How Much Should Grammar And Spelling Weight With A Review?

[Widget]

How willing are you to overlook grammar and spelling errors if the basic plot is good and the story is otherwise engaging?

I am just curious. Personally I read very fast so I can grasp the meaning and context of a paragraph without letting minor errors ruin the enjoyment of a story for me. Bigger more glaring errors though are more difficult for me to over look though as it ruins the flow of the story.

[chattel69]

The minor stuff is easy to over look but when it comes to trying to read through the story it loses it's appeal. Formating of the story is another problem I have, font size, color, it all leads to ease in reading.

I'm not the best at grammar so I try and give people a break but if you know you have an issue, ask for help. There a lot of friendly and helpful people here who I am sure wouldn't give it a second thought to proof a story.

[Timberwolf]

Small grammar errors, like for example confusing their there and they're, I don't mind that. I make my fair share myself. Just the other day on another forum I used the word "paordy" when I meant to use "parity" just because they are spelled similarly. If it's kept under check that's not a problem, everyone makes an error now and again. The one that trips me up a lot personally is when to use "its" or "it's".

If the sentence structure is genuinely bad (meaning it looks like a seventh grade english class project), or if there are a lot of spelling errors all over, I won't read it.

[maddie]

Poor formatting drives me bonkers. Spelling and grammar errors tend to jump out at me, so if there's a lot of them, I often won't finish a story, because they bug me too much. Even the best of writers miss things now and then, though, and I try to focus more on the story than the grammar and spelling.

I won't even bother reading a poorly formatted story.

[pttwyn]

I have to agree with Maddie, I can't finish a really poorly done story.:30:
It drives me off the deep end too. I use MSWord with spell and grammar check. So it's not hard to do.:rolleyes:
Lately I've started to like these little smiley face things and probably really overuse them. :32: :28: :30:
Sorry I couldn't resist.
Pttwyn

[Widget]

Oh lord don't get me started on formatting. I won't finish a story that is done badly either. Someone submitted one with the text on a green back ground. It was brutal. I won't even read a web page with bad formatting nevermind a story.

[Tojo]

I would have to admit poor spelling & grammar is one of my pet hayts. :)

Having left school at 15, I'm hardly well educated, yet I keep a dictionary next to me & a Thesauras. I also use Word to write anything more than half a page. Actually that was the reason I bought a PC- even more so than porn.

To me it's sheer laziness to not check your spelling. I won't stand for it with my girls, that's for sure.

A WP is a wonderful wonderful thing.

If someone is from a non English speaking country, yes I can overlook it. Otherwise it usually detracts from anything I read, even posts on a forum.

Too many mistakes & I stop reading. As for formatting- a page of solid text with no paragraph breaks & I have to copy & format to read it!

Even a post that goes on without spaces or paragraphs I usually get lost half way through or just don't bother.

Spelling, grammar & formatting? Don't get me started!! :32:

[Rabbit1]

Well here is my two cents worth again ----Grammer and formatting is important---but if you read the in the authors forum how stories are published here you will see that some of the formatting is beyond the authors control ---especially a new author ----so it is like this before I really come down on a author ---I look at how many stories he or she has writen---

Hey guys cut a new author a break ---I have seen some review just come down so hard on new authors ---if you do constructive critism that is fine like hey your story was good but the spelling errors distracted from it ----then the author learns from it and is not put off or gives up ---

Next I have seen where english was not the authors first language ---and they were jumped on for grammar errors---spelling----and if they wrote the story in their language they get it for not posting in english ---those authors can not win---


I try first to look at the story ---does it flow ---am I intrerested it the subject and does it hold my intrest----That is the most important part of any story ----Grammar and formatting can be fixed ---a poor story can not

now lets take it like it really is ---this is a free site ---the stories are free ---the authors work for free----if you really want literary masterpieces go to your local library or to one of the pay sites where authors get paid for their work ---if you pay for a story and it is full of grammar and format errors ---Then Bitch you head off ---other wise you should give the poor author a break ---not all of us are english teachers --and most people read the stories to get off anyway ----so grammar and format is not that important ---lol

Yes we have some super authors ---their grammar is perfect and so is their formatting ---but if you look most have posted a few stories too---People are not born to write they have to learn ----I see a lot of story updates come thru correcting spelling and grammar errors ----and I see alot of new authors that never submit another story ---they got put off by such harsh reviewes

Can you read the story ---do you understand what the author is trying to say ---is it interesting ---those are the main points in my reviews of a new author ---and experienced author ---I do look at a little harder ---I do expect more from them

I have read some of the great litary Authors early works ----I am talking about well known authors ---and quite frankly some of it does not look any better than the new authors we have here

and to be truthful some of the good authors today would be lost without spellcheck and a good proof reader --- My publisher sends my work back to me sometimes with big red circles ---and suggestions in the margins ---in the novels I have submitted for publishing ----sometime it take two or three submissions before I get one published ---but by the time the readers see it --it is damn near perfect ---what you are seeing here is authors work in the raw

[Aussiegirl1]

I have to say that I don't mind a few errors and if the story holds my interest, I can overlook them. I know as an author I try hard to find any errors in my work, but even with spellcheck, there are some you just don't see.

I agree with Rabbit about new authors. I will check how many stories someone has done before I decide how to review a story. I was lucky that though my early stories had errors that I hate to think about now, I still got positive and helpful reviews, with some suggestions on how to improve. This certainly gave me the encouragement to go on.

[H Dean]

I tend to agree with Aussiegirl, over all. A few mistakes are bound to be part of a story. So long as they aren't overly common and don't hinder the flow of a story it will barely register with my rating score. It will, however, be mentioned in my review so as to make the author aware of their mistakes.

On the other hand, if the mistakes cause the story to flow poorly it can severely hamper my rating and review of a story. Presentation is as important as the ideas being expressed. A great story can be ruined by poor flow due to grammatical and spelling miscues.

