Oh the Irony. Abu Graib Prisoners want Americans back

[_ID_]

Ok, found this article that just made me shake my head. In reading some of the comments from the refering link. I thought that perhaps a more intelectual discussion could take place here. Since our kinky community has a bit more civilized way of discussing things. At least I think it does.

Here is a quote from the article on the following link.


Some of the small number of prisoners who remained in the jail after the Americans left said they had pleaded to go with their departing captors, rather than be left in the hands of Iraqi guards.

"The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better," said Khalid Alaani, who was held on suspicion of involvement in Sunni terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/10/wirq10.xml

I look forward to a lively discussion

V/R
ID

[t.shirt]

Better the devil you know or better the devil you don't?
T.Shirt.

[Ozme52]

I wouldn't be surprised if the American Press downplayed this, if they report on it at all. It doesn't play well to their intended audience.

I'm all for a free press mind you, albeit an impartial free press. I don't think it's ever really been impartial in this country... You can almost always tell who runs a particular organization... and if they're pro-administration or anti-administration (regardless of whose administration.)

[siralex]

Stockholm syndrome, anyone?
the tortured comes to love the torturer.
I'm sure most members of any bdsm would understand that concept. *smiles*

[cariad]

BDSM syndrome - the torturer tortures the tortured because they love them.

cariad

[Lillypad]

Some of the small number of prisoners who remained in the jail after the Americans left said they had pleaded to go with their departing captors, rather than be left in the hands of Iraqi guards.

"The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better," said Khalid Alaani, who was held on suspicion of involvement in Sunni terrorism.

One of my old teachers was a former Syrian Prison Guard. When Abu Graib came out he luaghed and hung the paper in his room. I remember one day a girl asked him why he thought it was funny. He replied "Because, thats not torture". So yeah, I just wanted to share that.

[Asia]

As Sir Alex mentioned - Stockholm Syndrome mixed with PTSD and years of political, physical, social and psychological abuse.... Like the woman who has been tormented in her childhood by a trusted relative running into the 'safety' of the arms of a stranger - her new abusive 'lover'.

"He loves me, that's why he abuses me but it's not as bad as ....."

These age old and transparent political tricks - I think Dylan said it best when he said:
As some warn 'victory', some 'downfall'
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their marks
Made everything from toy guns that sparks
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the President of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

Just my humble opinion backed up by Dylan's political awareness.
Asia
xxx

[Lady Dena]

Ok, found this article that just made me shake my head. In reading some of the comments from the refering link. I thought that perhaps a more intelectual discussion could take place here. Since our kinky community has a bit more civilized way of discussing things. At least I think it does.

Here is a quote from the article on the following link.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/10/wirq10.xml

I look forward to a lively discussion

V/R
ID

The Iraqui government is not exactly known for the humane treatment of prisoners -- and there's no particular reason to believe that "regime change" would make any difference in that reguard. I would hope that the American government would strive for a higher standard than "we treat our prisoners slightly more humanely than the Iraquis."

- Lady Dena

[Asia]

Lady Dena, I honestly respect your opinion, but I feel obliged to respond as my Pa is from Kashmir and was raised a Muslim.

While we are all aware how the Iraqi government treated their own and the Kurds, I still think it's foolish to assume that the so-called nations within the 'axis of evil' and their governments are any worse (apart from the obvious genocide) than any other nations administrations - especially the UK and USA. India only regained freedom from the British 'empire' less than 80 years ago. The UK government still hold onto Ulster (Northern Ireland) as part of their empire. There was no humanity shown the alledged Irish terrorists (type 'Guilford four' in Google too see and example of how 'humane' the UK administraton were to the Irish (suspects or not) - only in the late 1990's were certain Irish politician's voices allowed to be heard on UK TV.

Every government has blood on their hands - I would hazzard a guess that only certain nation's people (e.g. Denmark, Norway) have respect from their democratically voted governments.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I know enough to guess that as citizens, we are kept blind to the truth but must fight to see through 'buzz-words' and at the moment - Al-Queda, Iraq, Iran are rather convenient cover ups to keep us depoliticised for something we will find out about in 10 years time.
Asia
x

[Warbaby1943]

on UK TV.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I know enough to guess that as citizens, we are kept blind to the truth but must fight to see through 'buzz-words' and at the moment - Al-Queda, Iraq, Iran are rather convenient cover ups to keep us depoliticised for something we will find out about in 10 years time.
Asia
x
Those are very true words and it happens more than we know or would even like to imagine. Well said.

