Gor & largely the Gorean Lifestyle.

[Guest 91108]

OK, I shall start out my tenure as A-Z BDSM with a topic that I am looking into myself.
Perhaps we shall all learn and grow with the input of posted information.

Many places I have read on the net have mentioned Gorean Life or Gorean BDSM.
I became very interested to learn more.
Sadly, I found that many of the sites I found while seeking information were of the more opinionated individuals.
I wished to learn some of the life without the Game aspects of it that I learned really took away from it some.

I think that there is a need within BDSM to understand the whole slave concept.
I am of the opinion that it is a matter of unteaching our societies view of the idea of slave and covert it something entirely different...
I think the Gorean lifestyle is useful in teaching that.

So I introduce this thread.. I shall start it slow and keep in putting information and links

So a General information kickstarter.

Please hop in and add what you can....



Gor, the Counter-Earth, is the alternate-world setting for John Norman's "Chronicles of Gor," a series of 26 novels that combine philosophy, erotica and science fiction.

The customs, terminology and imagery depicted in these books has inspired a related BDSM-influenced subculture. On- and off-line followers of this lifestyle are called Goreans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean

Gorean From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the most general use of the word, Gorean means anything characteristic of the Gor science fiction novels by John Norman. In these novels, the word "Gorean" is used to refer to the fictional counter-earth, to its inhabitants and social customs, and to the particular language which is the most widely-spoken lingua franca in the known inhabited regions of Gor (though other languages are also spoken on the planet).
As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy. While the most conspicuous Gorean departure from mainstream modern norms is that Goreans allow and indeed promote sexual master/slave relationships, many who take the Gorean worldview seriously would insist that being Gorean is not necessarily about either sex or slavery, but about the general Gorean philosophy (so that one would not have to participate in a master/slave lifestyle or relationship in order to be Gorean). Some of this philosophy is concerned with "natural order" and the relations between men and women, which may or may not take the form of a master-and-slave dynamic. Where there is a master/slave relationship, the level at which adherents follow the books varies.
…

Some in BDSM consider the Gorean lifestyle to be a subset of BDSM practices, and find it lacking in that regard. So the mainstream of BDSM practitioners often disdain Goreans because Goreans allegedly reject the ideas of "safe, sane and consensual"/"risk-aware consensual kink", because of the frequent lack of a safe word between Gorean master and slave, or because the almost exclusive male dominant/female submissive dynamic seems to imply that "your kink is not OK" regarding other practices. A reading of the Gorean novels indicates that the author regards other practices, such as female dominance/male submission or homosexuality, as "perversions" of the "natural order".
Serious Goreans, on the other hand, generally deny that they are engaging in "games" or "role-playing", and do not consider the extreme pain or extreme physical or sexual play sometimes practiced in BDSM as part of being Gorean, so that BDSM precautions and BDSM distinctions between "in scene" and "out of scene" are largely unnecessary and irrelevant (though there is still a need for honest communication within a Gorean relationship, as in any other sustained intimate relationship). They do not consider most of what they do to be BDSM, and do not judge themselves according to BDSM standards.

A person living the Gorean lifestyle states that "...BDSM and it's practitioners do as they do in order to fulfill a sexual need or 'kink' in themselves. They are different from Goreans and the lifestyle in that to be Gorean does not just encompass the sexual side of a person but everything else as well. Goreans live by and enforce 'codes of honour' and live by these codes.
Some Goreans do practice BDSM (even though BDSM is not Gorean in itself). These Goreans may or may not use a safeword when involved in BDSM scene play; however, if they do not, then some sort of communication is usually practiced.
Note that Norman's non-fictional sex manual Imaginative Sex presents a series of elaborate fantasy scenarios to be acted out (rather than advocating for a real-world "24/7" lifestyle), and recommends that symbolic substitutes (such as the sound of claps) should be used instead of actual physical chastisements (such as whippings). Most of the scenarios are maledom / femsub, but a few portray men as the slaves of women, and anticipate the eroticised first-person male slave narratives of some of the Gorean novels.
The Gorean identity is founded on home, job, and social order. The 'Three Pillars' of Gorean society are described as 'Homestone, Caste System, and Slavery', but they deserve a wider explanation.

The home is prime of importance to the Gorean, and this applies as much to the city-state of origin to the current residence or camp. 'A man's home in his castle' is translated in Gor to 'Every man is an Ubar within the circle of his sword.' (The Ubar is a war-leader, a General who takes power at a time of crisis, and whose rule is tantamount to tyrant until the crisis is resolved.) The Homestone is held sacred by every city and settlement, and is displayed under guard. Any praise or insult to a Homestone is taken personally by those who live in the city it symbolizes. The theft of a Homestone is the gravest crime, and paradoxically the most honorable enterprise, that any Warrior could undertake.

The Gorean's occupation is formed and informed by their caste. The Caste system establishes the Gorean identity as strongly as homeland. Because of the Gorean's work ethic and pride in caste, all castes are essentially equal. There is little social mobility because of this caste pride and identity; even the Peasant caste uphold their caste codes and firmly believe in their superiority to all other castes. But in actuality a few castes are more equal than the others. Those of High Caste, including Scribes, Warriors, Physicians, Builders and Initiates (holy men) have access to priviledged education and opportunities to leadership. The social order is further consolidated by social edict: "A man who refuses to practice his livelihood or strives to alter status without consent of the Council of High Castes is by definition an outlaw." A Gorean regards the welfare of their caste higher than their own, but in return, the caste provides welfare and charity when a caste member is in need.

The third pillar, 'Slavery'........

[TomOfSweden]

As far as I understand it, it's being a slave 100% where the slave has no rights what so ever. Not even to leave her Master if she gets tired of him. Since consent is a crucial part of BDSM I wouldn't call this BDSM at all. We've all made stupid decisions in life and not being able to break off from the relationship is bad.

[_ID_]

There used to be a Gor Fest in the Oklahoma area every year. I tried to Google it but came up empty. I will see if some people I know have more current information.

[Guest 91108]

I can see what you're saying TomofSweden.

hrm.. When I was first tried to understand the concept of being a slave within BDSM... it seems that many sites pointed towards the Goreans for some links.

While some could argue the linkage to BDSM or not .. this could be true for many things.

I brought it up as a topic to think on and discuss.
It beat gags and some others I considered.

All Things Have ideas which can be inspiring in other areas.

[Ironwulf]

I would highly recommend reading:

Chapter 3 - Gorean Philosophy
Chapter 4 - Gorean Slavery
Chapter 5 - Gor and Traditional BDSM

from the following link - http://www.dreamstrike.com/gorintro.html

It is very well written and while I do not agree with his reference to Earth slaves having the status of animals in Chapter 4 sections 3 and 4. I do recognize his right to see his slaves that way either on Earth or in his online Gorean world.

The problem with the Gorean as well as the BDSM community is that there are so many shades of gray in the style each and everyone of us practice what we believe to be "The Way". Even though I have been involved in both the BDSM and Gorean communities for over 30 years now I would not say that I have found either to represent completely what I personally believe the relationship with my slaves are. I do not believe the Gor books to be some kind of bible for D/s any more then the books of Jay Wiseman.

I believe we all have the right to find what works for each of us just as one must find their own way when it comes to religion. The Gorean way is not bad it is just a different way of approaching the same subject and if it works for you great, if only part of it works for you great.

I agree with a large part of the philosophy outlined in the Chapters noted above but as I also noted there are things I do not agree with. Such is life in the wonderful world of Dominance and submission. :)

[Guest 91108]

thanks ID for your post.

Ironwulf, that is how I view the topic too.
I shall look over the links later this morning , I have not seen those.
yes, we have to choose what is right, and what can work for us as well as know what won't or be ready to lay it aside if it proves harmful.
I like the mix I've settled upon and trying to work it within my husband/wife & Dom/sub relationships.

[Miraculix]

My opinion -to make it short- is that people often misunderstand what John Norman wrote; and the entire style grew out of proportions due to -mainly- the fact that the novels were first written in a time when emancipation (of women) was seen as something novel and -hence- was rejected by many polarized sides of society, specially in the US and western Europe.

True, slaves in the Gorean society are not allowed to leave their Master, the most they can do is ask him to give the slave away or sell him off but I have personally seen Gor Masters give "liberty" (ack, this word sounds so corny after the Gettysburg declaration) to their slaves.

On the other hand, notice that 99% of the slaves that are induced into the Gor lifestyle are women. This oughta tell you something. Gorean lifestyle does not streamline with other cultural waves of this time, such as gay, lesbian, hell! not even with the "smoking-is-not-cool-anymore" movement...

My educated guess is they will survive as a group, and they will -in a couple of centuries- be seen the way we look at Amish people today in New York and Pennsylvannia, albeit, with a pinch of kink and lots of sadistic flavor.