What really gets me is when a story has been gone over with a spell check routine, while not being edited. This is usually pretty obvious since it means incorrect words will be used with a fair frequency. This is something I have no tolerance for. It stinks of laziness and a complete lack of respect for the art of writing, their own story and the reader. If the author does not respect these things enough to edit their story properly then they get no respect from me and I will review their story appropriately.

But then, I am sort of a prick.

[Rabbit1]

I tend to agree with Aussiegirl, over all. A few mistakes are bound to be part of a story. So long as they aren't overly common and don't hinder the flow of a story it will barely register with my rating score. It will, however, be mentioned in my review so as to make the author aware of their mistakes.

On the other hand, if the mistakes cause the story to flow poorly it can severely hamper my rating and review of a story. Presentation is as important as the ideas being expressed. A great story can be ruined by poor flow due to grammatical and spelling miscues.

What really gets me is when a story has been gone over with a spell check routine, while not being edited. This is usually pretty obvious since it means incorrect words will be used with a fair frequency. This is something I have no tolerance for. It stinks of laziness and a complete lack of respect for the art of writing, their own story and the reader. If the author does not respect these things enough to edit their story properly then they get no respect from me and I will review their story appropriately.

But then, I am sort of a prick.


lol that is one of my nick names too ---but I tend to point out the errors and try to encourage the author to fix them instead of discourage him ----Of course that is why I took the time to start a little training course for new writers ----and any of our older authors who can spare some time are welcome to help out ----there ---there is plenty of intrest in learning --but so far not much intrest in instructing

[Eryn]

Greetings. Though I'm relatively new to the forum I hope y'all won't mind if I put in a cent or two. I do a bit of editing and ghost writing on the side and can say from sharp lessons learned that mispellings and poor grammer are *never* acceptable in a finished product. If a story is put up for review then the author is essentially saying, "Okay, I'm done. This is the best it can be."

I've found that all too often there's a rush to post/publish/present and that adequate editing and revision have not taken place. The best advice I can offer is to cool your jets and read over your work another hundred times. Read it aloud, read it backwards, have someone else read it to you ... do whatever it takes to at least make sure your copy is functionally correct. Content may be subjective but proper spelling and grammer are not.

That being said, it should also be noted that we all make mistakes, typos and use the wrong word in the wrong place at times. All you can do is take the hit and try harder next time.

[aree]

Another set of eyes can be very valuable. I do a fair bit of writing when the mood strikes me and I know there have been times that I have passed over a mistake because my eyes just don't see it. Eryn will catch it quickly and point it out, which sometimes makes me grumpy, but he knows his stuff.
:)

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

Rabbit1 quote
now lets take it like it really is ---this is a free site ---the stories are free ---the authors work for free----if you really want literary masterpieces go to your local library or to one of the pay sites where authors get paid for their work ---if you pay for a story and it is full of grammar and format errors ---Then Bitch you head off ---other wise you should give the poor author a break ---not all of us are english teachers --and most people read the stories to get off anyway ----so grammar and format is not that important ---lol


Eryn Quote
I've found that all too often there's a rush to post/publish/present and that adequate editing and revision have not taken place.

Let’s be realistic here, these are free stories. I keep wondering just how much some people expect for free… My vanilla work is edited, and edited but like I’ve said before, isn’t it expecting a bit much to have a perfect work submitted for free?
Wouldn’t that be sent to a publisher of erotica or porn for money?

I have to say I agree with Rabbit1 if I worried so much about grammar here I wouldn’t have published. I’m very glad I published before I realized grammar was going to be an issue. I use my spellchecker, but not my editor. No way am I handing this stuff to someone and saying, “Ummhumm could you ignore the content and go over this one so I can post it for free on a porn site?” LOL

I think if it’s bad, don’t read it, if you like it, tell the author, if the grammar drives you nuts just move on.

(Thanks Maddie for volunteering to edit my big one.) If it just drives you nuts edit it and send it to the author. They will probably kiss your feet in gratitude.

Ok stepping off my soap box and getting back on my knees where I prefer to be.

[aree]

In Eryn's defense, he does editing for a living and it's his nature to find mistakes. We've also done collaborative writing together for years, as well as with other people, so grammar and spelling errors kinda jump out at us after working with anal, type A perfectionists! :D
I don't think anyone here said there was an "issue" about grammar and spelling, but more what their preferences were. This doesn't seem like a judgemental group but we *are* having a discussion and opinions are bound to vary. I can look past the mistakes and get to the meat of a story, but as some mentioned, it can be difficult to read and sometimes interests wane.
From a different perspective, maybe some of the Dom/mes here would like their subbie's writing to be the best it can be and will point out the errors as a learning experience for their little one.
Also, I am not one of those that read the stories to "get off." LOL. I really am looking for a bit of literary substance since my home library is full and has been read several times already!

[Tojo]

Well OK- let's look at it from my point of view, as an occasional writer.

I write a story & post it for the world to see- I don't wish to hear a lot of flowery crap about how wonderful the story is, if it just isn't.

If it sucks, I want to know. If I have poor grammar or spelling I also want to know- otherwise why have reviews?

Yes I can see the logic in encouraging new authors & do my damndest to say encouraging things- but ultimately what am I to do if a story is total rubbish IMO? I don't want a story to be perfect, but there are limits.

I guess I'm a bit of a prick too...

Tojo

[aree]

I guess I'm a bit of a prick too...

No, you're not.
:rose:

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

I don't think anyone here said there was an "issue" about grammar and spelling, but more what their preferences were.

Smiles didn't mean issues in this thread. I meant that I didn't realize grammer would be such an issue in submitting a novel length story.

If my work is crap, sure I Don't want to know.:eek: If I was a new author and someone told me my work was crap I'd never submit again.