[siralex]

I completely agree with sweet Asia. The only true fight is against your own government ,
and it starts by distrusting it.
I grew up in a communist tyranny, and remember we all used to look up to the US
as a place where "these things couldn't happen".
thanks to the last 5-6 years, now we all know they can and do happen.

and when talking about Abu Ghraib, it's irrelevant what the Iraqi government used to be.
my grandfather liked to say, your success depends on who you compare yourself against.
if the US really wants to be a moral standard,
Saddam is the last one they should brag about being better than.

[Warbaby1943]

if the US really wants to be a moral standard,
Saddam is the last one they should brag about being better than.

That is a great statement.

[Asia]

Probably the wrong place to say this but again, I'm very tired.... it seems the Pope has decided to show his true Vatican colours - no homosexuality, no condoms for safe sex and prevention of disease and unwanted pregnacies and now insults against prophets of another faith - this is one crazy place we live in - if you don't laugh, you'll cry...
Asia
xxx

[siralex]

If I wasn't aware of your deep respect for the Catholic church, Asia, I would've said that by persecuting homosexuality, catholics are simply trying to preserve ther monopoly over it. (a good orthodox christian just can't help a joke at the Roman Catholics' expense *smiles*)

[Ozme52]

Probably the wrong place to say this but again, I'm very tired.... it seems the Pope has decided to show his true Vatican colours - no homosexuality, no condoms for safe sex and prevention of disease and unwanted pregnacies and now insults against prophets of another faith - this is one crazy place we live in - if you don't laugh, you'll cry...
Asia
xxx


Are you really surprised. It was pretty clear to me this pope was going to be a step backwards. Not that the Church has ever really made any big strides toward modern thinking...

[cariad]

*Lifting a mod's early warning eyebrow and quoting Aesop's introduction to this forum...


This forum is not here for flaming. This means that insults against a poster or his views won't be tolerated at all. You can debate a view all you want, but a direct insult may result in a forum banning. An example of the difference follows:

Example: "Democrats suck!" Is not appropriate at any time. "I think what the democrats did with ______ is wrong because of _____" Is appropriate.

cariad

[~*crimson_flower*~]

I don't think that is anyway lessons the disgusting, inhumane behaviour of the US troops at the prison, probably just shows that the Iraqi guards are even worse.

[Guest91408]

Old debate I know, but this post deserves (or perhaps it doesnt) attention.



While we are all aware how the Iraqi government treated their own and the Kurds, I still think it's foolish to assume that the so-called nations within the 'axis of evil' and their governments are any worse (apart from the obvious genocide) than any other nations administrations - especially the UK and USA.


Excuse me? Are you suggesting North Korea really (for example)...I mean, REALLY, has no worse a record on human rights than the UK or USA? Please can I suggest you take a read of the many, many reports written by Amnesty International. As to this repulsive part of your statement "apart from the obvcious genocide"...:eek: What do you mean, apart from the obvious genocide...no, no no...thats the entire point surely!?!



India only regained freedom from the British 'empire' less than 80 years ago.


Without the British "Empire" there would be no "India" today...just couple dozen warring statelets, poor, still awash with cultural slavery and discrimination...weak and probably dominated by Russia or China. Yes, im sure Indians would be in a much better place without the modern liberal democracy the British Empire left as a legacy. Oh...and the railroads, modern industry and concept of a United India through education funded by British Univerisites.



The UK government still hold onto Ulster (Northern Ireland) as part of their empire. There was no humanity shown the alledged Irish terrorists (type 'Guilford four' in Google too see and example of how 'humane' the UK administraton were to the Irish (suspects or not) - only in the late 1990's were certain Irish politician's voices allowed to be heard on UK TV.


