Fantasy vs. Stark Reality...

[Faibhar]

On Fantasy vs. Stark Reality



Nearly a lifetime spent fantasizing, without actually experiencing some kind of event powered S&M motivations, seemed inane at best. Life was, after all, too short not to experience the thing for real. Time was long overdue for some kind of entrance into the actual BDSM lifestyle.


Intrepidly, not just one but several “munches” were attended. Munches, so named by their founder as a sort of social safety net that would not imply participation by the merely curious, appeared to be a welcomed introduction to the lifestyle.

Sadly, a string of disappointments from these events proved consistent. The more experienced at these conclaves proved to offer much less than anticipated. Cottage cheese thighs, beer bellies, love handles, et al… No amount of preparation could have cushioned the fall from dreamland to real life. Each munch, and there were some that took the extra step into actual BDSM lifestyle play, were mainly attended by social outcasts ofone stripe or another.

Now, facile thinking dictates that this critical observation comes from a novice-one not committed to sado-masochism, way superficial, an outcast himself, or just too“vanilla”(another term loftily used by the community in question to describe those with more mainstream thinking). But then there's the ‘lifetime’ bit of this same would-be lifestyle novice. A lifetime that also includes literature, an extensive intimate relationship with a like-minded feminine beauty, writing, day dreaming, communicating on the subject, etc. This sort of background would seem to indicate more cause than just the easy 'vanilla' answer.

Not since the last volume of health officials’ DVSM was written and printed has there been such a parade of hefty misfits. Take the only-skin-deep issue of body weight. Closely monitoring things like diet, food intake, daily exercise, notice of appearance and the previously held secret notion of sexual kinyness kept this mature male fit-all notions apparently not considered significant by lifestyle BDSM’ers. Munches were largely, and here LARGELY is the operative word, by the overweight, those with considerable paunchiness, the morbidly obese, those who consider the bending of an elbow or the raising of an oven mitt exercise enough; and those for whom food, any kind of food intake, is more akin to tanking up than nourishing oneself. Okay, even the aforementioned ‘beauty’ has remarked that her sex tends to carry weight in specific areas just as males do, but really! Where is the self-respect? Or, the respect for others? Of course the argument could be made that I was mistaken to attend expecting others to also be in shape and wrong for making superficial, snap judgments of others, and so forth...

If daily exercise for you happens, for whatever reason, to not be a personal preference do keep in mind the obvious. It does take some discipline to keep to a routine and it’s not all that easy, but the results do make it all worthwhile. Whatever habits you choose, just don’t mindlessly lump into the ranks of the pudgy, however kinky you or they may seem to be.

Talking in such social settings, forbid that conversations go anywhere further, is much like conversing with a dullard, dunce, geek or seeing a dim light at the far end of a very, very narrow tunnel. Pain? Yes it IS needed at these events. If for no other reason than just to pinch one’s self in order to keep from nodding off during yet another BDSM discourse. Again, this is not coming from some elitist posing as this century’s answer to Einstein; but at least a notion of childishly dumb egocentricity fled in the pre-teen years.

Naturally, or un-naturally if you will, only bigotry would take this smallish sampling of lifestylers and rule out any stimulating practitioners of BDSM/S&M/D/s existing anywhere else in the world. One does know better than to commit such folly (Apologies if you happen to be one of those stimulating few).

But should you likewise be curious and seek to realize a life-long fantasy life, be forewarned. It should come as no great surprise that what happens in real life frequently falls way short of desires your head and body may hold. Be prepared to significantly lower your bar of expectations. Keep in mind the notion that when pride flees hope sometimes remains. The faint glimmer that reality might somehow, someday come close to matching fantasy becomes not all that much of a dream..
Times Roman On Fantasy vs. Reality On Fantasy vs. Reality

[Mobius]

in bondageology. Lade da. Im so glad that you find your self in the 5 percent of the population. That is of the epitome of body beautiful. So you can look down on the unclean in your eyes masses of rest of us. Get over your self BDSM is 90 percent in the mind not the body. If you want to play you will not always have Jenna Jemison to play with. So put down your way over used thesorous and pick up a wip and play.

Yes when you go to a event wether it is swinging or nudist or bdsm you will allways find what you dont want to see.
If you go to the nudist resort your not going to find erotic people prancing around naked. Erotic people are not into it. They are to busy diating and exersising to stay erotic. That is there thing. They dont have time to play. There to busy binging and purging to play.
So stop looking in the mirror admiring your self and loosen up.

[Lord Douche]

Fantasy is never the same as real life. Fantasy is created by one (or in some cases more) person and is designed to entertain. No-one wants to read how your main character tripped over on a hub-cap during a daring rescue of Ms D. Distress, thus condemning her to something creatively horrible; such things aren't written, dreamed about or filmed.
Real-life, however, features such things. Don't be surprised, even if spoils the fantasy.

Mobius... maybe that was a bit harsh, although you made some good points. People aren't as perfect as we are educated to believe via the lovely technology of TV, and personally I don't like Jenna Jamison.

[woodsman'sgame]

Faibhar wrote:

But should you likewise be curious and seek to realize a life-long fantasy life, be forewarned. It should come as no great surprise that what happens in real life frequently falls way short of desires your head and body may hold. Be prepared to significantly lower your bar of expectations. Keep in mind the notion that when pride flees hope sometimes remains. The faint glimmer that reality might somehow, someday come close to matching fantasy becomes not all that much of a dream..

I have never been to a scene. Never experienced anything in BDSM outside of what woodsman and I do privately, but I would have imagined it to be much like you described.

I walk out in public everyday and see that the majority of us are not sleek and attractive. If I went to a scene, I would expect to find what I see on the street: a great variety of people with few great beauties.

Reality and fantasy are what we make of it. In the American ideal, beauty comes with slim thighs and washboard stomachs.
In other cultures, big is beautiful. Men look for women whose ample bodies symbolize wealth and comfort. They delight in feeling the soft mounds of voluptuous flesh and laying their heads on round bellies and large buttocks, or in the case of BDSM, laying their whips on these areas. =)

I have looked at pictures of many different people on this site, the often fake pictures of the websites and the real pictures of those who have shared with us their personal photos. The real ones are so much more erotic to me, for I can imagine that they were taken during real scenes of passion.
When I see the website pictures, I imagine the woman getting up when its done, grabbing her pay and walking out, bored with the entire shoot.

I am not saying that beautiful people cannot be passionate, of course. I am saying that the eroticism and the arousal comes from what goes on in the mind more than the body.

I would find it hard to be aroused or comfortable even in a scene like you described, but I would have difficulty even if the people were beautiful, I would think. It would all seem so staged and fake, a show rather than a real encounter.