Your work is like your baby and who wants to be told that that they have an ugly baby. If you like a story tell them if not just move on.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm not submitting to have brutal words thrust on me. I'm submitting to get a thrill and to give a thrill.

My word I must be getting comfortable here to speak this way :icon176: Kisses to you all as I jump off my soapbox again.

[aree]

Your work is like your baby and who wants to be told that that they have an ugly baby.

I sure hear that! I have a really hard time taking any criticism about my writing, even if I know it's for the better. Sometimes I won't share with Eryn because of it.

[Widget]

Personally I would want constructive feedback for my writing as I want to be able to do the best job I can and develop as far as I can. Even if all I ever did was publish to a free site such as this I would still want to improve on each and every story I submitted and feedback is what I would need to do it.

I see some reviewers do some very harsh reviews on authors and sometimes it seems to me that while they are using the grammar and spelling as the reason for a bad review it is really the content of the story they hate. When I think about a review I try to be objective and give the kind of feedback I would want to receive to become better.

I have seen some authors ask for the type of reviews they wish to receive, critical, all comments welcome or please be gentle with my baby. Haha perhaps this is something that can be incorporated into the submission process so that reviewers have a direction in which to go when they are doing one for a story.

[Eryn]

"I have seen some authors ask for the type of reviews they wish to receive, critical, all comments welcome or please be gentle with my baby. Haha perhaps this is something that can be incorporated into the submission process so that reviewers have a direction in which to go when they are doing one for a story."

I think that's actually a very good idea -- if one wants to be reviewed then ask for the type of feedback that one would like to receive. One has to bear in mind though that different people (potential reviewers) like different things much as different authors write in different styles. Thus any review or critique is going to be colored by the reviewers' preferences ... with the possible exception being grammar, spelling and formatting, lol. (This is one reason formatting should be standardized and that spelling and grammar be eliminated as any possible issue so that only the content is subject to comment.)

A few years back I wrote a 19 part story (serial I guess it was/is) which combined the elements of witchcraft and bdsm. I've never posted the whole story for various reasons but what I did do with those I've shared it with was to let them read a part at a time and then ask what they thought of certain things about it. Things like: What did you think of this character? How did you like that scene? How did you feel when you read such and such? Basically what I was trying to do was to find out how closely they saw or felt what it was that I'd intended to be seen or felt from what and/or how I'd written said part.

What I discovered is that the more specific you are in your questions the better the feedback. Superlatives tell you nothing substantial. "It was wonderful, great. Loved it." Nor do negatives. "I hated it, it sucked." However, when you get something like, "Yeah, I really got a charge when the twins changed clothes in the kitchen without him knowing. " Or, "What exactly was it he did with the midget chick?" It's then you've got something to work with.

Critiques and reviews can be wonderful things if it helps you improve something you want to improve but not all stories are written and presented with that in mind. Perhaps there should be a category of, "This story is for fun -- no review necessary."

[H Dean]

I guess I'm a bit of a prick too...

No, you're not.
:rose:You know you are screwed when they start thinking of you as a nice guy.

[katie_21]

I guess I'm a bit of a prick too...

Tojo


Yes you are lol

Honestly I don't really pay attention to grammar and spelling.

[Tojo]

I guess I'm a bit of a prick too...

No, you're not.
:rose:


Oh now that's sweet. :yeah:

Thanks aree.


Yes you are lol

Thanks to you too missy. :wave:

Sorry SBBE....My post came across a bit harsher than intended.
This reviewing thing is very tricky- Ruby's post helped clarify it a little for me.
I'm a bit cheesed off, as I haven't been inspired to write for a while now. There's a beautiful girl lying on a leather covered bench in a story right now. She's been there for months, going crazy with lust waiting for me to get back there....


Tojo

[Tojo]

You know you are screwed when they start thinking of you as a nice guy.


Oh I was screwed a long time ago. :rolleyes:


Tojo

[katie_21]

Oh now that's sweet. :yeah:

Thanks aree.



Thanks to you too missy. :wave:

Sorry SBBE....My post came across a bit harsher than intended.
This reviewing thing is very tricky- Ruby's post helped clarify it a little for me.
I'm a bit cheesed off, as I haven't been inspired to write for a while now. There's a beautiful girl lying on a leather covered bench in a story right now. She's been there for months, going crazy with lust waiting for me to get back there....


Tojo


Oh now I'm depressed, thanks a lot

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

Giggle, no offense taken. I just love the way every topic here is treated fairly and everyone is allowed to say what they feel. Even if that means H Dean has to be allowed to post too. :icon176:

[H Dean]

Giggle, no offense taken. I just love the way every topic here is treated fairly and everyone is allowed to say what they feel. Even if that means H Dean has to be allowed to post too. :icon176:
You better be nice to me or I will be really mean and stuff!:30:

[Rabbit1]

Not long after I took over the publishing of stories here I was contacted by email by a long time author ----who complained about the quality of the stories now being published ---covering up his fine work ---

He also complained that I was publishing stories too often ---so his work did not get the number of hits that it used to when publishing was done on a hit or miss basis

It then occurred to me that maybe his stories were not so great ---maybe they got a lot of hits because there was little choice of new things to read ---that if his work was truely great that it would be a shinning expample of how to write for the other new authors.

Then I came up with the Idea for the Writer's Block forum ---instead of complaining about the new authors and their stories why not try to guide them in the right direction ---Now I am going to tell you I read some of this authors stories and they are good ----so I offered this author a chance to change the way new stories are writen by giving me a hand in this new instructional forum----guess what ---this author does not have time for that --only has time to complain ----Like a lot of our "experienced" authors they would rather give a flaming bad review then take the time to offer guidance to the newbies----

So I have challenged our great authors ---to give alittle back ---to volunteer a little of their time to help guide new authors ---if you are interested contact me ---My little instructional program is not perfect ---and I could use some imput from others ---but it is better than nothing

[MsUther]

I found that authours spoiled reaction to be hilarious!

