A Questioning Need

[tessa]

Hello All. ~waves and smiles to those I am acquainted with as well as to those I am not so familiar with yet~ I come with a request, if I may? My husband and I, while married for 15 years, have just started on our D/s journey together. ~looks at all of You~ And I thought it was going to be soooo easy just because we discovered this is both what we want. At the suggestion of a couple very dear-to-me people, I have started a thread in the "My BDSM Life" titled 'my journey'. In it is a chronicle of small sorts of what has happened so far with us (which isn't a great deal, but still more than I ever dreamed). My request to You is this...if You are so inclined, would You please read through posting #13, "What happened after...", and see if You have any words of experience and wisdom to pass along to us? "Well, tessa, if you posted there, why are you posting here?" Because I am rather desperate to hear from Dominants who KNOW what to do in situations in which I am finding myself, circumstances that completely confound me. :o

So, if You will, I thank You from the whole of my submissive spirit.

Respectfully-
tessa

[TomOfSweden]

I think you'll get more replies if you'd link to the text.

[tessa]

I think you'll get more replies if you'd link to the text.

:) Aren't you kind to say as much! It would be helpful to provide the link, I am quite sure. But being pretty ignorant of doing such a thing hinders me in this little task. I have gotten some excellent advice and wonderful comments in the past couple weeks, so that has gone a long way in assisting me already. Also, I was pathetically needy when I posted this and obviously there is a time limit on the ability to edit posts...not a good thing for impulsive desperates like myself. :o I have gotten over myself since then. (Ok, I really haven't, but I am doing a grand job of pretending and it seems to be helping.)

Since I have read and appreciated many of your postings, I would have been interested in your take on the whole issue. Not saying I still wouldn't be, but as I am slightly embarassed about the whole thing, I'll just stay ignorant of the this linking up information thing...spare myself and others from it all.

But very lovely of you to respond in this way. Thank you so much!

tessa

[TomOfSweden]

:) Aren't you kind to say as much! It would be helpful to provide the link, I am quite sure. But being pretty ignorant of doing such a thing hinders me in this little task. I have gotten some excellent advice and wonderful comments in the past couple weeks, so that has gone a long way in assisting me already. Also, I was pathetically needy when I posted this and obviously there is a time limit on the ability to edit posts...not a good thing for impulsive desperates like myself. :o I have gotten over myself since then. (Ok, I really haven't, but I am doing a grand job of pretending and it seems to be helping.)

Since I have read and appreciated many of your postings, I would have been interested in your take on the whole issue. Not saying I still wouldn't be, but as I am slightly embarassed about the whole thing, I'll just stay ignorant of the this linking up information thing...spare myself and others from it all.

But very lovely of you to respond in this way. Thank you so much!

tessa

For future reference. Go to the post you want to link to. Copy the entire address from the addressbar at the top, (ctrl-c in windows). Go back to this thread. Write a word. High-light it and then click the button I've circled and paste the adress you have saved, (ctrl-v in windows). Press ok and you're all done.

[_ID_]

having the link would help so I could comment on it... doing a search isnt proving successful

[annie]

OK... since i know what thread Tessa is talking about...

Here is the link to the over all thread...

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8495

*grinz* problem solved!

[tessa]

OK... since i know what thread Tessa is talking about...

Here is the link to the over all thread...

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8495

*grinz* problem solved!

:o Wishing I'd never been a problem in the first place to cause you the trouble, but thank you very much, annie. Really lovely of you.

And thank you Tom, for the explanation on linkage. I learned something new today...I think. I'll try it out to make sure.

And ID, if we all make it to Leatherfest this year, I will look forward to saying "thank you" in person. :)

[annie]

Tessa.... you are NOT a problem! That is something very minor that i was able to do!

Plus i enjoy finding out the answers along the way as well!

~hugs~

[tessa]

Tessa.... you are NOT a problem! That is something very minor that i was able to do!

Plus i enjoy finding out the answers along the way as well!

~hugs~

I hate to be redundant, but it bears repeating...

Really lovely of you!! ~hugs~

[Masterdarkone2000]

Tessa,
I have read your story and I am glad that you had the courage to share this with the group. I know you feel like its a problem but it really isn't. You are jut breaking out of your shell that you have lived in and are now exploring. Its fine and you are not a problem.

[Rhabbi]

I have a slightly differant perspective that I would like to share withe you.

I belong to a couple of Christain D/s groups that discuss this type of thing quite often. Culturally we have been taught that women are equal to men. (Please not, I do not ant to debate this point, I am just trying to answer a question.) When you and your husband decided to enter into the D/s life neither of you truly understood the consequences on the rest of your life, especially in the presence of children.

