No Child Left Behind

[Dorkalicious]

Hello all :)

I'm not sure if this is the exact place I should start this, but it has something to do with politics, so it was my best bet :) No, I don't mind if a mod moves it, hehe.

I am a Secondary English Education major, just starting my second semester of college here in Pittsburgh PA. I just started an education class, where I am to learn about what it takes to be a teacher, and of course the No Child Left Behind Act has been brought up. I don't really have a view on it right now (though I am leaning a lot towards the negativities of it), because I haven't researched a lot on it.

I decided to start this discussion, not only because I haven't seen it on here yet (I did a little search :) I might have missed it, sorry...), but because I am just curious what your thoughts are on it...

Hope you all don't mind :o

[Mishka]

My music teachers spoke briefly with me about it. They said "talk to a teacher. They hate 'No Child Left Behind'. I haven't researched it much myself yet. I homeschool, but I need to keep track of these things as well as my own side to things...you never know when it could change.

[Dorkalicious]

What I do know, is that by 2013 all schools are to have 100% of their students passing state regulated tests....Such as the PSSA or the REGENTS...

[smilie]

here in Ontario we have at least 3 tests taht the kids must go throught before they are finished school the first in grade 3 the second in grade 6 and the grade 10 years test if they do not pass they are not allowed to graduate till they do and if after the 3 try they can not pass it they must start all over in the grade nine classes OHHH and my favourite is the kids MUST have 40 hours of community service, I figure with all the home work they must do that they have no time for this buit hey the government knows best right!!!! ( I think Not) i don't know if it is like your No Child Left Behind but i tell ya the kids are gettingthe bum wrap on this one!!

[TheDeSade]

This is about as bogus a piece of legislation as our beloved president has ever conceived. He got his feet wet on this one when he was the Gov of Texas. His efforts pioneered testing in TExas schools. The result has been lawsuits, wrangling over funding and control of the education system, teachers who have to spend 70% of their time teaching to a set of test based training materials that don't teach subject matter but teach test taking skills and strategies. THe kids aren't learning the basics, the teachers are frustrated and the public school system is in chaos.

ALl this from a guy who, by all reports, couldn't have successfully managed to pass the tests and graduate under the system he put in place.

[SheepishJaina]

Ahhhh good 'ol No Child Left Behind...

I started college as an elementary education major. As I learned more about "no child left behind" it really made me rethink. The law, is a joke. There is no way for a decent teacher who truly gives a shit about their students to teach. You ARE teaching to the test, you WILL be judged based on how well your students do on said idiotic tests that they do not care about.

I dropped out of the Elem Ed major after my soph year. My college had a course where 2nd year teachers spent half a day for a semester in a class room observing. I watched a teacher teach to the test. Students fell behind so rapidly, but the teacher kept "teaching" because she needed to hit certain percentages on those tests.

My husband has his degree in secondary education, English. He was hired by a charter school his first year out of college. There were a TON of troubled youths in the classes he had. Many of them were far below their "supposed to be" average. He was demoted to a building sub after the class failed to achieve the levels on the standardized pratices tests. He was not rehired for the next school year. (The next teacher who took over, had even lower actual scores with these kids, and is also no longer with the school)

Schools have already started weeding out the "bad" teachers. Your career is based on how well teens and children do on those tests. (anyone else remember filling in solid lines of just "c" answers in protest to taking those standardized tests? I know I did, and failed them with flying colors, and if you doubt my writing skills, I suggest you go read one of my two contest winner stories here on the site.)

Now anymore, teachers carry so many roles. They're not just there to teach the information. Often they are held to a higher standard than just teaching. They have to watch for the students that need extra help, they become for some students a parent figure, a therapist. I could go on and on.