... one more thought
In vanilla life, most people have sex but few are are willing to play out their sex scenes in public. I certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions about who participates in BDSM from going to one of these scenes.

[Faibhar]

Thank you all for your considered replies. Lord Douche and woodsman's game clearly had something to say, but Mobius, with a unique approach to syntax, provided the defining message on real lifestyle in the BDSM community.

Clearly, the message must be that one should really lower one's expectations, compromise, settle for much less, play stupid, negate all standards and by all means, never be without one's thesorous (sic) when entering into a play zone.
Oh, and don't forget to "loosen up"(?).

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... to be happy with what you have.

[e.e. norcod]

I do believe that woodsman'sgame has made the most perceptive comments. She is onto what is the core of our existance. BDSM is the state of mind that we bring to the interface with the real world and the greatest beauty is found at the personal photography thread. The bodies may not satisfy the ideal that the media promulgates but they are into something so intense that it blows the mind. The interface where fantasy meets reality. Munches are not where BDSM is at. The wheals and marks on the skin of woodsman'sgame are the reality and it is not surprising that this is a very private world. As probably it well should be. Sensuality may well have reached it peak in the paintings of Rubens and Titian. The skin is the canvass upon which the artist paints his story. The thin models of "favorite photographs" scream boredom and fakery to me - they may have exposed their bodies but nothing "real" really happened. My wife may be 50 lbs overweight but she exudes far more sexuality than the politically correct paid fakers.

woodsman'sgame I love what you do. And all the other subs whose marked buttocks and breasts make personal photography the greatest and most real feature of this site. Keep it up!

[Fox]

I must concur with what has been very well stated by woodsman'sgame, e e norcod, et al.

I wish I had said this, for it is quite wise.

"Existimos en la realidad pero vivimos en la fantasia."

"We exist in reality but we live in fantasy"

[Faibhar]

"Nemo aspicit, quin ingemescat"

Thank you for all of your replies, though it is something of a stretch to believe ee.norcord when he writes that sensuality may have reached its peak with Rubens and Titian. Do they work for some diet franchise?

The above quote from Cicero is mainly for Fox as she/he did include a quote, but does have wider applications in this thread.

All are quite correct in objecting to mere superficiality, i.e., things like weight, personality, etc. However, having previously set certain standards, and I repeat, not elitist standards, it is difficult to lower those standards for the sake of some secret/cultish mis-behaviour even when motivated by perverse notions.

Oh, and the translation of that quote? Simply said, Cicero pointed out that, " No one can lay eyes on you without groaning".

[abitbent]

I must admit, i was surprised as well by the reality of the local munch scene. Superficially, there were what seemed to me, a lot of very large folk. I'm not just saying a few pounds overweight, I mean those that probably will end up with diabetes because of their condition. Under 5'7"ft but over 350lbs if i may paint a picture. However what surprised me more than this, was the lack of connection on a social level I had with most these people, regardless of size. I'd say in a room of 60, 10 or so of them I could relate to on a social level. The rest, i'd say were just a little "out there" for various reasons, and even with D/s aside, I'd probably not find myself befriending many, even if they were my next door neighbour.
That's not to say I can't be friendly, but if most of them came up to me, with a genuine interest in starting a relationship with me on any level other than saying hello now and again, a polite "no thanx" would probably be heard.
I don't think that makes me selfish. D/s relationships are all about compatability, and as free humans, we get to dictate the rules that make up what we consider to be compatable.

bent

[Fox]

I find your comments to be somewhat amusing, Faibhar. You assume because you set certain “standards” to which others did not measure up, therefore it is their fault that you are gravely disappointed and disillusioned.

You say you are not elitist, nevertheless, you conduct your conversation in a very elitist tone and manner. woodsman’s game, e e norcod, and I, in responding to your stated disappointment, are first thanked, and then dismissed.

Faibhar, as others have pointed out to you, the world is populated by people large and small, thick and thin, etc. etc. I do not presume to suggest your standards may need reevaluation; I do not know you, nor are we likely ever to meet other than in this place.

That being said, and considering your words above, I do suggest that you take a very long and hard look at the world around you, and see where you fit in and how you may be judged by others. Remember what Galileo Galilei said about the solar system. Perhaps those attending the munch also had no interest in you? That is a possibility you know.

I do not speak of munches et al from experience, for my wife and I do not attend them, although we are aware of many of the players in our local BDSM scene. They too come in all shapes and sizes - some are very nice people, others are not. We simply choose to be more private than public in our sexual interests.

If you do not find what you seek in the places where you have looked, perhaps you are not looking in the right places.

Then again, perhaps what you seek is there, but you have not yet seen it...

[Faibhar]

Thank you (again) for your replies, though in Fox's case that 'thank you' seems to represent some sort of dismissal.

Speaking of which, if you have not already read the thoughts of "abient" on this very same topic please do (or, is that politeness yet one more act of dismissal? Is rudeness better?).

Fox continues to his patronizing lecture on different types and body shapes of people on this planet, something that I consistentlyagree to, and also his aversion to 'munches'.

Well, the latter seemed to be a sort of entry into the BDSM lifestyle scene. On further reflection, perhaps it is not. But don't I get at least an "E" for effort?

Anyway, before assuming the professorial role of lecturer, one should really first understand the subject and the audience...

[Fox]

I apologize if I have read into your comments something which was not intended.

By the way, I do not have an aversion to munches, or fetish parties, or other gatherings. I merely stated that we are quite comfortable with our own activities and friends. In our city, these events are very well attended.

I certainly do commend you for looking and attending, and indeed wish you well in your search. I merely suggest that you not be hasty in passing judgement - an error which I seem to have committed.

Mea culpa.


ps. The quote - woodsman'sgame is the source. I came across it serendipitously just before coming across this thread. A karmic coincidence?

[Faibhar]

First and foremost, no apologies needed nor necessary... If anything, "my bad". Thanx just the same to Fox for the courteous manner of his latest.

That said, alternatives that Fox and others may have found to meeting with total strangers in their pursuit of the BDSM lifestyle are to be commended, though for this rank explorer, lacking similar connections, munches did seem to be the entre to the BDSM sub group.

As for making judgments on the folk found at these munches, certainly not all were "bad". I do not recall ever making such a condemnation on these pages, but if I did, apologies again.

It's just that working up enough...whatever... to attend these events was laced with the aforementioned lifelong attraction, and frankly, from the limited munch groups attended the gene pool of attractive potential partners proved most shallow.

