Women Shall Submit [Archive]

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Mishka

10-28-2006, 09:46 PM

Mishka

10-28-2006, 09:47 PM

Sorry, I'm a little tired and misspelled "Women" in the title. Can a moderator fix that?

ETA: Thank you.

annie

10-28-2006, 10:03 PM

i have actually had this exact conversation with some women before from my church. (Although they didn't realize BDSM was part of the actual topic.)

In my mind i don't see it as a matter of one having more freedom or respect for women...

i see the D/s as fitting naturally with what script is already stating and believe that if more men would be the "head of their households" as the script says then the women could/would be more submissive naturally as well.

When a man fulfills his biblical duties, as is clearly outlined in the Bible, then it is easier for woman (at least for me) to fulfill her biblical duties. The reason women fight against the concept is because a majority of men want to be the head in name but not in action, words or deeds. Which leaves the woman feeling as though she has to pick up the slack, which in turn creates a muddled mess...

MHO...

cariad

10-29-2006, 12:18 AM

When a man fulfills his biblical duties, as is clearly outlined in the Bible, then it is easier for woman (at least for me) to fulfill her biblical duties. The reason women fight against the concept is because a majority of men want to be the head in name but not in action, words or deeds. Which leaves the woman feeling as though she has to pick up the slack, which in turn creates a muddled mess...

MHO...

I could not agree more with you annie. Will just add that I think men can also find it hard to take on their biblical role since society puts pressure on them to behave differently, in the same way that woman can feel pressure not to submit to their biblical role.

I have discussed this teaching with non-lifestylers, a number of whom seem to really struggle with it; but that is because they do not have the intuitive understanding which we do, that Dominant is not greater or more important than the submissive, but that it is a partnership of equal although different roles.

cariad

Psynymph

10-29-2006, 12:44 AM

i would love to get into this debate, because it's such an awesome topic....

but i would go one for hours......i will certainly be lurking in the shadows though, :D

cariad

10-29-2006, 05:50 AM

Oh, why not at least start Psynymph - I am sure someone will gag you if you go on for too long. Grins.

cariad

lily27

10-29-2006, 08:40 AM

I was asked recently how I could be a Christian and also be into BDSM. How to reconcile the two. (I am sure everyone in this room has had the same discussion at some point.)

My answer was that as long as it was monogamous, I didn't have a problem with the two at once. And pointed out the bible teachings discussed above.

Our current gender roles in mainstream society where men and women are supposedly exactly the same in every single possible way, has only been around for a generation or two. It wasn't that long ago that men really were the head of their households.

It doesn't mean that men are getting off light here either. One of my friend's fifteen year old son started spouting off while I was visiting about how great it would be once he had a family and he could be in charge and do what he wanted. So I started discussing with him all of the responsibilities that came with that role. He had to demonstrate how to be a good Christian, teach his sons to become good men, his daughters how men should treat them, and be a loving and supportive husband. All of a sudden, it wasn't all that appealing anymore.

I think when we remove all of the messages that "society" is telling us, many fall back into these traditional roles. Certainly one of (not the biggest, but one of) the things that drew me to D/s is the fact that you can find such a relationship.

It definitely appears that there are more Dom/sub relationships than there are Domme/sub relationships. I would expect that this is due to our natural gender roles that we aren't supposed to be acknowledging according to mainstream society.

(Disclaimer - in no way am I trying to imply that Dommes and male subs are unnatural, or illigitimate, or anything else bad. I am just making gross generalizations.)

Timberwolf

10-29-2006, 08:45 AM

I find the bible is ralated to D/s in the same way that American and European football both contain the word "football".

lily27

10-29-2006, 09:00 AM

I find the bible is ralated to D/s in the same way that American and European football both contain the word "football".

Care to expand on that a little?

Timberwolf

10-29-2006, 09:11 AM

"Care to expand on that a little?"

They both happen to contain similar elements. It doesn't mean they directly relate to one another. Not to say one can't be Chrsitian and a Lifestyler or anything, of course not. But for me the two simply have very little to do with one another. I also think any attempt to draw a sweeping, mass conclusion about how society to live is doomed to be laced with massive holes, as the concept of men and women's so-called "biblical roles" certainly are.

I also think there's a (very large) amount of romanticising about what the "biblical role" of the woman really was, in the same way that Hollywood romanticises war.

lily27

10-29-2006, 09:21 AM

I don't see what Islaam and BDSM have to do with each other either. But that is probably because I am not a Muslim. I live every day as both a Christian, and a sub....so it is easy to see the overlap and connections between the two.

It's not a perfect fit. But I try to live each so that neither is in conflict with the other. And for me, the non-sexual aspects of D/s fits very well with how I wish to live my Christian life as well.

I certainly am not trying to make any sweeping, mass conclusions, and I don't think anyone else here is either.

Just as BDSM consists of a million different flavours, so does Christianity.

Timberwolf

10-29-2006, 09:29 AM

"I don't see what Islaam and BDSM have to do with each other either. But that is probably because I am not a Muslim. I live every day as both a Christian, and a sub....so it is easy to see the overlap and connections between the two."

I didn't mean to confuse anything with my question to you in IM. I tend to ask most Christians I meet at some point "have you ever read the Quran", just as on another forum I visit that has several Pakistani members I posed the question "Have you ever read the bible". The all-time record still stands at 2 yes, about three dozen no's. BUt that all has nothing to do with the issue at hand, beyond my own curiosity. (I make it pretty well known that I swear allegiance to no particular faith.)

"I certainly am not trying to make any sweeping, mass conclusions, and I don't think anyone else here is either. "

The individuals here don't, but that's generally due to the fact that frankly, we have a high intelligence quotient in our membership.

For me, the issue of religion and being in the lifestyle is a non-sequitor. Mainstream religions (as a collective whole) have so many taboos about sex that I tend to think it's probably best to not use religion as more than the most basic of starting points in terms of exploration related to that subject. In terms of the spiritual end of what sex, and relationships mean... well, I would say much as you did to end your post. To each their own.

annie

10-29-2006, 02:35 PM

Personally, and this is only my opinion, but I think it just isn't society that adds to the pressure of what people think each role should be. I think people add to it as well through their own misunderstanding or interpertation of the Bible.

I attend a Baptist church and we are free to interperate scripture our own way as long as we keep the basic core beliefs. This is both a positive and a negative. The negative being that people interperate what part of scripture they want, don't bother to learn the rest, and then declare that they know all. An example of this would be a man who takes the scripture from Paul and Proverbs 31:10 -31 (Perfect Wife scripture) and expects a perfect wife. Most men that I know who have done this are either not truly the head of their households or they act like they are in some fashion but treat the wife as a doormat and entirely sweep over the "as Christ loves the church" part for their own personal reasons. Personally that is not a true believer but rather someone looking for a reason to have their bad behavior condoned. Sorry... *pushes my soap box back to the corner*

Anyhow... I think it is a combination of society but also a combination of what each person is willing/wants to believe. As some one once told me, it is always easier to be a Christian at church.

On a seperate note though... there are at least a dozen examples of married couples, in all age ranges, at my church, that to me display the how the true nature of Paul's writtings are to be done. The wife is a vital part of the family and is just as important as anyone else. But, they also have a sense of peace that I truly believes comes from the fact that their husbands are being Biblical husbands. I honestly don't believe that any of those relationships are D/s... but the way they function and the harmony between the couple and the family unit in general is just awe inspiring to me....

Sorry... just rambling now! Great thread... thanks for starting it!

Mishka

10-29-2006, 10:11 PM

Great thread... thanks for starting it!
My pleasure.

I walked away from Fundamentalism a few years ago. I still embrace some of the teachings but some I thought I went off the deep end about.

My husband never liked Paul very much, even while a Believer. So he did not press the submission issue with me. He only asked for cooperation and respecting each other's feelings, which isn't too much for any couple to ask for. A few years into our marriage I embraced the teaching. The thing is is that nothing really changed. I matured some, I learned how to better cooperate. Mostly by the examples of my Sisters.

Since the walk-away nothing has changed. We cooperate and try to show respect to each other. My eagerness to please is not because I am trying to please G-d, but because it is my personality, I love to please and serve.

As I mull this over I think it is greatly influenced by culture. The Bible, Quaran, Talmud and Tanach all have wifely submission and husband as head of the home scriptures. They are patriarchal societies. America still is, it was influenced by Christian doctrine. (the political aspect of this is a whole other thread)

However, I'm curious to study matriarchal societies, some Native American tribes have had it, and I'd have to re-read about others. Do the women have more legal rights? More say in their matches and divorces? More control of the money? The women and men grow up into their respective roles because of the example set by their culture. Is there still a sense of submission about certain things/scenarios? Do the women crave a man more dominant in sexuality, perhaps to prove his manlihood or because she simply needs that aspect naturally?

I'm not looking for a definitive answer, the discussion is interesting. Thank you for participating.

Guest 91108

11-08-2006, 11:26 AM

I have to agree with most of what Timberwolf said.
To me religion is for the community .. that's why it's organised. and also a college professor offered " religion is but the fourth layer of government. you have your country, state/province, locale, and community/religion" - i found that had such a ring to it that i dropped from going to seminary for the Lutheran church. I was at a Lutheran College.
Spirituality is for the individual.
I think the bible is telling of how order is created in the family house as a guideline and nothing more.
All of the bible is actually a guideline from past times.
Stops self ... that should be for another thread.

TomOfSweden

11-08-2006, 12:04 PM

the Bible was written in about 300 after christ. I think that says it all. It's not a question of believing, only context

Ropeart

11-08-2006, 04:41 PM

the bible was written by men, as a reaction (with regard to relationships with the opposite sex) to a fear of womankind. Every major religion seeks to subjugate women, (HIS-story,) yet so few women seem to ask why. subjugation of women is one of the main props of all major religions....it has to be, because a weak man can only derive any illusion of strength through his perceived superiority to others, namely, women. Remove that sense of superiority and he is seen for what he is. Preacher after preacher, after making godly pronouncements has this weakness revealed...ah....but this is satan's way of testing him. Well---that's OK then. Oh c'mon????? Send me money or I will personally see to it that you all go to hell??
A woman, by her very nature, is more intensely sexual than any man can hope to be. Because of this she must (in biblical terms) be kept in subjugation. Orgasmic pleasure MUST be a sin because men cannot do it on such an intense scale as a woman can. Being physically weaker, Women compensate by having keener senses, if they didnt then they would have been at a disadvantage in evolutionary terms (bad word there)...a woman carrying a baby in her arms is more likely to be eaten by something with big teeth!! It is this that gives her her famous ''sixth sense''....another fear factor for moronic men. Women are smarter than men, only women in a state of self denial can't admit this...deferring to men because god has told men that it should be so. Odd how messages from god are almost exclusively given to men . Odd how only men seem to wander off into the hills to get the word of god telling them they are superior to women. (Women are too busy defending their offspring to get involved in such nonsense) Odd how witches (female) get burned, ...supervised of course by sadistic priests...odd how adultery is always the woman's fault in primitive societies. (Definition of primitive is any society allowing a rape plea of ''she was asking for it your honour'')---women must dress modestly for fear of inflaming men's uncontrollable lusts....no...this insulting concept is not confined to followers of islam
When a woman steps into the real world of BDSM...as opposed to merely submitting to the ''head of the household'', she becomes free. Free of the trappings of biblical subjugation and the pathetic fear of a vicious sadistic religion and those (men) who profess to know the word of god.. She rises above all that, her BDSM submission is through her own needs and desires, not by trying to live to some primitive lifestyle intended to suit desert nomadic conditions imposed by a bunch of flat-earthers. In true BDSM a Master boosts his submissive,he is the ''air beneath her wings''---ask any woman who has found her true master, one who puts her needs before his own, giving her a sense of her own worth and power, and value. A real Master never orders his submissive to ''do'' anything, or to be obedient. The concept never arises because they become as one, equal.
And yes....I DO write from a lifetime of realtime, beautiful involvement in BDSM.
I can touch my partner on the forehead---and she will climax..instantly. I do this for her pleasure, but to say it is some kind of spiritual thing would be laughable, yet we see power crazy ''pastors'' doing the same trickery on people (edit) who believe that god has touched them through him

TomOfSweden

11-09-2006, 03:04 AM

the bible was written by men, as a reaction (with regard to relationships with the opposite sex) to a fear of womankind. Every major religion seeks to subjugate women,

I seriously believe that the intention of the bible was to give good advice on which morals to follow. In 300 AD women where little more than property and if the Bible hadn't incorporated morals of the time nobody would have read the book(s) or become christian. I don't think it's a question of actively trying to subjugate women more than what was allready happening. For all we know it could have been progressive for it's time. A lot can happen in the subject of ethics in 1700 years.

