that look like the flag, watch bands or as mentioned even doormats that look like the flag
So if there are specific dimentions for an official flagg to be considered an actauly flag and not a copy of it when a flagg is burned, are we burining the flag or a copy and if it is a copy then it seems to me it is not offensive
as we are doing to so to copy of the original and not the original
My other question is, if someone had a COPY of the US Consitution a copy of it, and they torn it, or shredded a COPY of it would that violate federal law, do we condem those who destroy copies or only the original.
Our Men and Woemn in uniform who have fought over the years to protect the freedoms we have and enjoy, it seems to me that one of those freedoms is freedom of speach and expression without fear of arrest or jail, if this is trun, then our people in the military who have fought and dies, have done so to protect ALL our freedoms, among which is burnnig the flag, as per the recent Supremem Court ruling
My intent is NOT to offend anyone readingthis but simply ask a question for thought and make a statement, if we have any former members of the military reading this and you are offended by my words my profound apologies for that, and my heart felt thanks for protecting our rights and freedoms over the years

[_ID_]

There are some US Codes that govern the treatment of the flag here (http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html)



The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

This is all I could find for a definition of the us flag. It comes from US Code Title 4,3.

Hope this helps clarify the question about what is considered a US Flag.

V/R
ID

[Curious George]

Well at least the American flag is still just that, a symbol of America. Here in the UK both our flags (there is one for England - The cross of St George, and one for the UK - the Union Jack) were subverted to become icon of the British National Party, who are in essence thinly disguised neo-nazis. It is now becoming a concerted effort in the UK to "reclaim" the flags and remove the negative connotations.

However right now I wouldn't mind burning the Italian flag! 5-3 on penalties fer gawds sake! I'm gutted...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5163914.stm

[cheeseburger]

However right now I wouldn't mind burning the Italian flag! 5-3 on penalties fer gawds sake! I'm gutted...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5163914.stm

hey, after zidanes headbutt i think france deserved to lose. shame on him.

and if you think about it, france only scored a goal on a penalty, while italy scored cleanly. (actually twice, but one was clearly offside).

[pttwyn]

As usual there are many opinions about flag burning itself. I even read one suggestion that it was Bush/Cheney who wanted it made into a law. The question of flag burning has been around for many years. Back during the 1960's people were arrested for flag burning during the Viet Nam protests. One young man (I don't remember where) was arrested for using the flag as a patch on the seat of his pants.

The question asked was whether it should be made constitutionaly illegal. Thomas Mann once said "The government that govers best, governs least." I do not care to smoke and I really don't care if others get to smoke in public, but should it be illegal to smoke? It's an invasion of my privacy to make it illegal.:dont:
The constitution should not be changed whenever it allows something that someone just does't like.
A flag that is no longer to be used as a symbol of the country must be disposed of by burning. When someone burns it, it's no longer in the hands of someone who shouldn't have had it.

[TheKnothead]

The amendment I'd like to see is the line-item veto. So that good Bills don't get linked to bad spending and pork barrels.

I hear you on that one...
I also agree with you about the flag burning. I don't like it, but I don't think it should be a crime either.

[Asia]

Oh my, in mainland Britain, the national flags (NOT the Union Jack - that is 'reserved' for English patriots, Royalists and extreme right wing Nazis) cause so little offence in the main, I'm not sure anyone can be bothered burning them. Apart from maybe the Irish Republicans, and well, they have good reason. If like the UK nations and Ireland, each US state had it's own flag to be proud of there would be no need for such concerns. The Scots wear the St. Andrew's Cross (the Saltire), the Welsh wear the Dragon and the Northern Irish (Protestants), the Red Hand flag. Actually, ignore the above, while writing this down, I just realised I'm a reluctant pacifist! The Red Hand of Ulster and the Union Jack have the power to cause great anger.

I think we should stick to burning our bras *smiles*

[Asia]

hey, after zidanes headbutt i think france deserved to lose. shame on him. and if you think about it, france only scored a goal on a penalty, while italy scored cleanly. (actually twice, but one was clearly offside).


