Fear

[Avely]

I apologize in advance for the exceedingly long post.

I have questions regarding a ‘freeze’ type response in a sub. Clinically this is termed ‘tonic immobility’ and is the last of the three human responses to fear (the three being: flight, fight, and freeze). The ‘freeze’ response essentially consists of instantaneous total physical paralysis, accompanied by a decreased blood pressure, and an emotional numbing effect while maintaining complete and sometimes dissociated awareness. Most individuals never experience this response unless they’ve had a lifethreatening experience (like being mauled by a bear … I do hope no one on this forum has ever been mauled by a bear :eek: ) where this response is the body’s last ditch effort to stay alive. A very small number of individuals (see somewhat technical explanation below) go straight to the ‘freeze’ response. For these individuals, if suddenly a certain threshold of fear is attained or surpassed, they automatically go into a state of paralysis (paralysis in this context implies the individual could not move of their own volition, but does not mean that others could not move them. Responses depend on the individual, and typically range from ‘freeze as you are’ with no change in visual appearance, to a rag-doll like mobility). In this state, they most often would not be able to make any form of communication, be it a safeword or a physical signal (I doubt even a ‘drop the neon stress ball’ safety mechanism would work unless the individual was certain they would have a complete rag-doll like response.)

My questions is these: If anyone has ever had an experience remotely similar to the above in a bdsm related situation, were you able to devise a way to solve the obvious safety issue for future play (beyond going at a slower pace)? Did you eventually overcome this reaction and if so, how? It would be interesting to hear both sub and Dom/Domme views/ideas on this as well as on any other somewhat atypical responses to fear that have been encountered and how these were handled by both parties.

Avely

[For those interested in the somewhat technical explanation, here is my understanding from the research I've done: the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) controls the flight and fight responses, while the parasympathetic nervous system (PNS) controls the freeze response. In the majority of individuals, the PNS will only be activated if the individual perceives themselves to be doomed (aka there was no possibility of fight or flight). However, persons with either a dominant PNS or a latent SNS can transition directly to freeze, skipping the flight and fight responses. Another possibility is the activation of both the SNS and PNS systems at once, which is very much like hitting the accelerator and the break at the same time. This can produce varying degrees of the freeze, flight and fight responses all at once)] … I can’t claim any great knowledge in the fields of biology or psychology, if anyone has a better technical grasp on the phenomena, please feel free elaborate…

[Ozme52]

I have no first hand experience in this in a bdsm scene, however it seems to me that the solution to such response in a submissive requires that she tell his/her partner...

... and it then becomes incumbent upon the dominant to ensure that there is no fear in any scene he devises. That means open communication about what a scene will entail and plenty of planning.

Fear is a response to the unknown or a response to an attack. Planning and conversation can eliminate the unknown. Foreknowledge will eliminate any attack response.

Now, if the sub doesn't know s/he's prone to catatonically freezing, I can't imagine anyone but a totally self-centered dominant not becoming aware of a lack of response of any kind in the submissive. After all, in effect, it's not far removed from what we call subspace... if it's any different at all.

[Echoes]

If I may counterject here Oz, subspace is so completely different then dissassociation, I have experienced both in BDSM. Dissassociation is a thick white fog, nothing enters once this has descended, a person blanks out completely and remembers/feels nothing whereas subspace is softer. a cloud, and the sub/slave is aware of sensation, carried, lead or taken by this.

from the view of a submissive, I am not sure how it would look from a Dominants point of view or sight.

[Ozme52]

Which is why I said the effect. I meant from the perspective of the dominant, the two look essentially the same.

[Echoes]

Which is why I said the effect. I meant from the perspective of the dominant, the two look essentially the same.

:rose: Thank you both...I did not know a Dominant's perspective of this before and have wondered...not meaning to take away or veer the thread off course.

[Echoes]

Averly I cannot add more to what Oz has said; planning, learning and knowing your triggers if you can, go slow, be aware of subtleties.
Trust, complete and open communication...these all help tremendously.

[Avely]

Ozme52, Echoes, thank you for your insight and words of wisdom. I am very new to the world of bdsm and am still trying to figure out how some of my quirks may fit in with aspects of the lifestyle.

Your words, and this forum itself has proven invaluable. I'd like to thank all who have contributed to this knowledge base.

Avely

[Echoes]

Ozme52, Echoes, thank you for your insight and words of wisdom. I am very new to the world of bdsm and am still trying to figure out how some of my quirks may fit in with aspects of the lifestyle.

