A question of space?

[YNHumiliator]

"Subspace" - does it actually exist?

It's talked about a lot at times and to tell the truth I've always found it fascinating. So what is it?

From my experience (observing sub females) there appears to be two specific types of subspace:

1) When someone is edging on their limits they suddenly become almost languid and vague in their reactions. The effect of painful stimuli is dulled and their pupils become fully dilated. Seems almost like they're in a post orgasmic haze or have drunk too much wine!!
2) When someone is experiencing an orgasm after a painful or intense session they suddenly "lose" themselves i.e. they're no longer aware of where or who they are and have to be "brought back" gently. This is a much stronger reaction than they would normally have. In contrast to the above their pupils contract to pin-pricks.

Obviously everyone is different and I've only seen these effects in some people. I presume both are altered states triggered by an endorphin rush. Are these examples of subspace?

Those I've asked have described the experience very differently - some say it's amazing, seeing rainbows, fields, coloured rain (!) etc whereas others have said it can be frightening and disorientating.

I'd like to ask - how do we think it actually works? Does pain, pleasure or a combination of the two open the door? And finally - whats it like when you're actually there?

YNHumiliator

"...a friend who bleeds is better."

[Jones, Nikka]

The condition known as subspace is caused, as explained to me by a neurologist friend of mine, by endorphins, which are released into the bloodstream in moments of acute physical stress or pain. This endorphins block first the pressure receptors on the skin and then the pain receptors in the brain. This is why the sub stops feeling sharp pain before experiencing that dreamy, "I'm flying" type of sensation.

Depending of what else is in the bloodstream (alcohol or drugs), it is possible to experience delusions or halucination, but the natural feeling is one of euphoria. If undergoing a very intense session, the sub may actually overdose on her own endorphins, causing the shock symptoms of contracted pupils and shivering, as well as impaired vocal skills.

Of course that is just the physiological angle. On a mental level, at least in my case , it causes what I call a 'mental orgasm' of bone-liquifying intensity. It gets me to that point where I can see my skin breaking under the lash and my only reaction is "Yes... I want more"

[Shaya]

Master explained that my entry into subspace was due to the release of endorphins in response to the pain and stresses my body experiences during our play. i guess that makes my Master pretty smart since it's nearly what your friend says too ( i always thought He was smart :).

i have experienced that shivering affect as well as the feeling of euphoria. i also do feel rather spacey after being in subspace, sort of lost. my thought processes are impaired for a bit. But even while i feel not so bright, at the same time i feel very relaxed and refreshed.

for me it is an amazing experience, as one moment the pain is so intense i am debating using my safe word, and then in an instance i can see more then feel the pain and i seem to be enveloped in a feeling of peace and well being.

As you say, i also am sure the experience is different for everyone.

slave shaya

[e.e. norcod]

What you describe corresponds pretty closely to what we know physiologically. The euphoria is consistent with endorphins. I do have to admit that I do not know of anyone who has confirmed this by blocking the reaction with drugs like Narcan that prevent the binding of endorphins to their receptors. I suspect that the pin-point pupils may be do to adrenaline due to the variety of mediators of acute inflamation (histamine, seratonin, prostaglandins and perhaps some cytokines) released from the welts plus adenergic stimmulation. If this is true there the pinpoint pupils should be accompanied by rapid pulse and respirations.

[YNHumiliator]

Yep - thanx for the physiological input. Thats pretty much the explanation I expected.

But what about the trigger that gets someone into subspace.
Is it a moment of intense pain, a moment of intense pleasure - or possibly a combination of the two. Is it none of these but instead a gradually building mental state that "breaks" at some point? By that I mean - a combined response to everything around you and the specific things you're experiencing.

I'd like to hear some descriptions of what "you" feel and what "you" see when it happens.

Regards, the ever curious YN.

"...I am the cross you bear, the road that's paved with fire, the mirror of yourself, the one that you desire..."

[YNHumiliator]

Hey all,

I've been away for a while, too long - due to computer manufacturers, phone companies and lightning (!) - but looking back to this "oh so old" thread I'm still intrigued.

Anyone willing to share some details of their personal "space" - what they feel and what they "see" when they go there?

