Question about Psychology of BDSM (with apologies) [Archive]

Mumei

12-10-2006, 10:28 PM

I've never had the opportunity to engage in BDSM type activities, but such activities make up almost all my fantasies.

I don't know if I count as being "into BDSM" by the standards of people who actually practice the lifestyle, but anyway, the fantasies and desires are there.

I am puzzled by this. I can't for the life of me figure out why it should be that I have these kinds of desires. And I've had them ever since I can remember--since before I understood what sex is!*

I'm starting this thread to open up discussion of theories of the psychology and psychological origin of this kind of thing. Is it just that "there are different kind of people in the world?" Or are there particular kinds of events or childhoods or whatever that are particularly likely to produce a, shall we say, "BDSM friendly" sort of person? Are there particular personality types drawn to BDSM activities?

My own personal motivation is just to work through my perplexity over this (what I encounter as an) odd fact about myself. I simply can't account for the kinds of thoughts that go through my head in connection with sex. I figure a discussion like this might help, or might help me get over any need to work through the perplexity.

But my personal motivation for this post shouldn't control the thread. I'm not here just to "talk about me" so much as to hear what people think about the topics I'm bringing up.

Mumei

*That may seem strange, but I should clarify, my fantasies dating before my discovery of the nature of sex did not involve explicitly sexual acts. But they involved bondage and pain--both the giving and recieving thereof--as well as slavery and a sort of "fetishizing" (if that's the right word) of the notion of a challenge to one's endurance. And despite the lack of actual "sex acts" in these pre-sex fantasies, they were clearly sources of a sexual kind of pleasure for me.

TomOfSweden

12-11-2006, 12:11 AM

Maybe just maybe, you are confused because you live your life after a moral code that doesn't aply to humans. Free your mind and I'm sure you'll understand. Read a little Nietzsche, Lacan, Focault and Deleuze. And I think it will become a lot clearer.

Normality and mental sanity is a myth. There is no natural equilibrium for the human mind where we are in harmony. And there's plenty of instincts that drive us forward.

edit: and above all nobody really knows what it is that makes us pervy. Psychology isn't really a science. They're all just guessing. So what ever feels good for you, probably is what you should be doing.

karin

12-11-2006, 01:18 AM

'normalcy' so to speak within socialital groups differ from area to area..country to country. BDSM is a very wide-scoped spectrum of many activities that people enjoy. many reasons for people wanting to hurt..or be hurt...abound. almost as many as there are of us that practice. and then the non-painful side of BDSM or D/s. i myself lived in a very D/s marriage for many years...having no clue that thats' what it was. no kink...just..me waiting on him hand and foot. seemed natural. i digress.

from the words i read from you...it seems you have more than a passing interest. where did those thoughts come from? only you can answer that. you are not 'weird' or 'wrong' or 'broken'. i can't begin to imagine how many non BDSM couples enjoy a swat on the ass during sex. it heightens sensations. some of us...just take it to deeper levels.

if you want to pm me..please feel free...

i'm a shrink LOL *lookin' at Tom hard* hey....no one said it was a science. its alllllllllll about listening *winks*

TomOfSweden

12-11-2006, 01:48 AM

'normalcy' so to speak within socialital groups differ from area to area..country to country.

I think it's more interesting to figure out if there is anybody at all who lives up to the normal "image". I've had a pretty active sex-life in my not so short life, and either I've been just plain lucky, or all women/people are really into BDSM. D/s is the norm. It's how we are wired. We may not all use the BDSM lingo, but sex with no element of domination I don't think anybody would like. Not really.

Sure there are a lot of people that are too scared to live out there fantasies. But that doesn't make them less into BDSM. Just less into life in general, not more normal.

Isn't that so?

Ozme52

12-11-2006, 02:17 AM

Caveman moog... strong. Kill antelope. Feed clan.
Protect cavegirl ockaocka. She no challenge moog, make moog happy.
Moog happy, he let ockaocka sleep near him... Moog snore... sound like cave lion, keep jackels away from cave. ockaocka happy.

ockaocka put ugh-ugh weed in moog's soup... taste bad. moog cuff ockaocka... she sorry. he forgive. make ockaocka happy.

Sir_G

12-11-2006, 02:31 AM

karin

12-11-2006, 02:54 AM

Ozme....absolutely...'nuff said *grins...wanders off*

Mumei

12-11-2006, 11:43 AM

Thanks for the replies so far. But I think I've miscommunicated. I am not concerned that my fantasies are not "normal." "Normalcy" is not a value for me.

I take it the way you guys have interpreted my original post is as saying something like "In every other way, I'm normal, so why am I not normal in my sex fantasy life?" I take it this is how you read what I called my "perplexity." But that was not what I meant. Rather, its just that whereas pretty much everything else I know about myself I am able to integrate into a coherent picture or story about myself, my sex fantasy life stands apart. Its like that constitutes a story wholly unrelated to the story that makes up my public and social life. This is what perplexes me. I've integrated everything together, except for this one thing. Yet there's no denying: It's all me.

Also, I should note, I do not find in myself any particularly strong desire to integrate this further aspect of myself into the larger story of myself. That is, in fact, a little perplexing in itself. But there it is.

TomofSweden, you can probably replace my talk of "story" above with some appropriate locution concerning "interpretation," and you'll see that Nietzsche's thought has indeed already done some work in helping me articulate the position I find myself in. The other authors you mentioned, I have not read. But I hope you see now that my concern isn't for "normalcy" but rather I simply am (as I said in my OP) perplexed by the situation in which I find myself, and interested in working through that perplexity somehow. I have no preconceptions as to what the end of such a working-through should look like.

Next topic:

I do not understand Ozme's post and the ones following upon it. What is it you guys are saying is "true" about the situation he depicts? The situation does not appear to me to be appealing at all. (I say this both as my "public" "self" and as the "self" who fantasizes.) Does this mean that I've not really got BDSM in mind after all?

Mumei

Psynymph

12-11-2006, 12:19 PM

Mumei, darling, stop trying to fit yourself into a box thats easily defined.

thats almost impossible to do these days. whatever works for you, works for you. you are the only person who you truly have to answer too.

i believe Ozme is trying to say that acts of Dominance and submission come from our baser instincts. at least well thats what i got from His post.

fantassy

12-11-2006, 12:31 PM

What an awesome first post, Mumei! Should lead to some interesting thoughts. My bdsm interest totally doesn't fit with the rest of my views of myself as a strong, independent, intelligent, equal (if not superior) woman. Actually, those are not just my views, that is who I am. In most of my life, I am all about women having equal opportunities and mental abilities and not sacrificing their lives for men. So where does the desire to submit come from? Why does submission increase my pleasure? Perhaps it is strength seeking strength in another. Perhaps it is a safe way (since my bdsm interest is strictly limited to the bedroom) to relax and take a break from being the person I demand of myself. Perhaps Ozme is right, and a bit of the cavewoman who sought safety by submitting to the caveman still exists in my dna and seeks release in this limited way. I don't know, but I sure am interested to learn what others think - especially the resident shrinks. But don't worry, Mumie, just because the caveman scenario turns you off (it totally turns me off), that bdsm isn't for you. There seems to be as many bsdm variations as there are bsdm relationship. Take as much or as little as works for you.

fantassy

Mumei

12-11-2006, 12:47 PM

Mumei, darling, stop trying to fit yourself into a box thats easily defined.

Psynymph, sweetie, that's not what I'm trying to do at all. :) (Why did you think I was?)

thats almost impossible to do these days. whatever works for you, works for you. you are the only person who you truly have to answer too.

I agree with this. (Why did you think I wouldn't?)

i believe Ozme is trying to say that acts of Dominance and submission come from our baser instincts. at least well thats what i got from His post.

Who says they're "baser"?

mumei

Mumei

12-11-2006, 12:48 PM

fantassy, I appreciated your post. Sorry I don't have anything more substantive to say about it.

mumei

What an awesome first post, Mumei! Should lead to some interesting thoughts. My bdsm interest totally doesn't fit with the rest of my views of myself as a strong, independent, intelligent, equal (if not superior) woman. Actually, those are not just my views, that is who I am. In most of my life, I am all about women having equal opportunities and mental abilities and not sacrificing their lives for men. So where does the desire to submit come from? Why does submission increase my pleasure? Perhaps it is strength seeking strength in another. Perhaps it is a safe way (since my bdsm interest is strictly limited to the bedroom) to relax and take a break from being the person I demand of myself. Perhaps Ozme is right, and a bit of the cavewoman who sought safety by submitting to the caveman still exists in my dna and seeks release in this limited way. I don't know, but I sure am interested to learn what others think - especially the resident shrinks. But don't worry, Mumie, just because the caveman scenario turns you off (it totally turns me off), that bdsm isn't for you. There seems to be as many bsdm variations as there are bsdm relationship. Take as much or as little as works for you.

fantassy

karin

12-11-2006, 12:50 PM

um...people took their time to think this thru for you....and got picked apart......*leaves this alone*

Psynymph

12-11-2006, 12:53 PM

karin i don't think mumei is picking us apart directly, just our opinions.....

*laughs* no big deal, mumei is trying to start a debate.....

karin

12-11-2006, 12:59 PM

i see that psy...soooooooo not going there..*chuckles* perhaps a specific question would be more in order since her rather ambiguous monologue is leaving us all answering 'wrong'

TomOfSweden

12-11-2006, 02:28 PM

TomofSweden, you can probably replace my talk of "story" above with some appropriate locution concerning "interpretation," and you'll see that Nietzsche's thought has indeed already done some work in helping me articulate the position I find myself in. The other authors you mentioned, I have not read. But I hope you see now that my concern isn't for "normalcy" but rather I simply am (as I said in my OP) perplexed by the situation in which I find myself, and interested in working through that perplexity somehow. I have no preconceptions as to what the end of such a working-through should look like.

Well, I think understanding human nature is the key to being less perplexed. I think that having a submissive nature is what most people are. That's just how the world works.

Next topic:

I do not understand Ozme's post and the ones following upon it. What is it you guys are saying is "true" about the situation he depicts? The situation does not appear to me to be appealing at all. (I say this both as my "public" "self" and as the "self" who fantasizes.) Does this mean that I've not really got BDSM in mind after all?

Mumei

Being vague is only a trick to cover up superficiality. Always. This thing that men protect the family, work and the woman is submissive at home is 100% myth created in the 40'ies. It's got nothing to do with basic human behaviour and has no basis in history. It's easy to find out if you spend some time studying. Sorry about being such an abrasive idiot here. But I couldn't find any way of formulating this kindly. Reinforcing false mythic images which have never been true really gets to me.

This is all covered by Focault. It's his main thing. Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault). But all modern philosophers share this view on this. This is just the continuation of the old Christian moral system we inherited, and which had pretty much died out by WWI had been replaced by new moral systems. Fear of god wasn't working. But it isn't a flaw in Christianity, we probably had the same moral codes in the religions before Christianity, that it simply took over.

The main features are.
Original sin - basicaly, we're all flawed and are no good no matter how hard we try. This is still pervasive in our culture. No matter if we're atheist or not.

Satan - We need an evil threatening other that defines us. ie what we're not. This was replaced by comunism, disease, radioctivity, drugs and so on depending on where you live. Different countries have their own Satans.

Garden of Eden/the noble savage - Humanity used to be better and now we're corrupted. We have to fight this corruption and return to naturalness.

Just take a thing like comunism. The maths doesn't stack up. Nobody ever who worked on it could have thought it was a good idea. It didn't matter. It wasn't a economic system. It's just Christianity in a new skin. All utopian ideologies are all about returning to the Garden of Eden where there exists no hate or greed.

The nuclear family was a similar construction to replace religion. It's original sin, all over again. It's a model of a family which very few people can live up to, which is the key to understand it. Women who didn't find a good man to take care of her was to feel guilty about it. Men who didn't find a good housewife and couldn't afford a nice car was similarly suposed to feel guilty about it. It's god nothing to do with any external force creating this, but a need in our culture. We have been used to this so long that if we don't have this, we create it superficially.

In the old European world the family was mostly a economic institution where both parties worked and the husband had fun sex with prostitutes. He had children with his wife. Most people lived in very cramped housing, and nobody ever had any private life. Cooperation with neighbours and family was vital for survival. Above all, mortality was very high so one parent families where very common. See, nuclear family is all just myth. We couldn't even begin to relate to that world today.

Mumei

12-11-2006, 04:04 PM

Sorry, I'm not trying to debate anything.

If it seems like I'm correcting people on some things, its not because its important to me to be "right" about something, but rather, I'm trying to clarify just what it is my OP is asking. It seems its been misunderstood, and what better way is there to clarify it than by addressing those misunderstandings?

The crux of the misunderstanding seems to be that people are reading some stereotypes into it. Examples include: People have told me not to worry about whether I'm normal, not to try to fit myself into an easily defined box, and that I shouldn't think I have to answer to anyone but myself. The thing is, I don't care whether I'm normal (and don't see where I've implied that I do), I don't believe I do or should fit inside an easily defined box (and don't see where I've implied otherwise,) and don't believe I ultimately must answer to anyone (actually, in point of fact, not even to myself) (and I don't see where I've implied otherwise).

I think the things people are saying are fine and interesting, but inasmuch as while saying them, people are sometimes directing advice towards me, and inasmuch as I assume that when directing advice towards me, they would prefer the advice to be based on accurate suppositions about me, I think its in everyone's interest to clear up the kinds of misunderstandings I've been highlighting.

But as I said in my original post, my point is actually not to seek advice, but rather, just to hear what people think about the topic. Advice is fine and welcome, as well. But when offered, I'll say something about how well it applies to my situation. An offerer of advice would value such information.

Thanks again for the replies!

mumei

Mumei

12-11-2006, 04:12 PM

Thanks for your comments, TomOfSweden. I also don't think the idea of "man as boss, woman as servant" is particularly "natural" or necessitated by any real "need." Your observations seemed to me to be on the mark.

(I mean, how could we make sense of the widespread (one might even say "normal") existence of fantasies by men of being dominated by females? Why isn't this this just as natural or instinctive?)

Regarding something else you said, though, I'm not sure I'd say most people have a purely submissive nature. In my experience, everybody's got both, and everybody's got different attitudes towards their posession of each. Different outlets for the expression of each. We try to be masters in some contexts, slaves in others, and we do a weird sort of jumble of both in a lot of contexts. Well, anyway, I've discovered this is true of myself, and it makes sense of a lot of things I see.

Thanks again

(Lest others accuse me of "debating" in this post, to be clear, my intention here is simply to articulate my view. If it issues in a disagreement, discussion can ensue, or it can be forestalled. I'm happy either way. Articulation is what I'm after. It helps (me) work through perplexity. :blurp_ani

mumei

Mumei

12-11-2006, 04:19 PM

i see that psy...soooooooo not going there..*chuckles* perhaps a specific question would be more in order since her rather ambiguous monologue is leaving us all answering 'wrong'

I hope my previous-but-one post has clarified how it is that I don't mean to say people are simply "answering wrong."

As to a specific question, maybe this from my OP can suffice:

I'm starting this thread to open up discussion of theories of the psychology and psychological origin of this kind of thing. Is it just that "there are different kind of people in the world?" Or are there particular kinds of events or childhoods or whatever that are particularly likely to produce a, shall we say, "BDSM friendly" sort of person? Are there particular personality types drawn to BDSM activities?

I don't mean to limit the thread to the questions quoted here, but they can serve as a nice specific starting place if the need arises.

mumei

Qmoq

12-11-2006, 05:29 PM

Mumei

12-11-2006, 05:50 PM

I will say something scary in turn:

Say someone is traumatized through physical or sexual abuse.

Say this person relives that abuse in his/her relationships as an adult.

Say, though, that the "relived" experience is (or strives to be) in a context of trust and love, as opposed to the original experience which was in a context of pure fear and alienation?

Say, even, that there is an unmistakable psychological connection between the original experience and the relived experiences.

Then my question is: Is it necessarily bad to pursue such relived experiences? Mightn't such relationships be just as "healthy" as any other? (I.e., as "healthy" as non-bdsm-y relationships, and as "healthy" as bdsm-y relationships not rooted in past abuse?)

I mean, when you put it this way, it doesn't sound so bad: "I've found a way to experience what once was a source of suffering and trauma for me, in a new way, a way genuinely formed out of love, respect and trust."

Can there be other, non-controversial examples of something like this being regarded as healthy and good? Are there any cases where we tend to "naturally, normally" think of reliving something in a new and better context as something worth pursuing?

mumei

moptop

12-11-2006, 06:41 PM

It is not bad to pursue any relationship where you and your partner or partners are carrying out your activities in an atmosphere "genuinely formed out of love, respect and trust"

I did actually write you a huge great long philosphical musing about the question you first posted - what makes us psychologically be D/s or into BDSM. You have since posted this, which is a whole new kettle of fish - so I didn't post it.

Certainly: if someone has gone through a traumatic or unhealthy experience, and they sublimate it and then become turned on by it, but consciously, carefully, with consent from others if others are involved, then it is healthy. Why not? You could also look at it as being the best way to learn from a bad experience: to re-live it, and turn it into something good. From that, one would become, I think, a better and stronger person. Perhaps one would also learn to forgive the people involved in the previous events.

What I suppose could be considered unhealthy is if re-playing the previous events was the only way that person could get pleasure: I would not consider that healthy, because it sounds to me to be incomplete. However, again, if they are happy (i.e. feel completed) with that, and if they find a partner/partners who are equally fulfilled by it, then just because it doesn't sound healthy to me doesn't mean it's not. I would hope, for that person's sake, however, that they would with time come out of the trauma-fetish cycle (if fetish is the right term), so that they can learn to enjoy more.

I can't think of any other examples off hand.

Mumei

12-11-2006, 08:03 PM

I did actually write you a huge great long philosphical musing about the question you first posted - what makes us psychologically be D/s or into BDSM. You have since posted this, which is a whole new kettle of fish - so I didn't post it.

Do you still have a copy of that other post? (As I'd be interested in seeing it as well.)

mumei

StillBehindBlueEyes

12-11-2006, 09:51 PM

Karin this is what I so love about this stuff. All us Subbies are so damn strong and opinionated. I'm serious I just love that it's ok for me to be who I am but still be in need of a master and some pain. (Sorry if this isn't directily related to the thread Mumei)

arwcuw

12-11-2006, 09:52 PM

*comes back from unexpected sabbatical*

Mumei, you seem to be in a similar situation to the one I've been in for the past year. I've had bondage fantasies since early childhood, since before I knew what sex was, and was in total denial about it even after I started masturbating in adolescence. It was only in the past two years (since my 17th birthday) that I've been able to admit to myself and a few friends that I have a fetish. One of my biggest projects after this voyage of self-acceptance has been a quest to discover WHY?!

I knew that a lot of people seem to develop fetishes due to sexual repression in childhood, but my parents weren't uptight at all, so it couldn't have been that. I also knew that a lot of people seem to develop an interest in BDSM after sexual abuse, but that's also impossible- I've never been abused. My search for a concrete reason has even branched into past lives, for lack of anywhere else to look.

But more and more, I'm realizing that there's no single concrete explanation for why I'm aroused by (and only by) bondage. I'm still interested in finding an explanation, but I'm not so worried about it anymore. I'm more open to the idea that there are multiple factors at work.

If you're just burning with curiosity about where your desires originated, you could consider seeing a therapist or councilor of some kind. There are some who specialize in sexual deviance. That would cost money, though.

One more comment: the BDSM community isn't in the business of excluding people. Nobody should tell you that you're not "into BDSM" simply because of something you haven't done or something you wouldn't enjoy or a fantasy you haven't had. Anyone with any interest in any aspect of BDSM can claim to be "into BDSM" without being hounded out of the forum.

*slinks back into the shadows*

TomOfSweden

12-12-2006, 06:34 AM

I hate to generalise, but there does seem to be a higher proportion of female submissives than guy submissives.

And... this is where it gets very scary... the female submissives tend to have a high proportion (though the proportion may be well less than 50%) of gals who had a traumatic incident in their past. At that point it becomes kinda scary and I go off and have a nap.

Qmoq xx

Well everybody has had something traumatic in their past. It doesn't explain anything. It's not even the severity of the trauma that's important. I've got a close friend who had the most horiffic and degrading childhood imaginable. He's not into BDSM at all. Sure, he's got issues but nothing serious. I think dwelling on childhood trauma, is mostly just about trying to justify "abnormal" behaviour. If we discard "normalcy" as a concept then it all becomes a whole lot simpler. We just are.

There are other much simpler explanations why some people end up enjoying submissivness, which I find a lot more compelling which are logical.

moral-man

12-16-2006, 07:47 PM

soft touches, tickling or the infliction of pain are all sensual expereiences alike and the brain can circumstancually interpret each of them as pleasure. Similarly ceratin people will experience a high from beeing in a dominant or a submissive position. Its natural, and you don't need Nietzsche to explain such sexual fancies.

However, when it comes to the point that your whole life evolves around your sexual fanatsies (i.e. the stage when partners start to introduce one another other as master and pet and sleep in each others cages) then I'd say that you have reached a stage of perversion and thats just not healthy. Nietsche might not agree, but then maybe there is a reason why he had a mental break down.

fantassy

12-16-2006, 09:12 PM

you do realize this is a bdsm forum, right?

moral-man

12-17-2006, 05:05 PM

you do realize this is a bdsm forum, right?

well, I would have felt kinda weird posting such remarks in a cooking forum.

Why are asking anyway?

moptop

12-17-2006, 05:14 PM

Mumei, I'm afraid I don't have a copy of the post I didn't post - I was writing it direct, and then saw you'd put in your new post as I previewed, and just zapped it. Not at this moment, but at some point I may try to put my thoughts down again - but it's not easy! I would fundamentally agree with Tom again - 'We just are'. But I can certainly argue with myself about it!

moptop

12-17-2006, 05:19 PM

However, when it comes to the point that your whole life evolves around your sexual fanatsies (i.e. the stage when partners start to introduce one another other as master and pet and sleep in each others cages) then I'd say that you have reached a stage of perversion

And in response to fantassy - hey guys, we all have our limits. moral-man, I happen to agree with your limits, but I don't feel I have the right to describe people who take things further than me as being perverse: that is, assuming that perverse is taken to be a negative thing, and something that you feel is 'wrong'. Other people who don't do what I do would describe me as perverse, and I don't think I am! so I have to respect that just because something exceeds my limits, I do not have the right to criticise it in others. I do have the right to say that it makes me feel bad and I don't like the idea for me, of course.

Hope that makes sense.

TomOfSweden

12-18-2006, 11:00 AM

moral-man

12-18-2006, 06:14 PM

And in response to fantassy - hey guys, we all have our limits. moral-man, I happen to agree with your limits, but I don't feel I have the right to describe people who take things further than me as being perverse: that is, assuming that perverse is taken to be a negative thing, and something that you feel is 'wrong'. Other people who don't do what I do would describe me as perverse, and I don't think I am! so I have to respect that just because something exceeds my limits, I do not have the right to criticise it in others. I do have the right to say that it makes me feel bad and I don't like the idea for me, of course.

Hope that makes sense.

You make perfect sense

But please don't get me wrong, when I say perverse all I'm implying is that that living such a life deviates severely from social and communal behaviour patterns which are seen as normal and favourable in our society. Although you understanably assumed so, I am not making a moral judgement and I don't wish to criticise.

however, I am concerned about the dangers that such a lifesyles may have to the individuals that follow them. I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy.

In regards to Tom's rquest, I am afraid I have no definate answer for what the purpose of life is. I suppose each person may has its individual purpose and responsbilities. Nevertheless, I believe that our sexual urges can influence our way of thinking and can make us act contrary to what we believe or know is right. For that reason I don't think that we could possibly find the meaning in our lives by mindlessly obeying to them and for that reaosn I Personally think that sexual fanatsies are something we should act out with our partners in our bedrooms, and not in our socal life.

moral-man

12-18-2006, 06:18 PM

But well, that's just my point of view

caged

01-09-2007, 02:18 PM

moral-man's comments are interesting.. I have two things to say about them and then will consider my own thoughts on why I might be submissive.

1. I think moral-man is close to the truth - dictionary-definition-wise at least - regarding what makes something a perversion. I believe (could be wrong) that clinically, sexual fetishes are considered 'perversions' if they become the ONLY way in which someone can get sexual pleasure/satisfaction.

2. Having said that, I think it is off the mark to suggest that people who very much live out a dom/sub lifestyle are taking their sexual activities out of the bedroom in an unhealthy way. I don't think it is even unusual. After all, why do couples get together? Because they are sexually attracted and want to fuck one another. Isn't it taking that out of the bedroom when they move in together, buy furnishings, go to the cinema... they are living out a life entwined socially, basically because they wanted to be lovers.

3. I am generally baffled as to my own submissiveness. I wasn't abused. I have never been in a big, powerful job giving orders all day and therefore hankering to give up power for a change. I do seem to have an aversion to making decisions in general life at times... but since I have had submissive fantasies from a very young age, I can't really link it to adult personality traits that I have developed. Perhaps it's something to do with parents (who were very liberal), heave only knows....

TomOfSweden

01-10-2007, 12:35 AM

In regards to Tom's rquest, I am afraid I have no definate answer for what the purpose of life is. I suppose each person may has its individual purpose and responsbilities. Nevertheless, I believe that our sexual urges can influence our way of thinking and can make us act contrary to what we believe or know is right. For that reason I don't think that we could possibly find the meaning in our lives by mindlessly obeying to them and for that reaosn I Personally think that sexual fanatsies are something we should act out with our partners in our bedrooms, and not in our socal life.

Who gives this purpose to our lives? Our self or something else? It's relevant because it answers how you reached your conclusion.

Haven't you ever wondered about why it's just that rule-breaking that makes us horny? Doing the forbidden. We're basically just another type of monkey, (primate) and no other monkeys in nature have rules about what kind of sex is acceptable, (Bonobos fuck anything and everybody at any time and in any way). If we take a look at nature, having any rules at all regarding sex, besides consuality is perverse. We are the most perverse animal on the planet, and we on this forum, the so called perverts are following our urges more than any other humans making us, in my humble opinion the least perverted, (ie in conflict with natures design). But then again we're part of nature so I guess anything we do is actually natural and non-perverse, so never mind that.

My point is that there is no right and wrong. All the rules about what is are social constructs most often with very superficial use. Humans aparently love having rules to follow, or we wouldn't have any. And we also love breaking our own rules.

A perfect example was the explosion of Arab music samples in US hip-hop after 9-11. I'm not saying hip-hop is evil or perverse. Islam is in the Western mind forbidden today so it becomes extra exciting no matter how much we try to deny it, (We tend to connect Arabs with Islam even though most muslims aren't Arab). And the records have aparently been selling, so the tactic works.

Following your desires, ie doing things that make you happy I couldn't possibly see anything wrong with. Giving in to lust I wouldn't say is mindlessly following anything. It's denying lust which is mindlessly following the social constructs that any thinking person should see through. Just because most people don't, doesn't make it good, natural, right or non-perverse.

When it comes to sex I don't think any of us are free from the rules that where hammered in at an early age. Either we mindlesly follow them, or we purposefully break them. But free, non of us are.

sub17

01-10-2007, 08:59 PM

I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy.

~ Hi MM.
I've always been submissive, but never realized it until I found a dominant man who took the time to educate me. I don't choose to be a slave (*I'm a sub for now, who knows I might be a slave later*) merely due to my sexual urges. I choose to be submissive because I feel that it's my nature. I enjoy pleasing my man, making him the heartbeat of my life, giving him control. I do have respect for myself because I understand that this is a lifestyle choice for me, and I don't have a need to follow society's norms if I choose not to. That is having a lot of respect for one's personal beliefs and choices isn't it? Also, my man/dom is very, very respectful of me. He still has to make the hard choices, but because he respects me, I respect him. It always is a two way street, just with an understanding of the power-relationship. I've been with regular men who don't understand submissive women and because I didn't understand my own nature and needs, I found myself in bad r/ships, VERY unhealthy. So, to me, the bdsm lifestyle works for my personality, needs, and desires - not just sexually, but overall. It's healthy for me and to me, that's all that really matters. :)

Timberwolf

01-10-2007, 09:44 PM

TomOfSweden

01-11-2007, 12:31 AM

"I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy."

If you truly consider this highlighted section to be factual information, you need to quite seriously re-evaluate your knowledge of what we do.

Respect is everything. It is the very core of what this is.

I also reacted very strongly to that. I make a point of being extremly loving to my slaves. I feel it becomes so much more important in this lifestyle than in vanilla. I take care of my slave, on every level. On every level. I think that's the most important core of a D/s relationship. And my slave in turn takes care of me, in her way. Just as you describe the dominant man you are seeing.

booklet3

01-11-2007, 08:34 AM

I choose to be submissive because I feel that it's my nature. I enjoy pleasing my man, making him the heartbeat of my life, giving him control. I do have respect for myself because I understand that this is a lifestyle choice for me, and I don't have a need to follow society's norms if I choose not to. That is having a lot of respect for one's personal beliefs and choices isn't it?

I can so very much identify with this. To me this might be the core of all human relations or even beyond that, relations with the entire world and all that is in it. The magic word to me is and always will be respect. Any set of rules, moral codes, laws, can never be anything but artificial, man-made and so, will always be compromises, made to fit entire societies, often with hidden agenda's built in. But societies are made up of individuals, of which not even two are alike. To me personally, even trying to universally impose sets of rules upon living creatures is fundamentally unnatural. To me, we as humans are basically the same as other animals. Nobody needs to tell an animal which is the Alfa-male or female, they just are, or establish themselves as such. So I think trying to figure out why you are a sub or a master/mistress, is no use at all, you just are.
Please be aware, that this is nothing but my own personal opinion, which I feel very strongly about, no doubt, but not meant to offence anyone. Just my humble contribution to a very interesting discussion.

booklet3

01-11-2007, 08:39 AM

Oops,

The first part of my post was meant to be a Quote from Sub17's post. Must have done something wrong, sorry about that.

tainted Angel

01-16-2007, 05:17 AM

I'm starting this thread to open up discussion of theories of the psychology and psychological origin of this kind of thing. Is it just that "there are different kind of people in the world?" Or are there particular kinds of events or childhoods or whatever that are particularly likely to produce a, shall we say, "BDSM friendly" sort of person? Are there particular personality types drawn to BDSM activities?

Is BDSM born or made LOL

Sorry I'm not making a funny at the questions that's just the first thing that came to mind, the nature/nurture debate. LOL

Firstly I always had BDSM fantasys, before I knew anything about how things worked and pre sexual as you stated. I never saw them as wrong I think until I took on board societies judgements of 'normal' and 'acceptable' and then I began to question.

As for; are there things in life that make you more BDSM friendly, I believe that everything in life affects your outlook and responses to it. At the risk of going off on a Freudian rant I am one of those subs who has a trauma in her past (don't we all as people not just subs) but then I don't think the truma led me to the lifestyle it has however had some interesting impacts on what I want within it and caused some soul searching.

So my mother was a battered wife, femanist who I loved dearly. I wanted to be a Daddy's girl but my dad was not an emotional bloke unless you count teary apologies for black eyes. Now you can have a field day with the psychology of that (I have) and still come to the conclusion that that isn't why I'm a sub, that is why I'm me. As a sub that is the reason why some of my hard limits are very trivial (poking pointing fingers at chest etc)
It is the reason that I could cry when my Dom tells me that he is proud of me (but I do that anyway to everyone else who says that) Because Daddy never said he was proud. It may be why I am eager to please because anyone who has been in that sort of environemt knows that the eggshells are easier to walk on when you are complient.

I had a lot of issues to face which were two fold 1)How my mother would cringe at my 'giving up my power' and letting a man dominate me after women burned their bra's for rights (misunderstanding of the sub role but hey it's funny) but the biggest was 2) the dealing with the fact that I was asking for a man to hurt me - that is a big head fuc* when you live in a fearful childhood.

A can't remember who posted earlier about herself being a sub in the bedroom and otherwise being the strong, independant maybe a touch superior woman - That is me also. The only psychological exlaination I can come up with for why I want to be submissive is this; I had a disabled sister and I had a lot of responsibility as a child, I was always 'the strong one' who could cope and was fine to be left on her own. I held others up and supported my mother emotionally. I have difficulty letting go and not worrying about others, somebody taking control and bondage give me no choice but to allow that to happen.

Is there a personality type for BDSM, I think so, strong, open people who are happy and comfortable with themselves and willing to explore who they are and how they feel. BDSM is not an easy road to travel it takes strength both sides.

Guest 91108

01-16-2007, 06:02 AM

..
Is there a personality type for BDSM, I think so, strong, open people who are happy and comfortable with themselves and willing to explore who they are and how they feel. BDSM is not an easy road to travel it takes strength both sides.

exactly.. anyone with less probably won't be able to handle it from either side with out ongoing problems. sighs.

lily27

01-16-2007, 07:16 AM

A can't remember who posted earlier about herself being a sub in the bedroom and otherwise being the strong, independant maybe a touch superior woman - That is me also. The only psychological exlaination I can come up with for why I want to be submissive is this; I had a disabled sister and I had a lot of responsibility as a child, I was always 'the strong one' who could cope and was fine to be left on her own. I held others up and supported my mother emotionally. I have difficulty letting go and not worrying about others, somebody taking control and bondage give me no choice but to allow that to happen.

This is so me it is frightening. Except it wasn't a sibling who was disabled, but my mother herself.

I discuss it a little more, and how it relates to my submission here:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showpost.php?p=202400&postcount=37