I find ANY comparison with the treatment of Irish TERRORISTS held in the UK with the well documented (please visit Amnesty International website) state torture and persecution of political opponents and generally anyone they dissliked quite repulsive and utterly without merit or warrant. There WERE horrendus misscarriages of justice and acts of inhumanity enacted by BOTH sides...but unlike the terrorist groups, the British state has been held accountable in both the courts at home and in the European Courts of Justice. Political opponents of the Iranian government regularly turn to Britain and other European nations, ask them (please) whether they think the UK is as bad...or even nearly as bad as their home state...frankly, I cant recall opposition female MPs being pulled from street protests and raped in police cells of Westminster very recently...
As to the Irish "politicians" voices not being heard on UK TV...well, why was that...because they were terrorists, and political groups supporting terrorists...the moment they began talking and engaging the democractic process they were instantly given their voice.
As to the "holding" of Ulster...when a majority of the people of Ulster vote to leave the UK, then they will surely be given that opportunity, such as the Scots and Welsh have been given opportunity. This is called democracy.



Every government has blood on their hands - I would hazzard a guess that only certain nation's people (e.g. Denmark, Norway) have respect from their democratically voted governments.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I know enough to guess that as citizens, we are kept blind to the truth but must fight to see through 'buzz-words' and at the moment - Al-Queda, Iraq, Iran are rather convenient cover ups to keep us depoliticised for something we will find out about in 10 years time.
Asia
x

Finally...I feel I can agree with some of what you say in that paragraph. But you are seriously mistaken if you think you can compare the UK or the USA to the totalitarian regimes across the globe. Even if we nod that both the UK and US governments are guilty of black ops, they still shine a whole brighter light than those governments you mention in comparison.

All the best.
Pain.


Im burning...I need my lover.

[isabeau6]

excellently said PainSister..i couldn't agree more with your statement..

[DarkSister]

Im burning...I need my lover.


Im never far away darling...X


Perfectly reasoned and insightful as ever Pain, you know my thoughts on this already...especially with regards to the Irish terrorism and the 'empires' influence

[Clevernick]

There is one aspect where the US and especially UK are deteriorating badly, and that's privacy:

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-545269

This is a chilling look from Privacy International...

[nk_lion]

I know I risk opening a can of worms, but I think certain things have to be said.



Excuse me? Are you suggesting North Korea really (for example)...I mean, REALLY, has no worse a record on human rights than the UK or USA? Please can I suggest you take a read of the many, many reports written by Amnesty International. As to this repulsive part of your statement "apart from the obvcious genocide"...:eek: What do you mean, apart from the obvious genocide...no, no no...thats the entire point surely!?!


I was taught as a child that to kill one person is like to kill all of humanity. Every country has a right to protect their citizens, but to wage a war of reasons and information that was fake or incorrect is a major crime against humanity in my opinion. Civilians die in wars, and thats what happened in Viatnam, and again now in Iraq, and for what? Oil? Influence in the Middle East? Finishing what daddy Bush didn't? Now before anyone claims that I'm saying that the soldiers are murderers, I'm not, I'm saying that the people in control are definitly not innocent. Does unjustyingly killing less people make one country better over another?



Without the British "Empire" there would be no "India" today...just couple dozen warring statelets, poor, still awash with cultural slavery and discrimination...weak and probably dominated by Russia or China. Yes, im sure Indians would be in a much better place without the modern liberal democracy the British Empire left as a legacy. Oh...and the railroads, modern industry and concept of a United India through education funded by British Univerisites.


The British did a lot in terms of economical/education progress for the world, but to say that India would be a couple of dozen warring statelets without Britains involvment is quite presumptious. China during it's history were broken up into many different warring states, and a few European countries till World War II were usually in some conflict or another.

Listening to the stories from my grandparents, a British ruled India was not a good India for them. Britain colonized India not to influence the locals in the 'British' way of non-slavery (which was abolished over a century after India was colonized), or democracy, they came to become richer, straight and simple.

Maybe you're right, maybe India (or the land) would have been a few warring states, or a huge country plagued by civil war, or maybe India would perhaps be a country not seperated by religion that actually is better than what exists today as India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. Who knows? The Moghols were doing pretty well during the 15th century, building stadiums, houses, schools, the Taj Mahal.


---


And on back to the discussion of the whole torture business, it's completely pathetic to see humanity still at a stage were torture is still something that's common, not only in Iraq and US, but most nations of this world

[anonymouse]

Maybe you're right, maybe India (or the land) would have been a few warring states, or a huge country plagued by civil war, or maybe India would perhaps be a country not seperated by religion that actually is better than what exists today as India/Pakistan/Bangladesh.

That's an interesting point you raise, nk. There's still debate as to whether or not the Partitioning in 1947 (1948?) was a good thing or not. The three stakeholders of the time - the Islamic separatists, Hindus and the British were all keen for it to happen (and there was at least 50 years of so of religious tensions leading up to it). Many have said Britain simply abandonned India, just as it did its Middle East interests leading to the creation of Israel at around the same time. The reason for this is Britain felt its capabilities for settling disputes in these regions was greatly diminished after WWII and the pounding taken by its military.

I've read some political commentators suggest that the major sticking point with Israel/Palestine is there is precedence in what happened with India/Pakistan. The argument goes along the lines that to create Palestine as an independent state, just as Pakistan became, can lead to Palestine having all the rights available to every other independent state in the world - ie: the right to assemble armies and to arm them.

The rhetoric around the time of the Partitioning of India was that the creation of Pakistan would end the hostilities of a minority group of militant Muslims against the majority faith of (secular) India - Hindus. It was a rhetoric that history has proved to be completely wrong. Once the lines were drawn (and independence was granted to Pakistan even before the lines were actually drawn) hundreds of thousands of Hindus were butchered trying to flee the knewly created Islamic areas (Pakistan and the region that is now Bangladesh) while similar numbers of Muslims were similarly killed trying to flee from India to Pakistan. It was a catastrophe and left something like 14 million people homeless - millions of whom would subsequently die from malnutrition.

In the sixty years since, India and Pakistan have continued to wage war of disputed territories such as Kashmir. Both Pakistan and India have nuclear capabilities and for a time there (a decade or so ago) they appeared to be on the brink of a nuclear war.

So the bottom line here is the Partitioning of India may well have been the worst thing the British could ever have done. It's impossible to turn back the clock, but it's worth remembering this sort of history in any debates about the Middle East. It's also worth remembering that India, the world's largest democracy, in run for all intents and purposes by an Italian Catholic woman (Sonja Ghandi). I can't imagine such a woman ever elected to run Pakistan or even Britain or the US.

[nk_lion]

So the bottom line here is the Partitioning of India may well have been the worst thing the British could ever have done. It's impossible to turn back the clock, but it's worth remembering this sort of history in any debates about the Middle East. It's also worth remembering that India, the world's largest democracy, in run for all intents and purposes by an Italian Catholic woman (Sonja Ghandi). I can't imagine such a woman ever elected to run Pakistan or even Britain or the US.

Sonja Ghandi isn't the Prime Minister, Manmoham Singh is, Ghandi left due to a lot of death threats and claims that she wasn't a true Indian.

And you're right, the partition was useless.

[Guest91408]

I know I risk opening a can of worms, but I think certain things have to be said.
I was taught as a child that to kill one person is like to kill all of humanity. Every country has a right to protect their citizens, but to wage a war of reasons and information that was fake or incorrect is a major crime against humanity in my opinion. Civilians die in wars, and thats what happened in Viatnam, and again now in Iraq, and for what? Oil? Influence in the Middle East? Finishing what daddy Bush didn't? Now before anyone claims that I'm saying that the soldiers are murderers, I'm not, I'm saying that the people in control are definitly not innocent. Does unjustyingly killing less people make one country better over another?

Quite so, couldnt agree more with you and I don't believe I was lending any credence to the necessity for war in Iraq...that, in my opinion is an utterly different debate. I was responding to Asia's post not defending the monstrosity that is the Iraq conflict. Saddams time was limited, he was ill, his despotic family loathed, given another 2-5 years it is entirely possible and likely the Iraqi people (in some form or another) would have risen and swept the lot from power.

"one country better over another" ...I often find the characterisation of peoples by their rulers quite perplexing. Do the actions of Saddam mean all Iraqis are evil, Do the decisions of the US President make all Americans liable...no...so why do we persist in thinking of nations as living breathing entities when in fact they are merely temporary social constructs of the powerful? A different debate perhaps.



The British did a lot in terms of economical/education progress for the world, but to say that India would be a couple of dozen warring statelets without Britains involvment is quite presumptious.