Hunrgy gazes in this direction aside, I may have proved the unattractive one. Who can tell? I would be the first to admit that this is certainly possible.

Anyway. A lesson has been learned. Not a "pretty" one, but a lesson nonetheless and it is that lesson that is humbly passed on to any others seeking more knowledge into the BDSM lifestyle.

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by abitbent

I don't think that makes me selfish. D/s relationships are all about compatability, and as free humans, we get to dictate the rules that make up what we consider to be compatable.

bent

i've never been to a munch. dont exactly know what a munch is. dont think they have munches here. but that's not the point.

it is a superficial world we live in. so we are all superficial in one sense or another, in varying degrees. there is no denying that. like in all forms of relationships, d/s or not, you'd want someone who's compatible with you as abitbent has stated.

so yes. if i think i look good. not beautiful, but moderately pretty. then settling for some terribly overweight person who's likely to get diabetes (to quote an above post) would be... well, not likely to occur. why? because i'd rather hold out, and wait, for someone more suited to come along. maybe its just me, but i wont just simply settle for something, just because there's nothing better around at the time.

i do not think i'm being elitist. i'm just being realistic. if i cant stomach the way you look, then how on earth am i going to be willing to do your bidding. i'm not saying that you have to be terribly good looking. but at the very least, you have to be average looking. and be physically in good health. i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size.

[-angelstar-]

and yes. reality will definitely not measure up to fantasy. but we can try to make it go as close as it can. standards and expectations can be lowered, altered, but there's always a limit to how low it can go.

i do apologise if anyone takes offence with my earlier post. but its just my honest viewpoint.

[Faibhar]

anglestar and others say it far more succinctly than I.

FYI: "Munches" seemed to be all around the place, and that can be a double-edged sword. They do, however, offer one avenue into the BDSM lifestyle.

Think hooking up with another has something to do with Animal Attraction/Chemistry/Clicking/whatever...

[kellevyn]

Years ago, I dated a guy who was well into the 300lbs. He was the funniest, most charming man I have ever met. To be honest, had I not been friends with him, first, I can’t say that I would have dated him. Not that I am shallow, but at the age of 23, most girls don’t look much at the balding, fat types. To this day, he is one of my dearest friends.

I had been pretty self-conscious about my own weight, being 10 pounds overweight, myself. I always wondered how someone could ever love me, looking the way I did. (I know, my only excuse is youth) What I learned from that relationship is that you can never judge someone on their outside appearance. I learned that if I could love him, despite the fact that he was over weight, then, most likely, the only person who was bothered by my extra 10 pounds was me.

I understand the frustration involved when looking for a partner, especially in this lifestyle. It’s hard enough to be open about it, let alone finding someone else whom you are compatible with. Maybe you could try looking online, get to know people, before meeting them in person. As your relationship develops online and over the phone, perhaps their appearance will not seem so important.

Just my two cents

[Finding_Fantasy]

I have been to a couple of BDSM meetings back in Houston. One was purely infomative (ie: upcoming events) The other was demonstrations but there is one thing I did notice.

There were people of all shapes and sizes there. :) It takes all kinds in this world and I am glad for it because I am one of those people that isn't exactly "to die for" but there are many that do not care about that. :) Which I am very thankful for.

[Faibhar]

Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

Now, is it so wrong to not be attracted to the unattractive? And the above just addresses the physical appearance. What about the inner beauty that seems to say, I just don't care how I look or how others see me? I may be stupid and slothful, doesn't that make me a real catch?

Shallowness, superficiality, vain glory, however you wish to describe the selection of others does indicate something of yourself.

[Fox]

Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

One of the most dynamic and interesting women I know weighs well over 200 pounds, probably close to 300. She dresses beautifully, is smart, funny, and when she enters a room, is the centre of attention because she is so charismatic.

One of the most self-absorbed, cruel and manipulative women I know is a beautiful aerobics instructor, with a body to die for, financially well off, dresses in the latest fashions. When she enters a room, she too commands attention, for her appearance and self confidence. But unlike the former lady, she is no lady and that becomes quite evident in a very short period of time.

My wife is small, slender, and slowly gaining the weight that middle age brings to us all. She shines from within.

The body is merely a shell, the casing in which we all live. It is the individual, the soul if you like, who resides inside that is truly beautiful.

The sad part is, it is human nature to not take the time to look past the outer trappings. And so we miss out on some of the most exquisite pleasures and relationships.

We are animals, social creatures, and it is instinctive to seek out sexual partners for the procreation of the species. Hence the "setting of standards" - I would be hypocritical to say I don't have them for I do. My personal sexual preference is for small, slender women, and have a stated attraction to red hair. So what.

We have within us the power to forge relationships that are far beyond the simple purpose of fucking. We don't need to lower our standards. The first step is to open our eyes.

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

Now, is it so wrong to not be attracted to the unattractive? And the above just addresses the physical appearance. What about the inner beauty that seems to say, I just don't care how I look or how others see me? I may be stupid and slothful, doesn't that make me a real catch?

Shallowness, superficiality, vain glory, however you wish to describe the selection of others does indicate something of yourself.

there you go. you've said what i wanted to say :) kinda.

its not wrong to be attracted to the unattractive. if you're ugly, or fat, or whatever, but you do take some trouble to make yourself presentable. then i see nothing strange that yes, people might find you attractive in your own right, because of who you are within.

but on the other hand, if you're ugly or fat or whatever, and you cant even be bothered to make yourself look presentable. then no. if you cant be bothered to even decently groom yourself. then i'm afraid i shant bother with you.

how you present yourself to the world outside, shows a certain amount of who you are as a person. if you cant even bother to care for yourself, then would you be able to care for others?

[Faibhar]

That middle age brings to us all

Speak for yourself, Fox, not for others. While Fox is to be commended for much, his generalizations on the maturation process leave much to be desired. Sure, we all get wrinkles and thinning hair, but not all of us succumb to allowing fat to just grow and hang about. Some of us do exercise to keep fit, both physically and mentally, regardless of the age.

angelstar seems to have said it best in observations noted of those that do care, and those that use age as an another excuse for slacking off.

[kellevyn]

Speaking from someone who has not even reached middle age, yet, I have to disagree. I exercise, every day. I belly dance for an hour and a half 5-6 days a week, walk about 15 miles a week, lift weights, and still, I am not as small as I was when I was 20. Age slows down your metabolism. It’s not really fair, but there comes a time that you can’t really expect to wear a size 5, any more. I really don’t see myself as fat, considering I am in better shape than anyone else I know, but I am definitely not a kid, anymore.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.



Originally posted by Faibhar
Speak for yourself, Fox, not for others. While Fox is to be commended for much, his generalizations on the maturation process leave much to be desired. Sure, we all get wrinkles and thinning hair, but not all of us succumb to allowing fat to just grow and hang about. Some of us do exercise to keep fit, both physically and mentally, regardless of the age.

angelstar seems to have said it best in observations noted of those that do care, and those that use age as an another excuse for slacking off.

[woodsman'sgame]

In my head I"m 25, but I look in the mirror and I don't see 25 anymore. I try and take care of myself (I run everyday and watch what I eat.), but age has a way of thwarting one's best efforts. Having kids doesn't help much either. It wreaks havoc on a woman's body, especially having twins. Men's bodies also deteriorate but not as quickly as women's because they don't go through pregnancies.

I'm still that same person I was when I was young. I still have the same desires and needs, and I still want my lover to find me beautiful. He has to look beyond the stretched stomach and extra fat and not so firm breasts and see what is inside, otherwise I am done for.

I'm lucky. He does. He hasn't left me for a younger, slimmer woman.

I look around me and see my friends, family members, and other women whose husbands have left them or run out on them when they hit their forties looking for a woman who "takes care of herself." (Women do it to men too, of course, but not as often)

It happens too often because what is seen on the surface becomes more important than what's inside, or becomes too important and clouds the viewer's eyes.

Let me ask one question. Has anyone here ever met someone on line? Did you come to know that person well before you ever saw what he/she looked like? I have and I found by the time she or he (I've met both) sent me the picture, I didn't really care what the person looked like. Race, size, age, didn't matter. It didn't change what I felt about her/him. Later I met those people in real life and found that the initial akwardness quickly left and we were able to continue our comfortable relationship. Woodsman and I have some very dear friends that we met on line and see when we can. I don't think either of them would have caught our eye if we had seen each other on the street. ( They probably would say the same thing about us, hehe) That experience opened my eyes more than any preaching or cliches ever could. Now I truly see people quite differently and push away the initial impression immediately, looking for what's under the surface.

Faibhar, I'm not implying that you would be so shallow or heartless as to leave a partner of 20 years for someone younger and in better shape. But if looks are unimportant to a person, if he/she is open to people regardless of how they look, if his/her arousal comes from what is in the partner's heart and mind, rather than his/her body, it is less likely to happen.

Throwing looks aside completely and making them unimportant is something that can be learned. I learned it. I wish I had learned it when I was younger. I have some regrets from my youth, some lost opportunities.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by woodsman'sgame
Let me ask one question. Has anyone here ever met someone on line? Did you come to know that person well before you ever saw what he/she looked like?



Yep. My wife and I met after a six month relationship online. The only picture I ever saw of her was about a week before she came to Texas to meet me and that picture was about five or six years old at the time.

And she never saw a picture of me. The only way she knew who I was in the airport was by the big neon yellow signs my other submissive, my friend and I were carrying with her name on them.

[woodsman'sgame]

And she never saw a picture of me. The only way she knew who I was in the airport was by the big neon yellow signs my other submissive, my friend and I were carrying with her name on them.

Obviously what you looked like didn't matter to either of you.
'nuff said.
:)

[everwilling]

When the lights are turned off, of primary concern is who took a shower last!

[Faibhar]

has anyone ever met people online?
woodsman's game queries. Most of us have, yet first encountering in person seems more preferable.

As for body types, a fixation here with ungainly fat seems appropriate, given representative BDSM lifestyles. To this comes as one unfortunate fact as solid underpinnings of sex connected with the subculture are vanquished.

And then there is the issue of fatty minds.


when the lights are turned off

everwilling's observation points to the convenience of not knowing, nor caring, where the light switch is.
Note that seeing with eyes wide open can also increase one's pleasure.

[julise]

Faibhar, I'm not implying that you would be so shallow or heartless as to leave a partner of 20 years for someone younger and in better shape. But if looks are unimportant to a person, if he/she is open to people regardless of how they look, if his/her arousal comes from what is in the partner's heart and mind, rather than his/her body, it is less likely to happen.

Sorry to pick on you woodsman'sgame but this quote was perfect for my point.

Before I continue, I implore you Faibhair to please let me know if I have grossly misinterpreted the message conveyed in your posts.

I think that Faibhair deserves a rereading of his initial post. He not only discusses the unsightliness of a lot of people at these munches that he has attended, but he also discusses the mundane conversation and that many of these people do not have the personality to make up for their unattractiveness. This means that Faibhair's resistance to fat did not deter him from conversation or trying to get to know these people. He did talk to these people and must have tried to find redeeming qualities in them.

I agree that somebody who seems unattractive on the outside can be attractive on the inside and I find that I can look past the physical in some cases because mental attraction does usually lead one to some sort of physical attraction. However, there has to be an attraction from somewhere. Faibhair was not able to find attraction for the types of people at these munches physically OR mentally.

Attraction/chemistry is very important and I myself will never session with somebody if I do not feel some sort of attraction physically AND mentally for them and I don't feel that I suffer from having these standards. Passion is not present without attraction.

I have met many in this realm and there are A LOT of people whose appearance actually allude to their personalities...in a very negative way. And yes, a lot of these people were fat, but for me it wasn't the fat per se but how they took care of themselves and presented themselves (I believe this notion was also mentioned in a previous post). Most of them were the epitome of fat slobs physically AND mentally.

Yes, Faibhair may focus more on the physical than a lot of you do, but it is also doesn't seem that Faibhair is solely dependent on it. He does not advocate solely looking at the physical. I am sure that he would not be attracted to a physically beautiful person without being attracted to their mind as well. Atleast this does not seem to be the case from his posts. And it also doesn't seem that he lets unattractiveness stop him from getting to know the people at these munches. But talking to these people made him realize that it is hard to find a person in this realm who is attractive in any way. This is something that I fully understand.

Faibhair, I sympathize.

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by julise
I have met many in this realm and there are A LOT of people whose appearance actually allude to their personalities...in a very negative way.

Would you expand on that thought with some examples?



And yes, a lot of these people were fat, but for me it wasn't the fat per se but how
they took care of themselves and presented themselves (I believe this notion was also mentioned in a previous post). Most of them were the epitome of fat slobs physically AND mentally.


How many seconds/minutes and what conversation topics do you allocate to make a mental
assessment of someone? The thought of attending a munch makes me so uneasy that I doubt
attendance and intelligent conversation at the same time are possible. Generally speaking,
BDSM is looked upon as “kink” in the vanilla world so what do you do, specify to your friends
that you’re into a lifestyle concept that they can not fathom then expect them to set you up with a
like-minded person? Fat does NOT mean desperate!



everwilling's observation points to the convenience of not knowing, nor caring, where the light switch is.
Note that seeing with eyes wide open can also increase one's pleasure..