[her_Joe]

I've read this whole thread and guess I'm going to be in a minority here. I don't take exception when a post is written with errors, but I really get turned off when I read a story and find grammar/spelling/format mistakes that are of the kind to interrupt the flow of the tale.

I don't mean split infinitives and most dangling modifiers. I'm talking about fragments, a confusion between "then" and "than," faulty parallelism ... stuff that makes nonsense of an idea.

This isn't because I'm a snob. It's because I'm a writer and I take what I do seriously. I edit and revise and edit again whether I'm paid for the words or not. I check spelling and punctuation because I respect my reader and am flattered s/he would spend their time on my stuff. I want to make their time enjoyable and I want them to respect me and what I've written.

There are many ways to destroy credibility with the reader. One of the easiest is mechanical sloppiness. One of the easiest to avoid is mechanical sloppiness.

I have one chance to "sell" my words and ideas to the reader ... and I wouldn't show up on a sales call with my fly unzipped or in a dirty shirt. That kind of carelessness tells the "buyer" that I don't respect them. I want to flatter the reader so s/he knows that I care what s/he thinks and how s/he responds. So I check my spelling. I check my grammar. I check the formatting.

That doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes. Many slip by. But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time. I can catch them by reading paragraphs out of sequence. And I can catch them by sending them to my editor, a patient woman who goes ballistic when I do something stupid to disrupt my characters or logic. I edit hers for her, and she does mine for me.

It's the least I can do. If I only have time to do a quick draft and don't like it well enough to edit it, or don't have the time to edit it at the moment, then it goes in the files of stuff to be revised. I don't inflict it on a poor reader whose only sin has been to trust that I might have something mildly entertaining to offer.

Rabbit's pleas for editors is important. All writers, beginning or advanced or professional, need editors ... people who read and expect excellence. Those who are willing need to be taught new ways and have their errors highlighted. I know when I submit for the first time to the Library story boards I'll be grateful (though aggravated with myself) to have mistakes pointed out.

Many here have been willing to encourage new writers to keep with it and to show their efforts. I'll join in. It's important to try out the best you can do -- this is a great venue to get feedback in harmless ways. But you can make sure that people focus on your story, rather than on your mechanics, by taking care of it before you submit.

hJ

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

her_Joe I have one chance to "sell" my words and ideas to the reader ... and I wouldn't show up on a sales call with my fly unzipped or in a dirty shirt. That kind of carelessness tells the "buyer" that I don't respect them. I want to flatter the reader so s/he knows that I care what s/he thinks and how s/he responds. So I check my spelling. I check my grammar. I check the formatting.

That doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes. Many slip by. But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time. I can catch them by reading paragraphs out of sequence. And I can catch them by sending them to my editor, a patient woman who goes ballistic when I do something stupid to disrupt my characters or logic. I edit hers for her, and she does mine for me.

I guess I don't actually see myself selling my work here. I was chatting with H Dean the other day, (we know what side of this issue he is on.) I realized my question for the reader is not was it correct grammatically, it's did you get a thrill, did you cum?

Now my vanilla work is something totally different.

I just don’t find myself able to give the time to my erotica that I would to my vanilla work. I’m giving it away for free. Is it really realistic to expect me to find an editor for something I will never admit to writing? Something I will never be paid for?

When I get a free gift I expect a string attached, the string for reading free erotica might just be imperfect work.

[Ruby]

How willing are you to overlook grammar and spelling errors if the basic plot is good and the story is otherwise engaging?



Hmmmm... ratings are all about personal perception.
And yet, we do have tools to use to help us along the way.

The "numbers" associated with a rating are very easy to use. Yes, they are subjective and based on the opinion of the reader. I also believe they are important.

If the plot is good, the story is engaging and it isn't riddled with an error every paragraph, but has a fair amount of errors, then I might give it a 7. If the errors are a distraction, then I'll give it a lower number and suggest an editing refresh.

If an author has many common mistakes - and we all have our bad habits - then I might send a private note with some suggestions to make the story easier to read and enjoy.

There is nothing wrong with being a stickler for grammar and spelling, free site or not. That's why we have a rating system. However, there is something wrong with attacking an author versus making suggestions or offering to re-rate the story once it's refreshed.

I not want read stories writ bad and hard to figur out -
with sentences like that one.

Nor do I want to read stories that use text message type of spelling and grammar. That's a huge distraction.

I do want to read well written stories and encourage authors to do the best they can. Some of the best erotic stories I've ever read have been on this site. Those authors may not ever choose to be published, yet I'm so glad they took the time to write and share their work.

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

I not want read stories writ bad and hard to figur out -
with sentences like that one.
Ruby
I love it. Smiles

[Ruby]

Ruby
I love it. Smiles

Ty

I mean, "Thank you."
:rose:

[H Dean]

I guess I don't actually see myself selling my work here. I was chatting with H Dean the other day, (we know what side of this issue he is on.) I realized my question for the reader is not was it correct grammatically, it's did you get a thrill, did you cum?.And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?

That's the stuff that bugs me. If the errors make me lose the mood it ain't good. That sort of thing can only come from laziness and I cannot respect that or offer encouragement, unless it is clearly due to the author writing in a language foreign to them.

[Ruby]

Good point, H Dean,

I no get thrill when writ is distrakting from story.

Instead of coming, it gets me going, to another story, for satisfaction.

Her_Joe,

I understand your viewpoint.

Selling the reader and keeping them coming back for more is part of the thrill for me. I want my readers to be happy. If I'm writing "print and vibe" or "print and read with one hand material", then I hope its better than good for them.

Ruby

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?
.