Yes, presumptious perhaps, but not necessairly wrong. In fact my position has a long historical support. Negate Britains entry into the subcontinent and it would have been carved up between the French, Dutch, Portuguese, Russians and local principalities. So the choice would have been French domination (and independence MUCH later with a lot less development and probably more violent ending) or fragmentation. I stand by that supposition, even if it cannot ever be proven.



Listening to the stories from my grandparents, a British ruled India was not a good India for them. Britain colonized India not to influence the locals in the 'British' way of non-slavery (which was abolished over a century after India was colonized), or democracy, they came to become richer, straight and simple.


Again, I find myself agreeing with some of what you say. Of course Britain came to make profit. Empires (and not just European ones!) are always driven by power and profit. Am I saying this is wrong or right? Neither. I did not say Britain came on some humanitarian mission with halos glowing above our soliders heads. Exploitation came with any benefits I've outlined, I recognise that certainly. None the less, India was a strong, 'modern' country once it was free...despite raging poverty and inequality in actual rights (if not legal rights) it still represents a glowing example of multiculturalism and democracy that others would do well to emulate. The horrors and crimes against humanity committed during the Uprisings by the British weighs heavily against us, but still the balance of our overal influence is in the positive.



And on back to the discussion of the whole torture business, it's completely pathetic to see humanity still at a stage were torture is still something that's common, not only in Iraq and US, but most nations of this world

On this, sadly, you have my utter and complete agreement. As a humanist, someone who believes in the power of humanity set free, I find torture abhorrent and its prevalence disturbing.

[Guest91408]

So the bottom line here is the Partitioning of India may well have been the worst thing the British could ever have done.

Don’t get me started on this. The British? Who requested partition? Was it us? NO. Although some of them are still held under wraps, the archives prove interesting reading when it comes to the negotiations regarding independence and partition. And say we had forced an un-partitioned super-India upon the peoples there...how would history look upon us as the authors of the most internally violent nation on Earth...for that is surely what it would have been. Constant, massive civil conflict...bombings, wholesale genocide, constant waves of refugee movements, political deadlock and probable collapse of democracy would have been our legacy.

Partition was a vile horrendous process but to say it was wrong is to ignore the alternatives AND the wishes of the major political figures (Ghandi aside) at the time.

Imagine the genocide of Rwanda/Burundi multiplied by several hundred million.

[thezigg]

The torture of those prisoners by the US gaurds was so blown out of proportion that it is almost laughable. People have no idea what torture is if they think letting a few dogs bark at someone or forcing them to build a human pyramid naked is torture. People in the middle east can be ruthless. Im not sure why but treatment of those they dont like is sadistic. Id take a few dogs and a little humiliation over pins in the eyes and limbs chopped off.

[Stone]

Hmmmmm i dont give a shit what they want and yes i would be afraid if i was them because im pretty sure they were the former opressors now that the tables are turned it will not be fun for them

[Sir_Russell]

Hmmm I was proud of America and being an American when we stood for things that right and to hell with the rest of the world. Now I am not, since we are so two faced claiming to be a leader in social behavior and works of law. I don't care what other countries do the US should behave in an ethical manner. To condone torture, murder like we are doing now is as much a terrorist way as any.

[_ID_]

I agree with you Russel, unfortunately due to America's love of excess we have been going down this path for quite some time.

[Austerus]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but there may well be a very simple explanation for why the prisoners preferred American guards. Keep in mind that the scandal there broke in April '04, but the Americans were still running the prison till August '06. That's a two year gap with a veritable Eye of Sauron gazing pretty steadily at the place.

My guess would be that the U.S. Army was veeerrrryyy careful in that intervening time how they treated the prisoners there...another horror story coming out of the same location on the U.S. watch would be an unstoppable public relations disaster.

So I would think that in actuality yes, the prisoners at Abu Ghraib under the Americans between 04 and 06 were probably MUCH better treated than they are currently under the Iraqis, if for no other reason than political expediency.

[Moonraker]

If I were a prisoner I'd want to go to the US as well. I'm sure any half decent lawyer would be able to get me a very tidy sum in compensation, assuming of course they didn't hide me away on Guantanamo beyond the reach of US Congress.

I heard the saying at Abu Graib was it's business as usual, just under new management.