Clothespins Incident

[MajesticFae]

I have a question about an incident that just happened recently to me. It kind of goes along with Dawg's post. It made me doubt my Dom a bit and I'm curious to know if I was out of line in doubting him or if he was out of line in the situation. Here's what happened.

I've used clothespins on my own before I met my Dom, leaving them on for no longer than 7 or so minutes at a time. I don't recall ever having told him that I've ever used them before. I was on camera with my Dom and he had me put them on my nipples with the bulk of the pin facing down. He asked if it was still painful the first time at 6 minutes in and the second time at 11 minutes in. At 19 minutes in he told me to not let them turn blue or go numb. I ended up having them on for 30 minutes. I would've had them on for longer, but he noticed how bad I was fidgeting with them on and allowed me to remove them. He wanted me to leave them on until I had to get ready to leave... this would've added another 20 or 30 minutes onto the time had he not allowed me to remove them.

While I had them on, I didn't realise that they had been on for 30 minutes. When I was writing in my journal about the experience, I guessed that I had them on for 15 or 20 minutes and then I actually went back through my logs with him and discovered it was for 30 minutes.

Then I read Dawgs post about extended use and someone quoted that they can start causing damage as early as 15 minutes, I apologize that I don't remember who it was. I also believe it was Silke who said that at one point she had them on for 30 minutes and didn't realise it and freaked and that her Dom should've kept a closer watch. Reading the information in that post about the safety aspect made me question him.

Who was out of line in this situation?

Any opinions or comments are greatly appreciated.

[Silke]

It's a circulation issue, as has been stated in IDCrewDawg's post already. I'm not a doctor, but I've read all over the place that the limit to wear pins should be around 30 minutes. While I'm guessing that is a safe limit for pretty much everyone and depending on how your body works, how tight the pins are, where they are set etc., you might be able to wear them longer....it's a message that stuck with me.

The incident I was talking about was a quite intense session with my former dom over the phone. He had me pretty worked up and busy, so I lost track. A nice thing really, but only if you can trust the domly one. ;) Anyway, he'd asked me to put on the pins when we started talking and then things developed nicely from there. After the session, when he had me take off the pins, they looked and hurt pretty bad, but I thought (as you did) that it had only been around half an hour. I asked him about this and he told me that it had actually been almost two hours. :eek:

I didn't have any problems other than very sore nipples for the next day, but I still freaked. It might even have been alright, had he been there to monitor the state I was in - over the phone with a pretty tranced out sub - I thought it was over the top. Only one milestone that made me doubt he was right for me.

Again, I don't know how 'scientific' the 30 min limit is, or whether it's more of a thing similar to expiration dates for food (i. e. that it's safe to consume them without a doubt until that date)...but I've seen it over and over again. I'd be willing to risk longer exposure again since it went alright the last time, but ONLY if my dom was there to make sure I was alright. And besides, there's so much fun to be had if you take off and reapply them from time to time...big delicious OUCH!! ;)

I'd talk to him about it, tell him that you were worried afterwards, maybe point him to this thread if he cares to do so. And if he acts like a big know-it-all I'd be worried. But I hope he'll be open enough to learn and have your safety and well-being as top priority. :)

Just my two cents.

[Tojo]

The point is that not all clothepins are alike. Some are deadly, & others you can wear for ages.

It's not possible to bring science into it, but IMO 20 min is enough.

One thing I say to any girl I play with, is that 'you have a responsibility to your own safety.' I say that regardless of what I may ask them to do, their own health & safety comes first.

I think it's a mistake to have too much faith in your Dom- particularly when starting out. With the best of intentions anyone can make a mistake- this is not a science. Anyone who says otherwise may have a list of 'qualifications' as long as your arm, but everyone's pain threshold is different, & dare I say no two nipples are alike(!)

I found in an online session it's essential to first say 'Ultimately you are in charge- I may be cut off or be attacked by an angry wife' :32:

I also have a pen & paper- & write down times & every item of restraint.

Oh & btw- I think it's a mistake to have too much faith in your Dom.....:)
(yes I did repeat that....)
A big big mistake- ultimately you are in charge of your own destiny.

Tojo

[Ruby]

I agree with Silke and Tojo on this one. Their points are right on target.