I so hate it when he's right :icon176: but I'm still not asking Mom to edit my porn. :)

I really can see the point and on my smaller works have had no complaints that I can remember. I love the idea from her_Joe

But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time.
I'm going to try that on the vanilla stuff first.
So if you read my stuff and the grammar drives you nuts forgive me. Maddie is editing it for me piece by piece and I'll post it when she's done. (Thanks again Maddie)

[Aussiegirl1]

And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?

That's the stuff that bugs me. If the errors make me lose the mood it ain't good. That sort of thing can only come from laziness and I cannot respect that or offer encouragement, unless it is clearly due to the author writing in a language foreign to them.

I too have to agree with this, especially as I am working on a story with H Dean at the moment! I know it will be a very well edited story.

Aussiegirl

[maddie]

I am delighted to be of service, Sbbe! And I'm sorry I've been so slow with your story. Life has a way of getting in the way of pleasure sometimes.

I do enjoy editing and proofreading. Once things settle down a bit, I might just volunteer to do more.

[Timberwolf]

To expect capital letters at the start of sentences, decent punctuation, and some grasp of paragraph stucture is all fine, and indeed should be demanded. These are basic grammatical rules that anyone trying to write should have a solid grasp of. Obvious spelling errors should also be caught easily, there isn't a decent word processor in the world that doesn't have a spell checker.

But c'mon, to get anal over a misuse of they're their or there on a free story site is just plain silly. It's nice when people always get it right, but slip ups are going to happen. Professional authors make use of profesiional editors for a reason. To expect that level of commitment from people who are writing for nothing in their spare time, on a site that's first goal is to get you horny and second goal is to tell a decent story (let's be frank, that *is* what the vast majority of the writing in the library is about, for better or worse) is almost off the charts funny to me.

[her_Joe]

Thanks, sbbe. I think you and I, and H. Dean, and Ruby, and Aussiegirl are pretty much in agreement actually. But what really pleases me is to see so many folk are actually willing to spend some passion on the issue.

I understand that most of us who write for pay (as often as possible, right? lol) spend extra effort to make certain that everything we submit is "just so" because a paycheck might be in the offing ... but writers who read and post to a thread like this one also have standards. And that doesn't mean necessarily stuffy.

I've kept a sentence as an extreme example of what offends me from a story I once tried to read (not here!) that said: "After I camd in her fac i still wanted fuckd her." (I read a few more sentences to see if it was an inept try at dialect. It wasn't.)

It is my opinion that, while someone is free to torture the language like that in the privacy of their own home, the exhibitionism of semi-literate drivel should result in the revocation of their poetic license and death by computer virus.

hJ

[Timberwolf]

"After I camd in her fac i still wanted fuckd her."

Now that stuff, I won't read. Or try to read. English deserves better.

[her_Joe]

But c'mon, to get anal over a misuse of they're their or there on a free story site is just plain silly. It's nice when people always get it right, but slip ups are going to happen. Professional authors make use of profesiional editors for a reason. To expect that level of commitment from people who are writing for nothing in their spare time, on a site that's first goal is to get you horny and second goal is to tell a decent story (let's be frank, that *is* what the vast majority of the writing in the library is about, for better or worse) is almost off the charts funny to me.

Sorry, Timberwolf. Your post slipped in while I was writing my last -- I certainly agree with you in principle ... it's not about minor errors, is it? Yet, I could easily disagree with your example ... I would notice a screw up in homonyms like their/they're/there (though I readily admit many folk wouldn't), or than/then, or to/two/too, and lots of other examples.

At the same time, I surely wouldn't lower my appreciation (or scoring) of a story just because the author misses an occasional word or two.

The question here has become:

if you want the reader aroused, if you want them to cum while they read your very horny porn, then do you really want them to be distracted by a slip up you can easily catch?

Another suggestion then, since sbbe liked the one about reading backwards -- if you know you typically goof up a specific homonym or usage, it doesn't take very long, does it, to run a search/replace for the word and decide if you've used it correctly? (I have to do that for several words I can never recall how to spell -- "achievement" is one, "judgment" is another -- did I get them right? lol)

The point is, if you write a lot, you know your weak spots ... not hard nor time-consuming to look for them.

hJ

[Timberwolf]

"The point is, if you write a lot, you know your weak spots ... not hard nor time-consuming to look for them. "

I agree with this actually, which is why I try and avoid using its or it's, and insted just go with "it is", in my case that's one of my personal trip-ups I try and avoid.

If you know you've got a problem, try and work around it. Makes sense, though it can take time for it to dawn on you.

The principle of the thing is good. Or is that the principal...

[His Slut]

Sorry if I'm out of line, but I just HAVE to put in my two cents...

I am a bit OCD when it comes to spelling, language and grammar. Yes, the stories are free, but I just cannot stand to read anything that has grammatical errors...it drives me insane! Oh, and don't MOST word processing programs have spell check?

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

Sorry if I'm out of line, but I just HAVE to put in my two cents...

I am a bit OCD when it comes to spelling, language and grammar. Yes, the stories are free, but I just cannot stand to read anything that has grammatical errors...it drives me insane! Oh, and don't MOST word processing programs have spell check?

But they don't do grammar? That takes experience and learning that some of us didn't get in the loverly public school systems.
Sorry, couldn't help it. Damn that soap box just calls to me.

[His Slut]

But they don't do grammar? That takes experience and learning that some of us didn't get in the loverly public school systems.
Sorry, couldn't help it. Damn that soap box just calls to me.

Again, forgive me if I'm out of line, but mine does...:rolleyes:

[maddie]

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

[His Slut]

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

Way to mess with the newb, shoe-girl. You can't possibly know how badly it hurt me to read that...*whimper*

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

Love it Maddie! :wave: I've gone back over manuscripts and caught these type of errors with one of my favorite vanilla editing tools. Is having it read back to my by my computer. You do have to be careful not to let the monotone voice lull you to sleep, but I find I can catch those types of errors with it.