If you feel like venturing into the Gor society -which I do not encourage, but that is not saying I despise it, I simply base myself on a live-and-let-live philosophy, and you don't want to get too close to the fire or you want to stay safe at all times, you can always check out the Gor community in a popular roleplaying game called "Second Life". They have several communities there, I should say virtual communities; and they are pretty welcoming if you dont write "curious", "stereotyped ass" or "rebel without a cause" on your forehead.

Enjoy...

[Guest 91108]

I think my intent has been misconstrued. perhaps my presenting the thread was wrong.

I looked into the goream ideals as a slave limitations & explanation.

I shall post more on this when i have had time to think on it.

[Timberwolf]

I think basing a life philosophy around a *fantasy novel* is, at best, quiestionable.

That's as much as I feel like saying, for now.

[Ironwulf]

I think there is a whole lot of misconception going on in this thread. If I had not outed myself as having a gorean background I do not think anyone would have ever known I was one of those people who have based some of their lifestyle on parts of fantasy books. However to continue with that chain of thought would require moving this into the religion thread.

The gorean world online, which is how most people discover it, is full of wannabes, posers, and jerks just like is found in the online BDSM communities. It is not correct to assume that a gorean slave is owned for life with no chance to be free of a master she does not wish to serve. I know of no master in the gorean style that would hold any slave against her wishes to be set free from her service to him. I can not say the same for the real life BDSM world.

The basic premise of a gorean slave is that she is to be pleasing, and I can tell you that a unhappy slave is not very pleasing and she would be "released" from her collar as soon as the master realized this was not in his power to change.

Of course since goreans are manly men they will cover this failure by selling her off to another master who she thinks will offer her a better chance at being pleasing. Sorry, I was poking fun at the online chat rooms with that part. :rolleyes:

I am not sure what the comments on sadistic goreans comes from unless as I said above it was from witnessing some wannabe etc. in a chat room somewhere, goreans are not sadists at all. That does not mean a girl will not be punished if she needs it, however a gorean slave can be punished in many ways and I find the whip to be the least used method for this task.

I take no pleasure from punishing a girl even though I admit to having a chuckle sometimes in the way they have handled the assigned punishment. Punishment is only given to aid a girls understanding just like a parent must disipline a child when they misbehave or do not follow the rules.

The difference is that the slave knew and agreed to the rules up front before she chose to beg for her collar.

Oh me, I was just going to jump in to say a few words and ended up writing another chapter in this book. :freakout:

[Guest 91108]

I think your post is on target both time , Ironwulf.

seems I picked a good topic .. but put it in the wrong section perhaps.

[His_blizzard]

I think there is a whole lot of misconception going on in this thread. If I had not outed myself as having a gorean background I do not think anyone would have ever known I was one of those people who have based some of their lifestyle on parts of fantasy books. However to continue with that chain of thought would require moving this into the religion thread.
The basic premise of a gorean slave is that she is to be pleasing, and I can tell you that a unhappy slave is not very pleasing and she would be "released" from her collar as soon as the master realized this was not in his power to change.
I am not sure what the comments on sadistic goreans comes from unless as I said above it was from witnessing some wannabe etc. in a chat room somewhere, goreans are not sadists at all. That does not mean a girl will not be punished if she needs it, however a gorean slave can be punished in many ways and I find the whip to be the least used method for this task.
I take no pleasure from punishing a girl even though I admit to having a chuckle sometimes in the way they have handled the assigned punishment. Punishment is only given to aid a girls understanding just like a parent must disipline a child when they misbehave or do not follow the rules.
The difference is that the slave knew and agreed to the rules up front before she chose to beg for her collar.Oh me, I was just going to jump in to say a few words and ended up writing another chapter in this book. :freakout:

Tal and THANK YOU Sir! I was getting hot under my"collar" :mad: reading some of the misconceptions I knew I would find by reading this thread until I saw your post. Again...THANK YOU! What you said is amost exactly what Dragon and I believe.
Master and I choose to live our D/s union using principles from the books. We actually joke and call ourselves "Gorean Lite" and he calls me his kajira-missive. I am not slave but not a free companion either. I am just more Gorean disciplined and trained than some subs from other schools of D/s and BDSM. I am so hoping that Master will come here and add to this thread.
Thank You as well, dear Wolfscout Sir, for giving us, the "other Goreans" a chance to tell our side. Like IronWulf, I also have had to face scorn and criticism when I come out of my Gorean closet. ~blizz!

[Guest 91108]

The sites that I have found on the more serious and workable people involved with the Gorean ideals... have all been much better adapted.

As for fantasy based life .. is BDSM lifestyle much more than making fantasy reality through the use of terminology and concepts?
When I came to this board .. I tended to think of the "out there Goreans" I had already run across as probably similiar to what I'd find here.
Yes , I explored them a little more than I explored BDSM at first. well for years I kept it on a low level interest.. then I came here and most know when the that was.

I like how more is spelled out in the Gorean ways.
Where as I can see where and how things with BDSM can go so wrongly.

It's a choice either way one wishes to go.
I was trying to show that things can be pulled from it to enhance other things.

Gosh.

[Ironwulf]

Thanks blizzard - "Gorean Lite" - I love it. :) :) :)

This is going great Wolfscout, I hope more people join in. Maybe people will read the words and say, ok I see where they are coming from. That will be a good thing for everyone. Worse case is people don't get involved and don't talk about the perceived differences.

I hope no one thinks I am attacking the BDSM community or any person by pointing out the misconceptions when they are posted. Because I am not. I walk my own path which happens to wander through both camps so I do see both sides and have found many things from both sides to take with me on my journey. I hope everyone will do the same.

[Guest 91108]

I have finished reading the link Ironwulf posted in entirety.

Wish I had found that instead of the bunch of scattered and arguing sites that I did find.

My take on it is pulling out information about slaves and how they interact. This is much more finely detailed there.

[tessa]

I know nothing about the Gorean books, lifestyle or mindset. Admittedly, I know little more about the BDsM lifestyle. What I do know and have very strong opinions about is that as responsible, mature, law-abiding (except for laws on sodomy...just can't abide by those) citizens, we all have the right to conduct our lives as we so decide. If the people involved are in agreement with what is going on and are happy doing it, then so be it. And especially in a community such as this, no one should ever feel as if some part of who they happen to be needs to be kept a secret for fear of discrimination in any form! I guess this post's motivation comes from the the comment blizz made about coming "out of the Gorean closet" and facing "scorn and criticism" while doing it...struck a raw nerve, I suppose. I mean no offense with my words. Just hoping that in a world so filled with intolerance and hatred, none of that evil will seep in here as well. :o

To add...Google "real life Gorean perspective". You can sift through the links and read whatever you like. I visited a few different sites and found out a bit more about this unknown-to-me subject.

[Widget]

The Gorean books were one of the first books I had read with an open BDSM theme. I remember being shocked that they were even in the library and I was about 12 at the time. I don't THINK it warped me too badly *snickers*

I find it rather amusing though that there is a whole sub culture of rules based off a book. It is an interesting read and it had some very in my opinion caricature of roles. Idealised men who were mens men, women who are beautiful and craved to obey and if they do have a will of their own they only want a strong dom to rule them. What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I am not disrespecting anyone’s way of validate their lifestyle nor their choice of rites to formalize their choices. I have noticed that many people who claim to follow the Gorean roles can be rather ridged and judgmental towards others who choose to create their own rules and roles.

[Ironwulf]

What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I must admit that it has been awhile since I have read my books and I can not answer your questions as to what happens when goreans get old, if they do, or for that matter where are the children in the books. However I am sure there are many out there that can answer those questions by quoting passages from one of the books.


I find it rather amusing though that there is a whole sub culture of rules based off a book.

Actually it is based off a whole series of books just like the Bible.

The Bible, the Koran, the Torah, etc. are used by many cultures around the world today. Yes, to those outside the influence of the culture that uses the books as a basis for its lifestyle it can appear amusing that others do use them in that way.

The Bible alone has spawned many sub cultures that disagree with each other yet they all use the same book as the basis for their lifestyles.

In a city near where I live we have the headquarters of an entire culture of people who use a sci-fi book written by L. Ron Hubbard as the basis for their lifestyle called Scientology. It has many members like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, etc. who are believers and it is spreading around the world.


I am not disrespecting anyone’s way of validate their lifestyle nor their choice of rites to formalize their choices. I have noticed that many people who claim to follow the Gorean roles can be rather ridged and judgmental towards others who choose to create their own rules and roles.

This part I can address directly as I have seen this first hand many times.

The mere mention of Gor or an interest in it always brings laughs when around the mainstream BDSM community. The true masters of BDSM will line up to try to be the one that can debunk anyone elses ideas of using it as a possible basis in a BDSM lifestyle.