Now, I know my husband is a great teacher. I know that those students of his were learning, but they were learning slowly, at a different pace than the tests thought they should be. They were still learning. It's become such a "measure" and it's BULL SHIT. The tests do not take into account those students who will never go to college. It doesn't take into account the students with the learning "difficulties" that may not have been discovered or adressed yet. While the standard is diffrent for "certain" schools, it's not good enough.

Life is not comprised on how well do you know your history facts, or being able to write in a complete sentence that is not fragmented. Yes it can help, but if a student is just memorizing facts, is that really learning? It certainly doesn't inspire me to learn. A love for learning needs to be awakened in every child. If when they graduate high school, they can confidently step out into the world, and be prepared to enter college, or go into the workforce and not struggle so much that they just give up, then that is truly what is best. I don't care if the guy working on my car scored high on the test. Can he fix my car properly? I don't care if my "imaginary" child's teacher teaches to a test. Is my child learning, has this teacher given them a love for learning, have they shown my child that education can be fun, and helped them prepare for the "real world"?

[mkemse]

No child left behind was a joke when it was intorduced, it is a joke now, it will never be what it should be, but I am sure sure our current leader cares about nothing aside from himself at this point anyway, he will listen to nobody on most issues incuding his advisers, or the American people, just think only 1 1/2 more years, then we party like it was 1999

[Dorkalicious]

SJ, your...er...speech there, really blew me away! You put what I have been thinking into words, that's for sure. Again, I don't know everything about NCLB, but what I do know spells disaster.

My education professor is highly against NCLB, but he sees it's slightly altered good points. He believes that if we had moved our asses years ago, this would not have been put into effect. The education world is drastically getting worse and worse as time goes on. There are a lot of those "bad" teachers out there that really do need to be weeded out. A lot of them are there because there were no other jobs that they wanted or could do. Kind of like that saying "When all else fails, teach" -- I disagree whole heartedly with that.

I'd also like to point out that it surprised me that your hubby is a Secondary English educator :) I'm sorry to hear what happened to him...sadly that does happen. I hope it doesn't happen to me. If you go into a teaching career, you need to know your stuff, very very well (I'm not saying he didn't!). One of my arguments to the NCLB was just that -- People learn at different levels....Everyone learns differently from each other! A lot of people don't understand that...

And as far as this whole pass/fail thing is concerned with State Mandated testing? Right now it is up to the child to pass or fail for the most part. No one else really suffers from it but that child (Unless of course over half the class can't pass it, then it falls back on the teachers, school...etc..). But now it is changing. If a student doesn't pass this test, then it is automatically someones fault. It doesn't matter if that child simply could not learn the material, or if the child didn't want to try...

Ugh..my nerves will get raw on this subject, I can tell. We have a debate coming up in my education class...can't wait.

[tessa]

Oh the joys of being a teacher...which is one of the more minor reasons I am a stay at home mom now. My becoming a mother is the major reason, but that little piece of legislation sure made it an easy decision.

I taught for 11 years. The first several years I taught, I knew I had found my calling. That's really how I felt. I looked forward to each day. As the years went past, more and more legislation came our way, taking the teaching out of my hands and putting into some beaurocrats pocket, who for the most part didn't even know what went on inside a classroom! Change after change came that made no sense to us, the teachers. Then came No Child Left Behind. In theory, it sounds wonderful. In actuality, it just doesn't work.

Ok, I spent the better part of an hour typing out what I encountered in my career as a result of NCLB. After reading back over it, well, it was just a little too harsh. Correct, but harsh. So I will say this...educate yourself about it. The Department of Education's website has information on it...a little too pretty, but the information just the same. The National Education Association (NEA) website has information on NCLB from another perspective, that of actual educators. Talk to exprienced teachers. See what they have to say about it.

I taught under it for 3 years and with the exception of some improvements to the way reading and math are taught, it was basically a bottomless pit of red tape and ineffectiveness. And I will say this as well. Politicians throwing more legislation at the current system of education in this U.S. of A will fix nothing and will only continue to perpetuate the problems that already infect its foundation.