YNHumiliator

[Dngnkeeper]

Snip...
But what about the trigger that gets someone into subspace.
Is it a moment of intense pain, a moment of intense pleasure - or possibly a combination of the two. Is it none of these but instead a gradually building mental state that "breaks" at some point? By that I mean - a combined response to everything around you and the specific things you're experiencing."Snip...


YN
After the great job others have done explaining the biological mechanisms involved I'll pull out an example from my subby days.

In what I consider a great scene the "trigger" (good word for it) is pain. It is pain that causes the body to produce the endorphins that produce the perception of pleasure. In addition it also activates the production of adrenalin. This stems from the biological aspects based in our genetic makeup.

As for how it feels on what you "see" and "hear" for me no two experiences are alike. If asked at the end of a scene I would be hard pressed to give you specific details, much like waking after a dream.

Let me try to give some generalizations form my experiences. At the beginning I am very conses of the environment and for me relaxation, both mental and physical, is a tough process. So at this point I am processing all input, sensory, visual and audio against background. Anxiety over what is to come and sometimes fear of the unknown are the predominate states and thoughts. At this point mundane thoughts are probably randomly popping up to distract.

As the scene progresses the adrenalin is generally the first to kick in (at least with me) and with it is the desire to flee. This is where doubts about my choice to bottom arise, this is where thoughts and images of past nonconcentual pain will begin to appear. This will be evidenced by heavy muscle contractions and heavy labored breathing.

Once the endorphins arrive things take a very different track. Pleasure perception begins and thoughts, images and sounds of past pleasurable events begin to appear. Also at this point muscles will begin to relax and breathing, while still heavy, will be relaxed as well. As the scene progresses the random thoughts will fade and eventually end. At this point I am acutely aware of the sensations being presented. This, I think would be you "break. Welcome to sub space. :D Cognitive reasoning is off. This is where if the Top likes to talk with the bottom during the scene answers are not forthcoming. During this part of the scene I generally do not visualize anything and audio is limited to what is in the room, if it is being processed at all. Generally this is the time the sexual aspects of pleasure begin to kick in. This is where the Top has pretty much full control of the roller coaster of sensations. The skillful application of pain and sensation will allow them to continue working endorphins against adrenalin for quite a while. All the while I am simply reacting physically to the offered sensation. The basic concept is MORE, YEA MORE. This is the time limits can be expanded and new territory charted.

If the stars are aligned just right and the Top has connected in some unusual way, occasionally, there will be yet another level for me. This is where I begin to not process physical input but begin to visualize the scene from the point of an observer in the room. While I still feel some of what is being presented, I will see the Top and myself, hear the breathing etc.. These out of body experiences are rare but cherished. Here is where I begin also to crave more pain. Physical reality has ceased to exist. Colors are vivid here. The Top will note a total relaxation of muscles, decrease in breathing and lack of response to their work. Some people will see this as fainting but for me its just lost in subspace. If the Top is really good they will recognize this and carry on.

Now we come to the end. Its time to readjust to the world and find my way home. The adrenalin and endorphins, while still in the system, are not being produced in mass quantities and the body is totally spent from the adrenalin. Sugar levels are low and the muscles worn out. The brain, flooded with endorphins, is mush, pretty much incapable of anything. This is the time for sharing with the Top the raw energy they have built up.

The basic tenant here is that for this type of scene, which bottoms crave and Tops love, is the interplay of endorphins and adrenalin and the Tops ability to read the signs of breathing, muscle tension and action, skin color and reactions.

Hope this makes even a bit of sense.

Disclaimer: This is my perception and mine alone. Everyone is different and has different reactions and experiences. I feel cretin your mileage will very. ;)

DK

[Lil One]

Thanks so much for your post, Dngnkeeper. What a thorough (and beautiful) explanation of subspace. Your post answered a lot of questions I've had, but also presented some new ones.

While reading the section you wrote about adrenalin (the fifth paragraph of your post), I had a light-bulb moment. My experience is that I crave pain, but while in the scene, I will often safeword prematurely. I've wondered why. In your post, you said that "This is where doubts about my choice to bottom arise, this is where thoughts and images of past nonconcentual pain will begin to appear." Wow! This is EXACTLY the point where I safeword. Prior to reading your post, I wondered why I abort so early in the game. I thought maybe I don't trust my top, but that's not it.....I trust him with everything. Now I'm beginning to think it has more to do with the images of nonconsensual pain experienced in the past.