However, that same group of people will not laugh at someone in their group of "real" BDSM'ers who wants to cross dress, practice infantilism, or any number of the different lifestyles which fall under the BDSM umbrella.

Yes, Goreans can be ridged and judgmental towards others. They have faced years and years of persecution from the very people who should have embraced them and invited them into the fold. It seems rather strange to me that if I were to get a sexual kick from balloon play I would not be ridiculed but welcomed by the BDSM community at large, but not so for the followers of the gorean lifestyle.

Some day we as people must realize that everyone has their own path in life and we should not ridicule them for it but congratulate them for finding their way, even when it does not match the way we have chosen for ourselves.

[Guest 91108]

I think that's a great post Ironwulf.
And I like the idea/comparison of basing lifestyles on other books to, such as religious ones.
Definitely a thread to learn something from if the reader is open.
There are so many closed minds on any issue or topic.

[Ironwulf]

Thanks Wolfscout,

Even though I am not truly gorean in my lifestyle I find I do not go to BDSM events or gatherings any more simply because I do not want to have to defend something that should not need defending.

It is a shame really and I can see why those that are "true believers" of the gorean lifestyle shy away from the main stream BDSM community or hide their true nature while there.

However, since I do understand the gorean way I have always felt it was my duty to stand aganst the ignorance that seperates the communities and continue to do so.

Perhaps someday things will be different.

[Widget]

I have read quite a few of the gor books, I know that they are a series. I do find it flat out rude to think that one point of view is more valid than others, wheather you have a gorean take on your life or any take. I agree that openess and acceptance of others view is the only way we learn about ourselves.

I can't blame anyone for being defensive when thier choice of beliefs is at risk of ridicule from others that "know better" and that is not right. There is always people that seem to think that they have all the answers and that thier way is the only way or your just not "serious".

Funny how that works. I didn't mention the bible deliberatly but that was the unspoken part of my statement that I felt in this thread perhaps shouldn't be mentioned. I only find it rather interesting because I have read more than one of the books and they are a comic book sort of story line. As i had stated an iteresting read but it is hard to understand as a basis of rules for a lifestyle. But then again everything has to start somewhere.

In the end it's to each thier own and if it works for them who is anyone to knock it.

[His_blizzard]

What happens to the old and not so pretty in that world...

I may be wrong but from what I remember there were drugs and treatments to keep one from aging as we do here on earth. And as for "pretty", the way I read the books, Gorean men found beauty in all females. It was the ones that desired to be pleasing and had true slave heat, even over those of greater beauty, that fetched the higher price at the markets. This may be my female perspective but that is how I viewed it. Just my two copper tarn coins worth. *grin* ~bliz~

[Timberwolf]

"Actually it is based off a whole series of books just like the Bible."

The fundamental problem with this statemenet is, despite the elements of the Bible (or other holy texts) that are *more than likely* fable, the books still have a solid basis in actual history. Events that actually occured, and people that actualy existed. Gorean novels cannot lay claim to the same, they are pure fantasy from start to finish. I don't consider that a valid comparison.

"In a city near where I live we have the headquarters of an entire culture of people who use a sci-fi book written by L. Ron Hubbard as the basis for their lifestyle called Scientology. It has many members like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, etc. who are believers and it is spreading around the world."

See above.

"Yes, Goreans can be ridged and judgmental towards others. They have faced years and years of persecution from the very people who should have embraced them and invited them into the fold."

"Because others were mean to me" is not an excuse to do the same in return. Frankly in my experiences, with you as a notable exception, Goreans have a severe lack of manners when it comes to actually telling you *what* Gor is. That only comes from my own experiences of course.

"Some day we as people must realize that everyone has their own path in life and we should not ridicule them for it but congratulate them for finding their way, even when it does not match the way we have chosen for ourselves."

Accepted as such. Gor certainly isn't right for me. Doesn't mean it isn't right for others.

[Ironwulf]

I didn't mention the bible deliberately but that was the unspoken part of my statement that I felt in this thread perhaps shouldn't be mentioned.

Well I had said the same back in my second post to this thread. However, because so many state that they can not understand how people can form a belief from a book, it ultimately has to be said that many do form lifestyle choices based on various books including those people in the BDSM lifestyle.

It may be from one of the religious books already mentioned or from a book like Jay Wiseman's SM 101, The Erotic Bondage Handbook, or one of any number of other books available, which people do see as the bibles of BDSM.

I once had a sub stop the session to tell me I was doing it wrong, I replied what do you mean I am doing it wrong. She said well that's not how Jay Wiseman said in his book to do it. I told her she should give Jay a call and see if he needed a sub because I do not base my life around doing everything the Jay Wiseman way.

----------------------------------------------
Igor reading from SM101 to Ironwulf
"insert probe 3 1/4 inch"
check
"secure with adhesive"
check
"apply voltage"
-slave screams-
check
----------------------------------------------

I practice safe, sane and consensual BDSM and if it happens to match up with Mr. Wisemans way of doing it great, but I will not do everything his way as the only way just because he wrote a book on BDSM.

I personally do not follow every concept presented by John Norman in the Gor books either. I think its safe to say that most probably do not. There are some people very committed to living as close to the books as they can but I believe that is a very small percentage of the total who practice gorean style BDSM.


I only find it rather interesting because I have read more than one of the books and they are a comic book sort of story line.

I must admit this is where I do not understand your thinking. While it has been a long time since I read comic books, I fail to see the connection. Of course I do not know what comic books you read nor which of Normans books you have read but in my limited experience I do not see the connection between them.

Player of Gor is perhaps my favorite book that I have read anywhere. The story seems to be complex and evolving, the characters rich and flavorful, the background elements colorful and detailed.

I have never seen any comic book come close to any of the Gor books to be honest. The first couple of Gor books which dealt mainly with the sci-fi setup, the back story, etc. were of no real interest to me and perhaps this is what you refer to.

The movies that were made using the titles from two of the Gor books were very much comic book movies, sadly they had little or nothing in common with the books.

It must be said at this point in the conversation that while I have read a great many books in a variety of literary styles I do not claim any superior knowledge as to what makes one book better then another except from my own personal enjoyment that came from reading it.

I think the facts however point to John Norman (AKA John Frederick Lange, Jr)
not being a writer of comic book quality fiction.

University: BA, University of Nebraska (1953)
University: MA, University of Southern California (1957)
University: PhD, Princeton University (1963)
Professor: Queens College New York - philosophy of history, philosophy of knowledge, philosophy and the challenge of the future

Sorry, but he just doesn't sound like a comic book writer to me.

[Ironwulf]

Hi Timberwolf, thanks for joining in.

You make some good points that I agree with. Goreans nor anyone involved in the BDSM lifestyle should react back with hatred just because they may have encountered it from someone before. But as humans we do. I admit to having been angered many times by Dom's telling me I was not a real Dom just because I happened to embrace some of the gorean philosophy in my BDSM lifestyle.

I am sure that has caused me to overreact later on when I felt an attack was coming when it was possible it wasn't. Wrong but human. We all tend to say "who are you to judge me" when confronted by others. Personally, I feel the only person that has any right to judge me as a Dom is my slave. If she continues to submit to me then I must be doing something right. No matter what name I chose to call my style. :)


The fundamental problem with this statemenet is, despite the elements of the Bible (or other holy texts) that are *more than likely* fable, the books still have a solid basis in actual history. Events that actually occured, and people that actualy existed. Gorean novels cannot lay claim to the same, they are pure fantasy from start to finish. I don't consider that a valid comparison.

Well I think what is being compared here is whether the philosophy contained in them is any more valid to base your culture off of then then any others.

Many people base their lifestyle on books that were written during a period of time that the writers believed the world was flat, the sun rotated around the earth. They believe in the philosophy of the book even though they know the events described were written by people with almost no understanding of the world around them.

If people needed a more historical real world based belief to follow then I would suppose we would have to either be muslim or mormon since both occured and were written about in more "modern times" by real people.

I think the point is yes, the Gor books do take place on a fantasy planet but would the philosophy concerning the D/s relationships between men and women be any more valid if Gor was really Hawaii and the lifestyle described was really one practiced by the natives of that island. I think not.

Remember all that is being said is that people do base lifestyles off of books, as to whether this book or that book should have more validity because of where, or when, or by who it was written is not in question.

[Guest 91108]

Gee .. and the thread wasn't supposed to really be a discussion about the books or the Games.

But since we've strayed in so many directions..
The bible makes use of places and events but i'd hardly call them as a telling of how it really was. word of mouth for couple hundred years before ever being wrote for the most part. much is fill in the blanks by later writers. then there's languange translations..... Then there's the newest version with street slang.... not a good topic to get me started on.

oh and followers of a lifestyle... zealots on all sides of nearly any issue.....

[Timberwolf]

Hi Timberwolf, thanks for joining in.

You make some good points that I agree with. Goreans nor anyone involved in the BDSM lifestyle should react back with hatred just because they may have encountered it from someone before. But as humans we do. I admit to having been angered many times by Dom's telling me I was not a real Dom just because I happened to embrace some of the gorean philosophy in my BDSM lifestyle.

I can understand your frustration. As a switch, I've often felt like I'm not ever *completely* accepted (or perhaps, a better word would be "understood") by a lot of people I meet who are either just a Top or bottom. Everything from "you're just confused" to "it's impossible for that to work" to one Domme telling me the fact I had a Dom side was a sign I needed "re-training" (I found her quaintly amusing, if nothing else).

[TheDeSade]

John Norman, who wrote the Gor books, also wrote a non-fiction book called "Imaginative Sex." It is an interesting read if you can find a copy! The man definitely had some ideas on sex and the role of men and women in society. But, did you know that the first Gor novels were based in part on a series of novels written by Edgar Rice Burroughs of Tarzan Fame? And that they were originally intended to be an allegorical commentary on society and culture of his time. And all you were thinking about was big hairy men and soft curvy slaves. . . .

[Ironwulf]

@TheDeSade
Yes I did and while I have not read "Imaginative Sex" I have read "Time Slave" which is a historical fiction and deals with how a modern women handles herself when sent into the the distant past and the primal roles of men and women during that time.

----------

I just listened to an interesting point being made on the "Submission and Coffee with Dollie Llama podcast! of 02-03-07" (the latest)

The Gor comments come in at the 18:20 mark and run about 2 minutes.

I am going to post the link below for the free download if that is a mistake on my part to do so please delete it. Otherwise just right click and "save link target as" to download, then just play it with your MP3 player.

http://www.askdollie.com/SAC-2-03-07.mp3

The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along.

So I guess my question to everyone (including lurking goreans) is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle."

[Timberwolf]

"The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along.

So I guess my question to everyone (including lurking goreans) is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.""

My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise.

I take the same exception to it that I take when Christian posters reference to the Bible and say "See, A Male Dom/female sub relationship is 'natural', it's in the book". Well, tell yourself that if it makes you feel better, but as a male with a sub streak, call me crazy but I don't take well to having my behaviour defined as unnatural - which is exactly what the statement does, whether intended or not. It simply isn't true, accurate, or fair.

Conversely with Goreans, just because I don't feel the need for (in my own opinion) an undue level of visible formality, doesn't mean I lack either structure, or format. It's simply different. Goreans themselves make a direct choice to ostricise themselves, in a way, by handing themselves the Gorean label - "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you're not one of us". In that sense, Goreans do as much to distance themselves from "the rest of us" as anyone else ever has. My structure may not be Gorean, but it does exist.

There's also the issue of "do you really want full-time strucutre", meaning out of the bedroom basically. I do, many here do, but not everyone does. There's no reason those people should feel like they are having noses turned up at them as a result.

Part of my own personal philosophy in life in general (beyond just D/s), has been a direct choice to rely on my instincs a great deal, and not too much on written sources. This is not to say I don't read, or am unwilling to consult well written sources of information. But I also think too much of anything is not a good thing - I see a lot of very intelligent people who, when it comes to making decisions, are doing little more in life than "consulting the manual" on that subject, as it were. An over-reliance on the written advice of others, as opposed to listening to themselves and finding ways to work through things using those tools. I choose to take a more... self-disigned approach, in D/s and many other things.

Thus as a result of several factors I couldn't see Gor ever working for me personally. That is not to say it's fatally flawed by any means, it simply isn't for me.

[His_blizzard]

"The basic points of the conversation is that what bothers them the most about gorean philosophy is that it is to structured for them. They do not want a relationship based on protocol since it is to much trouble. They basically don't want to play by set rules but to just make it up as they go along."


"My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise."

"My problem isn't the rules of Gor per se (as I understand them), more the rigidity of saying "This is the only basic format acceptable if you want to call yourself Gorean". For me the entire point is finding a structure that works for the individual. Wide, sweeping conclusions about "what works" are by default, destined to fail when put under scrutiny, sexual philosophy or otherwise."

Well, I may just be lashed to a Tarn saddle and flown off to die in the Sardars, or perhaps a harsher fate and returned to Earth, but I believe Master and I are living our union are Goreans with a flexability that I have never found to be unacceptable to fellow Goreans at all. At least those I know that have truly embraced the principles of the philosophy taken from the books and not those that have one; learned all of Gor from role play and bogus sites and never even cracked open a Norman book, or two; have a little leaf urt roaming their brains and truly believe there is a planet Gor and that someday they will ride a Tarn. NOT that there is anything wrong with that, mind you (before I am accused of being a rigid, judgemental Gorean) but those folk are the only ones have had problems with in the past.
I am sure that there are those amongst other Goreans that would cringe at the fact that I am neither free companion nor kajira, but a combination of both. That is how my Warrior wants it and that is how it will be! To me THAT is Gorean.

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.""

I live by Master's discipline 24/7. It is my life. It is what I accepted when I begged his collar. Yes it has to be watered down on "the outside" and of course I am not waiting at the door each evening naked with my leash in my mouth. I am not shared amongst his friends (yet *giggle*) and he forbids me to be branded. I have been subjected to discipline straight from the books at times, of course. It is a harsher union, yes. "Aftercare" for me is often being permitted to have a drink of water when I am getting one for him after we have had a session. A Gorean Master can be gruff and seem unromantic at times but also just like the books, when a Gorean Master hugs and cuddles his girl , it is the most anazing thing on earth. And again, remember this is real life. My Gorean Warrior is also the port in all of my storms, my shoulder to cry on, the one I laugh (and cry) hardest with, my most fierce protector and my very best friend. There are many days the Gorean firmness is put on a back burner because I need more nilla at the moment. It is a discipline of my heart and soul, not just the whip. And for the record, I consider myself more D/s than BDSM. If I had to pick one over the other, I would have to pick a D/s life without the "play" of BDSM. It is what fulfills me and makes me complete. I am not ashamed to be a Gorean woman; I am damn proud of it! I also think everyone has the right to live this D/s or BDSM lifestyle in whatever way fulfills them too, no matter how "different" it may seem. I have always felt that way about religion, and that is how I feel about this. Just my 40 or 50 copper tarns worth... ~blizz~

[TheDeSade]

I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles. I know individuals who speak fluent Klingon, wear the uniforms and civilian dress and atempt to adopt the customs and lifestyles of their respective adoptive alternate universe. Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Now, I may be missing the point completely here. I frequently do. And I readily admit that I have never read a Gor book in it entirety. When I was young I was a huge Edgar Rice BUrroughs fan and I read all the Tarzan, Mars and Venus books. I loved them. I have no doubt that had I discovered or had access to the Gor books Iwould have devoured then just a readily. Maybe that would have influenced my later development.

My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society. I have no problem with those who wish to delve into such, be it Gor, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. Its just not my thing! Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted.

THo', as I go off on another tange nt in this rambling stream of consiousness post, if Gor is anything like the Frazzetti art that I am familiar with, I might sign up anyway if I get a body like the warriors.

TDS

[Ironwulf]

I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Yes, I think its fair to say you have done that. We would like to talk about differences in training and how Dom/Masters and subs/slaves feel about the differences in the lifestyles in this thread if we can. We want feedback and are glad to get it but can we please stay on topic.


Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles.

Are those in the BDSM community that dress up in Biker motif, as Ponys, as babies, in latex, as doctors or nurses, Romans, or any other role play any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars Universe or the Star Trek lifestyles?

To say that the gorean lifestyle is about walking around in some uniform with a sword or wearing a mask to look like some alien is ridiculous. I have never seen anyone who thinks they are a Preist-King or Gorean Warrior except possibly on halloween.

As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy.


Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Goreans tend toward a BDSM style relationship? Goreans are always in a D/s style relationship.


My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society.

You would rather there were no rules at all, even those imposed in a safe sane consensual BDSM society but are willing to except those even though it is a struggle. However, since Gorean philosophy requires that both Master and slave be disciplined by their very nature, that is not acceptable for you.

Ok, good on topic.


Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted.

Well, you will want to stay away from computers. Talk about having to learn artificial languages. :)

The current question (so you don't have to backup a page to see it) under discussion is:

"How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle."

[His_blizzard]

My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society. I have no problem with those who wish to delve into such, be it Gor, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. Its just not my thing! Hell, I have enough trouble with ENglish much less learning another language especially one that is artificially crafted. TDS

My goodness DeSade, I would think Gor was created just for a man like you. Most true Gorean Masters that I have met, and now it is my pleasure to count Ironwulf amongst them, make their own rules and break those that they cannot bear to live by. And as far as another language, other than the traditional Gorean greeting, "Tal" and to call a slave kajira, all the Goreans that I know speak the language of the earth country they were born to. While you are still recuperating, you really should try and read Tarnsman of Gor, the first book. I think you would enjoy it and it may even be available to read online.
By the way TDS? You would look magnificent in the saddle of a great Tarn. *smile* ~blizz~

[Guest 91108]

As applied to non-fictional individuals, the word Gorean means an adherent of the philosophies espoused in Norman's writings, especially someone who lives a lifestyle based on this philosophy.


Quote:
Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?

Goreans tend toward a BDSM style relationship? Goreans are always in a D/s style relationship.


Quote:
My problem with adopting a Gorean lifestyle is that I have enough trouble dealing with the rules and regulations of our normal society much less those of a self inflicted Gorean society.

You would rather there were no rules at all, even those imposed in a safe sane consensual BDSM society but are willing to except those even though it is a struggle. However, since Gorean philosophy requires that both Master and slave be disciplined by their very nature, that is not acceptable for you.

Yes. exactly. thanks Ironwulf and Bliz for your posts so far.

[Timberwolf]

DeSade:

"I would like to throw out another question, just to muddy the waters and really throw a monkey wrench in the works. . . .

Are thos who adopt and live a Gorean lifestyle any more or less eccentric than those who chose to immerse themselves in such lifestyles as the Star Wars iniverse or the Star Trek lifestyles. I know individuals who speak fluent Klingon, wear the uniforms and civilian dress and atempt to adopt the customs and lifestyles of their respective adoptive alternate universe. Just because those who adopt Gor tend toward a BDSM style relationship doesn't or shouldn't make them any less acceptable?"

Funny about the Star Trek thing. I'm a huge fan (as in I have all ten moveis, and 14 of the 28 production seasons of the franchise on DVD, and I've not finished yet ;) ), and I've had the conversation before, in relation to Gor. Someone opposed to it said "you love it, but you don't actually walk around in a uniform or anything do you?", and my answer was basically no, I don't. There's "enjoying the work" and then there's living vicariously through it.

Ironwulf:

"To say that the gorean lifestyle is about walking around in some uniform with a sword or wearing a mask to look like some alien is ridiculous. I have never seen anyone who thinks they are a Preist-King or Gorean Warrior except possibly on halloween."

I've read a blog or two that begs to differ. In fact that's where the debate involving the Star Trek/Gor comparison with a friend came from in the first place. But that leads me to another point.

I think perhaps one of the best points I've had made to me on this is that with the internet, there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such. The problem is those people are normally the most vocal (despite having the least to say). Indeed, much as BDSM as a whole is misjudged by people who don't know what it really is, I'm sure Gor suffers much the same. Partially that's due to the kind of imagery that is out there that happens to sell, as it really doesn't give a good sense of what either actually is.

EDIT: I want to make it clear that "despite having the least to say" line is in no way in reference to anyone in this thread, or even on this site. It was designed as a comment about the sheer amount of free speech available on the internet, and what certain people use it for. On re-reading it I thought it might be best to clairify that to avoid any confusion.

[His_blizzard]

I think perhaps one of the best points I've had made to me on this is that with the internet, there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such. The problem is those people are normally the most vocal (despite having the least to say). Indeed, much as BDSM as a whole is misjudged by people who don't know what it really is, I'm sure Gor suffers much the same. Partially that's due to the kind of imagery that is out there that happens to sell, as it really doesn't give a good sense of what either actually is.

***HUG*** Yes...and Thank you! ~blizz~

[Timberwolf]

***HUG*** Yes...and Thank you! ~blizz~

You're quite welcome. And lovely avatar, if I may say so. :p

[Ironwulf]

@Timberwolf

Yes, I agree with all your points. It is very true there are people out there living as close as they can to the natural gorean way. I have been told by people I trust that there are several small gorean communities in the USA that are doing that very thing.

Having said that we must remember that we are talking about a handful of people out of the total number of people who practice some gorean style of BDSM.

I have met quite a few goreans, some very commited to the gorean lifestyle but as I said before none that were trying to actually live like they would be living on Gor in the phsyical sense but philosophically, yes indeed.

As you said "there are people in *every* group that are taking things as far as they can, and that the whole of a group should not be judged as such".

[His_blizzard]

You're quite welcome. And lovely avatar, if I may say so. :p
{{{ blush }}} Why thank you..... :)

[Ironwulf]

Thanks bliz for your comments that opened this page. Very well stated.


How important is discipline (rules, protocols, etc.) in a BDSM relationship? Is it just something that you only want to impose in the play room or should it be part of the whole lifestyle.

As far as rules and protocols go, I believe they are needed in some form or another in any BDSM relationship. To what extent they are employed depends on the type of relationship the couple has decided to have.

The gorean style does outwardly seem to promote rules and protocols to a greater extent then other BDSM styles. I wonder if that is based upon the perception that gorean protocols are silly, or if there is truely a difference in this regard.

I say this because I have known some old school Masters that had an awful lot of rules and protocols a girl had to learn. Thinking back they sure seemed as complicated and as numerous as any gorean Masters.

For me personal discipline is the foundation that a D/s relationship must naturally be built upon. Without it I can not see how anyone could be having anything other then kinky sex.

This probably more then anything else shows my gorean side.

If a Master does not have the discipline to control himself then he sure should not be accepting an exchange of power that would be putting him in control of someone else.

A slave must also have the discipline to allow herself to be taught otherwise her Master is wasting his time. The old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make her drink" applies.

Many times I have heard people say, I can make her learn, I would have to disagree. You may make her "do" but to really learn is something she has to want to do herself.

That brings up another topic:

"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".

Your thoughts?

[His_blizzard]

That brings up another topic:

"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".

Your thoughts?

I will answer with 2 of my favorite quotes from the Gor books:

"One of the pleasant things about owning a slave," I said, "is the opportunity to converse with her, to listen to her, to hear her express herself, her feelings and ideas. One can learn much from a slave. Many slaves, like yourself, are highly intelligent. They can express themselves articulately, clearly, trenchantly, and lyrically. It is a great pleasure to talk with them."

Page 203 - Beasts of Gor

"Do you know, ultimately," I asked, "who will prove to be your one best trainer?" "No, Master," she said. "You, yourself," I said, "the girl, herself, eager to please, imaginative and intelligent, monitoring her own performances and feelings, striving lovingly to improve and refine them. You yourself will be largely responsible for making yourself the superb slave you will become."

Page 210 - Savages of Gor

Nuff said... ~blizz~

[Guest 91108]

The gorean style does outwardly seem to promote rules and protocols to a greater extent then other BDSM styles. I wonder if that is based upon the perception that gorean protocols are silly, or if there is truely a difference in this regard.

I say this because I have known some old school Masters that had an awful lot of rules and protocols a girl had to learn. Thinking back they sure seemed as complicated and as numerous as any gorean Masters.

For me personal discipline is the foundation that a D/s relationship must naturally be built upon. Without it I can not see how anyone could be having anything other then kinky sex.

This probably more then anything else shows my gorean side.

This is why i first introduced the thread to the A-Z. I think the gorean philosophy of the slave is much better for my own use.
There are the slaves who seem pretty haphazard in how things are done - which to me falls more under "Pet" than slave. There is more room for play and often for less seriousness.
Then there are those who do best under the more stringent and rule based form of slave. This is the one where i would see the most benefit would truly lay for both individuals. Surely knowing some would not see it and have a difference of opinion.. but that is why we've had all this discussion.



If a Master does not have the discipline to control himself then he sure should not be accepting an exchange of power that would be putting him in control of someone else.
This to me is a definite Part of being Dom.. I see many who , in my eyes, with what they say and post.. should be looking else where .. smiles..



Many times I have heard people say, I can make her learn, I would have to disagree. You may make her "do" but to really learn is something she has to want to do herself.
I see this as flawed thinking when I read an article or post from someone who thinks they can change a person. They have to wish to be changed or it's all based on a sandy foundations and will fall out from under your feet. Ironwulf thinks like me on this one.





That brings up another topic:
"I don't want her to think, I just want her to do what she is told".
Your thoughts?
I think the individual who says this is truly not concerned with the slave at all. Being wrapped in a trip of the ego and mind.
Now there is the Doing of a slave which is acceptable and practical. But for the Commenter to think do whatever to me is a bit of a problem. Depends on what she is told and some other influences on it.
For Control to be Held, it has to first be out there to be given by the other.
That nonconsensual part of Slavery to me is the part that doesn't work. No matter which lifestyle we are talking.


And
Thanks Blizz for you postings and your AV :hubba:

[moptop]

This is a very interesting thread and, Wolfy, I think your last post was well balanced, thank you.

There are a couple of things that worry me generally. The first is a 'lifestyle'. For me personally, this is a mystery. Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle, to state rules of behaviour and habit by which they regulate themselves daily, and especially to take rules that they have not discovered for themselves? I have never understood this need. Be it being a Trekky or a Gorean or following some form of strict religion, it has always seemed to me that to follow behavioural regulations laid down by someone else shows a lack of strength in the individuals, a lack of ability to discover themselves, and regulate their own lives.

On the other hand, I can certainly see the attraction. You no longer have to suffer the great philosophical questions, what is right, what is wrong, how should I act and interact with others.

Balance, and finding your own way, seems to me to be the only sensible method of living: because at some time you will encounter situations for which your adopted external lifestyle does not cater, problems to which it will not be able to provide an answer. And then you will find yourself defenseless, having no training in self-analysis, self-discipline, or empathy with others, by which to find your own solution.

Still, I'm way off thread. Yes, of course, if you as a couple wish to have a D/s relationship rather than just sex games, then self-discipline is an absolute necessity. But this self-discipline is imposed in order to reach a goal that has been predefined: just like it requires self-discipline to study at college etc. etc., when you know what you want at the end of it. This self-discipline is necessary for both parties: and both parties really do need to know when to ease up. Training is a stress and a pressure. As His_blizzard said of her own relationship, "remember this is real life. (...) There are many days the Gorean firmness is put on a back burner because I need more nilla at the moment."

On another point, though, it is perfectly possible to train someone to do without thought: behavioural modification, 'brain-washing' techniques can be applied in a D/s relationship, breaking down the sub/slave's personality completely to rebuild them and mould them to the Dominant's desired format. The sub/slave is no longer obeying through free-will and self-imposed, desired obedience and discipline.

Now, I will defend anyone's right to adopt a lifestyle (provided it does not cause harm to others and they do not try to impose it on me), even though it bewilders me and I cannot truly approve. But my very soul rises up in disgust at the concept of severe behavioural modification. How can that be a consensual thing, since the sub/slave becomes a different person - almost a non-existant person, in fact?

Anyone who can enlighten me...

I get the feeling I'm going to upset people by this post, for which I apologise in advance. I really do want to know, to understand, and I am not meaning to criticise. Disagree, yes. Condemn, no. Except for the brain-washing thing. :D

[Guest 91108]

Now, I will defend anyone's right to adopt a lifestyle (provided it does not cause harm to others and they do not try to impose it on me), even though it bewilders me and I cannot truly approve. But my very soul rises up in disgust at the concept of severe behavioural modification. How can that be a consensual thing, since the sub/slave becomes a different person - almost a non-existant person, in fact?

Anyone who can enlighten me...

here's the thing you will find that Ironwulf, Bliz and others have said if you noticed was we pull things from this lifestyle and many others to make up your way.

For myself there is no totally workable lifestyle or religion or .gov for that matter.
my religion is eclectic so too is the rest of what i do.

The thread itself is using gorean based concepts to explore the slave issue and to a lessor degree the Dom/Master.

Forget rigidity.......

If a person choose to become a Gorean slave they have given consent prior too.
None here are supporting anything non-consensual. I've not read that in any post. Just general references to the whole of gorean lifestyle which ( on this planet *smiles* ) is unworkable. you have to allow for many things so the "Concept" is the basis for anything.
I would wonder even about those who live a BDSM lifestyle how much they adhere and when. How much do they vanilize to be acceptable in public? 24/7 in most any lifestyle is for the rare few ... so you see .. it's all in how it's worked into the life of the one's whom assume it.
I'd probably even go further and say which parts has one found workable out in society and which ones do they work behind the doors and walls of their home ? Try looking at it that way.

[Ironwulf]

I find as I type this, that I am seeing this in a way I had not previously looked at it from before. I am sitting here truly saying to myself "Don't screw this up, its important". :)
------------------------------

Hi moptop,
Thanks for joining in. I don't want to quote everything you mentioned about this so I will just quote this part:


Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle, to state rules of behaviour and habit by which they regulate themselves daily, and especially to take rules that they have not discovered for themselves? I have never understood this need.

This is a very good point and one that may shine some light on this whole gorean subject. Wolfscout alluded to this also.


There are the slaves who seem pretty haphazard in how things are done .... Then there are those who do best under the more stringent and rule based form of slave.

As I read and re-read those comments I started thinking about my own "lifestyle" and that of others around me. My thoughts had me thinking back to younger days and how my dad had been a "lifer" in the military and while I enjoyed my time in the military and had no problems working within the system I ended up looking for something different.

Why did my dad excel in living a lifestyle of strict rules and protocols?

It would seem to me that many people do thrive when given a strict framework to live in while others might feel oppressed by it to some degree or another and seek a different path.

I think it is no different for Masters and slaves in the BDSM world. Maybe people chose the gorean style because they in fact enjoy it and thrive in that strict environment. While others may want nothing to do with it feeling they perform best as a BDSM freestyler. Myself, I think I am most comfortable living a "lifestyle" somewhere in the middle.

So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control, no I let her go freestyle with someone else. I seek a partner who will be comfortable living within the same "lifestyle" I do.

Somewhere between Gor and Earth. :p

I hope I said all this correctly, I know what I was trying to say but can never be sure I wrote it so others can understand it the same way I meant it.

[Timberwolf]

"So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control,"

This brings up another intersting point: who says brats have no self control? I really don't get that. At all. I've yet to meet a bratty sub that wasn't doing it as either a direct or indirect way of saying "I need disciipline and structure... preferably from Your hand", so to speak.

"no I let her go freestyle with someone else."

Just because it isn't Gor doesn't make it "freestyle".

[Guest 91108]

Ironwulf, being a vet and knowing how some others think of military life , i think that is a great comparison.

Talk about rigid... how would you Like to be military life and pull in a little hippy movement for effect. say long hair and beards. grins.

the comparison works for me. LOL

Thanks for posting too.

[Ironwulf]

I hope I said all this correctly, I know what I was trying to say but can never be sure I wrote it so others can understand it the same way I meant it.

Obviously I was not successful.

@Timberwolf

I was referencing my comments mainly towards the points moptop and Wolfscout had made on the last page even though I did not quote them all as I stated at the beginning of my post.


The first is a 'lifestyle'. For me personally, this is a mystery. Why do people feel the need to adopt a specific lifestyle.

If you have no set form of BDSM lifestyle then I think its safe to say that whatever you do have can be called a freestyle. As in your living life freestyle, doing it your own way, etc. This is what I was referring to. The extreme ends of the spectrum. From the strict fully ruled Gorean lifestyle to the No rules, live in the moment BDSM Freestyler.

I also did not say nor mean to imply that all brats have no self control, even though I personally do know a couple of them who don't. I was merely saying that a girl with no self control (usually self proclaimed as a "brat") was not someone that I would be interested in partnering with in my BDSM lifestyle and would send her off to find someone else.

I like a more demure presentation from a girl looking to attract my attention. This type of girl might be interested in my semi-gorean approach to BDSM. That was the point I was trying to make.

I will continue in the future to try and make my points in a clear and understandable manner. Sometimes I will not accomplish it. You have my apology for that.

[His_blizzard]

:idontnow:
So, when I seek a BDSM partner, do I select a "brat" with no self control, no I let her go freestyle with someone else. I seek a partner who will be comfortable living within the same "lifestyle" I do.

Somewhere between Gor and Earth. :p

Yes Ironwulf, perfect. That takes me back to when I posted about Gor earlier and I explained that Master and I were more "Gorean Lite" and that I was kajira-missive.
So what do we call our new counter Earth/Gor? I was thinking of "Gerth" but that hits too close to home. ***giggle*** E-Gor? Nah...... that won't work. :idontnow: I will have to think on that a bit. "peace" ~blizz~

[Ironwulf]

@Wolfscout
Yes I do not know why I never thought about the military comparison before.

@His_blizzard
Hmmm, I am going to have to think on that one too. :)

[His_blizzard]

@His_blizzard
Hmmm, I am going to have to think on that one too. :)

:idea: Gorrth What do you think?? *grin*

~blizz, the Gorrthian kajira-missive~

[Ironwulf]

Hahahaha, ya that might work, better then Eargor anyway. ;)

[His_blizzard]

Hahahaha, ya that might work, better then Eargor anyway. ;)

Yes Sir, I agree. Eargor sounds like something oozing from one's ear when in the throes of a nasty infection or some really nasty heavy wax build up. Ewwww.... :28: Now on with the thread...

[Ironwulf]

I am really starting to like the name BDSM freestyler myself. Was thinking about getting some shirts made up. Bet you could sell a lot of those. I mean if you can sell a shirt that says "vanilla is for ice cream" then a BDSM freestyler shirt rocks. :)

Yes, back to the discussion, ok Wolfscout point the way.

[vistana]

a "vanilla is for icecream" shirt? I want this!