Don't forget that the Bible was compiled by the order of Emperor Constantin. He wasn't even Christian. Not even a little bit. It's no secret that his goals with compiling the Bible was purely political. The omitted books are called the Apocrypha.

Christian morals have developed a lot. For example S:t Nicholas. Better known today as Father Christmas was famous for two things. Giving presents to the poor and burning down pagan churches. He got famous and connonized for the second act but the focus shifted as Christian ethics evolved.

Yes, religion is one of my favorite subjects.

vampyres{ID}

11-09-2006, 07:46 AM

bonniegirl

11-09-2006, 09:11 AM

You need to take scripture on the whole, you can't pick and choose, in order to confirm your point of view. When Paul says that a women should be in submission to own husband, he meant just that. She is not to take the role of head of household, nor is she to be in any role that makes a man be in subjection to herand if she does, she will have to account for that. As well as the man will account for allowing her to do it.
My problem is in being a Christian (blood bought) and also having a bdsm lifestyle. Sometimes i feel like my flesh takes over, and the desire for my husband, and his pleasure takes priority, it's a difficult balance sometimes, i guess that is where trust and faith come in.

cariad

11-12-2006, 09:27 AM

To me (Yes I am a hard core angry atheist) Being a submissive to man (or woman) is allot better, and grants more freedom then being a submissive to god or the bible, If your a submissive out of fear you have a problem and really shouldn't be doing it (because in the end Its not submission its being abused) The end line of all the people who fail to convert me is Well aren't you afraid that God will condemn you to hell? I chose to serve my master out of love, not fear, I except punishment because I like it, not because I am forced. I will not be cajoled, begged or pleaded to be a slave to a god or man that expects me to fear him/it.

If I choose tomorrow to walk away from this life, no one can stop me, or threaten me with damnation, which is allot more freedom then the bible gave me.

I choose to submit to the man whom I love as an expression of my love and desire for him. As his, I enjoy certain benefits, but that is not why I submit. In the same way I choose to submit to God because I both love and respect Him and I wish to please Him. I neither believe in God, nor submit to Him because I am frightened of who He is, the power He has over me, nor because of the benefits I would loose by not being His.

cariad

TomOfSweden

11-14-2006, 10:10 AM

You need to take scripture on the whole, you can't pick and choose, in order to confirm your point of view.

Says who?

When Paul says that a women should be in submission to own husband, he meant just that. She is not to take the role of head of household, nor is she to be in any role that makes a man be in subjection to herand if she does, she will have to account for that. As well as the man will account for allowing her to do it.

The original Bible was a large collection of stories and poems using the the traditional stories of the Babylonian religion as a base, and building on them. It was extremly fractured and as a good example we have the Evionites/Ebionites. The original Christian sect in Jerusalem and they did not count Paul as an apostle, and still don't. Now their reasons are lost in history, but it is still food for thaught. Omitting the evangelium of Paul would change the meaning of the Bible quite a bit wouldn't it? And these guys were the first Christians ever that had actually met and known Jesus personaly. So they should know, right?

The Egyptian Kopts had their own variety of Christianity which was a lot older than the Roman and which was out-lawed after the first council of Nicea. The Aryans had their own version and their own version of the Christian Bible.

When Emperor Constantin introduced the Bible there was a pretty even split among Christians between the Donatists, (Christians who rejected the new Bible and considered Constantin the Devil) and the non-Donatists who now saw Constantin as the new leader of the Christian Church, which today could seem quite strange since Constantin himself wasn't even Christian. So who knows. Maybe the Donatists were right and the modern Christian Bible is the work of Satan?

My point is that there through-out history have been a wide-variety of Christian Bibles with a wide variety of teachings. Jesus being the son of god, Jesus being an ordinary human and so forth. Just because one Bible won out over the rest, (ie the Versio Vulgata) doesn't add to it's authenticity. There's been lots of great ideas lost in history. Just ask any Jazz-musician. Why not just make your religion your own. Nobody can win the "my religion is more authentic" discussion. I suggest you following your heart and your brain. Don't just submit to what you know out of habit.

My problem is in being a Christian (blood bought) and also having a bdsm lifestyle. Sometimes i feel like my flesh takes over, and the desire for my husband, and his pleasure takes priority, it's a difficult balance sometimes, i guess that is where trust and faith come in.

"Flesh takes over", is that some Christian lingo for being horny? If god has a problem with that I suggest changing religions. Sounds like it's likely to get a bit boring in the long run.

rce

11-30-2006, 08:13 AM

Modern day Biblical research has found that the first books of the Old Testament was most probably written by a woman. She is known by the letter J. This has been determined by comparing the oldest known scriptures to those of known "schools" of scribes in the Jewish society. J wrote in the same manner as a school of only women.

The oldest books of the New Testament were written in the first decades after the crucifiction and resurection of Christ. Paul almost lived in the days of Christ. There are also letters in the New Testament written by people who knew Christ, such as Peter. The Gospels are probably a bit younger, but most scholars say they were written no later than a hundred years after the life of Jesus Christ.

Rhabbi

02-19-2007, 04:51 PM

kitten,

We have discussed this a bit in private, but since I just discovered this thread here I thought I would make my point in public.

BDSM is biblical in the sense od the D/s aspect of the lifestyle. But the real key of making it work is for the man to fulfill his duty first.

Let me quote here:

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, So that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, That He might present the church to Himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such things [that she might be holy and faultless]. Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members (parts) of His body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church. However, let each man of you [without exception] love his wife as [being in a sense] his very own self; and let the wife see that she respects and reverences her husband [that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates, and esteems him; and that she defers to him, praises him, and loves and admires him exceedingly]. (Eph 5:21-31 AMP)

Please note that a women is required to submit to her husband, but the husband is also required to submit to her and to Christ. The love that the husband feels fro Jesus enables him to submit, obey, and serve.

He thus is able to present his wife to himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinke. He sees her as holy and faultless. I do not know about anybody else, but I think that the man has the greatest challnge here. He must love his wife, be able to see her faults to help her correct them, yet present her to himself without those faults.

Would this make it easier for a wife to submit? I believe so. In fact, if it does not there is something seriously wrong with her.

Does this apply in the BDSM life? Of course. The marvelous thing about truth is that it always applies. There are those who do not understand the life that would say that it is condemned by Jehovah, but I would point out that as londg as it happens in the sanctity of marraige, and is mutual, it is blessed by Him.

annie

06-07-2007, 04:36 AM

Think i am going to push this thread back to the top... since there is another discussion in the General section which in some ways goes along with this... and we have a lot of new members...

Anyone else have a comment? Thought? i would love to hear it!

MajesticFae

06-07-2007, 05:11 AM

I don't really think of BDSM and Christianity in the same thought. They share a few common elements, but for me Christianity is what I make of it and not a set of rules that are unbendable/unbreakable. I don't attend church regularly and I've never fully read the bible. I think it was written during a time where some of the issues addressed do not apply to today's standards, thus modifications need to be made.

Sex was very taboo in those times and I don't really think that applies today, for one. Thus, I don't think BDSM if offensive to God considering there are some priests who walk around beating themselves. (Atleast, I'm pretty sure that's Christianity... I just remember seeing it on the history channel somewhere... forgive me if I'm wrong)

I'm sure it's very possible to live by the bible completely and 100% and be completely devout and all that jazz and still live a BDSM life style. It might take some reworking of the ideals of BDSM to fit within the Christian mold, but I do not doubt it's possible.

As for the bible stating that women are naturally subservient to men, I agree. However, I think it was developed in a patriarchal time when women were no more than property as Mishka said. Times have changed and this is another thing that I think needs to be able to bend. I also wonder what it's like in matriarchal societies with regards to subservience.

Just my two cents.

TomOfSweden

06-07-2007, 05:11 AM

I read a hillarious quote from Steven Weinberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg) regarding this. I can't recall it verbatim but what he said was something like this:

"If you claim to be a Christian, you either follow the Bible to the letter or you quickly run into trouble. If you use your own judgement and interpret the Bible from modern moral values then what's the point of having the religion. Aren't you just using your own morality to make judgements about what is relgion and ignoring the Bible. If we aren't using the religion as a guide do we really belong to the religion".

Funny guy. Arguably nobody today follows the Bible to the letter, and with this reasoning there are no Christians today. Just people using the title just like people wear a hat or picks a pretty but nonsensicle title or name. It becomes devoid of meaning.

jeanne

06-07-2007, 06:25 AM

I don't consider myself Christian, rather just spiritual. My sexuality comes from God - He made me this way. If I don't honor myself, including my sexuality, I'm dishonoring God and ignoring His gifts to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, there is a direct connection.

Guest91408

06-07-2007, 06:36 AM

DELETED. Newbie bites her tongue. HARD.

*stays well clear and orders DarkSister to keep out too*

nk_lion

06-07-2007, 09:55 AM

Sex in my religion is encouraged, and considered in a sense holy. The restrictions are no pre-maritial sex and it has to be monogamous. So bdsm in not way conflicts with my beliefs.

Rhabbi

06-07-2007, 10:17 AM

isabeau6

06-08-2007, 10:11 AM

There are a few groups that I belong to that encourage BDSM and Christianity. I would be gald to share links with anyone that wants them, and if there is enough interest I will even post them. Submiossion is a beautiful thing, and I also believe it to be Scriptual.

i would be very interested in those links thank you Rhabbi..

submit to one's husband always i felt meant that you submitted to him sexually, no matter how much it might hurt..i grew up with a Pastor who followed the teachings of Paul..never married, considering chastity next to Godliness and purity...i believe Paul hadn't a clue as to what he was talking about since he never was married..

i would gladly submit to the right man..i have never submitted to my husband, he wouldn't wish it and neither would i to be honest..ours just was never that type of relationship...

i used to take the Bible as literal truth...i have changed a bit..i used to think masturbation was a sin..but where in the Bible does it mention that? these things were pointed out to me by someone..i always thought it was mentioned in the Bible..i have faith..i no longer believe in organized religion..my faith has kept me sane..

isabeau6

Jim

06-08-2007, 04:56 PM

seems like you have nailed it with your comments congrats ...

isabeau6

06-09-2007, 04:44 AM

seems like you have nailed it with your comments congrats ...

me??????? wow..i actually made some sense...wow...thanks

isabeau :eek:

Rhabbi

06-09-2007, 11:24 AM

There are actually alomost as many Christian BDSM sites as regular ones, here are a few.

www.sexinchrist.com/submission.html
www.insolitology.com/rloddities/christianity.htm
www.christiansandbdsm.com

The last one is the best resource.

TomOfSweden

06-10-2007, 03:35 AM

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

tessa

06-10-2007, 05:59 AM

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

Oh, Tom. I can always count on you for a smile. Thank you!

And because I'm in that smiling mood...~lil' hug~

tessa :wave:

Rhabbi

06-10-2007, 12:42 PM

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

Ahh, funny you should ask that Tom. If you take the word head to mean source, as in the head of a river, there is actually no conflict in Women being dominant.

nia25

08-30-2007, 05:13 AM

I hope no one minds if I post... I noticed no one has for a couple of months but I just read the thread and was very interested. I can see where they are connected. It makes sense to me, and explains why more than likely we want to try it. I am a Christian. By calling myself a Christian I am in no way claiming to be perfect. Nor have I ever seen in the Bible that God wants us to be perfect. He wants us to follow Him, but He also knows we are human. I was thinking about this situation the other night, and actually prayed about it. My husband and I want to experiment in the BDSM lifestyle, but I will not compromise my beliefs. I thought about this for quite sometime. No where (at least that I have seen, if I am wrong then I am sorry) in The Bible that I have seen does it say that a husband and wife should not enjoy sex or an orgasm. As many of you have said, as long as it is only between husband and wife there is no reason this is against God, or the Bible. And if I were to walk away from my religion right now, I would still go to heaven because I am saved. I know there are many people who do not share these views, but this is how I feel.