Okay, I'm half French and I have to say something here. Zidane's attack was not an expression of red mist but a provoked act of instumental aggression, not hostile aggression. And how Italy love to dive - my Italian friends cannot deny this either and don't. Zinadine knew this was his last chance to shine for France yet the man thought, to hell with it, my family's respect and for my mother or a game in which we're all paid a zillion pounds a week to be rather good at this beautiful game. Zidane was a key part in making football THE beautiful game. He will NOT be remembered for that incident but for his long career as a probably the most skillful footballer in the world. For true lovers of this beautiful game anyway.
[With speakers on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r8jcaeuKPI]

Two words: Serie B
Another two: Match fixing
Last word: Italy
[Defensively brilliant but no art or attack, that is not what the game is about]

[Qmoq]

I think we should all stick to burning our bras *smiles*

While you're wearing them?

I'm not aware of burning the flag being so important in other countries - as Asia says, it's nowhere near as important in Britain, no matter what the Daily Mail says.

I suppose it's that there aren't equivalent evocative symbols for other countries as that "Raising the stars and stripes in Iwo Jima" image (oo I hope it was Iwo Jima otherwise I'll feel foolish). The way that USA rallied around that flag that was rescued from the Twin Towers proved that it's a little more than just a piece of cloth. I don't think it's more important than human life... so if some zit-faced teen in some crappy college burns the flag, I don't think he should be beaten up.

(For Britain, I think the most common evocative image that touches the country is either a poppy field on the Somme... or the image of St Paul's Cathedral standing proudly during the middle of a month-long Nazi bombing campaign on London. Sad that they're both related to war, but neither involves a flag. I can see someone burning a poppy over here being as frowned upon as burning a flag over there.)

Well, I did a whole paragraph on the topic there, so I'll go back to thinking about Asia burning her bras. Yum. Maybe lighting a candle with them, and writing "down with war" on her stomach with the wax...

Sigh!

Q xx

[Asia]

Well, I did a whole paragraph on the topic there, so I'll go back to thinking about Asia burning her bras. Yum. Maybe lighting a candle with them, and writing "down with war" on her stomach with the wax...
Sigh!

Q xx

*laughs*

Q, that would be divine but as we've now got Martin O'Neil, can you do that while I'm watching Villa kick the rest of the Premierships ass *ahem*
~blows kiss to the cheeky and very wise Q~
Asia
xxx

[_ID_]

Many poems and such have been written about the American flag. One of the reasons Americans find it as a source of pride is due to how the nation was developed (or perceived as developing).

Americans feel that as a nation we are a melting pot of other nations, coming together as one people. We fought for independence, for the right to govern ourselves. The flag became a source of defiance to the British crown. The nations anthem is written as a tribute to the idea that even under the insistent bombing and attacks, it still flew, never to be brought down in battle as surrender.

The flag represents American strength, American tenacity, American will power. Our devotion to the idea that all nations should have the right to govern themselves (that particular notion could be a lengthy debate and another thread).

So when you see Americans rally about the American flag in times of national sorrow, or flown at half mast. It is done to rally about the sacrifice that was given in the name of a nation, that was once just colonies, and came together, in a union of states. Motivated for a common cause.

Now to the reason someone might burn the flag (other than established disposal/retirement of a flag). When someone burns the American flag, and it doesn't matter what nationality, or nation you are in or from. When you burn the flag, it is to protest the actions of the American government, its actions. To protest the policies that are being set. Burning the flag is as much of a symbol of individuality and freedom as is the flag its self.

As far as the Iwo Jima flag raising. That was as much of a symbol of prevailing over the enemy, as much as is the rally around the flag found in the rubble of the towers. In the face of the worst losses, the flag will remain. Never to be taken down, never to be surrendered.

**This was just an opinionated rambling, the facts may be different, but the perception is still the same**

Perhaps burning a bra that looked like an American flag, while it was on Asia. Now that would be something I could enjoy watching.


V/R
ID

[Asia]

**This was just an opinionated rambling, the facts may be different, but the perception is still the same**

Perhaps burning a bra that looked like an American flag, while it was on Asia. Now that would be something I could enjoy watching.