Your words, and this forum itself has proven invaluable. I'd like to thank all who have contributed to this knowledge base.

Avely

How do you mean quirks Avely?

[Avely]

How do you mean quirks Avely?

By 'quirks' I mean personal or psychological traits that (as far as I know) are rare or unique. My 'freeze' response to fear caused by certain triggers (many of which I still have yet to identify) is one of them.

[Echoes]

I have found it...

quirk (kwûrk)
n.
A peculiarity of behavior; an idiosyncrasy: “Every man had his own quirks and twists” (Harriet Beecher Stowe).
An unpredictable or unaccountable act or event; a vagary: a quirk of fate.

...all I can say is everyone has their own weaknesses and strengths, attributes to character and everyone is individual.
You gave dtp some great and wonderful advise about find the "One". Perhaps apply this possibly to aspects of the lifestyle you wish to journey and grow from there.
I know I have a certain signal before this happens to me, very subtle, my body reacts or acts, gives a signal...it is there. Do you have one, perhaps suggest to watch for it or try and recognize it yourself if possible.
I read many say it all depends on the person you are with, they would have to know, to be told...
Would someone wish to travel or endeavor a journey knowing this could and might happen, probably will? I have no idea. I hope so myself, but honestly I do not know.
I know it would take a lot of work and patience on both sides, a lot of determination and learning, knowledge.
Is it possible and probable to surpass these reactions? Yes with patience, trust and openness, again with a lot of work on both sides, understanding.
Outside of BDSM I have passed many of these by myself, and the joy and freedom it gives is surmountable.
Never ever give up hope, it all depends how much you want to move forward and by posting here tells me much. You are already asking. Your post is very intelligent and research thorough, so you know yourself, you are teaching yourself...yet there is only so much one can teach themself by themself.

I wonder to myself...dare I post this? Am I talking too much? I do not wish to assume anything or insinuate, insert...I most certainly do not know all and am learning myself a little bit more.
To answer one of your questions in your first post, it is possible, very probably actually.

softest hugs
echoes

[Avely]

You gave dtp some great and wonderful advise about find the "One". Perhaps apply this possibly to aspects of the lifestyle you wish to journey and grow from there.

The journey of discovering and exploring the lifestyle certainly is an adventure, and although it's one i've only just begun, so far it has been exciting and enjoyable.



I know I have a certain signal before this happens to me, very subtle, my body reacts or acts, gives a signal...it is there. Do you have one, perhaps suggest to watch for it or try and recognize it yourself if possible.

Definitely something I will try to look for, though I havn't noticed one yet.



Is it possible and probable to surpass these reactions? Yes with patience, trust and openness, again with a lot of work on both sides, understanding.
Outside of BDSM I have passed many of these by myself, and the joy and freedom it gives is surmountable.
Never ever give up hope, it all depends how much you want to move forward and by posting here tells me much. You are already asking. Your post is very intelligent and research thorough, so you know yourself, you are teaching yourself...yet there is only so much one can teach themself by themself.

I do indeed look forward to the day I no longer fear 'fear' itself. After reading this last quote over many times, I think you've made me realise my ultimate dilema ... this challenge may not be one that I can examine and overcome on my own.



I wonder to myself...dare I post this? Am I talking too much? I do not wish to assume anything or insinuate, insert...

Your words are wise, and I am very glad you posted them. I am greatful you are willing to share your knowledge and experience of things that I know can be difficult to remember and discuss.



softest hugs
echoes

gingerly hugs you back... softly...

Avely :)

[Echoes]

I know I have a certain signal before this happens to me, very subtle, my body reacts or acts, gives a signal...it is there. Do you have one, perhaps suggest to watch for it or try and recognize it yourself if possible.


Definitely something I will try to look for, though I havn't noticed one yet.


I found the best way to do this..and it will not come the first time, but journaling does help, do not avoid what has caused this reaction and examine everything closely leading up to the cause. Go over every particular detail and try to slow it down in your mind after...
The key is to slow your mind down, the chemical response and this done by being aware of yourself and finely attuned. Turn your outer hyper-vigilance into yourself and focus then work. Cognitive behavior work also (very important) The next time it happens, you will notice more until you reach a point you can react vocally, even if minutely, and react physically...giving a small signal.


I think you've made me realise my ultimate dilema ... this challenge may not be one that I can examine and overcome on my own.

At first I think why would you wish to do this alone, then look at myself and shake my head going "uh?"