Is it possible that everwilling was trying to lighten the tone of the conversation? everwilling’s posts read anything but desperate. Seeing through the use of touch can also increase one’s pleasure.

[Faibhar]

I chose two celebrities purely for sake of illustration in ferverent hopes of providing more of an idea of attractive mature individuals. Unfortunately, I have yet to meet either actors Emma Thompson or Dianna Rigg (sp?), but from what I do know, they are both fine examples of how all of us would hope to become. Grand as both are, perhaps they can better illustrate that age is not an issue.

Again apologies to any overly weighted and wounded egos amongst the BDSM lifestylers.

The last of several multiple q's from one Cyndylu speculates that perhaps a post from everwilling was intended to lighten up the online conversation. Perhaps, but in the larger context possibly even Cyndylu can imagine the benefits of a "lights on" experience.

Lastly, kudos extended to the fair and balanced post of julise. Also, her extended and appreciated gesture, but thank you, no sympathy needed here. Plus, thanx for the new s/n!

[Shadoom]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

That is an incredible callow and superficial statement. You just applied a blanket prejudice to many people.

Most people do not "allow" themselves to get "fat," and fat people do indeed care about themselves. Perhaps a fat person has severe diabetes, or a physical impairment that prevents ready exercise, or a lack of money to afford healthy food...

Perhaps a large person is quite mentally healthy because they don't care what society thinks. A person's character should never be judged by the physical appearance, be it skin color, sex, weight, or hairstyle.

And yes, as a matter of disclosure, I am a rather large fellow. My frame is large, but it carries about 50 pounds more than it should. I care very much about myself; the weight acrued due to two years of being glued in a chair for 12 hours a day in a sweaty heck-hole that makes exercise unpleasant.

I'm back on a high-protien diet, working on moving to a more pleasant clime, and slowly losing weight back to normal. But with my barrel chest and large frame, I'll never be a waif. I wore XXL shirts when I weighed 145 lbs.

[bdsmbill]

You wrote: "i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size."

I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs. Some would consider me 20 lbs overweight, but even at 230 lbs I am double the weight of a large percentage of the female population. Luckily taste varies. Some women like big guys. Maybe they like the strength that goes with it. Perhaps there is an appeal that comes from knowing your partner can bench press twice your weight.

BDSMBill

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... that a healthy lifestyle and body can be easily maintained, it is not true that everyone can afford to give it the effort that many people do. My wife and I enjoy walks several times weekly when there's not two feet of snow on the ground and when it's not -30C outside.

However, we live in a small town without the benefit of a "designer" gym with all the trappings. About the only thing we can really afford to do on our limited income, besides our walks, is to play racquetball or swim.

We cannot, for instance, afford a gym membership in Edmonton and then the gas required to visit it regularly. We cannot afford the "low carb," "fat-free," or "healthy" foods all the time. We tried it one month and our grocery bill doubled, because, let's face it, healthy food is expensive.

We do eat well, though, most of the time. We eat our share of veggies and we try to avoid deep frying everything, but hey man, sometimes, you gotta have a burger and some poutine. If you don't, then you're not really living.

The thing is that neither I nor my wife are "obese." We haven't "let ourselves go" either. However, we're not going to live in the poor house or face not paying the rent because we want a healthier lifestyle. When we get the money and the motivation to lose our extra pounds, then we will. Until then, we're pretty damned happy with the way we are.


Now, for my personal opinion on this whole thread. I have been mostly just watching the interplay between members and, for the most part, staying out of things. However, it seems to me that a lot of this thread is purely about vanity.

Vanity is humanity's worst sin. It's insididous and, in my opinion, can be quite revolting. Odd, isn't it? How something that's supposed to be attractive can be so repugnant.

I have a strong dislike for those people that insist on having the "perfect body" or the "perfect face" or even the "perfect pair of breasts." The thing is that your perfect body is the one you work on yourself, without spending five figures a year trying to sculpt it. The perfect face is the one you were given. The perfect pair of breasts is not the one which you went out and bought.

Being fat doesn't mean being ugly. To be very blunt, I find skinny people to be terribly unattractive. I cannot stand looking at some of the pictures posted in these threads and seeing a 90 pound waif with her ribs and hipbones poking out with an obvious fake rack that border on the triple E size. I mean, come on. Get real.

I'd rather see a 150 pound model with wide hips, a narrow waist and large (or not) natural breasts. The ones that couldn't give a shit about cosmetic enhancements and how many hours they're in the gym.

I think the media has set an unattainable standard for beauty today. Fifteen year old girls are going out and getting breast implants because they want to be more like the people they see on TV. Well, a fifteen year old doesn't need implants, they need to grow them on their own and see where they stop. At least give the bump on their chest a chance to mature.

This is the sort of tripe that the vain, media-induced, fashion mongering society of today has brought about. I can guarantee that the youth of America would benefit by seeing models of regular size, rather than size 0 twigs with little water baloons sewn into their chests.

We're teaching our kids to be vain, shallow, worthless little narcissists by preaching to them the values of todays' society. Those of you that believe you have to "look perfect" and have the "perfect mate" are buying right into it.

[Faibhar]

Originally, my post related to attempts to really enter into the BDSM lifestyle, and the general unattractiveness of the players, both physically and mentally.

Subsequent posts have frequently related to the some sort of relationship that lumps being overweight with an alluring character/personality. Using this same logic would seem to indicate that in order to enter into an active, real BDSM lifestyle, one should both look and act the part.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Originally, my post related to attempts to really enter into the BDSM lifestyle, and the general unattractiveness of the players, both physically and mentally.

Subsequent posts have frequently related to the some sort of relationship that lumps being overweight with an alluring character/personality. Using this same logic would seem to indicate that in order to enter into an active, real BDSM lifestyle, one should both look and act the part.



I understand what you're saying. However, resultant posts in this thread have led me to believe that the material is becoming less and less about entering the BDSM lifestyle in a satisfying way and more about the way people look and how they should take better care of themselves.

The simple fact of the matter is, if the individual themself is happy with their appearance, then that's what counts. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yes, but that also means that just because you find something unpleasant to look at doesn't mean others do as well.

As for people in the BDSM lifestyle. They are regular people. They are as vast and various as any other random population sampling. Chronicling one group of lifestylers and kinksters as the stick by which all others will be measured demonstrates a lack of forethought and understanding. We all know that not every population can be determined by only seeing one small sampling of it.