V/R
ID


Sir, we can only be opinionated if we have an opinion, I enjoy hearing what you and others have to say - every day is indeed a school day.

I'm a wee bit feared that you and Q are suggesting burning my bra while I'm wearing it though, so I've burned it after having removing it and have changed my photo AV so as to stop this scary idea from developing *breathes a sigh of relief*
Asia
xxx

[mkemse]

Simply put, whether you believe in it or not whether you support it or not, a couple of years back, the United States Supremem Court specificly ruled that burninig the Flag IS protected by the United State Constiution as "Freedom of Speech and Freedom Of Expression"
I have no personal opnion on this, but the fact remain to this day, whether you support this or adhore this, our Highest Court in the Nation says it is legal to burn it
But there are also many other law of our land that I neither support or do not support, but theruling of the Court shows & some of the rights the we as Americans have in a Free Society
Someone my say, if this is true, why then it is illegal to shout "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre" that should be freedom of speeech/expression as well, the reason that shouting "FIRE" in a theatre is illegal has nothing to do with what was said, the Court ruled that shouting "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre could and probably would result in a riot situation to clear the theatre, for this reason shouting it is ILLEGAL, not the words used but the where it was shouted, also the nice thing about the United States is that there are forums like this were all views can be expressed without worry or concern about being arrested for expressiing ones feelings

As the add goes

Buy a PC $850.00
Seeting it up $10.00
Using and Internet Service For surfing and email $29.99 a month
Busing a new USB cable for your printer $29.99
Liviing In The United States were we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH and EXPRESSION PRICELESS

[Dundee]

Yes. Forget flag burning, let us all just burn Asia's bra and keep our hands warm :)

[Warbaby1943]

Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.

I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?

Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!

The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.

The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.

The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.

The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.

The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."

The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.

The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.

The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.

The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.

The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."

After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.

There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.

Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."

MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.

FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.

IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

[Warbaby1943]

Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.

I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?

Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!

The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.

The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.

The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.

The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.

The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."

The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.

The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.

The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.

The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.

The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."

After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.

There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.

Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."

MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.

FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.

IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

[Timberwolf]

"Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought."

Because they fold flags real nice at military funerals? If you say so.

I'd be far more concerned about the motivations that left it required to fold yet another flag for yet another human being dead, than the knowedge of what folds # 6, 7, and 8 represent.

Considering 10 of our own soldiers have died inthe past week in Afghanistan, you won't be the only ones folding flags I'm afraid.

[Ozme52]

Careful WB. If you're going to be that assertive, get your facts right.

Our rights were originally declared as "inalienable" rights. Later, at the Constitutional Convention, the writers (many of whom were also our "founding fathers") very clearly avoided linking God and Country. That all came later... and was not their intention.

The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with the numerics of 1776 except by coincidence. The British Navy established 'gun salutes' long before we declared independence. The number of guns reflects the rank of the person being saluted.

The flag folding ceremony you quote is also referenced at http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm

They make the following comments about it: (red highlights are mine)


What follows is an unofficial, but popular script for folding the flag. It does not appear in the Flag Code and would appear to be in violation of military guidelines, in violation of the Establishment Clause. The Establishment Clause requires that expression not create the reasonable impression that the government is sponsoring, endorsing, or inhibiting religion generally, or favoring or disfavoring a particular religion. See discussion and references at the end of this page for more information. There are numerous variations to be found circulating online and in newsgroups and e-mails. We have not been successful in discovering its origin or authorship.

In fold 6, the Pledge is quoted with the words "under God," which were added to the Pledge in 1954.

...and yet, we've been folding the flag this way since long before 1954.

Lastly, since you went out of your way to capitalize your last three paragraphs, why do you feel you need to "yell" at us to make your point.

If you intend to yell, please try to at least get your facts straight.

[Warbaby1943]

Careful WB. If you're going to be that assertive, get your facts right.