Yes with someone you trust it would be so much easier, and with someone who knows and accepts what you tell him/her so they too can watch and help. Again communication and not giving up, not thinking a reaction is a failure but the next step to your goal.

My personal feeling only that I give caution BDSM is not a reason to come to for this, also that seeking a relationship is too not a reason to seek this freedom, but the reason being that you are ready for a relationship and wish to embrace and be embraced within this. The same said for this lifestyle...if it is truly calling to you, what you see within is a part of you.:confused:

softest hugs
~echoes~

[Desperadosong]

I have, in the past had this "freeze" effect happen to me. My Dom at the time saw it immediatly when it happened, and stopped all scening, also taking note of what had been done and how long, hard etc. And yes, it is VERY akin to what I felt at subspace EXCEPT... in subspace there is a complete feeling of saftey and bliss... during a "freeze", it is complete terror, except the outward reactions are VERY similar. (or so I have been told) I was told that when I hit subspace my body either goes completely limp... stands against the cross and sways gently or stands peacefully. When I am "frozen" I turn stiff as a board and have no response.

Hope this helps a bit

Ds

[_ID_]

Avely - I am curious what kind of situation in BDSM context you have found triggers this? If you don't feel comfortable giving this information thats understandable.

I haven't experienced a submissive that had a freeze response as of yet. So I don't have the ability to compare the response of subspace with the freeze you write of.

Ds - What situation caused you to experience your freeze response? Having several view points I think will help those wishing to know what to look for.

V/R
ID

[Desperadosong]

Ds - What situation caused you to experience your freeze response? Having several view points I think will help those wishing to know what to look for.

V/R
ID

Well, the very few times that it happened, it appears that frame of mind "before" the scene played a big part. Each time, I had been upset or stressed before the scene... each time, it was the "stingy" toys that led to this (rubber floggers, violet wand) and each time it seemed that I would seem to be getting "right" to subsapce, then bam! stiffen up. Looking back at those times afterward (and over the years), I now realize I was going back mentally to certian bad times in my life, instead of where I go while in subspace. My best suggestion to avoid this is to know your and your partners complete past, even the small details, and to make sure the mindset is relaxed and at ease BEFORE starting a scene. Just to clarify, a scene can and does start long before one is strapped to a cross.

Ds

[_ID_]

a scene can and does start long before one is strapped to a cross

Very much so.

Avely - Does that kind of situation sound familar to you?

ID

[Avely]

Avely - I am curious what kind of situation in BDSM context you have found triggers this? If you don't feel comfortable giving this information thats understandable.ID

During the past few years I have been drawn towards certain aspects of BDSM, but refused to let myself explore these desires in part because of my 'freeze' reaction which has occurred in a vanilla context, and also partially because of the social views I was raised with. These desires are something I can no longer ignore and keep reppressed. So far my ventures into the world of BDSM have been solely informative. I'm trying to find the best way to eventually explore some of these desires while minimizing the likelyhood of a 'freeze' reaction from occuring. This is why I have sought advice through the forum.


Well, the very few times that it happened, it appears that frame of mind "before" the scene played a big part. Each time, I had been upset or stressed before the scene... each time, it was the "stingy" toys that led to this (rubber floggers, violet wand) and each time it seemed that I would seem to be getting "right" to subsapce, then bam! stiffen up.

Ds


Avely - Does that kind of situation sound familar to you?


Ds, I thank you for sharing your experiences. It had not occured to me to examine my general frame of mind in the hours leading up to a time where I had a reaction. As I said above, I've only had this reaction in a 'vanilla' setting, and I have had it to varying degrees (degrees relating to the degree of paralysis and the intensity of emotion). Currently, looking back, I can make no parallel connections between my various frames of mind leading up to these incidients. This is something I will attempt to take more note of in the future.



Looking back at those times afterward (and over the years), I now realize I was going back mentally to certian bad times in my life, instead of where I go while in subspace.

I cannot define the mental place I frequent when I have a reaction, needless to say it is a place I most certainly do not care to visit. I cannot relate this 'mental place' with any event of my past. I have noticed that I've developped new triggers after a particularly bad reaction. These triggers will be some minute detail (usually a physical action which would be considered meaningless to most people) that occured in the few minutes preceeding the reaction. If these new triggers are activated by someone or something, I will mentally flashback to the original reaction. With time, I do seem to desensitize to these 'new' triggers until they no longer invoke an outwardly noticable reaction.

Echoes, Ozme52, Ds, ID, I thank you for your continued discussion and input on this topic.