Having said that, I will add the following...be the very best teacher you can possibly be. Put your heart into it. Despite what you may encounter, that, and that alone, will make the difference in a child's life. And that is worth all the headaches that may come your way. There is no better feeling than to watch a child's face light up when they are learning.

Well, a spanking feels pretty damn good, but that's another thread. :)

All my best-
tessa

[Dorkalicious]

Thank you, so much for that tessa! If you don't mind, and if you still have it, I would like to read what you had been writing for the past hour :) PM, or otherwise...I'm sure it's informative...

This may sound completely wrong, and probably impossible -- But sometimes I wish I could simply move into another country. This country just seems to be getting worse and worse every year. I have no pride in this country at the moment, though that could simply be because I am young and naive...heh. :(

[MasterRob{cali}]

Well, follow the money who is the one the will recivie the most out of the law. mmmmmmm

[tessa]

Dorkalicious, I'll pm you my rant. And if you want to move, move to Belgium. They have the most excellent schools in the world. Probably would be a great place to live as well. As long as you can still find us in the Forums... :)

[lily27]

As a Canadian, I am not all that familiar with that certain piece of legislation. But I certainly have a problem with teaching to the lowest common denominator.

What I am about to say is not politically correct. Feel free to flame me, but it won't change my opinion any.

Not every kid is cut out to go on to university. Not every kid is going to become a doctor, or a lawyer, or a rocket scientist. There is nothing wrong with this.... it is just the way it is.

Why, as a society, are we spending all of our resources on the bottom of the class? Wouldn't we be better off if we poured all of that money and teaching time on the brightest kids who are going to go on and change the world?

I am not saying we should completely forget about the kids that struggle. But we need to look at what is going to do the greater good at the end of the day. I just don't think teaching to some standardized test is going to do that.

[Timberwolf]

"Why, as a society, are we spending all of our resources on the bottom of the class?"

Because back in the 1970's some fool decided that every kid was "special" and "capable of doing anything if they just put their mind to it", and for some reason it caught on, even though it's so obviously nonsense.

Of course, now those same people are the old people that sit around complaining that the youth of the world seemed screwed up, and how their generation never did anything to create less than the perfect chance for us all. Go figure.

[tessa]

I just don't think teaching to some standardized test is going to do that.

You are exactly correct about that, lily. Teaching that only emphasizes testing material should be illegal, in my opinion. In one system, teachers were actually mandated to stop teaching "the more frivolous" subjects and focus only on math and reading. Well that certainly makes for a well-rounded education, doesn't it. I mean studying about other cultures, the history of the events in the past that brought us to the place we are today, the beauty in art and music...yes, all so very frivolous. I read that memo and said out loud to my administrator, "can I throw up now or do I need to wait?". That incident is a perfect example of what NCLB is doing for our children.

It's also true that not every child is cut out for advanced education, but every child can be taught something that will lead them on into becoming a productive citizen. Why can't the resources be used to educate students in the way that would most benefit the individual? Oh yes, I almost forgot...NCLB. But then again, it's also NCLB that says "NO excuses...every child must learn this, that and that, so Teachers, utilize every method possible, plus all the ones you don't even know about, and make these children learn...but only what's necessary to be on the good side of the AYP list come May.". It is bordering on the utterly ridiculous.

I must say that there are a few school systems who are successfully educating students and keeping test scores high. But only because the people in charge understand NCLB for what it is and ensure it doesn't ruin everything.

[Timberwolf]

I'd also like to point out that western education, as a whole, needs a massive cirriculum revamp (I'm Canadian but by all accounts this also applies to Americans, England, and Australia from what I can gather from friends). Being 25, I feel like when I came out of high school in my late teens, I realistically learned very little in terms of "usefull skills" that put me in any position to do much out in the real world. The entire system has become totally about "preparing you for university". Well guess what. Not all of us can afford university first of all, secondly not all of us want to go. And as lily said thirdly frankly not all kids are qualified to do so.