Our rights were originally declared as "inalienable" rights. Later, at the Constitutional Convention, the writers (many of whom were also our "founding fathers") very clearly avoided linking God and Country. That all came later... and was not their intention.

The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with the numerics of 1776 except by coincidence. The British Navy established 'gun salutes' long before we declared independence. The number of guns reflects the rank of the person being saluted.

The flag folding ceremony you quote is also referenced at http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm

They make the following comments about it: (red highlights are mine)



...and yet, we've been folding the flag this way since long before 1954.

Lastly, since you went out of your way to capitalize your last three paragraphs, why do you feel you need to "yell" at us to make your point.

If you intend to yell, please try to at least get your facts straight.
Sorry, I just passed it along assuming. We all know what assuming does. Again, I'm apologize for any discrepancies even though I did not write.

I should have probably posted a disclaimer.

[Asia]

Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx

[bluebutterfly]

Well said Asia. Remembering those lost is more important and unfortunately there are too many we need to remember.






Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx

[Warbaby1943]

Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.

My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.

I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.

~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx
Not true, your thoughts are all very interesting. Don't sell yourself short.

[MasterRob{cali}]

First, I have to say Asia very good, I understand were you are coming from and your bother in law, I feel his pain, know his nightmares, All to the tune of Goverments (all not just the US or UK) Ideas wants and ego building.
Genreal McCarthur side it well "No one prays for peace more then the combat soldeir" then you have billy joel song goodnight siagon in it he sings true words
"Whos wrong or whos right dosent matter in the thick of a firefight"
I also like to say about flag burning, i really dont have any >> however if i didnt like it I would have to defend it as thats a true consitional right here in Amercia, its called the 1st admentment. I as a american dont have to like what anyone says or dose here, as this country was build on the blood and souls of our best, brightes, in so many far away places. So we have that right.
Once again Asia, keep up the peace fight if we had more like minded people in the Goverments in the world we would have to drape coffins or fold flags.

Thank You
Master Rob

[Lady Dena]

(Note, I am from the United States, so my comments will reflect that particular perspective)

The fact that the United States' flag is such an important symbol, and that so many are deeply offended by public displays of disrespect toward it, is all the more reason why it is vitally important that flag desicration remain protected. The framers of the Bill of Rights did not enact the First Amendment to protect the right of people to express popular viewpoints -- they enacted it to protect unpopular viewpoints. They enacted it to protect the rights of each particular person to express ideas that might offend people.

It is hard to believe that I'm not preaching to the chior here (perhaps I am). We are all fans of this particular website, or we wouldn't be here. Consider, however, the fact that many people find the content of this site immoral and deeply offensive. Suppose the government were to attempt to outlaw accessing this site for that reason (the offensive nature of BDSM). Everyone here would, I'd bet, be complaining that their "free speech" is being trampled upon.

The First Amendment is a two-edged sword. Not only does it ALLOW you to utter and listen to speech that might offend your next door neighbor, it also COMMANDS you to tollerate your next door neighbor's offensive speech. As many very patriotic people have pointed out, "freedom ain't free." Usually when people say that, they are talking about military service, but it means something even more fundimental than that. It means that if are really serious about Freedom of Speech, it is every America's patriotic duty to follow the command of the First Amendment and tollerate the most offensive speech you can possibly imagine.

Sorry for the rant -- the above is a pet peeve of mine.

[Ozme52]

Dena, if you've reviewed the thread, you'll know I'm singing tenor in your choir. LOL

Well put.

[riverwindsong]

Ok...here's my two cents' worth...As the wife of an American veteran who has lost more friends in combat over the 20+ years he served than he cares to count, as the aunt of a Marine who served in Iraq for three tours of duty, as a former military wife, and as a proud American citizen, I must say that I support my country and what our flag has symbolized over the years. When I see that flag disrespected, and our military insulted, yes it makes my blood boil.

And as for the First Amendment, and the freedom of speech, there are times when I just want to smack people for not realizing just who made it possible for them to be able to say whatever they want - especially the fundamentalist fanatics of all kinds who seem to get caught on the "my way is the only right way, and the rest of y'all are going to hell" track.