Avely

[Ozme52]

Here's an idea that's merely an extension of something that some dom/mes do anyway... and will ensure you haven't lost control of your reactions.

"One. Thank you Sir, May I have another."

If you have to say it to get it, then you won't experience the fear that will trigger the reaction.


...and I'm willing to prove it. weg*

[Desperadosong]

Here's an idea that's merely an extension of something that some dom/mes do anyway... and will ensure you haven't lost control of your reactions.

"One. Thank you Sir, May I have another."

If you have to say it to get it, then you won't experience the fear that will trigger the reaction.


...and I'm willing to prove it. weg*


Well, I'd sign up for the provin... but I have a feeling that was directed to Aviry. ;)
Oz Sir... I think she said her "freezes" aren't lifestyle related... or did I miss something? So I may just hafta take her share of the "One. Thank you Sir... can I please have another?" lol

Ds

[Avely]

Oz Sir... I think she said her "freezes" aren't lifestyle related... or did I miss something?

So far my reactions have not been lifestyle related, but it is possible (and the more I think about it, very probable) that when I begin to explore the lifestyle on more than a purely informative basis, I will stumble across triggers.


...and I'm willing to prove it. weg*


So I may just hafta take her share of the "One. Thank you Sir... can I please have another?" lol


Ozme52, you are kind, but Ds may have to fill in for me until I am ready to explore on such an active level. Perhaps a raincheck? :)

Avely

[Ozme52]

Well, I'd sign up for the provin... but I have a feeling that was directed to Aviry. ;)
Oz Sir... I think she said her "freezes" aren't lifestyle related... or did I miss something? So I may just hafta take her share of the "One. Thank you Sir... can I please have another?" lol

Ds

You're correct... but she also said she was avoiding lifestyle scenes because she's concerned about the 'freeze' reaction... so my suggestions are for ways to explore lifestyle that will help her through and past that concern.

D-song, What's your travel schedule like? :cool:

[Ozme52]

Perhaps a raincheck? :)

Avely

Perhaps? Consider it a guarantee. :cool:

[miss duece]

Excuse me but I'm a bit puzzled. Why is freeze a last ditch human response to stay alive? I mean I can understand fight or flight, but why freeze? Why would it be the last either? On a more darker side, does anyone think maybe it prepares us to die? I just don't get it. Enlighten me please.

[Avely]

Excuse me but I'm a bit puzzled. Why is freeze a last ditch human response to stay alive? I mean I can understand fight or flight, but why freeze? Why would it be the last either?

It is believed that the freeze response is the human body's last way of attempting to stay alive... this stems from humanity's primitive beginnings. It is a common response among the wild when being attacked... when a pray animal can no longer escape a predator, it enters the 'freeze' response and 'plays dead'.... literally. Non-movement in prey appears to be a potent inhibitor of aggression in predators, and often results in an abort of the predators attack-kill instinctual responses.

If the 'freeze' response is activated in full, from a biological point of view, the body becomes unresponsive, breathing and pulse rate diminuish, and blood flow is reduced in the extremities and restricted to the vital organs. The mind and brain remain in highly activated states, even though outward movement and signs of life are almost nonexistent. As a result of the physiological responses, what would normally be lifethreatening injuries are diminuished in severity. The lowering of blood pressure would reduce the amount of blood loss from a wound, especially for wounds on extremities where blood flow is also reduced.

Odd sidenote: Could this be how the whole vampire concept began?



On a more darker side, does anyone think maybe it prepares us to die? I just don't get it. Enlighten me please.

This response is usually triggered by the conscious and/or unconscious realisation that an individual is going to die and there are no more possible routes of escape (like running away or fighting). I do believe that this may be the bodies last response before death... and the mental dissociation that usually occurs along with this response may be designed such that we painlessly pass on to the hereafter if our bodies efforts to stay alive are not sufficient.

There are likely others here who are far more knowledgeable in this area, and with this response, than I... I know there are Vets and at least one US air force medic in the forum (usafmedic), they may have a better understanding of this phenomena.

Hope this helps resolve some of your confusion,

Avely

[Ozme52]

...further, there are predators that aren't human consumers, but will kill a human in defense of territory or of cubs in a den.

An apparently dead foe will abort the attack... as the defender has won. Does it work? If it never worked, none of us would have it.

Examples of such predators include bears and... oh yes... other humans.

[miss duece]

thanks a lot. you make perfect sense.

[Ozme52]

thanks a lot. you make perfect sense.


...but of course. :cool: