Prejudice?

[rallan]

Right, this isn't really a subject I can say much about since it's never been a problem for me (one of the joys of being on the tail end of Gen-X is that everyone's so blase when you tell them that you're into this sort of thing), and I never even really thought there were peopel with a problem about bdsm until recently when someone on a forum that's got absolutely nothing to do with sex mentioned he was into BDSM and some of the other regular posters there started expressing concern about his mental health and his need for 'abusive relationships'.

So anyway, that sort of completely unexpected response really spun me out, so I figured I'd bring the topic up here where I can get a few anecdotes from people who've been into the scene for a while. Have you guys ever had to deal with prejudices and preconceptions about bdsm, and what sort of effect has it had on your career, friendships, family life, or whatever?




rallan

[Cleo671]

Prejudice directly refers to pre judgement. In relation to the non bdsm related forum that you visited, it can be expected, or it can be expected in places that are more conservative ie in the workplace. In the workplace for example there is a high percentage that won't converse about their sex lives, whether it be homosexual,heterosexual and so on.

Looking at some media representations of bdsm, the fact is the most people are exposed to negative views and a percentage of those people associate elements of bdsm with abuse or abusive relationships for various and many other reasons.

Sometimes it might not be out of prejudice but discomfort, because they might not know anything about it or might feel that they are out of their depth.

Overall, one can expect a certain element of prejudice in almost anything, just because it's bdsm doesn't mean that it's a 'special' case (no offence).

I can't say that I have experienced prejudice in relation to BDSM because I haven't effectively gone out there and 'experienced' the lifestyle to the full, sure there are groups here in Sydney and all types of events, but due to the time/work/family time aspect the way it is right now I can't.

That being said, I don't see the difference in this type of prejudice and other types of 'sexual' prejudice. Personally I have experienced more prejudice and 'indirect' exclusion for other reasons that are perhaps sexually related and culturally related.

The fact that I lost my virginity to someone that wasn't my husband, or the number of sexual partners I've had, when 'most' women in my culture either marry the first man they have a relationship with, or at most have had 5 partners, has created that 'element' of 'ooooooooooooooooooooh she's naughty/a slut/a trollop'.. but with the subject of 'sexual experience', bdsm etc these aspects are aspects that aren't 'overt'(no one can determine these aspects unless you tell them, and to tell people, I mean in R/L not online, you have to develop an element of trust and mutual respect.

I think perhaps the bigger issue of prejudice concerns gay men and women, who do experience prejudice perhaps on an everyday level within our 'so called modern' day society, especially when it's obvious. I've known males that have been attacked by groups of heterosexual men simply because they were known to be gay, or they were effeminate or were seen with their partner somewhere.

One of my high school friends was ostracised by the majority of our school senior year because she was seen kissing another girl on a railway platform on the way back from a nightclub. Yet when heterosexual couples kiss it's 'okay'.

Just because we are living in the new milennium doesn't mean that everyone is 'okay' with everything- some people aren't 'okay' with pre-marital sex, and unfortunately the way that various laws are written they restrict information/literature, such as some content in some stories on this site. Here in Australia we have a federal law that only legalises 'non violent erotica', so BDSM or similar elements that are seen in these stories are completely 'out' when it comes to publishing literature and I'm sure it's the same in many other countries). However the fact that the internet exists enables information on the subject is beneficial in the long term.

so in summary.. prejudice exists across the board.

[-angelstar-]

i think, as long as you arent conforming to what the majority thinks is the norm, you will suffer from some degree of prejudice.

homosexuals are discriminated against in most places, some more openly then others. a fair amount of them are normal people, but for their sexual preference. once people find out about their different sexual tastes, usually they'll be like 'oh dear, does he fancy me in that sense'. and subconciously, their attitudes and behaviour will change towards that friend of theirs. and in some cases, they'll just drift apart... but sometimes, they will come to realise that no, he's still my friend, just that he doesnt like females. so in the end, it all boils down to the mentality of the person on the other end of the stick.

likewise, i think this kind of 'being looked at with concern' when you tell people you're into BDSM, is the same as the way people look upon you when you tell them 'i'm a homosexual' for instance. its the same kind of prejudice, discrimination, whatever name you want to give it.

this is because, people feel safe when they're in the majority. so anything out of the majority, they look at, as possibly bad, abnormal. its out of their 'safe zone' so they're uncomfortable with it. and once they arent comfortable with it, they try to classify it as bad or something to that tune.