But then I think of the true meaning of freedom - what it means, and of the awesome responsibility that goes along with it in all of its various forms. And I am incredibly thankful that I do live in a country where we are able to speak our minds, where we are able to worship the gods we believe in, where we are able to live (for the most part) the lifestyles we choose.

That being said, I must also say that I disagree with many of the policies our country has in place around the world. I do not agree with war. I do not like fighting, for any reason. I am tired of the politicians who have made America into the world's watchdog. But I feel it is my duty to support those who are serving, to let them know that they are not forgotten.

I don't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes (somewhat) along these lines: "I may not agree with the things you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

So, forgive me for waffling on the subject. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Alex Bragi]

...

I don't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes (somewhat) along these lines: "I may not agree with the things you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

...

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

[riverwindsong]

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

Thank you! At least now I know who it was! :)

[mkemse]

I do not support the war, I DO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS and believe in our Consitution, no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy, but in any situation you have the good and bad, we have the luxury of the United Stes Contiution some people will agree with parts of it, some will disagree with parts of it and say so publcly which is our given right as US Citizen's, whether person agreee's or disagree with flag buring, the simply fact remains that the United Stae Suprmem Court rules that it is protected by the United State Contituation under freedom of speach and action
Altho I may agree or not agree with the ruling, it is one of the many freedoms we as American's enjoy in a free society, i can fully understand a famly member of family who has members fighting now or lost members fighting before to give us and preserve the rights we have
But I must aslo include that with these rights are rights and actions everyone is not going to agree with and what makes this nice is that in a Demoractic Sociaty that we live in we HAVE these rights, just like the rights on this forum to discuss these issues, we are not all going to agree on everything, the real world does not allow that, but we do have the right to discuss and disagree on issues without the fear of going to jail, this everyone will also agree on as beingture
In a free socierty you must give and take
I would rather be critized for say yes i support flag buring in a public forum if i did, and i repeat I neither spport it nor oppose flag burninig,but what is far more important to ME is to the have the right to even discuss the issue without fear of being arrested for doing so
Hope eveyone has a great day

[cariad]

...no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy,

Taking a deep breath before I say this, and not wishing to be in the slightest bit offensive. I admire many things about the US, but that is a sweeping statement.

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.

cariad

[mkemse]

Our Country is not perfect, nodbody ever said it was, health care is a HUGE issue here, but unlike other countries, our contry seems to be less interested in health care which is as you put it correct and very unfortunate, we are the Richest Nation on Earth, yet some of our own citizen's have to decide daily weekly or monthly, do i pay my rent, my electricity and buy food or do i buy my medication, a basic human right, but like i said we as a nation are not perfect and never will be, but at the same time we enjoy more things then others do
Nation Health Care In The US would be great, a god send, the reason we do not have it is politicains here worry more about their own skin and lobbiests then in the people they represent, which is why we have elections evey 2-4years depending on what office they seek
The lobbiest in this country are to strong and until the Goverment does what is fair National Health Care wil never exist
Both of our Parties are to beholden to special intrests as a result many things that need to be done are not
Social Security Recipients in this country do NOT recieve a living wage to live on, be they retired or disabled, we barely make it each month, I speak from experience being disabled I barely make it each month, i have $2.00
going into a new month if that, i can barely afford my medication but some how our country always has the money to go to war and and money to make and drop bombs on othe rnations go figure this out please
No i am far from pleased with my life style but I AM FREE to say so and can do so without fearing of going out and being arrested for critizing those who are responsible
Last year for the first time in 5 years Social Security reciepients recieved a 4% cost of living increaee in January as oppsed to 1.5 % we usualy get, but as luck would have it of the 4% i got, 60% went back for my Meidcare D card to buy medications which i I might add costs me more now then it did when i had a State program which the goverrment ended with Medicare D, I have gotten used to living like this, this choice is not mine but it is ONE of the few choice in a free society that are NOT mine, I can work where I want if I was physicaly able to work which I am not, I can live where I want, drive where I want visit who I want and when without asking permission of any one other then those I am visiting to make surethey want company

[Lady Dena]

Taking a deep breath before I say this, and not wishing to be in the slightest bit offensive. I admire many things about the US, but that is a sweeping statement.

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.
The above was a response to the statement "no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we [in the United States] enjoy." Your point is well taken -- there are serious problems with the US Health Care system.

I have never been to the UK, so perhaps there is a fundimental cultural difference between the way we look at certain things. Then again, perhaps it's just a difference between the way two individuals look at things. To most Americans, "Freedom / Liberty" and "Prosperity" are two very different concepts. The former refers to the absence of interference by the government, while the latter refers to your material well-being. If someone does not have access to the health care they need, then that person's problem is a lack of prosperity, not a lack of freedom.

I'm not belittling the problems of people who don't have access to health care. I am simply saying that when someone from the US boasts that we are a "free" country, that person is not necessarily boasting that we are prosperous. If you wish to critique the statement that no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy," then critique it in terms of government interference that people in the US must suffer, since that is the point that the poster was making.

- Lady Dena

[scabrat]

I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Voltaire, Real Name: François Marie Arouet, French philosopher (1694–1778)

Apparently

[mkemse]

Sorry if I took thr wrong exit on the right expressway
have a nice day all
:)

[cariad]

Breathes again, thank you for your considered replies mkemse and Lady Dena. I wish to take a bit of time before I critique the statement within those terms. Quite simply I do not have information to do so without some research.

I do take your points about personal/cultural differences in interpretation, and that is one of the joys of belonging to a community like this. I can see the difference between freedom/liberty and prosperity, although my perception is that without adequate prosperity to ensure a basic level of health and education, the freedoms and liberties which you mention are an irrelevant luxury.

cariad


p.s. I am aware that I am a moderator of this forum, so I have informed Rabbit1 of this discussion we are having, so someone is keeping an on me too!

[riverwindsong]

I would have to agree with you, Cariad. I see it all the time in my line of work, which is sadly pathetic, especially given all of the advances that our society as a whole has.

[Rabbit1]

I am and always will be a US Marine---I retired recently from the reserve ---having served my country more than 22 years on active duty and reserve duty. I have lived my life with honor and done what was asked of me by the government that the people elected. I lost brothers and friends in Vietnam and Family in Iraq.

I love my country and respect the flag, and it does disturb me to see it dishonored. But we need to stop second guessing ---stop pointing fingers. All of this is just meaningless attempts to get attention. And when we quit giving it the attention it does not deserve, then it will quit being an issue.

It is like naughty children, doing something they know is wrong just to get the parents attention. So you spank the child and never find out why they did it. Then the next time they want attention they may do it again.

If the elected representives would spend as much time and effort on keeping American people fed --housed ---health care ---education ---they would have no time for such little things as flag burning laws.

The Flag means different things to different people, Just like prayers in schools, The rebel flag in the southren courthouses, the teaching of evolution is school, and other such personal things that upset an individual.

to some people the flag is nothing but a pretty thing blowing in the breeze, and it will never be anything more. Why because we failed to teach them what it really is. A symbol of liberty and freedom, that marks and set this country apart from all others.

Yes we have problems, And maybe the flag burners are trying to draw attention to those problems. I do not think that is the right way of doing it, I on the other hand am active in trying to elect people from my state that will forget the little things and work for the people. That is the way to effect change in the government, not burning flags, not complaining to each other.

Get out there ---and get the idiots out of congress that are not serving the people. The ones that tell you what you want to hear during elections, but once elected fail to follow thru ---why do we keep electing these people.

That is why I made a comment early in this thread, because you know what, no matter what comments are made here---they will not change a thing

I am all for active change --you do not like something---get out and try to change it ---just like the stories on the front page-of this forum---I was so tired of seeing poor reviews by other authors ---that I started Writer's Block to teach new authors ----I do lead by example

So you hate flag burning ---lets do something about it ---lets find out why they are doing it. Lets teach our own children to respect the flag.

Think Flag burning is a non issue---great lets do something about it --lets vote those idiots out of congress that spent months of time and a lot of money trying to draft the amendment out and get some people with good old common sense in the office.

I would never burn the flag to get attention ---but a bon fire in some congressman's front yard might be in order to get their attention ---lol

[mkemse]

I agree with Rabbit1, let's get people into Washington that will deal with and solve the issues of Mental Health, Homlesness, Medical Insurance ect ect and let's worry less about less important issues let'sh ave our reprentatives in Washington servethe needs of the people and not their own needs
We have amid term election in Novmeber, vote your concioud but VOTE, if you do not vote you have right right to complain about ANYTHING
As the saying goes "If you are NOT part of the solution or part of the peoblem what the .... are you doing here
Simply put even if this is turce, vote or shut up!!! If you don't vote in November don't complain after words over who was elected, you had your chance

[ColinClout(c)]

So much I could say here, and most of it I want to chew over before I risk posting it. But one thing I would like to throw in if I may.

Anything I had to say about patriotism in the United States would have little value, as I have never lived there, so I can only think of it in terms of my own country, the United Kingdom (and even to call it that is controversial of course!) I am fairly left-of-centre when it comes to politics, although my faith means that I often find that I am not looking at political issues through the usual left-right perspective. However, I do find that as I grow older (not THAT old as yet, thank you very much) I get more and more attached to the UK. I do not believe that it is the best place on earth by any means, but it is certainly my favourite, because it is mine.

This means that I care about my country and the way it behaves. In turn, this means that I treasure the right to contest what our flag is made to stand for, because it represents me. I want the right to disagree with the things that are done in the name of the UK, and I can well imagine a situation in which the only way I was able graphically to disassociate myself from actions taken by my goverment would be to destroy the emblem of that government. To me it is a legitimate act of protest, and need not be a betrayal of one's own country. Those of us who love the places we live want to make them the best we can, and want them to act in the way that we consider to be the most responsible.

There is a continual battle for the meaning of our national symbols. In the UK, this often manifests itself in attempts by the far Right to take possesion of the Union Flag and in effect to associate it with racism, thus making it hard for us to use our national flag(s) without those overtones. Acts such as flag burning highlight the contest for what our respective countries stand for, and what they aim to achieve. That debate has to happen, and if the flags serve a useful symbolic (unifying) purpose in the first place, then burning them can be an equally valid and useful way of saying that the uniformity they appear to represent is illusory.

OK, anyone want to explain to me what the heck I just said?

CC

[fantassy]

Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.

cariad


Let me start by saying I believe the US definitely needs health care reform - to be sure the ability to get low-cost prescription drugs is a major problem; however, it is a myth that you can't be poor and get health care in the US - the US has many programs to help the poor get health care: medicaid, medicare, state programs, walk into an emergency room, county programs, a friend of mine who chose to retire early (thus not eligible for medicare), had 401(k) )thus not eligible for medicaid) was able to receive receive free treatment for colon cancer thru gov program. What is true is that you may not be able to get the BEST healthcare available in the US if you're poor; however, that is true of many people in those countries who have a national healthcare system - they often cannot get healthcare in their counties comparable to the healthcare the wealthiest Americans have access to. That just seems to be a fact of life - being wealthy gets you more better stuff.

In addition Cariad, the example you cited seemed to support the proposition that this friend, in fact, did get the necessary health care. She had the right to choose better health care rather than owning a home. Not a fun choice, but a choice freely made. However, the US also provides some protections about owning a home which makes me wonder why your friend lost her home unless the hospital made her pre-pay which seems unlikely. Legally, one can run up a ton of medical bills, fail to pay them, and then file bankruptcy to make the bills go away and still keep one's house and other "exempt" assets.