[mackie]

Lets face it, two out of three Americans are overweight, including the one out of four who is obese. So if you go to any kind of meeting (outside of the WW succes-story group and some health freaks) you'll bound to find some heavy folks.
If you take the IQ of the president as an avarage for the rest of the population and you are a mensa member yourself, you might become disappointed by the quality of the conversations around you.
If you went to that meeting with the hope that it would resemble some of your favorite stories on this site,.....
Your reality-check just bounced...:( :o :D

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by mackie
Your reality-check just bounced...:( :o :D

mackie, you hit the nail on the head! That statement also made coffee come out of my nose - good one!

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by bdsmbill
You wrote: "i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size."

I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs. Some would consider me 20 lbs overweight, but even at 230 lbs I am double the weight of a large percentage of the female population. Luckily taste varies. Some women like big guys. Maybe they like the strength that goes with it. Perhaps there is an appeal that comes from knowing your partner can bench press twice your weight.

BDSMBill

uh oh. i think i feel a need to justify myself now.

this might get a little confusing. but that's just me. a complicated person who doesnt make much sense sometimes.

firstly. the part about vanity and the 'perfect' body et al. i really am not an advocate of cosmetic surgery and what have you, or even stuff like botox to make yourself look beautiful. what i am actually advocating, is self love. make yourself look good, based on what you were naturally blessed with. so yes, plump people can be beautiful too. have nothing against them. its just how you package yourself and present yourself to the world as i said earlier.

but as tourguide said 'The simple fact of the matter is, if the individual themself is happy with their appearance, then that's what counts. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yes, but that also means that just because you find something unpleasant to look at doesn't mean others do as well.' --- that is absolutely true :D different people have different standards, different wants, different needs :p

so to conclude, fat, thin, ugly or beautiful, there'll always be a match somewhere. just gotta look hard.

and yeah i'd just like to make another point. there are people who are able to look beyond physical beauty. much as i am an advocate of 'vanity' ... yes i admit i'm a terribly vain person, but the guy i'm with isnt terribly good looking. he prolly weighs double my weight and is nearly double my age. i guess what matters most, is that you're comfortable with the person, that you're able to trust that person, and that you're happy.

if you are, then nothing else matters. tho yes, what others think is probably gonna affect you. but that's another matter to talk abt.

[redEva]

Originally posted by bdsmbill
...I will have trouble, then. I am 6'2" and about 250 lbs...
mmmmm.... who ever wanted a midget for a Dom? Brain definitely! but if i can huff and puff and plaster you to a wall – you cannot ever start your input into my brain! man is supposed to be BIG and strong!

[bdsmbill]

Well, I have always been big, and I use my Bowflex three times a week to stay strong. I am not twice my wife's size, but then again, I prefer a little more woman.

BDSMBill

[cyndylu]

Originally posted by redEva
mmmmm.... who ever wanted a midget for a Dom? Brain definitely! but if i can huff and puff and plaster you to a wall – you cannot ever start your input into my brain! man is supposed to be BIG and strong!

rE YOU SAID IT THE BEST!

[Finding_Fantasy]

You know... it's really hard to find a happy medium in this world today.

When I was a kid I was skinny...I mean bean pole skinny and really tall for my age. By the time I was 14 I was already 5 foot 8 inches and skinny as a rail. I got teased because I was too tall and too skinny. Plus hitting puberty and wearing a full size bra in the 4th grade didn't help much either. I got teased and physically harrassed so badly I had a nervous breakdown in the 4th grade. Why? Because of other people's perceptions of what is beautiful.

Not I am 27 and I have not grown and inch since I was 14, unless you consider outward. I am genetically doomed to be a big woman (that strong scandinavian background) and there really isn't a whole lot I can do about it. From the time I was 10 I played baseball, participated in charity runs and the lot. I road my bike the 6 miles round trip to and from my baseball games 4 times a week. When I got older I stared going to the gym, I took Judo lessons and rode in rodeos (and just because you are riding doesn't mean it's easy. Controlling a 1500 pound animal with one hand is not always easy). I also worked as a stable hand for and outfitter, slung hay bails around for my own horses and was a baker and had to help 60 50lbs sacks of flour twice a week from the truck aside from having to lift anywhere to 10lbs to 140lbs in a shot. I ate reasonably healthy as I don't really care for really greasy food. So it is not like I sat on my ass and did not exercise.

And you know what happened? I still got fat. Why? Who the hell knows. At first it really bothered me because I figured no one would ever want someone as big as me. I thought this way because my borther, his friends, and all of my friends (who were all male) would see a woman on tv who was thin and beautiful and say "Oh wow look at her! I'd do her." and yet when I heaft woman they would say "Eww look at her!" I have even had people call me a beached whale or make moo-ing sounds on the street at me. I even had one guy say "Oh my God, what the hell is that!"

But you know what, I stopped caring. Not stopped caring about myself but stopped caring what other people thought about me. I look at my father and my brother. Both are men who are in reasonably good shape, tall and thin but their wives are just like me. This holds true for a lot of people I know. While they themselves are thin or in good shape their spouse or significant other is not. While I don't always like who I am or how I look I have learned to accept that this is who I am and if people don't like it then they can kiss my ass... plain and simple.

My opinion is that unless you are looking for a work out partner, why should it really matter what they look like or if they are over weight? If they are confident and are well groomed then it really shouldn't matter. I don't know how else to explain it other than through my own experiences as an over weight person who can never be thin short of lypo suction.

Basically, I don't care what anyone thinks. I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am.

[-angelstar-]

Originally posted by Finding_Fantasy
I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am.

and that, is the most important thing of it all :)

[Jones, Nikka]

You and your life are the reflection of what you think about yourself. If you are a beautiful person it is because you think yourself beautiful and everything you do leads you to become more beautiful still.

The only comment I can make to Faibhar is that you will attract into your life the people that you decide are right for you. If your first attempt to join the BDSN scene was not pleasant it is maybe because you tried the wrong scene. Look some more. There are different levels to the BDSM scene in every town. And if I could give you a piece of advise that cost me a lot of anxiety to learn: be more concerned about mental and spiritual beauty than the physical kind.

[Fox]

I have people who love me for who I am...not what I am. - Finding Fantasy


be more concerned about mental and spiritual beauty than the physical kind. - slavelucy


Human beings can alter their lives by altering their attitudes of mind. -William James


A person starts to live when he can live outside of himself - Albert Einstein


There is no security in life, only opportunity - Mark Twain


Who has no faults? To err and yet be able to correct it is best of all. -Yuanwu

[Fox]

If you want to get the best out of a man, you must look for the best that is in him - Bernard Haldane

[Steely]

Excuse me for butting in, and I apologize if I skipped this same comment on pages 2-4 (low on time, high on things to do) but i think -angelstar- had a very good line in what he/she wrote.


and be physically in good health


I think this is the epitome of whats really important. Myself, I'd sure as hell never be called a small guy, (5'7" and 250 lbs) but at the same time, my ability to function (defined by me as my ability to move/work/relax) as a person is not limited by the fact that I'm large. The counterpoint to this was a woman that I worked with, she could barely walk because of her weight, was in SEVERE threat to her health and her life, and she kept gaining weight. I hear almost every day women complaining about there weight. It truly frustrates me to look over and see a chick who's waist is literally smaller than 1, yes 1! of my thighs. But I suppose thats where our society has brought us, so all we can do is ignore society and continue our lives as we choose.

[Curtis]

Wow! You know, this is the first thread I've seen where I'm worried about getting the crap kicked out of me! (probably I should take that as a sign to keep my opinions to myself, but no one ever accused me of being smart)

My best friend is over 150 pounds overweight and my spiritual adviser is at least 100 over. These are fine people, good friends and with minds not in the least flabby.

BUT, I would never think of either of them in a sexual context. (Yes, I've heard that BDSM isn't primarily a sexual activity. I disagree. It is for me.)

Faibhar's experience mirrored mine with the MENSA group in Syracuse in the early 80's. Not a good place to meet people, no intelligent conversation, pretty uniformly unattractive, and already paired off. ("The food was terrible! And the portions were so small!") I went to their meetings for the same reason Faibhar attended his munches. Playboy magazine kept referring to MENSA as "the high IQ sex club". If there was any sex going on, you couldn't prove it by me and -- yuck! -- who would want to?

On a slight tangent, my 350 pound friend tells me that "big boned" is a myth promulgated by overweight people to justify their overweight. He says that every fat person he's ever met claimed they were big boned. Of course they were -- their bones thickened from having to support all that weight.

Isn't it great to have a Forum where people will accept for just who you are?

[Faibhar]

"big-boned" is a term euphemistically employed by many-especially the hefty in describing their girth (I just want to beee meeeeee...). Curtis writes with a hilarious note and even if one chooses to disagree with him his post is still very funny.

Anyway, genetics (big-boned) do appear to play something of a part in being on the heavy side, but my original impression included the mentally flabby, along with the physically overweight.

Chalk any preceived "anti" fat comments up to an ignorant novice who thought that somehow, someway the BDSM lifestyle was supposed to contain sexual elements. Personally, it is difficult to find the overweight sexually attractive.

Given the relative "size" of the munchers tended not to be the turn-on that was expected. Coupled with talk of "toys", etc., try as I might it did prove difficult to find much allure with what was assumed to be an entre into the world of BDSM.

But, if it mitigates any ill feelings of the hefty/toy minded, then just shrug at one clearly not as sophisticated as you, on the machinations of the BDSM lifestyle.

[Curtis]

Thanks for your kind and gentle response, Faibhar. My impression is that this is your first thread and I remember how good you were to me over at the Pedestal/Pillar of truth, so I wanted to give you what support I could. You may not be as happy with this post.

I think it's pretty obvious (and not only from this thread) that Faibhar is an elitist. I can recognize the breed because I consider myself one, too (though, ironically, I don't come up to his high standards).

What's wrong with being an elitist? Shouldn't people have standards? Is it wrong to demand that the people you associate with come up to those standards? (For those of you trying to keep score, the answers to the second and third questions are, respectively, "Yes" and "No". The first I deal with below.)

I always roll my eyes when people say size, looks, brains, or personality doesn't matter. It ALL matters, just not all at the same time. I wouldn't mind having sex with what Lord Thomas (I hope I have the name right!) refers to so aptly as a Dumb, as long as she met my physical standards and I didn't have to listen to her. I don't mind discussing politics with old/ugly/fat people, as long as they can hold up their end (and they're not a LOT smarter than me...). Just as long as you have the proper tool to suit the job.

I can see only one thing wrong with being an elitist: It's lonesome-making. And the higher you set your standards the lonelier you become. Not only do we isolate ourselves, but we get ostracized by those "reverse snobs" out there (and there are a lot of them, ALSO including me) who feel threatened by our betters. (Remember those kids in school who used to pick on "the brains"?)

Okay, I'm stuck for a wrap-up paragraph, so I'll just end this here.

[bdsmbill]

It was posted here: "I wouldn't mind having sex with what Lord Thomas (I hope I have the name right!) refers to so aptly as a Dumb, as long as she met my physical standards and I didn't have to listen to her. "

Sorry, I disagree completely. By your standard, the partner could be passed out, dead, or a poodle, as long as she looked good. Sex is a highly mental activity, and I want a partner who can hold up her end. If she can't, I might as well get a blow-up doll.

I am very much an elitist, but my primary criteria is mental, not physical. Where the physical is concerned, my taste runs toward women a bit larger than the fashon mag standard. I would say 150 to 200 pounds (or a bit more) is the perfect range -- big enough to not seem childlike, but still small enough to easily pick up and carry.

Bones? Yep, I prefer she have them, and they do come in different sizes, no matter what you may read here. I know women with tiny little hands that won't even wrap around my dick, while others have hands almost as large as mine. I suppose there is an attraction about a tiny woman as a sub. After all, if you are one of those 120 pound wenches, I can easily hold both of your wrists in one hand and pick you up. While I hold you off the ground with that hand, I could have some fun exploring with the other.

I would just want you to be smart enough to appreciate what was happening.

BDSMBill

[julise]

Faibhar, I just realized that I misspelled your name throughout my last post. I do apologize.

Now for the reason of my post. I have to say that a lot of people are still being very unfair to Faibhar's original meaning of this thread. Too many of the posts on this thread are focusing on Faibhar's mention of appearance. He has made other points and has not limited himself to appearance.

I would also venture to say that some of you are not as open minded as you think you are.


To be very blunt, I find skinny people to be terribly unattractive. I cannot stand looking at some of the pictures posted in these threads and seeing a 90 pound waif with her ribs and hipbones poking out with an obvious fake rack that border on the triple E size. I mean, come on. Get real.

With all due respect BDSM_Tourguide (and I am being very sincere about the due respect), this is also a judgment of appearance. I have a few friends that are very skinny because of high metabolism and they try to gain weight but can't. They would find your post very insulting. We shouldn't always assume that skinny people are trying to be skinny.

Again I say reread Faibhar's posts. He is not just focusing on the outward appearance. He looks to the mind as well. But he also doesn't claim to be some open minded saint and I think that his honesty and lack of hypocrisy is refreshing.
(Please do not jump to conclusions and assume that I am calling any of you a hypocrite. If you feel that I am talking to you, then maybe you should wonder why.)