that said. i have not and will not, tell anyone of my interests in this area :p purely because i dont ever want to be made to feel 'abnormal'. if i'm gonna feel abnormal its gonna have to be by my own choice, not because people cant accept me. it is kinda sad in a way, cos i have to keep this part of me private, but i guess its the price i have to pay :p

so i have a question here. what if, you fall in love with someone, who you arent sure whether he is into this as well? will you bring it up? how will you bring it up? and... what if he is totally against it? will you still stay with him? or move on and hope to find someone who can accept this side of you? :p

[slavelucy]

Originally posted by -angelstar-
people feel safe when they're in the majority. so anything out of the majority

i think you are probably right there -angelstar-, i think people do tend to feel a certain protection from being in the majority, probably because it sanctions whatever it may be as being 'ok' or 'normal'.

i think part of the cause of prejudice towards BDSM is tho sort of particular to BDSM, in that misunderstandings and misinterpretations of what BDSM is seems almost inevitable. Whether this be through the media (the number of crime drama's i have seen wherein the perpetrator turns out to be into BDSM is startling!) or whether it is just the nature of the beast as it were (in that many of the issues or nuances in BDSM are sometimes difficult for people who are INTO it to understand, let alone the uninitiated), i don't know. i am not however saying it is therefore 'ok' to be prejudiced towards it or people involved in it, more that i can see how the misconstrued views come about.

Also, -angelstar-, i LOVE your avatar!

sl

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Ever heard the saying "One bad apple spoils the bunch?" Just one person can ruin it for many others. As an example, one person is arrested for rape and kidnapping and turns out to own several sex toys, magazines on bondage, and has a flogger or two hung up in his basement. He is immediately branded a pervert and a sadist and possibly a practitioner of BDSM. However, by the definitions, I just gave, we know he is not a practitioner of BDSM. A pervert, yes. A sadist, quite possibly. But a practitioner of our normal lifestyle? No way. He tossed out the two golden rules of BDSM when he chose to kidnap someone and rape them.

What two rules did our hypothetical nuisance disregard?

"Be respectful"

"Safe, sane, and consentual."

That's right, kiddos. Those are the two biggies. Those are the only two rules that pretty much everyone in the BDSM communities will agree upon. "Be respectful" doesn't mean you have to respect your slave as a slave, but it does mean you must be mindful of the fact that she is still a human and she is still a person. She has the right to have at least her life and safety respected. "Safe, sane, and consentual" means you must take your safety and the safety of your partner into consideration at all times. You must maintain a rational frame of mine, preferably free of mind-altering substances while practicing. And you must have consent, otherwise its abuse at best and rape at the worst.

Notice I used the word must in every one of those statement. That's because there is no leeway allowed in these rules. You must abide by them. They are the only two actual rules we have and they are the only things separating you from the kidnapping, raping pervert that ruins it for the rest of us.


Excerpt taken from What is BDSM? by BDSM_Tourguide (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121)

It's been commonly believed since the time of deSade that all sadists and masochists are deranged. deSade was viewed by the community at large as being completely insane because of his perverse tastes. The real reason for this is because his tastes ran outside of the ordinary. As has been suggested in this thread, that is never a good thing.

So, now, despite the best efforts of some members of our community, we are judged by our worst images possible. We are not judged for the tens of thousands of doctors, lawyers and professionals that safely practice BDSM in the privacy of their own homes or in the privacy of terribly expensive S&M clubs. We are judged by the one psycho asshole that kidnaps, rapes and kills someone and has bondage equipment in their basement. That is the image most people know as BDSM.

So, until our social conscience allows for people to judge things more deeply than just looking at the surface (and that is unlikely to happen anytime soon), we will continue to be judged by the worst examples and not the best.

[MrJerseyGuy]

I'm inclined to agree with angelstar. Anything that isn't mainstream is always looked at with a degree of prejudice by the "majority". Doesn't matter much if its race, religeon, sexual preference or sexual "difference". I just try to keep it in perspective. There are very few opinions that matter to me. Mine and my partners are the ones that count the most...and we are having the time of our lives. What anybody else thinks really doesn't matter worth a damn to me.

[reverie35]

Anglestar "So i have a question here. what if, you fall in love with someone, who you arent sure whether he is into this as well? will you bring it up? how will you bring it up? and... what if he is totally against it? will you still stay with him? or move on and hope to find someone who can accept this side of you?

You need to be so much in love that it will overcome a lifetime of sexual frustration for both people. Anglestar will not get the stimulation she requires and probably will not be able to give back the kind of stimulation that the partner requires.

How do I know? I been living with a partner that I love but who does not understand BDSM, and I cannot deliver on her need for romantic sex for 34 years.

[-angelstar-]

oh. but does the fact that you two have been together for so long, mean anything? i dunno. i'm just trying to figure out things before i find myself in a situation like i just described. :p informed decisions are much better to make.

i mean, if you really love someone, and you two are very happy together yadda yadda yadda, and the only thing that's not right is the difference in sexual preference.... is it an extremely huge sacrifice to make?

i dunno. but if you give up that person in order to try to find someone else like him/her but shares your sexual preference... what if, you dont manage to do so?

is this simply a case of, you cant have your cake and eat it? or is it a matter of what is more important to you. cos i guess, you can still have normal simple sex... just that you dont really urm get satisfied...

i dunno. tough decision to make isnt it.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Anyone can go to a bar, pick someone up and have one night of sex with them, but not everyone can maintain a marriage or relationship for five, ten, twenty or forty or more years.

The difference is commitment. In the psychological sense, love is made up of three components: Romance, passion and commitment. When a relationship has all three components, we call it unconditional love. You can have all the passion in the world, but without commitment, you're not likely to enter into a loving, caring relationship. Likewise, you can be very commited, but without romance, you're likely to feel like something is "missing" from your relationship and are typically left wanting.

This is quite off-topic for this thread, but it does help to explain the systems within which relationships are formed.

The more correct thing to do, and I'm not saying reverie35 is wrong, is to look for someone in the beginning of the relationship that suits your desires and needs. To "fall in love" with someone because they are pretty or they have money or because they are passionate is a flawed system. However, to believe you can enter into a relationship with someone that doesn't quite suit you and then expect them to change for you is far more flawed.

I understand that relationships and people evolve over time and with this evolution comes the idea to try new things or to do things differently than you have been used to. There's nothing wrong with that, but one cannot expect one's partner to feel similarly. When you begin your relationship with someone that understands what you are looking for and what your expectations are, then you vastly improve the chances of success in the relationahip and the chances of being satisfied later down the road.

Many people do not understand that they want a BDSM relationship until after they have had several of their relationships fail. It isn't until the "discover" BDSM and their dominant or submissive side that they really begin to have relationships in which they feel truly fulfilled. I know plenty of 40 year olds who are just now learning BDSM and the complexities of the relationships they want. I've had people tell me that, if they'd known at 20 that they'd wanted to be submissive, they wouldn't be divorced at 40 and looking for the right person again.

It's about understanding yourself and your needs as well as those of your partner.

Not that this line of reasoning has anything to do with the original question of social acceptance for BDSM practitioners.

[woodsman'sgame]

Social acceptance for BDSM? It won't happen in my lifetime.
It took me a long time to reconcile myself to it, and I enjoy it! I will never expect those around me to accept it, so I certainly won't tell them about it.

As far as having a partner who isn't into BDSM and you are, that is difficult. For many years I didn't speak to my husband openly about my feelings because I was afraid to let him know my
"perversion." We dabbled in it lightly from time to time, but nothing serious. After 28 years and after accepting this in myself, I let him know exactly how I felt. I was lucky. He accepted it, but I would have stayed with him even if he hadn't. There are more important things than specific kinds of sex in a marriage.
If you aren't a 24/7 Dom or sub. giving up that need in your relationship is not that big a sacrifice.
If being a Dom or sub is an essential part of you, then that's another story.
If you find someone who enjoys it as much as you, and also have the other qualities you seek, then you are truly lucky.

[Jones, Nikka]

Prejudice? You bet! As liberal as our society may be, people are always afraid of what they do not know and they are terrorized by the idea of being different.
I know that if my bdsm activities were ever known ouside of my home I would be a victim of prejudice and discrimmination. You see, I am a teacher, I love working with kids and you would be hard pressed to find anyone more protective of young people than myself. Yet every parent in my school would come unglued if they knew what I do in my private time. I would probably lose my job and tha chance of ever working with kids ever again.
This in a country where a former Prime Minister said that "The state has no businness in the bedrooms of the nation"

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Another worthwhile thread to give a little :bump: and get it going again.