I bought two sets of nipple clamps for an experiment.
One was so nasty, neither I nor my test subject could wear them for more than a few seconds. The others were so loose, they could hardly be felt at all.

Clothes pins or pegs can be the same. Not all are alike, not even from the same carton.

The tighter the pin/rope/clamp the more chances of losing blood flow to the area. The looser, the less chances and the longer the playtime.

Who's responsible? Both of you.

Before attempting any type of play with ropes, pins, pegs, clamps, etc., it's best to do your homework. Thank goodness, there are plenty of articles on the Internet to help. Cause when you visit "Dom Depot" they certainly don't have instructions for alternate uses of household objects. ;)

If you are the type of sub who easily looses track of time or drifts into subspace, then let your dom know. Like anything else, how long you wear anything can be a negotiated limit that should be respected.

In the library, there are stories of subs wearing ropes or clamps for hours, they are strung upside down for long periods of time, etc., etc. etc. And don't even get me started on things like inserting anal toys or objects without lubricant of any kind. Grrr. Then there's reality.

The lovely Jadetiger has a couple of threads detailing things she tried with some of her doms and pets. They are worth a read as she journals her experiences and discovered limitations.

Under New Management or Meeting A New Dom
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3220

Jade's Master's thread
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2857

This one is the flip side:
Mistress Jade's Thread
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2965

Let's get back to the responsibility thing. Lack of knowledge does not mean out of line. Mistakes happen and not everyone knows everything.

Remember the old saying:
Burn me once, shame on you.
Burn me twice, shame on me.

I believe that playing risk aware can help prevent injuries and keep both partners happy and healthy.

Ruby

[_ID_]

Fae - To your question if your Dom was mistaken. Because the incident was over cam, it is difficult to see color, see if the clothes pin causes the flesh of the nipple to go white when the clothes pin is applied. Also unless you gave him a close up of the nipple to see if the nipple was in the open part of the clothes pin, rather than being squished by the end of the peg. The amount of time that you could safely wear the clothes pin would greatly depend on how it was applied.

As was stated over in the thread I started, 15 minutes to a maximum of 30 has been given as a general rule of thumb. As silke stated in her post, she had them on for longer. So the actual safety limit of the clothes pin depends on many factors, the tightness of the spring that causes the pinching being the primary factor.

Discuss your concerns with your Dom. Indicate you have some concerns about what happend, see what his thoughts are. Then depending on his reacction, base your doubts there.

V/R
ID

[Talia]

I think "out of line" is a little strong..but the most I have left a clothespin on my nipples was 20 minutes. My Sir made sure I understood that time limit, where blood restriction, is concerned was understood before I applied them in any task he gave me when involving them. I never went past that time limit just because of the fear of damaged skin.

I have noticed, as others had mentioned, some pins even with in the same package, are tighter than others. Also, different types of clothespins are "evil". I've tried plastic ones that hurt like hell and, in my opinion, caused more blood restriction. Just becareful, and watch. It is your responsiblity as well as his to pay attention, especially since yours is an internet relationship. As IDdawg mentioned, color can't be seen as well as if he would have been there with you.

Best wishes

SB

[phantasy_seeker]

From what I've read and experienced, I think it's the amount of time between the 'resets' that is crucial, not the total time of having them on. 'Resetting' as in, taking them off for a minute or so then replacing them. That would logically solve the circulation issue.

I've had them on for a total of 2.5 hours recently with resets every 20-30 min. It hurt like the dickens, but they were perfectly fine after. If you try them for 6 hours or something, though, I figure you might have some abrasions on the nipples or the like?

This only applies to normal plastic clothespins, not the severe kind of clamps.

[Putnamcocpl]

Not all clothespins are created equal.

On another board there was an extensive article "clothespins 101"

How tight or loose can be changed as well.. by either overstressing the spring or adding tension to it.

In any case, the max length of time left in one postion is not a set thing, rather should be determined by the each sub. As was stated above moving them with a break inbetween is the best course to take.

In our POV, I apply them and after the last one is on, start a small five minute timer, one of those like a hour glass, so its quiet but I can keep and eye on it. This becomes doubly important when they are placed in the much more sensative areas, other than the nipples. We have gotten up to 45 minutes with 5 minutes on 2 minutes off.. and sometimes.. those two minutes can be just as interesting