Rhabbi

08-30-2007, 08:58 AM

I received this study on obedience through my Christian group, and, sense this thread was recently bumped, thought I would post it here. It is primarily aimed at obedience of children to parents, but the application can be extended to any relationship that requires obedience.

Character Journal No.2

Obedience vs. Willfulness

Bible Verses Related to Obedience

Spend an evening (or several) looking at just one of these verses at a time. Don't forget to ask your children the questions: Who? What? Where? Why? When? and How? Discuss with your family what each verse or story teaches about the character quality.

* 1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.
* Proverbs 30:17 The eye [that] mocketh at [his] father, and despiseth to obey [his] mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. {the valley: or, the brook}
* Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
* Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
* 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; {imaginations: or, reasonings}
* Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
* Colossians 3:20 Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
* Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
* Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
* Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
* Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you. {have...: or, guide}

Bible Stories

* The story of David who's obedience to his father (1 Samuel 17) led to his victory over Goliath. Had David not obeyed the instructions of his father, he would have missed this significant opportunity to defeat the enemies of God.
* The story of Naaman in 2 Kings chapter 5

Character Definitions

* Submission to the restraint or commands of authority. (Dictionary Definition)
* Freedom to be creative under the protection of divinely-appointed authority. (Operational Definition)
* Learning the importance of limitations and the meaning of the word "no." Responding to the wishes of God, parents, and others in authority. Yielding the right to have the final decision. (Operational Definition)

Projects

* Can you report to your children that you fully obeyed your parents or that you have asked them to forgive you for not obeying?
* Does your family see you making sacrifices to obey God?
* Do you quickly obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit?
* Have your children seen you violate traffic laws?

Ten Ways To Test Your Obedience

FIRST TEST: Do you ask for reasons when your request is turned down?
OBEDIENCE IS ACCEPTING "NO" AS A FINAL ANSWER. (No questions, no appeals, no discussions, no nothing!!!)
When you make a request, and are told "no,' it would be an act of disobedience to discuss the matter any further. Simply thank your authority for considering the request, and drop the subject. Trust God to work out any change of heart. If you ask for reasons, you are assuming that your authority can clearly and fully explain himself. Often he will have cautions that he cannot immediately explain based on past experiences, conflicting circumstances, the concerns of others, or direction from the Lord. Any reasons he gives you are usually incomplete; thus, when you answer his objections, he still will not be convinced, and an argument will usually result.

SECOND TEST: Do you stop what you are doing when given instructions?
OBEDIENCE IS ACTING ON COMMANDS IMMEDIATELY. (No delays, no objections, no reasons like, "Let me finish this first.")
Delayed obedience is disobedience. When your authority asks you to do something, stop what you are doing immediately, and carry out what you were told to do. If you are working on a project that will be damaged if not finished, make your authority aware of this, and let him decide which is the greater priority.

THIRD TEST: Do you smile when you are told to do something?
OBEDIENCE IS CHEERFULLY RESPONDING TO REQUESTS. (No frowns, no murmurs, no groans, no rolling of your eyes.)
A smile communicates that you are pleased to carry out the wishes of your authorities. The lack of a smile implies that you do not want to do a job. A frown or any murmuring indicates that you are inwardly rebelling against your authorities, and that you are complying only because you have no alternative.

FOURTH TEST: Do you ever give reasons why you cannot do a job?
OBEDIENCE IS FINDING WAYS TO OVERCOME OBSTACLES. (No negative thinking, no failure to be creative, no "I can't." )
When told to do a job, it is normal to think of obstacles that are in your way, but do not voice them. Ask yourself, "How can I overcome these obstacles?" Ask God for wisdom. A desire to obey motivates creativity. Where there is a will, there is a way.

FIFTH TEST: Have you ever had to be reminded to do little tasks?
OBEDIENCE IS DOING LITTLE COMMANDS AS WELL AS BIG ONES. (No excuses, no frustrations, no reactions, no justifications.)
Do you need to be reminded to wipe your feet, pick up your clothes, make your bed, brush your teeth, wash the dishes, or carry out garbage? A person who neglects little commands will usually overlook important details which make the difference between success and failure in a project or in life. He will also tend to be careless in his thinking, personal disciplines, neatness, speech, or actions. The principle that Jesus gave is very true: "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much." (Luke 16:10) On the other hand, he that is unfaithful in little, will be unfaithful in much.

SIXTH TEST: Do you ever have to re-do a job you did the wrong way?
OBEDIENCE IS FOLLOWING ALL THE ORDERS THE FIRST TIME. (No assuming, no guessing, no forgetting, no self-will.)
Before carrying out a task, an obedient person will make sure that he has all the information on how to do it. He will know what questions to ask in order to clarify instructions, and he will know at what points. to check back with his authority to make sure he is doing the job the right way. Disobedience is adding your own will or ideas to a job when you are not sure they are in harmony with the precise instructions of your authority.

SEVENTH TEST: Do you ever think that a job is "stupid?"
OBEDIENCE IS DOING JOBS AND UNDERSTANDING THEM LATER. (No mocking, no whining, no questioning, no evaluating.)
A former Marine recalled the days when he went through boot camp. He was ordered to dig a hole six-feet-square. After completing the task, he was told to fill it back up, and then start another one. Later he learned that the purpose of those jobs was to teach him to obey even without explanation. His life would depend on it. In battle, he would not always be given the reasons behind a command, but if he failed to obey, his life would be jeopardised, as well as the lives of those around him.

EIGHTH TEST: Do you ever ask one parent after the other said, "No?"
OBEDIENCE IS NOT PUTTING ONE AUTHORITY AGAINST ANOTHER. (No scheming, no withholding important facts, no repeat requests.)
When one parent tells you, "No," and you ask the other parent the same question, you may get your way, but it is sure to damage the relationship between your parents and demonstrate the fact that you are disobedient. God instructs us that in a multitude of counsellors there is safety. (See Proverbs 11:14) By rejecting the counsel of one authority, you expose yourself to the destruction that comes with rebellion.

NINTH TEST: Do you ever plan in recreation after finishing chores?
OBEDIENCE IS PUTTING ALL YOUR ENERGIES INTO A TASK. (No half-hearted effort, no holding back energy, no day-dreaming.)
God instructs us to put our whole heart and soul into whatever we are doing. (See Colossians 3:23) This means that we will have little energy left after the job is finished. Instead of being distracted by thoughts of recreation, there would be the anticipation of rest. If the same energy that an athlete gives to his training would be expended in fulfilling a job, the one who assigned the job would be amazed with the spirit of obedience.

TENTH TEST: Do you obey whatever you are told to do?
OBEDIENCE IS BASED ON WHAT GOD SAYS IS TRUE AND RIGHT. (No blind obedience, no surrender of personal responsibilities.)
Even if an authority would tell you to do something that the Bible clearly prohibits, you are not to do it. Disobedience is violating any of God's laws; regardless of what others may tell you. If an authority should ask you to do something that you know is against God's Word, you must respectfully explain that you are ultimately under God's authority, and therefore you must obey God rather than man.

Bible Verses to Memorise as a Family

* 1 Samuel 15:22
* Ephesians 6:1
* 1 Peter 2:13-14

Other Helpful Material

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

GOD HAS ORDAINED 4 BASIC STRUCTURES OF AUTHORITY

1. The Family
The family was the very first authority structure that God ever established, and it is foundational to all other structures of authority. Strong families will produce strong churches and nations. Weak families will produce weak churches and weak nations. Scripture makes it very clear that the husband is under the direct authority of God...The wife is under the authority of the husband...And the children are under the authority of their parents. This is the chain-of-command which God has established within the family. If this chain is broken or perverted in any way, if the husband resigns the spiritual leadership of the family to his wife, if the children are undisciplined and allowed to do whatever they want, then there will be serious consequences in the lives of that family.

2. The Government
Submission to the entire structure of government from the leader of our country, all the way down to the local police officers is commanded in Scripture. 1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

3. The Church
God has provided the leadership within a properly functioning local church to be responsible for the spiritual care and welfare of each member. Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

4. Our Employers
Paul, in Ephesians 6:5, writes, "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ."

Is there ever a situation when we should disobey those in authority over us? Acts 4:19-20 infers that if we are confronted with a situation and are asked by our authorities to violate a Biblical command or principle, then we must obey God rather than man.

WHY WE SHOULD OBEY OUR GOD ORDAINED AUTHORITIES

1. For our protection
God has designed authority to function like an umbrella of protection. As long as we remain under God-given authority, nothing can happen to us that God does not design for our ultimate good and His ultimate glory. But the moment we challenge and disobey our authority, we move out from underneath that umbrella of protection and expose ourselves to the destructive forces of satan. That's why Scripture says that "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Samuel 15:23). A person who is involved in witchcraft has given himself over to Satan and his power. Exactly the same thing happens the moment you step outside that umbrella of protection - you expose yourself to the destructive forces of Satan. Satan's strategy is to get us outside that umbrella of protection because he knows he can't harm us as long as we remain under our God-given authority.

2. For direction
The most essential means of finding God's will (second only to the Word of God) is checking with our authorities, because God directs through your authority. Now that's radical teaching for our society! Parents are often the last on the list that our young people come to for advice, and that's tragic. This explains why so many Christian young people today are constantly making wrong decisions and are just drifting through life with no vital spiritual purpose for living. It's only as we submit to the authority of those God has placed over us - parents, government, employer, leadership in the local church - that we can benefit from God's protection and direction.

3. For character development
Every single one of us has a multitude of character deficiencies that need to be perfected. Authorities are the tools in God's hands that He uses to chip away at the rough edges of our character and to transform us into the image of Jesus Christ (Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.). If we react and resist and get out from under the reproofs and authority of our parents, God only has to raise up new "tools" to continue the job. While Bill Gothard was working with inner-city gangs, many teen-agers would say in disgust, "I'm sick and tired of taking orders from my parents!" He would ask what they're planning to do about it, and they would reply, "I'm going to join the service!" They usually chose the marines!

OBEDIENCE-DISOBEDIENCE

(A) OBEDIENCE
(1) To God, the duty of
Whole-hearted Required # De 26:16 32:46
The Price of Success # Jos 1:8
Better than Sacrifice # 1Sa 15:22 Jer 7:23
Secures Entrance into God's Kingdom # Mt 7:21 Lu 8:21
The Imperative Duty of Life # Ac 5:29
(2) Examples of
Noah # Ge 6:22
Abraham # Ge 12:4 22:2,3
Bezaleel # Ex 36:1 Nu 9:23
Joshua # Jos 11:15
Hezekiah # 2Ki 18:6 Ezr 7:23 Ps 27:8
Joseph and Mary # Lu 2:39 Ac 16:10
Paul # Ac 26:19 Ro 16:19
Christ # Heb 5:8
(3) Blessings Promised for # Ex 19:5 De 4:30 5:29 7:12 28:1 1Ki 3:14 Job 36:11 Zec 3:7 # Jas 1:25 1Jo 3:22 Re 22:14
(4) Christ's Example of # Joh 14:31 15:10 Ro 5:19 Heb 5:8 10:9
(B) CHRIST'S WORDS CONCERNING OBEDIENCE
The Basal Rock of Character # Mt 7:24
Essential to Membership in God's Family # Mt 12:50
The Key to Spiritual Knowledge # Joh 7:17
Secures the Blessing of Divine Fellowship # Joh 14:23 1Jo 2:17
(C) OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, examples of # Mt 4:20 7:24 9:9 21:6 26:19 Lu 5:5 6:47 # Joh 2:7 11:29 14:21 21:6
(D) DISOBEDIENCE
(1) Penalty for # De 11:28 28:15 1Sa 12:15 28:18 1Ki 13:21 Jer 12:17 # Eph 5:6 2Th 1:8 1Ti 1:9 Heb 2:2,3
(2) Examples of # Ge 3:11 19:26 Le 10:1 Nu 20:11 Jos 7:1 1Sa 13:13 # Jon 1:3 Zep 3:2

OBEDIENCE to God

1) Commanded # De 13:4

2) Without faith, is impossible # Heb 11:6

3) INCLUDES
3a) Obeying his voice # Ex 19:5 Jer 7:23
3b) Obeying his law # De 11:27 Isa 42:24
3c) Obeying Christ # Ex 23:21 2Co 10:5
3d) Obeying the gospel # Ro 1:5 6:17 10:16,17
3e) Keeping his commandments # Ec 12:13
3f) Submission to higher powers # Ro 13:1

4) Better than sacrifice # 1Sa 15:22

5) Justification obtained by that of Christ # Ro 5:19

6) Christ, an example of # Mt 3:15 Joh 15:20 Php 2:5-8 Heb 5:8

7) Angels engaged in # Ps 103:20

8) A characteristic of saints # 1Pe 1:14

9) Saints elected to # 1Pe 1:2

10) Obligations to # Ac 4:19,20 5:29

11) Exhortations to # Jer 26:13 38:20

12) SHOULD BE
12a) From the heart # De 11:13 Ro 6:17
12b) With willingness # Ps 18:44 Isa 1:19
12c) Unreserved # Jos 22:2,3
12d) Undeviating # De 28:14
12e) Constant # Php 2:12

13) Resolve upon # Ex 24:7 Jos 24:24

14) Confess your failure in # Da 9:10

15) Prepare the heart for # 1Sa 7:3 Ezr 7:10

16) Pray to be taught # Ps 119:35 143:10

17) Promises to # Ex 23:22 1Sa 12:14 Isa 1:19 Jer 7:23

18) To be universal in the latter days # Da 7:27

19) Blessedness of # De 11:27 28:1-13 Lu 11:28 Jas 1:25

20) The wicked refuse # Ex 5:2 Ne 9:17

21) Punishment of refusing # De 11:28 28:15-68 Jos 5:6 Isa 1:20

22) Exemplified
22a) Noah # Ge 6:22
22b) Abram # Ge 12:1-4 Heb 11:8 Ge 22:3,12
22c) Israelites # Ex 12:28 24:7
22d) Caleb &c # Nu 32:12
22e) Asa # 1Ki 15:11
22f) Elijah # 1Ki 17:5
22g) Hezekiah # 2Ki 18:6
22h) Josiah # 2Ki 22:2
22i) David # Ps 119:106
22j) Zerubbabel # Hag 1:12
22k) Joseph # Mt 1:24
22l) Wise men # Mt 2:12
22m) Zacharias &c # Lu 1:6
22n) Paul # Ac 26:19
22o) Saints of Rome # Ro 16:19

A Word to the Dads

How to Pray a Hedge of Protection around Your Family

Christian families are under increasing attack. Our children especially are prime targets for the enemy. For this reason, it is absolutely essential that the husband assumes his God-given role as spiritual leader in the home in order to provide spiritual protection for his wife and family. This principle is graphically illustrated in Mat 12:29 - [How else] can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

What the Lord is saying is this: if you want to take and plunder the possessions of a strong man, then the first thing you need to do is to bind him so that he is powerless to interfere. If he is bound, you are then at liberty to plunder all that is under his jurisdiction. Now I want to apply this to the Christian home. If Satan wants to destroy a Christian marriage or family, where does he begin? He first has to bind the strong man - the husband and father. Because the husband and father provides a spiritual umbrella of protection for his family. That umbrella protects his family from the destructive forces of Satan. But if there are areas of weakness in the life of that husband and father, this provides Satan with the opportunity to attack those that are under his authority. The word "goods" is a translation of the Greek word skeuos and is defined in Strong's Concordance as "a vessel [specially a wife as contributing to the usefulness of her husband]."

Do you realise that the majority of husbands and fathers in our churches today are in bondage to materialism, pornography, and other destructive habits? If a husband and father fails to fulfil his role of spiritual leader...If he is more interested in temporal things than eternal things...If he is not diligent in his walk with the Lord, then to the same extent that he is in bondage, Satan has the liberty to attack the members of his family.

One of the most effective ways to protect your family is for the husband to pray a daily hedge of protection. One wise father realised the need of Godly protection for his family. Because of this Godly father, the whole family was safe from Satan’s attacks against them. That father’s name was Job and in Job 1:1, Scripture reveals four basic qualifications which resulted in a special divine protection for his family. Satan called it a "hedge."

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Let’s look at each of these four qualifications which resulted in a special divine protection for Job and his family.

First, it says that Job was PERFECT

The word actually means moral purity. It means to be complete, undefiled, or morally clean. For example, whenever a husband lacks discipline in moral areas by looking at other women, he gives Satan opportunity to attack his family, and he greatly damages the spirit of his marriage. One wife I heard testify said that every time her husband looked at another woman, it was as though emotionally someone had plunged a dagger into her heart and twisted it around. It's that devastating. That's why Jesus said that even looking after a woman is the same as committing the act of adultery with her. Our wives feel the same emotions when they know we are looking after other women as we would if we discovered that they had been unfaithful.

For the sake of our own personal purity and for the sake of our marriage, it is essential that we as husbands make a covenant with our eyes. In Job 31:1, Job said, "I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?" Job knew that sin begins in the heart. He knew that he was just as guilty of God's punishment for looking at a woman lustfully as for committing adultery with her. And so he purposed to guard himself by making a pact with his eyes not to gaze at a woman who might tempt him.

David was a man after God's own heart, but he dropped his guard and opened a leak in his umbrella of protection, and in a moment of compromise he was involved in immorality, and from that moment onward his life took a downward spiral. If you're familiar with the story you'll know that that one single act led to a host of further sins - including murder - and to a multitude of consequences that not only affected his own life but also the lives of his children and his children's children. Make no mistake about it, sin always has its consequences. David repented of his sin - he truly was sorry, and he received forgiveness, but the consequences of that one act haunted him for the rest of his life. Nathan the prophet confronted David and told him because of his sin of murder his own children would die by the sword; because of his sin of adultery his wives would be taken by other men; and because he caused God’s name to be blasphemed among the gentiles, the child Bathsheba conceived would die. Men, if we continue to flirt with our passions, we may end up, like David, paying a very high price.

Secondly, it says that Job was UPRIGHT

The Hebrew word means to be straight or just. It refers to a person’s integrity.

A man who was teaching a children’s Sunday school class asked his students, "Why do people say that I’m a Christian?" One little boy responded, "Because they don’t know you!"

Most Christian today have no testimony because little integrity. Many Christians compromise in business and think nothing about it. Many Christian today would copy a musical CD or tape or computer program that has been copyrighted and excuse it by saying, "Everyone else is doing it." We need to understand that right is always right even if no one else is doing it and wrong is always wrong even if everyone else is doing it. Many Christian ignore the speed limits on the highways as though it's something that doesn't matter. It does matter, if you're concerned about your integrity.

The goal for every Christian husband and father should be to develop - and to teach our children to develop and maintain - a clear conscience before God and man.

In 1 Tim 1:9, Paul compares a clear conscience for a Christian to a weapon for a soldier. What a weapon is to a soldier, a clear conscience is to the Christian. If a soldier looses his weapon he is ineffective, unprepared for battle, and will most likely be defeated in conflict. The Christian who doesn't have a clear conscience will be ineffective in his witness for Christ, unprepared for spiritual conflict, and will most likely live a defeated Christian life. A good conscience is one that allows me to look every person in the eye knowing that not one of them can point a finger at me and say, "You wronged me and you never tried to make it right."

Satan will flood your mind with all sorts of reasons why you shouldn't clear your conscience. He'll help you rationalise every situation away. But remember, a failure to clear our conscience will give ground in our life to Satan giving him opportunity to attack our family, and will produce conflicts, bitterness and guilt. It will affect our decisions, and our relationships with others, but most importantly it will affect our relationship with God. Psalm 66:18 says, "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me." Prv 28:13: "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

Thirdly, it says that Job FEARED GOD

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

Wisdom starts with the awareness that I am in the presence of a holy, just, and almighty God, and that every thought, word, action, and deed is open before Him and is being judged by Him. That is going to have a profound impact upon how you live!

The greatest influence for Jesus Christ upon my own life was my Godly father. Everyday I was confronted with the reality of his commitment to Jesus Christ in our home. You see the home is where you discover the reality of a person’s spirituality. If you want to see how an animal really behaves, you don't go to the zoo or circus where they are on display or perform, you go to it's natural habitat - it's day by day environment.If you want to find out what a Christian is really like, where do you go? You don't go to the Church! No, you must go to the home. If you want to find out the sincerity of a man's commitment to Jesus Christ and to following Biblical principles, you don't ask his Pastor or Church leaders, you need to ask his wife and children. I am convinced that the reality of a person's spirituality is not found in the church, but in the home.And I am becoming increasingly disturbed at what I see happening in the homes of Christians. If our Christianity is going to be effective in reaching a lost world for Jesus Christ, then it must first prove itself in the Christian home.Do your children or grandchildren, see the reality of your spirituality in the home? Do they see you behave one way in the church and another way in the home? Your children - more than any others - will resent your hypocrisy and inconsistencies and most likely reject the God you claim to be serving!

Finally, it says that Job ESCHEWED EVIL

The word actually means to "hate" evil, to decline or avoid at all costs.

Whenever our goal as believers is to serve God and to live lives of wholeness and purity before Christ, there comes a day in our walk with the Lord when we need to do an inventory check and get rid of things in our homes and lives that are not God-honouring and do not belong.

"Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction" (Deuteronomy 7:26).

There are many things that we as Christian's unsuspectingly bring into our homes that are causing destruction in our families. A number of years ago, after realising implications of Deut 7:26, Audrey and I did some housecleaning. We purposed to rid our home of anything and everything that was not God-honouring and did not belong.

We went around our home from room to room and collected records, tapes, magazines and books. The hardest thing for me to get rid of was the TV. But like a trojan horse it had come into our home and was constantly bombarding us with humanistic ideas, blasphemy and immorality. Now I'm not suggesting everyone needs to get rid of their TV, but I am suggesting that everyone needs to learn to control it because of the consequences it will have not only in your life but in lives of your children.....

I wonder Christian husband/father, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are perfect, that you are morally pure. And if there is any moral impurity in your life, would you ask God to forgive you and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are upright, that you have a clear conscience. And if there is anyone whom you know you have offended, would you ask God to forgive you, would you purpose to ask their forgiveness and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are a man that fears God. Do your children or grandchildren, see the reality of your spirituality in the home? Do they see you behave one way in the church and another way in the home? If there have been inconsistencies or double standards, would you ask God to forgive you and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you hate evil. If there are things in your home that should not be there, would you ask God to forgive you, would you purpose to get rid of them, and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

Sources used for compiling this mailing:

* The Online Bible
* The Basic Seminar Textbook

Flaming_Redhead

08-30-2007, 11:26 AM

The Apostle Paul in the Christian Bible was rather adamant about women submitting to their husbands, and being under the headship of their fathers before they marry.

In addition to the wife's complete submission to the spiritual head of the home, he is also to love her "as Christ loves the Church" (church being body of believers in Jesus as the Messiah)

I am wondering if this is comparible to the BDSM lifestyle. Do you see it that way? Or do you see that not all women are being commanded to be submissives? That women in this role are choosing it and therefore it is totally other?

Women have been rebelling against these scriptures for years, wanting (demanding) more control over their lives and spirituality. Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Do you see the D/s lifestyle having more freedom and respect for the woman than these scriptures?

*I realize submissives can be both men and women, but the Bible clearly does not put man under woman nor does it acknowledge transgenders, so it's not applicable to my question. Though feel free to give your thoughts on this.

I can see some definite similarities in certain aspects of the BDSM lifestyle. However, the lifestyle was not modeled after biblical teachings. It was actually started by homosexual veterans of WWII who enjoyed the strict military protocol. As lesbians, bisexuals and heterosexuals became involved in the scene, the Old Guard's strict rules and exclusivity were replaced by a more casual and relaxed community where couples are free to practice their own style. Interestingly enough, though, when I first started investigating BDSM, I felt that I had a higher chance of success for finding the type of man I was looking for, one suitable to be the head of the household, in this community rather than just dating random guys in the vanilla world.