[Guest 91108]

hrm been thinking on the levels of a "lifestyle". The order is by topic not to show cross levels.
this is what i come up with :


first you have your ' Vanillas '

BDSM Curious beginning to unvanillaize their lives.

BDSM Freestylers open to many things now but not living it nor required to.
........ ( this includes Pets, and some collard/slaves. )

BDSM Lifers the harder core among them. Rules and severe punishment are delved out for disobedience. Usually in areas pertaining to respect, following some related rules, adn disobedience. All resulting in bondage and pain usually, occassionally for the purpose of bringing a mix of pleasure and orgasmic delight into the arena.

Gor Gamers - not worth talking about.

Gorean Lifers - all aspect of the life set to a rigidly enforced set of rules where actually is more open than others but harsh when the rules are clipped.

Gorean Lites - pull aspects of the Goreans that they think will work here for their relationship with their chosen ones. * smiles * covers all areas of life usuallly.

hrm well comments?

[Widget]

HAHAHA Gorean Lite.. Now with less calories and sugar free!!!!

I have to wonder why it’s so necessary to label anything that way though. I am sure that for people who are just starting to explore their sexuality, values and choices for how they want to shape their lives that would be even more confusing. Is one less or more valid? We all have different shades of kink, what gives us community here is that we are stepping outside the box and claiming something more for ourselves.

I can imagine the intimidation a budding Dom or Domme must feel having to measure up to the "Cool" BDSM'ers smoking in the back of the classroom..hehe high school flashback there...or the timid submissive as so many of them are at first, until they learn that submissive does not a door mat make, who runs into the submissive who ensures that they make sure that everyone knows that they are the better submissive because......and you are not a real submissive because <insert reasoning here>

I do not mean to sound like people who choose to name their roles in this way are wrong because that would be hypocrite of me. I just mean that somehow at times it seems to invalidate others choices if they are not the same as yours.

For me my sexual choices as well as my intimate interactions are not a game, I can't play that way. For those that are casual more power to them, it’s just not me. Everyone has to start one step at a time to see how far they want to go. I got lucky twice in the last two years in meeting people that I could not only talk very openly about the things running through my head but also gaining empowerment from it. I am very capable of living this kind of lifestyle as a day to day thing because if you have a deep connection there is no other way. I know that if I wanted to be deeply submissive to someone that I can make a wise and worthy choice and not run around looking for someone to collar me so I can brag about how great of a submissive I can be. I also know that if I was given the gift of someone’s submission in return that I also can be worthy of it and accept it from someone that knows the value of what they offer.

At the same time I would never be able to label within those confines where I would fall. There are some things about the Gorean philosophy I do think worthy. I do think that a Dom should make their sub feel as the most cherished prize and possession, and that a submissive should be able to honor that by giving over the trust to them. I do think there should be a time to play, dabble, learn limits, and learn to judge yourself and the people you choose to involve yourself with. Learn to KNOW yourself and be able to decide what you are not going to live without in your life. I know I did and it was not just about being kinky. What’s the use of sleeping beside someone that while they can get you off maybe, you always close a part of yourself away and always want it and maybe come onto sites like this to get a taste but you will never have it completely. It is also about complete intimacy.

I believe there is no such thing as a true vanilla just as there is no such thing as a totally 100% straight person. EVERYONE has a bit of grey. Some only a touch, others are all the way to the other side. After all dominance and submission is not JUST the sexual play, it is interaction and power play give and take. Every single relationship has that.

This may have taken a tangent from the question posed but I really feel that somehow the divergence in how people view their kink, their lifestyle is sometimes a very bad thing. I know that people here are very open and we can talk about these things without problems but pity the poor newbie who wanders into a closed minded it’s my way or the highway community. That is a really sad thing. I think the members here feel safe to say I dunno, show me, or hey what’s that without fear. I like that there are no Grand Doms who feel they are somehow better than others and I also like that there are no submissives pridefully lording their submission above members who are learning what they are really like.

I hope that this made sense and didn't come across as in any way rude because that is not my intent. I just felt I needed to say this here so I did. I have meant no offense but somehow this seemed to touch a cord for me. And lastly I like that we can all talk about this type of thing without fear of censure.

[Guest 91108]

ha , i just thought it was funny to do so.

[Ironwulf]

@ Widget (and everyone else too :) )

I think the labeling has for the most part been in jest or made as an aid for discussion purposes.

As I have said in some post in the past, BDSM is totally made up of shades of gray. That is why to me with the possible exceptions of the hardcore goreans and some old school BDSM types we really are all BDSM freestylers.

In my opinion we would be hard pressed to find very many people that practice the exact same style of BDSM as ourselves. We may show interests in the same types of things but how we apply them in our lifestyles is quite varied. (My guess, this one of the reasons why it is so difficult for Masters and slaves to find a real life match)

I have been labeled gorean just because I think the philosophy is valid and worth considering (and using for that matter). However, since we all label things it is natural to seek our own label before others do it for us. (Your a violinist - Not me, I play a fiddle)

It would not come as a surprise to me to find out that Wolfscout, His_blizzard and I have quite different ways of using the gorean philosophy in real life. Just as it would be for any other BDSM practitioner.

You did mention one thing I would like to see all of us discuss sometime down the thread and that is the concept of a "gift of submission".

[Guest 91108]

I believe there is no such thing as a true vanilla just as there is no such thing as a totally 100% straight person. EVERYONE has a bit of grey.

just for the record Widget .. i'm 100% straight. no gray here.

[Widget]

.

just for the record Widget .. i'm 100% straight. no gray here.


hmmm looks very close

[Guest 91108]

STrips for inspection.. I don't mind .. you won't find it ... chuckles.

[Widget]

I did find a smartie though. I am not however going to eat that ...

[***Kate***]

"Gorean Lite" oh thats very good.

[His_blizzard]

"Gorean Lite" oh thats very good.

:) We coined that phrase when I begged Dragon to be my Master and I was not sure if he wanted a full kajira. He explained that although he practised some of the Gorean principles and philosophies, he was not a hard core Gorean nor did he wish to own a slave again. So we say that we are "Gorean Lite" and that I am his "kajira-missive". :p

[Guest 91108]

seems you two found the best of both ........ * smiles *

[Guest 91108]

is having a very Gorean-Lite fantasy going on right now. chuckles.

[Ironwulf]

I am bumping this thread back to the top since during the year since this thread was last posted on people are once again asking about BDSM and Gor.

Personally I wish this thread was made a sticky so it would not be buried and the knowledge contained lost to new forum readers.

[lily27]

I don't think I have ever read this thread through... thanks for bumping it, Ironwolf sir.

Personally, it has been my experience that anyone who actually lives a Gorean lifestyle day to day, in reality, have simply found the Gor books to contain concepts and philosophies that struck a chord in them. They haven't gone through the series in order to concoct a list of strict "Gorean Dos and Don'ts". There is just something there that speaks to them, and they pick and choose what works for them.

Anyone who is trying to "out-Gor" someone else, who spouts off about the importance of serves, and dances, and third-person speech has generally never had a real life slave kneel at his feet.

Ironwolf, a few posts (and many months) ago you tried to steer the conversation towards "the gift of submission". I would love to continue this in a Gorean concept if anyone is interested.

[Ironwulf]

Thanks for joining us Lily

Please go ahead and give us your thoughts on "the gift of submission". I am sure others will join in.

[denuseri]

well good gravey gertie, i guess i best stop lurking and post allready,,Sorry to see that many feel that those calling themselves Goreans are sooo judgmental , its sad to see people be discriminated against. Honestly after reading many of the things people say about us (yes i would catagorized myself as a gorean, though i am also a wife, a student, a follower of bahai, etc etc ) i am not surprised that they feel the way they do,,
first of all, not everyone that calls themselves "Gorean" believes or follows a set of sci fi fantasy books like its a bible nessesarally, many infact like reading the books etc and a few of us even enjoy bdsm style sex on occassion, though that is a completely seperate issue for many of "us", but the underlining philosophy that Dr. Lange is expressing through the medium of his book series is the real "meat" of what motivates the Goreans my owner and I and a small group of other people consensus of truth to be. things like :

truth, love and honor being paramount in our "Gorean" practice: there is great bueaty in many of the books, and as far as philosophical truths no more inate than any other written word,, for are not all works containing "words" the works of mankind

The good Dr. didnt just make these concepts that some of us called "goreans" find admirable up out of thin air conserning the way or beliefs a typical "gorean" should or shouldnt expouse. Much of what he put in the books is infact based in painstakingly well researched detail from actually human history and or philosophical and theological customs and practices. The books are a medium used to explore Normans ideas conserning our own world and how its changing,, its actually very close to the trancendentalists and utilitarian philosophical models.

I wouldnt begin to even say that someone elses beliefs in a deity or thier sexual practices or philosophical guildlines are wrong up to and including thier dom, sub switch status and or sexual orientation(within reason i am human of course and dont nessesarally agree with pedafiles etc etc) and its certianly not what being a "Gorean" is all about to sit in judgment of others.