Rabbit1,

I agree in theory that working to elect good officials is the best way to acheive reform, but I have gotten cynical over the years of watching Americans vote for the "more likeable" and "better financed" candidates rather than the smarter or more self-less candidates. How does one get attention paid to one's ideas if you don't have financing? Write an intelligent letter to the editor and no one pays attention. Burn a flag and all the major networks show. Sad but true.

fantassy

[Rabbit1]

Let me start by saying I believe the US definitely needs health care reform - to be sure the ability to get low-cost prescription drugs is a major problem; however, it is a myth that you can't be poor and get health care in the US - the US has many programs to help the poor get health care: medicaid, medicare, state programs, walk into an emergency room, county programs, a friend of mine who chose to retire early (thus not eligible for medicare), had 401(k) )thus not eligible for medicaid) was able to receive receive free treatment for colon cancer thru gov program. What is true is that you may not be able to get the BEST healthcare available in the US if you're poor; however, that is true of many people in those countries who have a national healthcare system - they often cannot get healthcare in their counties comparable to the healthcare the wealthiest Americans have access to. That just seems to be a fact of life - being wealthy gets you more better stuff.

In addition Cariad, the example you cited seemed to support the proposition that this friend, in fact, did get the necessary health care. She had the right to choose better health care rather than owning a home. Not a fun choice, but a choice freely made. However, the US also provides some protections about owning a home which makes me wonder why your friend lost her home unless the hospital made her pre-pay which seems unlikely. Legally, one can run up a ton of medical bills, fail to pay them, and then file bankruptcy to make the bills go away and still keep one's house and other "exempt" assets.

Rabbit1,

I agree in theory that working to elect good officials is the best way to acheive reform, but I have gotten cynical over the years of watching Americans vote for the "more likeable" and "better financed" candidates rather than the smarter or more self-less candidates. How does one get attention paid to one's ideas if you don't have financing? Write an intelligent letter to the editor and no one pays attention. Burn a flag and all the major networks show. Sad but true.

fantassy



you are right about candidates getting attention ---but that is where we the people come in ---if enough of the complainers get out off their couch and start helping getting out the word about the right canidates then the money one spends is not so much an issue----and those same people can help raise money for the canidate they believe in ----you are right doing bad things get media atteniton ----you see militants in Iraq on TV---what you do not see is more than half are not from Iraq but from other countries there to stir things up and no let freedom in ---the main people of Iraq want this freedom --it is the other countries that do not want them to have it or it may spread to their country ---but you do not see that on TV or in the papers ---You just see what sells newspapers and gets rating ---I have family in Iraq and they believe in what is going on there ----I would rather believe them than the media

This should not even be a political issue ---congress voted on this ----for what ever reason ---now just because it is not going the way they thought it should ---everyone is backing off ---our troops did not ask to go ---they are serving their country ---as I and may other before me have----there is no way to win a political war----


But back to the point being cynical watching is a problem in it self---instead of watching ---why not get out there and do something----too many people watch and see things not go the right way instead of trying to steer it the right way ----yes I live in Florida the home of the recount---lol

when you see it not going the right way it is most likely too late ---and if you are busy trying to steer it the right way ---you will not have time to see it going wrong----in 66 days we have a mid term election here ----and as a rule it is the most under voted period in our system---get out and vote --pick up and take a friend with you----lend a ride to people who have transportation problems -----Talk about your canidate to others ----if you can help them raise money

[SheepishJaina]

I personally have nothing against burning the flag. If that's the way you want to protest, that is your right to. Heck if you wanted to set yourself on fire in protest, thats fine by me. We have the right to express how we feel. However I would personally never do such a thing, with the exception of retiring an old flag.

The fact that the government has taken the time to argue and debate on this matter makes me sick. There are thousands of other pressing issues in the country, and they spend their time on.. flag burning of all things?

[_ID_]

There are thousands of other pressing issues in the country, and they spend their time on.. flag burning of all things?
Flag burning gets the attention it does, because to address flag burning, they don't need to reform a current infrastructure, they don't need to fund research to make it happen, they get to just talk about a highly charged issue, and look good when they say "I agree, its not a good thing..... blah blah blah." Droning on about that issue makes it look as though they care about doing something while in office.

I agree with Rabbit, getting out and highlighting the issues at hand, that is the best way to motivate people for change.

The #1 roadblock that will be encounted when making fundemental change in any of our government supported systems, e.g. education, heath care, is tax reform.

V/R
ID