[Timberwolf]

Most editions of Microsoft Word have a grammar check as well as a spell check. However quite frankly in my experience, the grammar check is an unreliable and near-useless piece of garbage (at least half the time actually making your sentences *less* correct than they were, or changing the meaning entirely), and I've long since turned it off semi-permanently.

[Dick the Slaver]

The newer version of Microsoft Word have a better grammar program. Also if you go into options, then spelling & grammar, grammar settings; you can adjust the grammar settings to your liking. Don't forget that word is a business program.

[Widget]

its still better to use word or another program to do spell checks and grammar checks than not to use anything at all. However nothing replaces careful reading and editing and an objective eye of a friend willing to do it is invaluable.

I still remember being in a hurry and using the spell checker on a document and I changed what should have read "Message from the Director" to "Massage from the Director" in it. Fortunately it got caught before being printed and it became a bit of a running joke for awhile. hehe

[His Slut]

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...

[Dick the Slaver]

I agree any spell check and grammar is better than nothing. The program recongnizes the word as correct. It does not mean that it is the correct one to use

[Widget]

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...

HAHAHA i do hope everyone had a sense of humor too funny.

[Dick the Slaver]

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...
I hope that it was not the reason why you left the business.

[Rabbit1]

Well I am happy to say that three of our better writers contacted me about Writer's block --One could not commit the time ----one is thinking about it and I am proud to say Aussiegirl ---is now one of the instructors ----

[cariad]

Writing as someone who is not involved with the writers section of forums, other than the odd post in Slothlands I would like to add my penny's worth to this debate.

I was fortunate enough to receive formal teaching in English grammar whilst at school, although I will willing acknowledge the evidence of that is sometimes somewhat lacking. With that background I find that incorrect grammar does at times niggle me, and sometimes make me smile when it changes the meaning of a phrase or sentence.

Story writing is surely a creative process, words and grammar used, and indeed sometimes deliberately miss-used to create an imaginary reality in the reader’s mind. Without this creative process there would be nothing, other than perhaps in the case of stories published on this site, a how-to manual on sexual practices.

If the author also happens to have the skills to check his or her own work, either using a word processor or raw brain power, that is perfect. But where that is not the case, why not try and pair up those with creative writing skills and those with analytical proof reading skills to form a perfect partnership.

Regardless of the author’s experience at the creative side of the process, please do not de-motivate them by criticism of their grammar or spelling. Don’t present them with the problem, but with a suggested solution.

Formatting; well that is another skill again. Something I care passionately about, and like Tojo, I will also reformat a poorly formatted, but good article before reading it. But again, please do not expect a good writer to also be good at formatting. When it comes to font and background colours, this is often a personal preference, and can easily be changed.

One of the most commented on recently posted non-erotic poems, Hero – Zero, was posted by Master Rob. That poem, which was created in his heart, was gently edited by a friend before being made public. Those who know him well know that Rob types a unique version of English known as Robesse. If he had let this prevent him from posting those of us who have read his poem would be the poorer in spirit and wisdom.

cariad

(Post checked and approved by MS Word)

[His Slut]

HAHAHA i do hope everyone had a sense of humor too funny.

Luckily, I had built a great rapport with my customers and yes, they all DID think it was hilarious...

You can be sure I never made that mistake again!

[His Slut]

I hope that it was not the reason why you left the business.

Naw...still in the industry, just not there anymore.

[maddie]

Way to mess with the newb, shoe-girl. You can't possibly know how badly it hurt me to read that...*whimper*

Awwww.... I assure you my intentions are (almost) always honorable.

Determining when they aren't is left as an exercise to the reader. However, I am always nice to newbies. :)

[His Slut]

Awwww.... I assure you my intentions are (almost) always honorable.

Determining when they aren't is left as an exercise to the reader. However, I am always nice to newbies. :)

:blurp_ani :blurp_ani :blurp_ani :blurp_ani

[H Dean]

Well I am happy to say that three of our better writers contacted me about Writer's block --One could not commit the time ----one is thinking about it and I am proud to say Aussiegirl ---is now one of the instructors ----There goes the neighborhood!

[Aussiegirl1]

There goes the neighborhood!

Thanks H Dean, I would be insulted...... if I didn't know you better.:)

[H Dean]

Thanks H Dean, I would be insulted...... if I didn't know you better.:)
I never claimed not to be a bit rotten.

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

I never claimed not to be a bit rotten.

Aussie girl that must have been in the fine print. Did you read it? I didn't.

[H Dean]

Aussie girl that must have been in the fine print. Did you read it? I didn't.Don't get wise, black and blue eyes!

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

Don't get wise, black and blue eyes!
Sends chaste kisses toward the fine print man.

[Aussiegirl1]

I never claimed not to be a bit rotten.

That is true, but luckily for me, there is a lot of sweetness there too!

[Aussiegirl1]

Aussie girl that must have been in the fine print. Did you read it? I didn't.

No, must have missed that bit. Who knows what else could be hidden in that fine print! :eek:

[Tojo]

You know you are screwed when they start thinking of you as a nice guy.


Looks like you're in trouble now Mr. Dean....:rolleyes:


Tojo

[H Dean]

See, it it they who think I am a nice guy. It is I who knows better. It is they who shall suffer (scary laugh).

Is anyone buying this?

[maddie]

I'm afraid not, H Dean.

[Aussiegirl1]

Nope, I'm not buying it either! Good try though!

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

See, it it they who think I am a nice guy. It is I who knows better. It is they who shall suffer (scary laugh).

Is anyone buying this?

Giggles, then chuckles, then falls off chair laughing.
Sbbe

[ladywrites]

I do think that spelling and grammar are important, simply because they make any piece of writing flow better. I also think correct word usage is important both for clarity and flow. Punctuation is also important.....