Question:"what is as clear as a diamond yet as elussive as the wind?"

answer: honor

this is a question prompted from the Gorean warriors code in the books, sound familar? it should its a twist on several martial codes induced by everyone from the spartans to the samurai

i guess my best advice conserning Goreans would be dont judge us like a book by its cover

[cadence]

I have to ask a few questions here since I seem to be confused now.

After reading this thread, I have summised, or at least I think I have, that the Gorean lifestyle is based on certain codes of conduct and certain philosiphies. It is primarily first and foremost a D/s relationship, without BDSM.
Am I correct in my thinking here?
Is BDSM incorporated into the relationship for a few or most Goreans?


It took me two long years to finally figure out where my submissive tendencies lay. I am happiest being a "slave" and from what I have gathered from hearing from others is that my idea of a being slave is no different than a kajira.
I know that I do live a D/s relationship, but with no BDSM at all.
I have kinks and fetishes as well, and now I am experiencing submission with BDSM.
I will always be submissive/slave or whatever you want to call me, without the kinks and fetishes. But I prefer to have both if I can.
Is this the same for Goreans?

I would like to hear about "the gift of submission" as well. That has piqued my interest.

[denuseri]

yes the gift of submission is something i am very much looking forward to seeing as well,

to attempt and answer your question cadence :

yes it is this ones and her Masters opinion (for i can not speak for all) that being gorean is a code of conduct first with an strong emphasis of D/s relationships
the bdsm aspect is a secondary consideration for us

[lily27]

Well, from my view, submission is not a "gift". A gift is implied that it is freely given... and can be taken back. That doesn't fit into Gorean context very well.

I once read an excellent essay that summed up this point of view a lot better than I will be able to do so here. I didn't bookmark it at the time, and have regretted it ever since.

Viewing submission as a gift puts the slave on a pedestal. She must be revered and worshipped in order to be granted her "gift". And if you don't keep her happy... well she will just go ahead and take her gift right back.

If submission is a gift it turns the entire concept of D/s on its head. The sub has the control... the power. Now for some BDSMers this is just fine. They believe that the true power lies with the sub. But for Goreans this isn't and shouldn't be the case. How many girls with the true heart of a kajira could ever be really and truly happy knowing that she could defy her Master's orders or get up and walk away at any time?

A kajira submits because she can't help herself... it is a desire that burns deep within her belly.

A kajira submits because a Master demands nothing less of her.

In my relationship, we clearly make the distinction. I didn't give Him my submission... He took it from me.

[lily27]

After reading this thread, I have summised, or at least I think I have, that the Gorean lifestyle is based on certain codes of conduct and certain philosiphies. It is primarily first and foremost a D/s relationship, without BDSM.
Am I correct in my thinking here?
Is BDSM incorporated into the relationship for a few or most Goreans?

Gor is definitely a D/s relationship primarily. This is at the heart of Gorean philosophy... Men are generally Dominant, and women are generally submissive.

I hesitate to say anything about "most" Goreans, but some definitely do incorporate BDSM into their lives as well. The novels tell of many instances of physical discipline, but it is just that... discipline. Punishment. Neither the Master nor slave would receive and pleasure from the exchange.

Gor is more of an overall lifestyle than a kink. You will never hear the phrase "bedroom Gorean".



I will always be submissive/slave or whatever you want to call me, without the kinks and fetishes. But I prefer to have both if I can.
Is this the same for Goreans?

For some, yes. For some, no. In my unscientific observations of the Gorean community I would say that there are a fair number of Goreans who also practice BDSM... just because it is a kinky good time. In my relationship we practice bondage and S&M because it turns us both on... so why would we deny it from ourselves? It has nothing to do with Gor though.

[denuseri]

thanku so much well said lilly,,

as far as gifts of submission we like to look at it as: my Master gave the gift to us with his strength of will over me, by bringing forth within himself his true nature in dominance and my true nature to submit to His will, we are thus freed of any other considerations, i am nutured by his dominion over me so that i compliment his desires; for his desires are my own His heart is my heart, His strength fills my soul with love
it becomes like a symphony
i bend like the strings of a violin played by his hand

[Ironwulf]

( I had just finished typing out a reply to all this when just before I clicked the post button I had a 2 second power failure here and all was lost. What follows is an attempt to recreate what I had written :mad:)

What a wonderful group of gorean women we have on this site. It is so refreshing to see so much insight for a change.

For many years as I wandered around the internet I kept hearing about this gift of submission over and over again. I had girls offering it to me as they served me paga in the taverns, I watched as others proclaimed it to the world standing next to a grinning guy in furs rubbing his hands in glee and I thought to myself what in the heck are these people talking about.

Why are these "slaves" wanting to give this gift of submission to me or him?

She should be giving it to herself.

Once she has freed herself to just be submissive (her true self) then she is free to ask for something from me. My acceptance. Her place in the relationship is never in doubt, she is what she is and I am what I am.

I realize that there are many people out there that only play BDSM as a bedroom game and under those circumstances the giving of ones submission and dominance to each other for a short period of time could be deemed appropiate. For a gorean it is sheer folly.

I am a Dom, I do not assume the role with my companion for sex or for the weekend, I help her when needed (training) to be the same way. I am what I am all the time even though it might not seem that way to an outsider.

(ok, I give :) this has turned into the readers digest version of what I wrote before.)

[lily27]

Pro Dom, I hope you are not implying that Goreans do not respect or value their slaves.

A well-trained and pleasing slave is of great value. She brings great honour to her owner. My Master is extremely proud whenever I am commented on postively by another Free Man (I must direct him to this thread for that purpose... thank you for your kind words, IronWolf, sir).

Respect is a slightly different concept, however. He doesn't respect in the sense that he submits to me.... or puts me on some kind of pedestal. But he respects my needs. He respects my knowledge and skills. I certainly don't feel "disrespected" in my relationship.

[Ironwulf]

@ Pro Dom

I think I understand where your coming from but I feel perhaps you have misunderstood my comments in this thread. I do practice Safe, Sane, and Consentual BDSM and do not feel it is in conflict with the gorean ideals. I also think its safe to assume the same holds true with all the goreans I have spoken with in this forum.

I can not speak for all that claim to be gorean of course but as I mentioned in a earlier post, no gorean master I know would want a girl that did not want him. In the books that is pretty much the same as well except when a master desires a girl so as to make her want him. Which of course they always seem to. :)

I just take it as one of the fantasy vs real life elements that come from writing sci-fi romance novels for the masses. I think thats what I like about the books, you get sci-fi adventure, a good deal of romantic interplay, and some very insightful concepts and philosophies concerning the relationship between men and women.

I and others have merely applied those concepts and philosophies into our lives and in particular our BDSM lifestyles.

I would like to add that I am not perfect in any way and have made a number of mistakes over the years. Most were small ones that caused no problems but I have done one or two loo loos as well. I have tried to learn from them so as not to ever repeat them.

God like, no - Good Master, I think I am.

[Ironwulf]

@ Pro Dom

Yes, I agree with your points.

I think a girl would be wise to know the master she is going to beg a collar from but afterwards it becomes the masters duty to "USE" the slave well not to "ABUSE" her. If he does then the fault does not lie with her but with him and he should be held accountable for it.

Sadly some "masters" gorean or not will abuse the person who is relying on their trust and they may not be held accountable for their actions. I do not know of anyway of preventing this. Safe word or no safe word, sometimes things go wrong or someone loses control.

I guess its like sex, the only safe sex is either no sex or self sex. However in BDSM you can not even count on self BDSM since that is not safe either, many have gotten themselves into trouble when they were their only play partner.

Life is a risk we all take daily. Gorean or not.

[denuseri]

walks in quietly with a small boom box, puts on some pan desi dance music, goes to the middle of the room and :

How to kneel in Gorean


Arms down
palms up
lips parted
teeth flared
eyes blazing
hair wet

shoulders back
collar gleams
breasts out
skin bare
tail arched
legs folded

thighs tense
knees spread
branded flesh
toes curled
sits

La Kajira
in
Nadu

[Kuskovian]

Didn't I have you learn that mantra many many years ago girl?

Greetings to those in the room. I just thought I would drop in and see what the people at this site thought about us. The "us" conserned being those typically called or self professed "Goreans"; take your pick.

I wont bore you with stories of how I found my life long philosophical base hidden in the writtings of Norman at age 12. It's really simple you eaither get "it" or you don't.
I have read and been inspired by a lot of books. Most all of them have a message within them. Out of all the works of theology and philosophy I have studied; other than the wisdom of wiccan and zen buddist traditions (both of which I hold great reverence for), none that I have found to date have had such a strong of an influence on my soul as those of the world of Gor.