So my question is, how did you push beyond that and stay with it, getting to the point of subspace?

Thanks again for such an excellent post. I'm going to re-read it a couple of times and ponder it much!!

[csr]

Dngnkeeper; I have to agree that your description is very good. My own experience is much like this--different only in some small points.

Pain can be a trigger for me too... I start out frustrated and any pain experienced in the initial stages of the scene still seems to 'hurt.' I too find myself very easily distracted by mundane thoughts; sometimes these lead me off into thinking that I shouldn't even be here--that I have things to do! Crazy, I know--since I crave this situation.

Eventually, there reaches a point usually where the punishment has reached a level of pain that shocks me as "unbearable" (it isn't, though). At that point my body automatically reacts with panic, the adrenaline starts to rush, and my breathing and heart rate go up. My mind is clouded with thoughts like "OMG--this is too much." Deep down I know that I could use my safeword/signal but I never do. On the surface though, I am struggling to escape as a natural reaction.

It is at this point usually that my domme leans in close and speaks in my ear "Is this too much... you want me to stop?" The words are almost menacing, but if I nodded my head she would let me go. Every single time though, I stop to think about it. I don't know why I ponder it--maybe just to remind myself I have a choice. Once I shake my head 'no', I have given in and my descent into subspace begins.

It must be this turning point which accelerates the progress... because pretty soon afterwards I will experience a warm, euphoric feeling. The pain becomes love, the bonds become friends, and usually I experience a great rise in body temperature. It is amazing how much like MDMA this experience is. (pure mdma mind you, not crappy speed-laced pills)

I can also get into sub-space with no punishment or pain whatsoever. This comes from extended periods of bondage. After about an hour, I start to go through stages... frustration, struggle, submission, struggle, giving up... something like that. Eventually, I will enter that euphoric trance-like state. If I'm not blindfolded, I too get strange visual effects--colours seem vivid, edges fuzzy. In this case though, a whip or other punishment will snap me back a few levels... then I will start the whole process again.

I read a really good article on sub-space recently... if I can find it maybe I can post it here.


I wondered why I abort so early in the game. I thought maybe I don't trust my top, but that's not it.....Lil One; You have to focus on what you really want out of the scene. For some, the joy of submission only comes from truly accepting everything your top will give you. I know that my safeword is only for times where I believe I will suffer physical damage...i.e. a hand or foot going numb, or a gag too tight and cutting my lip, or something like that. If you think of your safeword like that--kind of like the red handle for emergency stop on a subway car--then you will be less tempted to abort your journey.

[Dngnkeeper]

Snip...
Lil One; You have to focus on what you really want out of the scene. For some, the joy of submission only comes from truly accepting everything your top will give you. I know that my safeword is only for times where I believe I will suffer physical damage...i.e. a hand or foot going numb, or a gag too tight and cutting my lip, or something like that. If you think of your safeword like that--kind of like the red handle for emergency stop on a subway car--then you will be less tempted to abort your journey.


Indigo what a great analogy. Something you might want to think about Lil One is including another sub in a scene to act as sort of advocate, coach, cheerleader. I have seen this be usefull in the past with new people where the second sub may do nothing more than hold your hand and watch. Some how their presence heems to ad strength and resolve, maybe focus. Gust a thought.

[csr]

Indigo what a great analogy...Thanks black!

[Dngnkeeper]

Thanks black!

OOps Its seems I was a victum of a blond moment. :(

[csr]

OOps Its seems I was a victum of a blond moment. :( That's okay... it actually took me a while to figure out where the name came from... I must have blonde streaks too. ;-)

[Dngnkeeper]

That's okay... it actually took me a while to figure out where the name came from... I must have blonde streaks too. ;-)

I was going to blame it on a senior monent ;) but still got four months till then and not all of the blond has gone grey. :p

[csr]

senior? pftt! Nobody better be calling me senior at your age! I think you have to wait another decade for your 10% don't you, lol.