All this said I have read stories, and posts, on sites elsewhere, which have been lacking in all these and still been damned good stories.

I am aware that my writing is frequently imperfect so I try not to criticise even if something does grate on me.

I think what annoys me more are the people who either criticise others and yet dont try themselves , or who are scathing of others minor mistakes while often making major ones themselves.

One point I would make is that dictionaries are a good helpmate, but you do have to have a basic idea of how the word is spelled in order to look it up.

[Daes]

Small issues can be forgotten when it compares to the overall interest in a story, however i think the reason why its good to correct oneself is because those errors take away from the reading experience.. and in the end youre cheating yourself and the readers because its a distraction, and when a reader is distracted you dont quite get the credit you deserve.

Generally I dont think its a major issue when I'm reading a story But it /can/ be an issue when there are enough mistakes that one can't entirely focus on the story he/she is reading.

[Faibhar]

"I do think that spelling and grammar are important, simply because they make any piece of writing flow better. I also think correct word usage is important both for clarity and flow. Punctuation is also important....."

More than (4) elipesies(sp?) aside, I do agree with the grammatical comments made by Ladywrites.

Faibhar

[H Dean]

[QUOTE=Daes]...errors take away from the reading experience.. and in the end youre cheating yourself and the readers because its a distraction, and when a reader is distracted you dont quite get the credit you deserve...QUOTE]

I disagree - if your piece is error laden you do tend to get the "credit" you deserve. You just don't like it, usually.

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

[QUOTE=Daes]...errors take away from the reading experience.. and in the end youre cheating yourself and the readers because its a distraction, and when a reader is distracted you dont quite get the credit you deserve...QUOTE]

I disagree - if your piece is error laden you do tend to get the "credit" you deserve. You just don't like it, usually.

Makes me think of a tall teacher slapping a ruler in his palm looking down at me with an evil glint in his eyes.

[Rabbit1]

well ---I also look at ---do real people really speak with perfect grammar?

I do not think that mentioning bad grammar is a bad thing --if done in a constructive mannar---but to say a story is ruined by a few grammar errors or spelling mistakes ---or typos---and I know typos well as I type kind of funny ----

I think instead of rating a story real low because of this ---we could encourage the writer---by using our skills ---and just gently point out it could have been better if the grammar and spelling or typos were corrected

I know I published one of my early stories ---yes there was some grammar errors and a spelling mistake or two ---this story was publised on many different story sites ---funny how none of the others even mentioned grammar or spelling errors----it is a sex story for gods sake not Gone With the Wind ---lol

Are we expecting too much for free?

[StillBehindBlueEyes]

funny how none of the others even mentioned grammar or spelling errors----it is a sex story for gods sake not Gone With the Wind ---lol

Are we expecting too much for free?
Oh I know this is where I started in this conversation. Yipee someone agrees!!!!

[Silke]

I also agree, Sbbe, lol. While I might be expecting perfection from myself, I certainly don't with other people's work here. It's a bonus, but not a requirement. :)

[Rabbit1]

I also agree, Sbbe, lol. While I might be expecting perfection from myself, I certainly don't with other people's work here. It's a bonus, but not a requirement. :)


Well it is rare that you will find perfection in a new author----like drawing more flys with honey ---you will get better storys with kind but honest reviews----If I had published my first story here ---I can tell you ---I never would have published another story again ---brutal reviews is not the way to get more or better stories

[Silke]

Well it is rare that you will find perfection in a new author----like drawing more flys with honey ---you will get better storys with kind but honest reviews----If I had published my first story here ---I can tell you ---I never would have published another story again ---brutal reviews is not the way to get more or better stories

Yeah, and I see it from my own perspective...THEY at least have the guts to publish and face the reviews. With my own fucked up standards I'll never get there, lol. So, three cheers for the brave authors out there. :)

[Rabbit1]

yes when you publish your first story ---your heart is in your throat ---you have not yet learned to write for yourself not for others ---if they enjoy it fine if not oh well ----funny thing about my stories and the reviews is I got paid for both stories----must have done something right ---and wait until you have a novel published ---and the printer makes a typo ---your readers have paid good money for your book and there is the typo ---guess what the printer does not correct it until the next printing ---lol

[Widget]

oh god and then there are the people that can not resist pointing out minor errors like that too. grrr.

[Rabbit1]

oh god and then there are the people that can not resist pointing out minor errors like that too. grrr.


Love get used to it ---as there are always people who do that in real life too---not just in the stories you write---There seems to be those who know it all ---that think they do not make errors --even minor ones---

but a wise man once told me ---if you don't make mistakes ---it's because you ain't doing nothing----hows that for proper grammar? lol

Woooooa could that be how real people talk

[RoseKrystal]

a big NO on whether it should matter.

[RoseKrystal]

I myself do not have a degree in writing.I try my best. I can welcome contructive critisism.But to be honest.I wont waste my time or anyone elses, just because my grammar isn't proper....excusssseeeee me...lol.Sooo thats a big NO on whether it should matter. Sharing my experiences in story form is a gift to ppl...No one is forcing anyone to stay and read it.I have been a member for 3 days.I got one review.It wasnt just negative on one point...seems I covered the whole spectrum of errors.I doubt I will continue anymore writing.Sorry to anyone, if I made your eyes bleed from such an atrocity.....I really dont care if i have errors in this post...its my last so I dont care..G'Bye

[ElectricBadger]

Personally, I think grammar and structure DO matter. They serve a real purpose, after all, not just to let English professors fit in at dinner parties -- they allow flow and clarity. Truly bad grammar -- to the point of illegible sentences -- make a story horrible no matter how good the idea and word choice is. I weight it not as its own feature, but how it affects the story overall. If I didn't enjoy the work because of the bad grammar, then the work wasn't enjoyable, ya know? I also won't give a 10 to a story that still needs a basic spell check :)

[moptop]

Some of us love language for language' sake, and for those of us who suffer from that love, bad or incorrect use of language hurts. It's not just being picky or stuffy or annoying - it genuinely does hurt.