I think that a lot of you are being unfair and ganging up on Faibhar. As many of you preach that judgement is unfair, I think it wrong to judge Faibhar for his preferences.

julise

(by the way bdsmbill, that picture you painted with your description of holding your sub up by both of her wrists and using the other to explore was a very nice picture indeed.)

[Steely]

With all due respect BDSM_Tourguide (and I am being very sincere about the due respect), this is also a judgment of appearance. I have a few friends that are very skinny because of high metabolism and they try to gain weight but can't. They would find your post very insulting. We shouldn't always assume that skinny people are trying to be skinny.


If I can interject... How many of those skinny friends have large breasts? How many of those are fake? How many of those friends lives are based solely on looking perfect in front of a camera? Thats that Tourguide was getting at if i'm not mistaken...

[julise]

Yes, I appreciate that Steely, and you do bring up a good point. But the first line in that paragraph is...


...I find skinny people to be terribly unnattractive.

He then goes on to describe one type of skinny, but that original sentence is very general and would seem so to my skinny friends as well.

julise

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I find skinny people to be unattractive. I do not find thin people to be unattractive, nor do I find people that are slightly underweight unattractive.

I find people that are massively underweight unattractive. I don't want to see bones sticking out everywhere from my partner. I would rather them have healthy looking bodies with nice curves and round things where they are supposed to be. And not storebought round things either.

Yes, Steely hit it on the head when he said I was referring to people that spend their lives in front of cameras and have to look "good," as relative a term as that is.

The truth of the matter is that, with the exceptions of Aria Giovanni and Dita von Teese, I don't find any porn stars or models to be all that great looking. That was my primary motivation for starting the Personal Photography thread. I wanted to see real people in their real settings, not a bunch of fakes posing for profit.

For the record, I also find many mainstream actresses to be not worth a second look. Courtney Cox-Arquette comes immediately to mind, so does Jennifer Aniston. Sarah Michelle Gellar looked so much cuter in seasons one and two of Buffy, before she went skinny, too.

Fortunately, the trend for skinny may be disappearing again. I'm noticing that the 60s/70s fashions are starting to go "out" again and the 80s seem to be coming back around. If the 80s do make it back "in," then we should start seeing healthy-looking models and women again, rather than twigs with baloon racks.

Also, remember that this is just my personal preference. I know plenty of people that like the emaciated look. It's just not for me.

Lastly, from my personal experience, it seems turning thirty will do away with that nasty old metabolism thing. So will quitting smoking, drinking, drugs, as well as will getting married, having a baby or getting cookbooks for Christmas.

[Faibhar]

What is it about the Weight Thing? Is it only me, or is here a whiff of defensiveness in the air?

Actor Sly Stallone's mother, remember her?, used to say that Sly liked them emaciated as he liked to see their ribs show. Well, anyone who has worked out knows that the rib cgae does expand with exercise. True, diet also provides further definition, but really...Emaciated? I think not.

Thank you all, and julise with a lovely name such as yours there is no need for apology about misspelling another's name. Your thoughts are appreciated.
As are those of Curtis, but I must disagree with the elitist handle. True, it is, as you say, 'lonesome making', if only through a (natural) selection process. Bdsmill, while somewhat coarse in his post appears accuarate, and BDSM_Tourguide, well, he describes life experiences many of us have enjoyed/endured. Such happenings though should in no way give one an excuse to become slovenly be they BDSM Lifestylers or more vanilla-mainstream types.

[woodsman'sgame]

I think it's pretty obvious (and not only from this thread) that Faibhar is an elitist. I can recognize the breed because I consider myself one, too (though, ironically, I don't come up to his high standards).

Curtis,

Whether that entire post was dead serious or tongue in cheek. It doesn't matter. It was just too funny. Thanks for the laugh.

[DeliaDay]

Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.


To borrow a phrase from Maxwel Smart, that's the second most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

[Faibhar]

How fortunate it must be to (seemingly) have heard only just two ridiculous things as has Delia.

[DeliaDay]

Originally posted by Faibhar
How fortunate it must be to (seemingly) have heard only just two ridiculous things as has Delia.

Perhaps you should read that again, there was a key adjective you missed.

[GaryWilcox]

Should I ask everyone here to consider mercy, or is it fun to spar?

This is a forum for people who enjoy games of Domination and submission... and no one's asking for a white knight or a peacemaker. Yet I feel I should step in and say something... that's silly of me, but I feel it nonetheless.

Hmmm...

:: Promptly butts out ::

[Faibhar]

No, it is hardly any fun to "spar", especially when you spar with some dolt.
RubbrSpatula is quite correct in sensing untoward antagonism, some sort of defensive mechanism, or whatever. Much finer pursuits can be had here, rather than continued pointless sparring...

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I see the discussions and debates that we have here as being healthy exchanges of opinions, in most cases. There are some cases where it's just purely brainless and insulting, but for the most part, I see it as good, clean debating.

How are other opinions to be explored if everyone agrees or if the essence of politeness keeps the free flow of thoughts and ideas from being unleashed? (©2003 BDSM_Tourguide)

If I feel there are cases of pointless bickering, then I will let the offending parties know, even if one such party is myself. Hence my limited replies to some topics on these forums. I frequently bite my tongue and keep my fingers from typing "God, what a dumbass" to keep the domestice tranquility of these forums. Besides, I hear I'm supposed to set an example for others. Bummer, eh?

[Cleo671]

oops..
I do apologise..wrong reply..in wrong topic..

is there a 'red faced' smilie in here?

[Faibhar]

A couple of issues raised by the post from Cleo671. As the post resonnates earlier comments made, perhaps adressing them again is called for.


I don't know your age Are we using the plural here or just the singular second person tense? If the latter, let's say in October I turned double nickels. That much said, it should also be added that yes, the issue of cosmetics in the past has been of a concern, and that females known have also worked hard at maintaining their physical, as well as, mental "looks".

Speaking of which, is it my bias or Cleo671's who begins by stating that she is a "female". Does this matter? Is it really that much more important to be a female? Much easier to not wear a bag over one's head so as to not chase members of the opposite sex away? Do females care less about their appearance, or have greater standards than their opposite gender? Are they as a whole more mature and wise?

If the above questions appear a bit naive, please pardon. It's just that as stated previously here attempts to meet bdsm lifestylers through entry level munches were a tad disappointing in the titillating department. Distinctions over which sex appeared the superior were purely secondary to just finding anyone of any sex attractive.