Prime example of where revamping is needed is in mathematics. We teach all sorts of basic "higher match", the basis of algebra, finding the volume of a pyramid, and all those highly useful things. But where's the accounting math in high school? I literally can't fill out a tax form on my own, because I don't understand what I'm reading. How about teaching young people to manage their money instead of figuring out how much water the great pyramids would hold, if they were hollow. Which they are not. Especailly in this age of debit/credit cards to literally anyone that wants it, money management is probably more essential than ever. And it's almost a seming afterthought in the race to meet "standards" and prepare kids for higher level university math - things that frankly would not be nearly as useful to Joe Average in day to day life as basic accounting knowledge.

I (and my generation) came out of high school with virtually nothing in terms of "useful skills" with which to impress an employer. There's something wrong with that.

[Dorkalicious]

Dorkalicious, I'll pm you my rant. And if you want to move, move to Belgium. They have the most excellent schools in the world. Probably would be a great place to live as well. As long as you can still find us in the Forums... :)

Thank you again! Hehe...And as for moving? It seems so impossible right now anyway. If I do move out of this country, in most cases I would have a third (or fourth, because I know a little French) language to learn. I'm not against learning another language, at all...It just takes a LOT of work. And as for finding you on the forums? You betcha! =D



I'd also like to point out that western education, as a whole, needs a massive cirriculum revamp (I'm Canadian but by all accounts this also applies to Americans, England, and Australia from what I can gather from friends). Being 25, I feel like when I came out of high school in my late teens, I realistically learned very little in terms of "usefull skills" that put me in any position to do much out in the real world. The entire system has become totally about "preparing you for university". Well guess what. Not all of us can afford university first of all, secondly not all of us want to go. And as lily said thirdly frankly not all kids are qualified to do so.

Prime example of where revamping is needed is in mathematics. We teach all sorts of basic "higher match", the basis of algebra, finding the volume of a pyramid, and all those highly useful things. But where's the accounting math in high school? I literally can't fill out a tax form on my own, because I don't understand what I'm reading. How about teaching young people to manage their money instead of figuring out how much water the great pyramids would hold, if they were hollow. Which they are not. Especailly in this age of debit/credit cards to literally anyone that wants it, money management is probably more essential than ever. And it's almost a seming afterthought in the race to meet "standards" and prepare kids for higher level university math - things that frankly would not be nearly as useful to Joe Average in day to day life as basic accounting knowledge.

I (and my generation) came out of high school with virtually nothing in terms of "useful skills" with which to impress an employer. There's something wrong with that.


This right here makes a TON of sense. I agree, curriculum does need a HUGE revamp. Perhaps not only for those reasons though. I found myself each year -- as far as math was concerned -- taking another step, but not looking back on the ones that came before it at all, or if so very very little. Instead of taking steps, it actually seems like I was going through a series of rooms and simply closing the door behind me each time I entered a new one. The system now doesn't allow us to build on what we already know, it expects us to just keep marching forward, which is insane!

Math itself is a huge problem anyway. A lot of people that learn what Timberwolf stated above know they won't need it in the future, or if they do? Well, in most cases it won't be very much. I went through math, constantly fighting it mentally, because what the hell would I use it for if I was an English major? Parts of it? Yes, I would need it...but as Timberwolf, I have a hard time doing tax returns, my school offered an accounting class, but with all the other requirements needed to graduate, I could never fit it into my schedule...I know I am not the only one in my position.

[Mishka]

Thank you for the education! Now I remember several reasons I home school. And the sad thing, is the Board of Ed and Superintendants want to regulate that as well...not for the good for my children...but because our butts not being in those seats they lose out on millions of federal grants every year. My parental rights are on the chopping block because someone else has decided that my children will thrive in a government institution than in my care.

I am so sorry teachers. I have a lot of appreciation for all the hard work you put into your jobs.