Gentle reader, try to be tolerant. If the author is here, surely it is because they wish to learn, and how can they learn without guidance?

Writers: think about it. At the simplest level, if you mean 'red' you don't say 'blue'. So: they're, their, there; I, me; your, you're: they mean different things! How can you say what you mean if you don't know that?

The written language is the writer's tool, and I believe we should all learn to use it as part of learning our writing skill. What use is imagination if you can't describe what you mean and build it in the reader's mind? How much more powerful and evocative can you be, when you have control of language as a weapon?

You have no idea how wonderful being able to communicate is until you can't do it! (I have lived in a foreign country and worked very hard to speak/write the language; I love it and miss using it. Sadly I now misuse it).

Of course, we all make mistakes, proof-reading your own work is really hard and yes, this is for free! But there is no excuse for pure laziness (I do forgive over-enthusiasm - I have to, it is one of my major sins! That and being verbose).

At the same time as supporting good and loving use of language, though, I believe we should all also fight against unreasonable shackles of correctness: why aren't I 'allowed' to start a sentance with 'however', and various other words, when that is exactly what I mean? (No, please don't tell me, it is rhetorical!)

[Nikita]

This is a thorny topic. In the beginning, I was so anxious to post my first story that I didn't proof it thoroughly.

Alas, I had to update several times and I learned a lesson, eventually. :rolleyes: I still repeat the same mistake, turning a story in before thoroughly reviewing it.

Spell check did the obvious, but at times the spelling would be correct but the usage was wrong.

The tool, grammatik, in wordperfect was confusing at best. Once in awhile it helped. Then the formatting was making me crazy until I downloaded a free program called Textpad. If you drop down VIEW, it will highlight the spaces between the words, sentences, and paragraphs. It also has spellcheck and saves your file in a .txt format.

Finally, I put a story down for a month...didn't read it at all. In fact, I took a break. When I did return to it, I printed the whole thing out, sat down with red pen in hand, and made corrections, switched paragraphs, etc. I decided that was the best technique for me to edit the first pass.

Secondly, I ask a fellow writer to proof it and I return the favor. I don't abuse this type of request. It is a big deal for someone to proof a piece of writing for you. So, when I proof for them, I use the same care they used for my work. The more feedback, the better. I can some of their advice, all of it, or none of it. But they know that in advance.

Anyway, that is what has worked for me. Y'all have to find a way to deal with the spelling, grammar critiques or make some changes.

Personally, when I review a story, the focus is on the story...I'm not proofreading.

However, when the mechanics, i.e. story structure, run on sentences, etc., get in the way of the story, I get annoyed, and spelling is the last thing I look at. By then, I've lost interest. That's when I make a comment such as 'fire your proofreader.' IMO, it is more tactful than saying the obvious.

Just my two cents.

[Widget]

I complety agree with badger and nikita, I am not anal about spelling and grammar by any means. God knows I make my share of mistakes.

I hate it though when it ruins the flow or the errors are so glaring and stupid it shows a lack of care and attention by the author. If the author does not care enough to take care of the work they have submitted by making an effort to make it the best they can ( AND NO I DON'T MEAN PERFECT!!!) then why should the reader care enough to continue?

[Lee Boudine]

GRAMMER AND SPELLING ADD GREATLY TO MY ENJOYMENT OF READING A STORY: errors distract my concentration. An occasional typographical error will not decract from my scoring. I will note it in the review.

The development of the plot and quality of character development are to me most important. Then the authors imagination. What unique relationships are developed.

Of course the stories I read will be determined by my bondage preferences. :blurp_ani

[H Dean]

I myself do not have a degree in writing.I try my best. I can welcome contructive critisism.But to be honest.I wont waste my time or anyone elses, just because my grammar isn't proper....excusssseeeee me...lol.Sooo thats a big NO on whether it should matter. Sharing my experiences in story form is a gift to ppl...No one is forcing anyone to stay and read it.I have been a member for 3 days.I got one review.It wasnt just negative on one point...seems I covered the whole spectrum of errors.I doubt I will continue anymore writing.Sorry to anyone, if I made your eyes bleed from such an atrocity.....I really dont care if i have errors in this post...its my last so I dont care..G'ByeOkay, I can understand being upset at reviews that hammer on the story content. I can even understand being a little upset that a story got a bad review because of technical mistakes...some reviewers (even me) can be a bit harsh. However, I was struck with the sheer arrogance of the comment in bold. A "gift" that had little thought or care put into it is meaningless and insulting.

[Nikita]

I agree with you Dean. If the story was an experience RoseKrystal wanted to share, that's fine, but the forum would be a better place to do it. No one here would criticise her 'gift' because of spelling or grammar. WTF?!?

[SimoneLocke]

Ensuring proper grammar and spelling is a courtesy to the reader.

Poor spelling and grammar makes an otherwise good story hard to read, and pulls attention away from what the author had intended.

You owe it to your readers to write in a way that captures their attention rather than distracts it.
You owe it to yourself as a wordsmith to know your tools.

[Faibhar]

I must generally agree with SimoneLocke re: spelling and grammar detracting from an otherwise worthy story.

That much said it is wise to keep in mind writers here are mainly not professionals with the usual editing skill sets, so a little leeway is frequently appropriate on the reader's part.

[iggygor]

I've seen several people mention that they have trouble remembering whether to use "its" with an apostrophe, so here's the answer. It's very simple:

"it's" means "it is" or "it has". Always. No other meanings.

(To test, replace "it's" with "it is" or "it has" and re-read
the sentence. Still make sense?" OK.)

In every other instance, use "its".


Hope this helps.