God gave everyone free will, including women, so submission is always a choice. Women have been rebelling since the Garden of Eden. When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, Adam was with her. Instead of protecting her from the serpent and stopping her from disobeying, he followed her example and ate some, too. Then, he blamed it on her instead of taking responsibility. God cursed the woman, saying "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam, he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat of it," cursed is the ground because of you."

I don't see the D/s lifestyle as having more freedom and respect than scripture. I see that more people in the lifestyle are practicing scripture, whether consciously or not, than vanilla people. I love the verse Rhabbi posted, Ephesians 5:22-33. I also like this one from the Old Testament. Does this sound like a woman oppressed?

"A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls. She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all." Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate." Proverbs 31:10-31

As far as submissive men and scripture, whatever a man and his wife do in the bedroom is between them. Their bodies belong to each other. "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife." 1 Corinthians 7:3-4

Rhabbi

08-31-2007, 08:39 AM

Excellant post Red. Did you know thare are groups that are devoted to the lifestyle you are looking to live? Look for Traditional Marraige, Head of Houshpld, and Loviving Domestic Discipline on Yahoo and Google.

Flaming_Redhead

09-04-2007, 05:33 PM

No, Rhabbi, I did not know that.

Hime

09-04-2007, 08:57 PM

I don't see it as the same thing at all. The Bible proscribes roles based on gender, and to me whether a person is Submissive or Dominant has nothing to do with their gender. I do not believe that women are "naturally" more submissive than men, and it actually makes me kind of mad when people suggest that. As Red mentioned, D/s was originally a community of gay men, meaning that a large number of them had to be submissive. We currently live in a world where male domination is considered more acceptable, meaning that fewer women are free to explore their dominant sides.

I don't submit to my husband because I'm a woman, or because I'm his wife. I do because it is what satisfies me as an individual. I'd have the same reaction to someone saying that I liked certain musicians or voted a certain way because I'm a woman -- I feel that that philosophy takes away from the individual agency that many of us have had to fight for over the years.

Rhabbi

09-05-2007, 08:01 AM

MissElizabeth87

06-23-2008, 08:10 PM

I am a Christian, as well as a *most of the time* Domme. I have actually been trying to work this issue out for myself. But so far, for me, my "relgion" is my personal faith. I believe the big things (Jesus Christ is the son of God, saved me from my sins, etc)... and I try to have good morals in my actions and thoughts. I don't think my faith is or ever was about following a bunch of RULES though... wasn't Christ supposed to come and save us from the rule system of Judaism? it is about a relationship. And I can make sure my relationship with my lil boy toy doesn't get in the way of my relationship with my creator.

But to answer someone who said that BDSM and Faith is unrelated, to someone who truly lives out their life with their faith, every aspect of their life is connected with their faith... BDSM lifestyle included.

TomOfSweden

06-24-2008, 02:50 AM

But to answer someone who said that BDSM and Faith is unrelated, to someone who truly lives out their life with their faith, every aspect of their life is connected with their faith... BDSM lifestyle included.

This depends on what is meant with "unrelated". Faith could be what ever you do, not what you want to do. I would argue that what your heart is telling you what to do, is your actual faith. So then as far as being a guide for your actions it is unrelated.

I often get the feeling that in religious discussions "faith" is often used to denote an ideal to be aimed at rather than the actual belief. As if faith is more a discussion regarding what is morally right according to "the rules" rather than what you actually believe is morally right.

Yes, every aspect of your life is connected with your faith. But that's not a question of opinion, that's simply a reality. You cannot chose not to be ruled by your faith, no matter how non-religious you might or might not be. "Faith" isn't a religious word. It's many times deeper than that. Religious discussions just include it a lot due to the nature of religion.

MissElizabeth87

06-25-2008, 12:14 AM

You're right, TomofSweden. I guess I should've made that comment a bit more personal.

To ME, my faith is a part of everything in my life. I'm not exactly a very religious person, as I said, I believe my "religion" as described in the Gospels was intended to be about a relationship rather than rules...It was churches that made it about rules. But it means that my relationship with God, as I see it, is a part of everything in my life. Honestly, in a similar way to the way my relationship with my guy is a part of everything in my life. I don't ... pigeon hole things. I mean, I'm not going to get into discussions about my sex life at work, but the people I work with know that I am with my guy. That's the best way I can explain it, I guess.

hopperboo

07-19-2008, 01:24 AM

To me (Yes I am a hard core angry atheist) Being a submissive to man (or woman) is allot better, and grants more freedom then being a submissive to god or the bible, If your a submissive out of fear you have a problem and really shouldn't be doing it (because in the end Its not submission its being abused) The end line of all the people who fail to convert me is Well aren't you afraid that God will condemn you to hell? I chose to serve my master out of love, not fear, I except punishment because I like it, not because I am forced. I will not be cajoled, begged or pleaded to be a slave to a god or man that expects me to fear him/it.

If I choose tomorrow to walk away from this life, no one can stop me, or threaten me with damnation, which is allot more freedom then the bible gave me.

I do not believe the Bible preaches fear as the basis to being submissive to God. Especially in the New Testament. It's about accepting responsibility as a human and serving the One who loves us. Fearing to a point? Yes. Even in a D/s a person as fear of the Dominant. It's respecting that power and knowing what can happen if you don't act accordingly.

Back to the topic: I agree with the first post here, that D/s is a natural beginning and yes, I believe the Bible supports that. However, I don't think it's the point of the male being always in "control," I think it's that men and women balance each other out differently in a healthy way. (i.e. God took bone from Adam's rib to symbolize an equal relationship...if he had taken bone from Adam's toe it would have symbolized the female always being submissive, likewise if bone had been taken from Adam's toe which would have symbolized female superiority).

Virulent

07-19-2008, 07:46 AM

I do not believe the Bible preaches fear as the basis to being submissive to God. Especially in the New Testament.

Have you read the Bible or New Testament?

"Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men...

Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared.

You [O God] are resplendent with light... You alone are to be feared.

...Do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"To you my friends I say: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. I will tell you whom to fear; fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

My personal favorite:

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That's fun to shout at cunts who went to Catholic school as you're flogging them.

I'm pretty sure that all denominations and sects of the JCI family of religions use the fear of their God's wrath as the primary motivator in most things. Don't you even try and sugar-coat this: the primary argument for the JCI faith is that if you do not believe in and worship Him, you're going to be brutally tortured for all eternity.

Further, I think those of us on this forum are uniquely equipped to understand how it can be possible to be a wrathful, terrifying presence, who is simultaneously the definition of Love, to paraphrase Thomas Aquinas. Put another way; the JCI god is a mean fucking dom.

hopperboo

07-19-2008, 10:33 AM

Further, I think those of us on this forum are uniquely equipped to understand how it can be possible to be a wrathful, terrifying presence, who is simultaneously the definition of Love
Which is partly what I was trying to get across.

Would you like to go through and look up a whole God loves us.

I said fear wasn't the entire basis of being submissive to God. And it's not. But I suppose each can take it their own way. If one wants to read and apply only the brimstone and fire to their lives and choose that for the reason to follow Christianity so be it. I choose to keep the upper part of my mind how much God loves us, with a healthy does of respect (yes, fear too) in the background.

Virulent

07-19-2008, 12:18 PM

You said fear wasn't the basis of religious submission; you just now restated it as it wasn't the entire basis of religious submission.

I agree with the clarified version of your opinion. Anything that has been constantly revised over thousands of years by tens of thousands of people is never going to be so simple as x is always y.

Kuskovian

07-19-2008, 06:06 PM

LOL.

Well we must consider that all religions tend to try and place each and everything in it's proper place according to the authors of thier individual dogmas.

So too it is with man and woman, life and death, ethics and sin; in a word dominion.

Whoever created it......it is what it is.

The dominants rule over those who submit.

Where it is essential in nature for dominance to preclude ones own survival; it is remarkable to think a religion that apeals to mercy and weakness would succeed so well.

Or is it?

Has not religion numerously been casually remarked to be yet another tool used to control the massess?

Thrue dominace is rare, as the hierarchy involved requires the one on top to "fear" (respect) his opponents So too those bellow fear those above. It is much like Aristotles Golden Mean. Contstant struggle insues, the proverbial state of war provided by Hobbes prevales in a way.

Wise is the dominant that remembers this well.

Dom/sub? Please .... anthropologically speaking it has existed since the first man stood above his brethern.

The extra testosterone males possess is there for a reason.

Man and woman both have thier duties, thier place in existance....the place where each in and of themselves ..........thrive.

This does not mean there are not exceptions or unique variations present.

What woman wishes to submit to a "weak" man.....and what man does not wish to conquer a strong woman?

Some females are stronger willed than others. Some are harder to subdue. Some men fail to see the advantages of the struggle with thier brothers and submit. Some take issue with thier genders purpose and rebel, even try to mimic thier partners sex, and or become it. Some rail at the inherent preception of weakness in others and over compensate for the absence of what they so desperatly need in thier lives, a reason, a purpose to submit too.

It is purpose that drives us. It is purpose that defines us. ( Matrix humor)

Some find thier purpose is to hold dominion, as nature intended it to be held with thier very last breath if need be.

hopperboo

07-20-2008, 06:48 PM

You said fear wasn't the basis of religious submission; you just now restated it as it wasn't the entire basis of religious submission.
Ahh, sorry. I meant it wasn't the entire basis. :s

P.S. I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

Virulent

07-20-2008, 08:00 PM

I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

Ya sure about that? You're here, aren't ya? :D

What I took it to mean was, "Why don't you make a similar lists of times the Bible says that God loves us? I bet it's way longer". I didn't bother because I don't disagree that the Bible makes both arguments; that God loves us, and we should love Him... and that we should also be terrified of Him, because He will do the most horrific, painful things imaginable to us, for all eternity, if we don't follow all of His rules.

Pastor

07-21-2008, 10:46 PM

Wow...

I find conversations of the bible, christianity, and other religions absolutely hilarious... Just check out my nick... But what is so funny to me is the different, and often extreme, views on what each religion and all of its implications.

When, if you have actually read and possible studied the bible/Quran. Like me, you would open your eyes to two of the most vile, gratuitous, immoral, and generalized books ever written by anyone.

I'm not going to get into who wrote what because until you introduce me to a REALLY old person who claims to know it all... Its all just theory. But I will make a claim that the writers of both books were clearly realists when you consider the references and history of both. To be simple, if you think the "lifestyle" is something new... Your crazy...

Now, I'm not claiming Paul was demanding all christians join the lifestyle. But to take the things that the bible said as law and not principal(You do know the difference right?). Is just another example of people limiting themselves and using some really good advice as an excuse to self destruct.

To directly answer the original poster's statement: To see BDSM as a Christian idea is not really an important issue (imho). Submission, as the bible uses the term, is not clearly defined anywhere in the bible. There are many parables and writers that claim to be examples of submission. But the only common thread is that someone else is put before themselves. The bible also claims we should do this for everyone.

So truthfully, I believe that the "details" of a relationship are left out of the marriage description on purpose. If the lifestyle makes you both happy... Great! If it doesn't... Figure it out!

If you get it wrong... Remember, CHRIST said to love the sinner and hate the sin.

Its ironic to me that this, the BDSM family shows the very characteristics of non-judgmental love, forgiveness, and total acceptance that CHRIST requires of the "christians" that would condemn us out of hat if they could find a legitimate platform to do it on...

I am a living, bought with the blood of Christ, Christian. I love my wife in all her many forms... And all of you as well!

-Pastor

denuseri

07-22-2008, 02:21 PM

is it a sin if i whorship my owners cock?

lol

Pastor

07-22-2008, 08:07 PM

Definitely not... In fact, I can point out a few scriptures that say you should.... Not specifically but, and I quote: " Your body is His and His body is yours..." Okay, paraphrase. Not quote. But you get the idea...

caligirl{Rob}

07-23-2008, 02:14 PM

ah makes me think of the quote I once heard

A man has his will, but a woman has her way!

:D

hopperboo

07-23-2008, 05:13 PM

LOL, I love that quote.

Kuskovian

07-24-2008, 03:42 PM

JHC seems to me to be the worlds first true "hypocritical switch". All love and submission all the time, "if you do it my way" otherwise, burn in hell. LOL.

No wonder that though, the old testement wasn't written for the gentiles, it was part historical record, and part desert survival guide. Hard god for hard conditions.

Look at the Norse gods, lots of love there. Funny how thier whole country just about converted to Lutheranism during the "Reformation".

Wasn't Luther a strong proponent of :"spare the rod and you spoil the child"?

Speaking of rods, I have a slut to beat.

LOL.

littlepet

09-11-2008, 01:36 PM

I feel the bible is another misogynistic book. I have a very very hard time understanding how women ignore the violence spoken against them in this book (actually collection of books.)

Genesis 3:16 Says that all women must suffer great pains during child birth due to Eve eating the fruit of knowledge. (As if it is somehow just that humans should pay for their ancestor’s sins nor is a woman dying in labor some how befitting of a crime she did not commit.) The verse finishes of by saying a husband shall “rule” over his woman, stripping us off all power in between the sexes.

Exodus 21:7 God not only sanctions selling ones daughter into slavery, but he also gives out laws on how it should be done.

Leviticus 12:1-8 Explains that a woman has to be purified after giving birth because she is “unclean”. It goes on to say that birthing a male is cleaner then birthing a female, hence a mother must purify TWICE as long when having a daughter. This is BLATANT sexism from the point of birth. A woman is dirty simply for being a woman; this is obviously very biased and chauvinistic.

Numbers 31: 14-18 Moses tells his men to kill all the males, non-virginal women, elderly and children of the Midianite tribe. Of course, the virgin women are kept for raping. If you read later down in the scripture God states that the Jews can not even marry a Midianite woman (with exception to Moses). Hence these women who were captured were repeatedly raped and impregnated and they weren’t even allowed a marital status in which to protect them.

(Oh and as a side note, all the comments above with the bible verses come from http://www.evilbible.com the comments after each bible verse are not my own, though I probably would have made very similar comments.)

Just a small sampling. Voluntary female submission to a male is fine. It's what some of us get off on, BUT...the big caveat is...SOME of us...and the even bigger caveat is...when it is proscribed by any book or religion it leads to larger wholesale abuse of women that goes beyond just a personal dynamic between any given man or woman.

And yes, I am probably about to piss off everybody on the forum today. It is my special gift.

Thorne

09-11-2008, 08:18 PM

And yes, I am probably about to piss off everybody on the forum today. It is my special gift.

Doesn't piss me off. I tend to agree with what you say. Many cultures in this world have, and still do, treat women as either second class persons or as property. This is especially pronounced in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim faiths, mainly because of the Biblical treatment of women.

And despite great advances in American society over the past 100 years, there is still a hard core of these feelings present here. And I believe it's primarily out of fear!

I have known several men who constantly put down women, regardless of how good at their jobs they were, or how smart they were. They always complained that any successful woman was only successful because of what they had between their legs. They felt that women could exert too much power over men because of their sexual organs.

This seems to be the idea in many Muslim nations even today. We hear stories of women who are executed for committing adultery, while the man they committed this heinous crime with only receives a pat on the wrist. Or a woman who was gang-raped in an Arab country who received a harsher sentence than her rapists because she was out of the house without a male escort. In other words, if a man cant keep his cock in his pants it must be the woman's fault!

I have never understood this concept myself. My feeling is that any person, whether male or female, can only have the power that you give them. If I don't allow myself to be influenced by a woman's short skirts and tight shirts, they no longer have power over me. Yes, I find them attractive, and I'll ogle along with the best of them. But that doesn't mean I have to run out and attack every shapely ass I see on the streets!

Yes, I am dominant, sexually, and I like women who are submissive, sexually. I don't find much to enjoy about a woman who is submissive all the time, though. I like women who are feisty and intelligent and who know what they want. And above all, I like women who know when to say "no", and I will respect that "no" every time.

Except, of course, when she really means "yes"!

littlepet

09-12-2008, 06:49 AM

Hey Thorne, it's because you possess actual strength, as opposed to brute force or a sense of entitlement based on your gender. :D

Thorne

09-12-2008, 11:25 AM

Hey Thorne, it's because you possess actual strength...

LOL! You don't know me very well, do you?:rolleyes:

littlepet

09-12-2008, 12:26 PM

I think you're being modest, lol. It's charming, but not convincing.

Thorne

09-12-2008, 07:39 PM

I think you're being modest, lol. It's charming, but not convincing.

Strong, modest and charming? Did I fall off a train in Mayberry?

Anyway, I thank you for the thought, littlepet. Now I have to go throw myself into a briar patch and try to get my mean back.

Master Bradley

09-14-2008, 01:27 AM

Thorne

09-14-2008, 08:08 AM

The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, a book based on fact, science, research,why on earth do we as intelligent human beings need to follow ancient books and scriptures telling us how to conduct ourselves,what makes people follow imaginary super gods, when we know for fact that we are just evolved animals, created and adapted for the world at this time, be nice to each other, look after each other and our planet,stop killing under the perceived protection of your chosen idol, take Responsibility for your own life, use your own mind, move forward as a human being, not backwards to a time when men and women were controlled by fear and ignorance.
Interestingly, I just saw a program in which scientists posed the question, "Was Darwin Wrong?"
They took points which Intelligent Design promoters use to claim that Evolution is wrong, and tried to refute them. In each case, there is ample scientific evidence to show that Darwin was not only not wrong, but was spectacularly right, especially considering the times in which he lived.

On the other hand, Darwin has little to say about morality, while the Bible, and other religious texts, are filled with moralistic tales. For better or worse, the Ten Commandments, in one form or another, form the basis for much of the modern world's laws. And scientists are learning that there is much in the Bible, specifically which is at least based on historical fact. But I think most people would agree that trying to apply the antiquated morality plays of the Bible to our own era can be dangerous, if not just plain silly!

Masterofpurdah

09-16-2008, 04:32 PM

Bullshit.. i like BDSM because am a big pervert no need to hide behind religious scriptures. Theres some women feeling submissive others not.

FrozenGrapes

09-16-2008, 04:39 PM

(Disclaimer - in no way am I trying to imply that Dommes and male subs are unnatural, or illigitimate, or anything else bad. I am just making gross generalizations.)[/QUOTE]
i actually agree with all that is said so far: even being a domme
I do feel that the natural thing for men and women is to have that headship arrangment. unfortunatly in this society women are trained not to be dominated and men not to dominate. so we have natural tendencies and needs that most do not know how to fill, so that brings us to why i am a domme and from some i have talked to seems to be the same. For me i cannot fully submit to someone and refuse to now. There are too many people (men and women but in this case i will speak of men) that do not know how to take the lead. as it was brought out this is a huge responsiblitiy and for those who are commanding personalities, if they do not know how to lead, they can and very often do hurt those they try to control. Controlling somone, having them submit to you is a rush, but unfortunaltly when a man gets this rush and does not respect it and the power he is given i can be very harmful for the one submitting to him.
Couple one or two experiences like that and a life time of society and family teaching you to "be independant" "stand on you own" "never listen to a man" and you have one whom is affectionatly know now as FrozenGrapes:rolleyes:
all in all i do believe that this lifestyle does infact mirror what Jesus taught about having a head and that one caring for his own and the submissive one the be "like a fine piece of pottery" useful and important to the household but also a beautiful centerpiece for the master to cherish... And how much care and concern would you give a fine crystal vase? would you not protect and cherish it? make sure it is well taken care of? and what is a master or mistress but nothing more than one charged to care for something precious? be it male or female?

orchidsoul

09-16-2008, 08:00 PM

Littlepet- doesn't piss me off either. I tend to agree with you as well.
I liken many sacred scriptures to the Declaration of Independence... they were constructed based upon the times, and the times, they are a changin'. Unlike the Declaration though, the bible doesn't have ammendments per se, rather new denominations and spin offs of the religion.

Many cultures in this world have, and still do, treat women as either second class persons or as property. This is especially pronounced in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim faiths, mainly because of the Biblical treatment of women.

I can't speak for anything except Judeo, but it's only in Orthodox that women are treated any differently- and it's quite a bit. In Conservative or Reformed, it's a fairly, if not completely, equal treatment between men and women.

Thorne

09-17-2008, 03:16 AM

I can't speak for anything except Judeo, but it's only in Orthodox that women are treated any differently- and it's quite a bit. In Conservative or Reformed, it's a fairly, if not completely, equal treatment between men and women.

Yes, a sign of change and modernization, if you will. Not unlike Catholicism, which is still struggling toward it but is definitely on its way. Women are being allowed more freedom within the Church, though nowhere on a par with men. Islam, it seems to me (someone correct me if I'm mistaken, please), is still mired in more medieval/archaic treatment of its women. I have no familiarity with Oriental religions, so I cannot comment on those.

But many cultures throughout the world, even in these modern times, place a higher value on the birth of a boy than of a girl, and still reckon the ownership of property to descend through the males of the family more than through females.

orchidsoul

09-17-2008, 06:05 AM

Not unlike Catholicism, which is still struggling toward it but is definitely on its way. Women are being allowed more freedom within the Church, though nowhere on a par with men. Islam, it seems to me (someone correct me if I'm mistaken, please), is still mired in more medieval/archaic treatment of its women. I have no familiarity with Oriental religions, so I cannot comment on those.
I don't know too much about the church... but I think it's sort of the same. Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc are more stringent with the separation, or rather purposes of the females in the family, of men and women to the best of my knowledge. But denominations like Episcopalean, Unitarianism, etc are more modern derivatives of Christianity and don't recognize many beliefs of Catholicism.

I have a few friends my age that practice Greek Orthodox and they are in no way comparable to their Mothers... in the sense they have jobs, are treated as equals in a relationship, are not expected to be barefoot, pregnant, and solely running a household unless they so choose. It's amazing how even one generation has changed.

Another difference is in Orthodox Judaism. Women do not sit with men, rather sit in the back of the temple, and in Greek Orthodox they can sit wherever they choose. When I went, we sat near the front and it was the most beautiful church and service I'd ever attended. Even when I went to the Basilica at the Vatican, women were intermixed with the men.

You are absolutely correct about Islamic faith. It's mired very much towards archaic treatment of women. Fully covered unless in the company of your immediate family, husbands only requirement for being a polygamist is to provide equally, devotion and financially, for each family... but good luck proving otherwise... and good luck trying to ever divorce your husband.

Like all the 'orthodox' (for lack of a better way to differentiate) religions, I think particularly practiced within the US there is more equality within the relationship, but often the man may have the final decision... not unlike a 24/7 relationship.

But many cultures throughout the world, even in these modern times, place a higher value on the birth of a boy than of a girl, and still reckon the ownership of property to descend through the males of the family more than through females.
I wonder if it's because in these cultures women are never the providers? It's only been a couple generations since some women have become the financial breadwinner in the family in the US...

In China with the birth restrictions (only one child) if the first is a girl, she will probably be put up for adoption. *shrugs* It's viewed almost as a failure for not being able to provide a boy as the first born. And if a second child is born... if that child is not put up for adoption, there's huge financial fines making it near impossible to pay the government and your bills.

denuseri

09-17-2008, 11:45 AM

Islam suffers from the same minority influence of fundamentalists and zealots imposssed on the majority (due to political and economic conditions) as the western religions do; that gives them both a bad reputation despite what good the individually pious people do in thier own communitees.

Zealotry and close minded fundamentalist thinking is the real enemy, not the religions themselves.

The world is not as developed over there in regaurds to personel freedoms, which i can assure you the people there do not all think it nessesarally should be.

In fact they sometimes have a tendency to view the western world as concieted eurocentric, rife with coruption and decadent on par with a level of true evil much as the subject and occupied nations of the mediteranian once viewed the romans.

Just as many years ago (and sometimes still today) the judeo/christian fundamentalists impossed what by today's standards are considered practices that violate human rights. Look at what just happened in texas not to long ago.

I see just as much ignorance and vehmency expoused here in the west as i have seen in the country of my birth especially by athiests.

Religions of the east have thier own problems alltough from personal experience with them (on average) i have never seen them to portray a sexually onesided view as those religions originating from the middle east (christianity, judisim, and islam) appear to on the surface.

I consititantly see people more than willing to point to one side or the other and say what they believe and do is wrong, all the while mentioning nothing of the thier own sides problems.

A quote from memory so forgive me if its wording is not exact comes to mind:

" do not cast out the sliver in thy brothers eye until you have dealt with the log in your own"

orchidsoul

09-17-2008, 01:01 PM

I surely didn't intend to mock or disparage any of the religions mentioned. Just was sharing what limited knowledge I have... some of it based on an Islamic studies course I took in college... which definitely covered negative issues for some practitioners. But you're right- that was 10 yrs ago, and the reality is most women are very comfortable and proud of their islamic faith, as one should be.

There is a certain reality to inequality, by modern western standards, within many religions. The difference being when women of their respective faiths don't feel subjugated by them and in fact are very comfortable with their customs, practices, and roles. And that is what should truly matter. It's like frowning upon a woman, or a man, in the US who chooses to be a stay at home parent. It all comes down to choice- something we are so fortunate to be able to express.

I also think other countries views of us, and our views of them, often are based upon the same stereotypes and some limited information received by the news. I know I've been treated unfairly in foreign countries just because I was an American. There were many presumptions made about my beliefs and lifestyle. You're right, it's unfair and perhaps I spoke only part of the realities for which I do apologize.

denuseri

09-17-2008, 01:12 PM

Ohh boo, i didnt mean anyone in paticular here so much as people in general on both sides.

I am myself kind of mixed in between the lines, being born there but raised here and moving all over as a military brat.

Thorne

09-17-2008, 01:47 PM

I wonder if it's because in these cultures women are never the providers? It's only been a couple generations since some women have become the financial breadwinner in the family in the US...
Good point! It really wasn't until after WW2 that women in this country even began to move towards careers outside the home, primarily because of their experiences during the war, replacing the men who were sent to the fronts. (A generalization, I know, but valid nonetheless.)

Zealotry and close minded fundamentalist thinking is the real enemy, not the religions themselves.
Absolutely! And it applies in any endeavor, not just religion. There have been many instances throughout history of older, more established scientists trying (and sometimes succeeding) to prevent younger, more radical students from publishing their "heretical" ideas, even to the point of blackballing them.

It is not my intention to pass judgment on any faith, though. There is nothing wrong with women adhering to their faith if that is what they truly want. What I don't like, regardless of where it occurs, is a religion or culture or what-have-you which forcibly suppresses any group or individuals for no reason but to maintain the status quo. If a person has a knowledge and understanding of something different and chooses their faith, all well and good. It is their choice to make, and I can understand and respect that. But when the leaders proclaim it forbidden for you to learn of other ways of life, and fiercely persecute those who wish to change, that is oppression and unconscionable.

That being said, it has long been my belief, as stated here often, that any religion (not faith) is based on fallacies and fantasies, and is designed to isolate its followers from any outside influences. They use ritual to perpetuate these fantasies and fear to maintain their hold on their people. Again, a generalization, but no less true because of it.

SilvieA

09-17-2008, 01:56 PM

I am Christian. But I see my religion as something between God and myself. At times not even the Bible enters the picture. I believe that the Bible was man's attempt at creating a path to tread that follows God. Certain parts of the Bible I dicount entirely, and gender roles is one such part. For me, that part of the Bible mirrors the times in which it was written.
Gender roles to me are complete bull. And even though I suppose I personally dream of a guy that wears the pants, that does not mean to me that every woman should; especially as a matter of faith. And even within my own preferences, I enjoy the challanges that the world offers me as a single woman who had always been expected to be independent by both of her parents... my dad is a hard-core feminist as far as his daughters are concerned :-P There are only certain guys I could ever submit to, men that I percieve as better for the job of leadership than me; tougher, stronger, and at least as intelligent as I am. Let's just say that there aren't a lot, lol. So, if feminin submission was to go mainstream then I would be worried for the world... there aren't all too many men worthy of submission.

orchidsoul

09-17-2008, 08:34 PM

Ohh boo, i didnt mean anyone in paticular here so much as people in general on both sides.

No worries- I actually didn't take it as a personal response. More so you opened my eyes to how I may have been portraying my thoughts and I wouldn't want to ever come across as stereotypical, presumptious, or judgemental regardless of the discussion.

In fact, I quite liked what you wrote. It's always good to be reminded of others views and how others may view.

orchidsoul

09-17-2008, 08:39 PM

Good point! It really wasn't until after WW2 that women in this country even began to move towards careers outside the home, primarily because of their experiences during the war, replacing the men who were sent to the fronts. (A generalization, I know, but valid nonetheless.)

not that much of a generalization- the difference being career vs. job. My grandmother began her career after having to get a job in the factory whilst her husband and all his brothers were at war. It was the reality of the times.

What I don't like, regardless of where it occurs, is a religion or culture or what-have-you which forcibly suppresses any group or individuals for no reason but to maintain the status quo. If a person has a knowledge and understanding of something different and chooses their faith, all well and good. It is their choice to make, and I can understand and respect that. But when the leaders proclaim it forbidden for you to learn of other ways of life, and fiercely persecute those who wish to change, that is oppression and unconscionable.

nods head in agreement.

lucy

09-25-2008, 04:15 AM

Do you see the D/s lifestyle having more freedom and respect for the woman than these scriptures?
Yes, i do. Simply because i chose to submit to someone, and retain the right to get out of my submission again if i want (and if i am able) to.

For me, littlepet has summed it up rather nicely.

damyanti

09-27-2008, 12:25 AM

Zealotry and close minded fundamentalist thinking is the real enemy, not the religions themselves.

I agree. The notion that if someone believes something, everyone else has to believe it, is something I just cant comprehend. You may preach to me (in a friendly and respectful manner), you should practice what you preach (if you want me to respect you)...but this need human beings have when someone doesn't live according to their "values" that their natural impulse is to convert with force, and if that doesn't work to kill. Never mind that "values" they preach usually include manifests against violence and bloodshed, and how they fail to see the hypocrisy of it...:confused:.

This is an extract (click on it for a link to original) from one of my favourite blogs, I share her sentiments:

"So much mistrust, hate fueling hate, revenge begetting another bloody round of revenge… Where does this all end?

Religion is a very personal matter, it belongs in our minds and in our families and homes, at most. How can we fight and kill each other over something so personal and subjective? Would you kill me if I said my husband was the best husband in the world? Would you mistrust me only because I did not marry yours? Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? I am sorry, but I find the other argument just as ridiculous too.

I am Hindu and I’d like to tell the so-called saviors of my Hindu pride, I don’t really care about rebuilding a temple that may or may not have been destroyed so many years ago if it is to happen at the cost of communal peace. And I have no interest in reclaiming the so-called lost honor of my religion. I never thought it was lost in the first place. I am very proud of my religion and would have been prouder still if you had never entered the picture.

Having said that, I am also least interested in establishing the supremacy of my religion over others. I am quite okay if you consider your religion superior to mine. Maybe it really is, who knows! I respect all religions equally, I truly do. I find as much peace of mind in a church as in a temple. I bow my head in reverence each time I pass a mosque. And I have Muslim friends who I am sure would like to say something similar to the terrorists supposedly waging war on their behalf.

So let me ask you both, fanatic Hindus and Muslims, do you care about the thousands of innocent lives being lost in this farce, lives of the very people whom you claim to protect and later avenge? Did they volunteer to be sacrificed in your war? Men, women and children, the bombs did not distinguish between Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians - simple folks like yours and mine out for some Saturday evening fun with the family." (http://jottingsnmusings.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/delhi-blasts-an-emotional-reaction/)

While there may be some spirituality in it (as in any close relationship), I don't think bdsm has anything to do with religion. I am submissive and a woman; I am not submissive because I am a woman. For me its an entirely matter of sexual eroticism...but I can see how easily the confusion can be made...it is in human nature to seek high purpose and in no other matter is the purpose higher and D/s dynamic clearer than in religion.

For me what it comes down to, is choice. It horrorfies me when I see matters of private choice made into a law. If it were a free (meaning, no implied threats) choice of each woman individually to wear Abaya, I have no problem with that- but as long as its law, its never a free choice. I could be wrong, but based on what I have read, its not even something thats written in Qur'an, but a social norm made up by (weak) men.

I subscribe to Unitarian Universalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism), its a faith that comes naturally to me...so I find studying Islam fascinating. I even tried googling Islam and bdsm, but nothing of substance came up?

This to me is true Islam, (not something I am looking to convert to), but its the interpretation I have no problem with and respect very much:

"The rights of husband and wife

Q). Different problems arise in different marriages, I should be grateful if you would kindly comment on the rights and duties of a husband and wife when the following problems arise.

1. If the wife is disobedient in both domestic and religious matters.
2. If she misuses the money given to her by her husband and gives it to her relations although they may be rich.
3. If she refuses to move to her husband’s home, where he wishes to live permanently.
4. If she passes offensive remarks against her husband, claiming that she is only joking.
5. If she refuses to resign from her employment.
6. If she refuses to give their child the name her husband wants to give him
7. Is a husband within his rights to talk to his friends about his wife?

(Name and address withheld)

1. Islam views marriage as a relationship, which brings two persons together in frieand compassion. Problems and quarrels arise in almost every marriage. Rare indeed is a marriage, which is free of them. It is when such problems and differences arise that compassion, consideration and affection are most needed in order to overcome the difficulty, reconcile the partners and ensure the safety of the marriage and the family, and above all to safeguard the interests of the children. It is important, therefore, to make the rights and limits of each of the two partners absolutely clear in order to reduce the effects of these problems to the minimum. It is also important that authority in the family should be well defined. Islam gives that authority to the husband, on the basis that it is he who earns the money and is required to look after his wife and children. Islam, however, does not neglect the other half of the marriage, namely, the wife. It ensures that the wife is treated with respect and honor and makes it clear that she is entitled to exercise her rights, which are commensurate with her duties. The prophet says:” The best among you is the best in his treatment of his household, and I am the best of you in my treatment of my household” The prophet was not boasting about his treatment of his wives when he said so. Far is it from him to boast about anything he does. The prophet said that only because he is the example Allah expects us to follow. When we know that he has extended to his wives the best treatment a woman can dream of, then by following his example, we are practicing our religion, earning reward from Allah and ensuring our own happiness.

Having said that, I realize that not all marriages can be happy. Some of them are stormy, and some always suffer form the incompatibility of the personalities of both partners. Problems which in the beginning may be small are soon compounded and family life becomes a continuous misery. In order to solve problems of the type mentioned in the reader’s letter, it is important to know what are the rights and the duties of each in every situation. Taking these cases one by one, let us consider the Islamic answer to them.

1. It is the duty of a wife to obey her husband in all matters which affect the family, provided that his wishes and what he tells her to do does not contravene any Islamic law or regulation. Having said that, I should perhaps add that life in the family should not be treated as life in a military camp, with orders issued morning and evening and differences of opinion treated as disobedience leading to mutiny. If the husband, however, expresses a certain wish or expects something from his wife which he makes clearly understood, then his wife should endeavor to fulfill that as long as it does not badly affect her or their family and it does not constitute a disobedience of Allah. The Prophet says: ”No creature may be obeyed in what constitutes disobedience to Allah.” If the wife is habitually disobedient in ordinary matters, her husband should counsel her that her attitude is bound to leave adverse effects on both of them and their children. The Qur’an speaks of three different stages of dealing with such disobedience. Allah states in the Qur’an: As those women whose rebellion you have reason to fear, admonish them first: then leave them alone in bed: then beat them(lightly): and if they subsequently pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Allah is indeed most high, great. (4:34) It must be clearly understood that the physical punishment mentioned in verse is treated as the last resort and it must not be severe or on the woman’s face. It should be viewed only as a corrective measure, which is not used except in extreme cases. Admonition and staying away from bed must be tried first. As for the disobedience in religious matters, the Qur’an advises us Bid your family to pray, and be patient with them. This divine instruction may be carried over so as to include all religious duties. One has to tell his wife and members of his family to attend to their religious duties and treat them wisely so as to encourage them to fulfill those duties. He should explain to them their duties toward Allah, quoting always from the Qur’anic verse implying clear instruction that he or she should do something, he is far more likely to comply than when the instruction is given in the words of human being.