Becoming a submissve is a process that takes time. Time to rid yourself of cultural conditioning. Time to rid yourself of old habits. Above all though it takes patience on the parttof your Dom.

In your case the problem is compounded because your husband is more or less at the same stage you are, and does not yet feel comfortable exercising his Domness (Is that a word? If not, why not?) and will make mistakes.

He was not wrong in helping you with the mess, at least not in my opinion, but he was wrong in not disciplining you for your anger. What exactly he should have done is between the two of you, but I find it very handy to gag my subs when they yell at me, and I usually stand them in the corner for a bit. This usually cools them down and allows them to ponder the error of their ways.

Being as you have children at home perhaps you could modify this with aa code word that your husband could use in front of them. When he says this you would be required to go into your bedroom, close the door, gag yourself, and stand in the corner while he deals with the problem. There could be a set time for you to be in the room for this, to save your husband from having to come and release you from your punishment. After this you would be free to go back out and apologize to your Dom.

If you are truly the sub you want to be this would be very effective for a variety of reasons.
It would give you time to ponder the folly of yelling at your Dom.
It would allow him time to coll down from the insult to him.
It would also force you to contemplate your Dom doing somehting that you should be doing.

There are other things that will going through your head also, but I think these are the ones that would be most effective in teaching you a lesson.

One more thing: This does not have to be the extent of your punishment. Your husband can add more to it as he sees fit, after he has had time to cool down.

Just some thoughts from my perspective.

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, here's my take on it. The problem I'm seeing is...well. Dominance for me isn't about who does what, but about the feelings behind it. I know my slave would be obedient in any situation any time. I could have her do all the house work. She would never complain. I could wipe my shoes on her when I come home. I could use her at anytime in any way. I still do the dishes at home. I wash clothes and vacuum clean. We're two people with busy lives. This is what is most practical for the both of us.

I understand a slaves need to serve her Master. And all slaves have different views on what that means. It's important for my slave to serve me. So I tell her to fetch me tea, to lay out my clothes. Scrub me in the bath. That's what serving is for her, so that's what I tell her to do. This is not me or my needs now, but hers. We're all people and too much is too much. My slave has a wonderful mind I love to explore, and if she would be too tired from doing all the work I would have less of it.

Servitude isn't about doing the boring stuff, but showing devotion. Tell him to clean up his own damn mess.

Seriously. If you stick to that guy it's going to be a long and bumpy ride. When it comes to sex it's always best to learn with an expert and both of you are pretty new to this. Being a good Master is extremly hard, (or maybe I just suck at it becuase it took me about 10 years). It's not about just lying back being served. It's about making your submissive flower in her submissivenes. It's about making her happy. That requires a vast insight into how subs/women/people function. That'll take years to develop. And in my humble opinion best learned by sleeping around with a lot of women.

edit: ...and my slaves input is that being with a beginner Master probably means a lot of suffering for you. Her advice is to slowly introduce slave rules. A little at a time and talk a lot about them all the time. Jumping straight into 24/7 will just lead to confusion.

Another thing about the rules is: they can't just be random rules. It must be something that he always have wanted somebody to do for him. Something that makes him horny. Not just things he's just too lazy to do himself.

I love her. She's so smart.

[_ID_]

I growl out, "could you DO something?!?" in a tone of voice that even to me sounded alien. ~hears the gasps of "oh she didn't!"~ Yes, I did. And it was ugly. In my own defense, rarely does something like this ever occur. I mean it could be more frequent as I am very human, but I have more than a bit of self control when it comes to angry outbursts.

From a dominants point of view, and from a point of view that this type of behavior is one I actually avoid, rather than confront. I can understand why he didn't respond. However it also depends on how you react to being confronted. When upset like you were, if he had confronted you, would you have backed down, or would you have gotten more angry and let it escalate into a verbal fighting match? If you are the type of person who would have backed down, and he knows this. Then yes, I can understand your frustration. If you are the kind of person not to back down. Then I understand why he did nothing.

As to what it means for your relationship. Working on your verbal training would probably be a good place to start. Using Sir/Master at the beginning or ending of sentences for instance. Asking for permission to eat or leave the table when done eating, asking for permission to smoke or use the bathroom. Relearn your submission and be trained on how to speak, since this was the area that you had a problem in. Learning how to ask for something in a submissive form of speech would be what you should work on.

Now you might be thinking 'but you and karin failed, why is your advice any good?' Well, yes we failed, but it was due mostly to both of us not expressing our feelings, keeping them bottled up, and then when we couldn't stand it anymore we caused a fight over what we had previously not said bothered us. The breakdown in communication is what pushed us apart.