2. The prophet makes clear that woman should not spend her husband’s money without his consent, not even for charity. This is because it is normally the husband who earns the money. Hence, he should have the final say in how it is spent. The prophet says: ”No woman may spend something from her husband’s house without his permission.” The prophet was asked: ”Not even food” He said: that is the best of our money.” It is, however, permissible for a woman to give away perishable food if she fears that it will perish if kept, and her family does not need it. She need not wait for her husband to give his permission in that particular case. If a woman nevertheless spends some money, which belongs to her husband for a charitable purpose, he earns the reward for it and she incurs the blame for spending it without having his consent first.

3. If her husband’s home is adequate for the family and meets all the requirements of a home, then it is her duty to move to it if her husband asks her to do so. If she does not, she is considered rebellious and she forfeits her right to financial support by her husband.

4. This attitude cannot be condoned at all. It is indeed forbidden. The prophet was asked: “who has the greatest claim over a woman?” He answered: “Her Husband” He was then asked: “who has the greatest claim over a man?” He answered “His mother.” In view of this hadith, passing offensive remarks to the person who has the greatest claim to a woman’s respect and good treatment is the direct opposite of her duty.

5. The normal situation is that the husband works in order to earn his living and support his family. A woman is not supposed to work because she does not need to do so. A recent ruling by an Egyptian court, however, states that if a man marries a woman when she is employed or having a regular job, and he agrees to her continued working, then he has no right to prevent her from continuing with her work. If he, nevertheless, asks her to quit her job and she disobeys, then her disobedience is not considered rebellion in the technical sense which makes her forfeit her right to be supported. This ruling is based on the assumption that her husband's agreement to her work at the time of their marriage is deemed to be one of the conditions of the marriage. The prophet says: “Believers, abide by whatever conditions they accept.”

6. Ii is the right of the husband to give his children their names. Here again mutual agreement promotes good and healthy atmosphere in the family. This should never be an issue of contention in any family.

7. It is not appropriate from the Islamic point of view to speak to other people about one’s wife. It is permissible, however to seek advice from people of wise judgement or to seek good counsel. If it is for that purpose that one speaks about his wife to others, then he must always remember that he should not speak ill of her, so that they form a bad opinion of her. What he says about her should never be tantamount to backbiting her. He should remember that she also has a right over him to protect her and to make others hold her in good esteem. He should never say a word of untruth about her." (http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#RIG)

awakening2

10-27-2008, 06:32 AM

jeanne

11-01-2008, 07:05 AM

Smiles! a very strong statement jeanne..."My sexuality comes from God - He made me this way. If I don't honor myself, including my sexuality...". I hope every one takes it in the right way...that you meant...

Child abusers, serial killers or all those who believe in "might is right" may consider themselves gifted too...so if they try to get away from it, it would not mean they are dishonoring.....(And yes, 'No', I do not see direct relation between christianity and BDMS (personal opinion!)

I just saw this - and you got me thinking! Always a good thing.

In reading through this thread again, I find a sort of consensus (I think) that in our daily lives we have a duty to not harm others. When I state that my sexuality is how God made me, I do believe it. But, the expression of my sexuality is where choice comes in. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that my sexuality included pedophilia. Could I then say to myself "this is how God made me, therefore expressing it by having sexual relations with children is okay"? Well, I suppose I could. But, then I run into the idea of harming others. Suppose again that I have the intelligence and will to recognize that the expression of 'me' is not okay when I harm those who are unable to give consent, whether by age or mental defect. What do I do then? I find a way to satisfy that need, perhaps through role-play with other adults, or I suppress that need and turn my attentions another direction.

I think we have an obligation - not from God or any other diety but simply as human beings, thinking, breathing, living - to care for each other. To accept the fact that although we each have needs and desires and a fundamental 'self', we must find a way to live our authentic selves in harmony with other human beings.

Gosh. I'm exhausted. :rolleyes:

awakening2

11-03-2008, 10:46 PM

Jeanne, all I can say now is that if I were wearing a hat, by now I would have been on one knee, in front of you, taking it off my head acknowledging respectfully the considerate genius in you!

jeanne

11-08-2008, 08:34 AM

Jeanne, all I can say now is that if I were wearing a hat, by now I would have been on one knee, in front of you, taking it off my head acknowledging respectfully the considerate genius in you!

Now you get to acknowledge the blushing fool who can't believe you said that. I'm incredibly flattered - thank you.

:wave:

awakening2

11-09-2008, 01:19 AM

jeanne

11-10-2008, 05:54 AM

That speaks of your humble nature, which I call "noble", to thank the thanking who thanked because of your virtue...I consider that nobleness, your answer was really beautiful...!

Looking at the picture (and surprisingly missed this thing before...), I do wonder about the ankle straps, if they are for self-restraints...or what...?Some of the 'wanna be saints' in the past used to place them on their ownself to pass through the terrain leading to enlightenment...though there also were the ones who were made to wear (slaves)...wonder who you are and what you seek... but TY and yes my...
Regards anyway!

Hmmm. The ankle cuffs belong to my Dom and I wear them (and the wrist cuffs) always when we are together privately. They are simply a symbol, and in some ways a path to submission for me. He puts them on me as soon as possible when we see each other, because He knows that my mental and emotional attitude will immediately become focused on His pleasure by the wearing of them. Who am I? His. I am His.

awakening2

11-11-2008, 04:51 AM

Smiles, will always wish you the best for you!!!

Chillye

01-07-2010, 01:16 AM

You make a very intriguing point. It can be applicable to the BDSM lifestyle (which is actually quite interesting!)
It is true that St. Paul believed that womyn should be subservient to men, as stated in his letter to the Ephesians. Though, to my knowledge, it also extends to men. In it he proclaims that man's sins blacken their wives souls as much as their own, because they were one body, person, and soul after holly matrimony. God may be sexist, but the bible also has domination-female themes. Such as Lilith, Adam's first wife. She decided to choose her own destiny and chose NOT to be subservient to Adam. Which is a statement practically saying that womyn can choose their own destiny.
BDSM at least gives people a choice whether to submit, much better than I can say about religions that stem from Catholicism.
So I believe that bible or not we all can create our own destinies. Whether it be to rebel, such as Lilith, or to submit such as Eve (though technically she rebelled in a way.)

Saheli

01-23-2010, 04:24 PM

The Apostle Paul in the Christian Bible was rather adamant about women submitting to their husbands, and being under the headship of their fathers before they marry.

I think that Paul took the theories behind the relationship dynamic to a much more sexist level than was necessary or even intended. Here is why I think this. Paul discusses how women should be silent in church. He even says that if a woman has a question, she shouldn't even ASK there. Instead, she is to wait until she is at home with her husband and then ask him. I don't believe that God and Paul share this same thought. There are many examples of women leaders throughout the Bible...women leading communities, churches, the first Minister of Music was a woman (Miriam...Moses' sister), and one of the Judges was a woman--Deborah, I think. Obviously it isn't such a big deal to God. Why is it to Paul? Well, first of all, we have to remember that Paul was Saul before he changed his name. And Saul was very highly esteemed in his Jewish community. He was one of the Pharisees; he knew the law perfectly...he was in charge, and he had a lot of status/power. Couple this with the culture of that time, which basically said women were property, and it isn't too hard to figure out that Paul (though he had some good ideas and understood many things very well) missed the boat on this one. So the fact that God puts women in positions of power in church while Paul says women shouldn't speak in church tells me that Paul was just wrong. Good intentions, but wrong.

In addition to the wife's complete submission to the spiritual head of the home, he is also to love her "as Christ loves the Church" (church being body of believers in Jesus as the Messiah)

It is true that the church believes Jesus is the Messiah, but when the Bible says that "he should love her as Christ loves the church," that isn't what it means. The Bible says on multiple occasions that there is only one God, that a man cannot serve two masters (which in my opinion refers to the two masters being on the same level; it is possible to have two masters, as long as one master is the ultimate master and above the lesser master). So when it says "as Christ loves the church," it means unconditionally and even to death. Christ died for the church even when He didn't do anything wrong. He suffered out of love. That's what it means. A wife is not supposed to worship her husband--this is not a command for her but for him. He is to love her so much that even if she's wrong he will take the fall for her out of love...it means there should be no limit to the sacrifices he will make for her good.

I am wondering if this is comparible to the BDSM lifestyle. Do you see it that way? Or do you see that not all women are being commanded to be submissives? That women in this role are choosing it and therefore it is totally other?

I believe it is. But I don't believe women are commanded to be submissives per se. My belief is gray: Women should be submissive to their husbands in the sense that they should have respect for them. To me, it is no different than the respect husbands should have for their wives; the difference is in the way the respect is shown. I think the main point here isn't WHO is submissive but just that you can't have a peaceful home if everybody wants to be the boss. I think that instead of explaining in detail how it doesn't really matter which person in the couple prefers to be Dominant and which prefers to be submissive, it was just easier to say women should submit. But then again, I don't know if there would have been riots if it were worded in any other way...because back then, women had no rights at all. Submitting wasn't really a choice like it is now. And really, (some people will disagree) God isn't that petty. Honestly, do you think that He's spending time brooding over which one of you is Dominant and which one is submissive? He doesn't care. I really believe it's just not that big of a deal. I think that all of these guidelines were written the way they were because
1)They reflected the culture of that time and
2)The goal is the big picture--peace in the home.

Could you imagine if you lived back then, and you decided you wanted to be the Dominant while your husband would be submissive? I think it's a safe bet that a statement like that would not exactly foster tranquility in your house.

Bottom Line: The Bible clearly states that both people in a couple are to respect and honor one another. It instructs men to not be harsh (because they have a tendency to be) and women to call their husbands 'Lord' (or Master, because it is a sign of respect). So, as long as love is present on both sides. It doesn't matter which person is playing which role. Just because you're a woman doesn't necessarily mean you're stuck in the 'wife' role and vice versa. If God is so petty that it TRULY bothers Him whether or not it's me or my husband who is the Dominant one in the relationship, then I guess I would probably need to re-evaluate the validity of God's promise that "I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you..." Really? So if I'm female and I want to be the Dominant, and if God made me and created me to have a natural urge to Dominate, then the only way that would NOT harm me is if God has no problem with me being a Dominant.

Saheli

01-23-2010, 07:39 PM

Arguably nobody today follows the Bible to the letter, and with this reasoning there are no Christians today. Just people using the title just like people wear a hat or picks a pretty but nonsensicle title or name. It becomes devoid of meaning.

If anyone is interested, there is a book titled Unchristian by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. This is basically just a compilation of statistics about people's opinions concerning those who call themselves Christians. It's extremely interesting and empirical. They do not discuss their personal views much...it's just data from research, which I appreciate.

Saheli

01-23-2010, 07:49 PM

i used to think masturbation was a sin..but where in the Bible does it mention that? these things were pointed out to me by someone..i always thought it was mentioned in the Bible..i have faith..i no longer believe in organized religion..my faith has kept me sane..
isabeau6

I absolutely hate it when Bible-thumpers twist what the Bible really says and makes up things that don't exist just so they can control people. Now I'm Christian, and I believe the Bible. But to me a Bible-thumper is the kind of person who thinks they are closer to God than anyone else; usually those people are the FURTHEST away, which is why Jesus always had tongue-lashings to hand out to the Pharisees. Just makes me sick.

As for the organized religion bit, my husband is a Minister of Music. So I have the 'privilege' :rolleyes: of seeing how church is run behind the scenes. If you want to find the meanest, most evil, controlling, manipulative, and deceptive people in your community, the local church may be your best bet. It's sad to say, but it's true. Organized religion is worthless and harmful; all it does is set people apart from each other (while people should be unified in love) and twist the truth. Organized religion seems to work much more against faith than it does for it...that's really sad.

Canyon

04-11-2010, 07:28 PM

Ephesians 5;25

All these posts about obedient women. How many of you men measure up.

Thorne

04-11-2010, 09:13 PM

Ephesians 5;25

All these posts about obedient women. How many of you men measure up.

Ah, yes. "5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

This would be the church that wasn't even founded until years after Christ's death? Kinda hard to love something that didn't exist yet.

But, in answer to your question, I have loved my wife for almost 38 years now. And it didn't take a single Bible quotation to do it, either.