As a submissive, you may tend to not express your dislike or discomfort for a situation or activity because you want him happy. That is ok, what isn't ok is if he asks you are you ok with something, and you are not, yet you express you are. That is setting the whole situation up for failure. Same goes for him, and you may think as a Dominant he shouldn't be doing this. If he loves you, he won't be able to help doing it, making compromises due to the love you feel for someone comes quite naturally to people I think.

Anyway, hope my view helps.

[tessa]

I'll start off with my initial reaction to all the ideas and insights that have been presented...wow! I've read through these all a few times now. I am a bit overwhelmed at the time and thought put into it what's been said here.


Masterdarkone2000 - "I have read your story and I am glad that you had the courage to share this with the group. I know you feel like its a problem but it really isn't. You are jut breaking out of your shell that you have lived in and are now exploring. Its fine and you are not a problem."

It really wasn't courage, it is pretty much pathetic desperation, but I am trying to compose myself. The advice I am getting here helps a bunch! Thanks, Masterdarkone, for telling me I'm not the problem, just that I'm experiencing growing pains. I'll remind myself that you said that on one of those not so great days that happen now and again. :)


Rhabbi - "I have a slightly differant perspective that I would like to share withe you. I belong to a couple of Christain D/s groups that discuss this type of thing quite often. Culturally we have been taught that women are equal to men. (Please not, I do not want to debate this point, I am just trying to answer a question.)"

Not so different, not for me anyway as this is the perspective with which I tend to view things. And on the topic of equality...wouldn't dream of debating that point, as it's pretty much solid truth for me. :)


Rhabbi - "When you and your husband decided to enter into the D/s life neither of you truly understood the consequences on the rest of your life, especially in the presence of children. In your case the problem is compounded because your husband is more or less at the same stage you are, and does not yet feel comfortable exercising his Domness (Is that a word? If not, why not?) and will make mistakes. He was not wrong in helping you with the mess, at least not in my opinion, but he was wrong in not disciplining you for your anger. "

I don't understand much about D/s or parenting, so yeah, a bit adrift in all this. My husband's "Domness" (if it isn't a word, it should be) is my focus as that's also my goal. The mess was just a happenstance. It could have been anything going on. The issue for me still revolves around my action and his reaction. I will share with him your ideas on punishment. He is still trying to wrap his brain around that concept. Thank you so very much for your advice, Rhabbi! :)

Tom, Tom, Tom...so much to take in from your words. Where shall I start?


Seriously. If you stick to that guy it's going to be a long and bumpy ride. When it comes to sex it's always best to learn with an expert and both of you are pretty new to this. Being a good Master is extremly hard, (or maybe I just suck at it becuase it took me about 10 years). It's about making your submissive flower in her submissivenes. It's about making her happy. That requires a vast insight into how subs/women/people function. That'll take years to develop. And in my humble opinion best learned by sleeping around with a lot of women.

I am sure you didn't "suck" at it. It is terribly difficult to figure all this out, for both of us. We are going to have to be insightful for each other, I believe. And I am going to stick with him. He is the perfect man for me. Maybe I am a bit greedy for wanting him to be the perfect-for-me Dominant as well, but it won't keep me from working at this with him. Learning with an expert just might be the ticket to our paradise. I'll give him your idea. I have to say that while I'm not so keen on the idea of my husband sleeping around with a lot of women (even for the reason of learning more), for myself, I am quite intrigued by it. That expert doesn't necessarily have to be male, I wouldn't think. My, the images that idea has spawned. ;)


and my slaves input is that being with a beginner Master probably means a lot of suffering for you. Her advice is to slowly introduce slave rules. A little at a time and talk a lot about them all the time. Jumping straight into 24/7 will just lead to confusion. Another thing about the rules is: they can't just be random rules. It must be something that he always have wanted somebody to do for him. Something that makes him horny. Not just things he's just too lazy to do himself. I love her. She's so smart.

I have pretty much decided to suffer for the cause. It just might lead to a better kind of suffering later on. You are one fortunate Master! She is indeed very smart. I'm loving her pretty much all up right now, too. Please pass along my sincere appreciation to her for her advice. And my deepest thanks to you, Tom, for focusing your Dominant mind in my direction. Your insight, as always, rings so very true for me.

And ID, I am heartsick for you and what you are going through. I do not in any way think your words of advice any less valid than the others. And while I wish you weren't having to deal with this, your insight in many ways, is a bit more poignant for me because of your loss. You of all people know just how difficult managing and maintaining a D/s life can be, even when it is pretty much what both people desire.


From a dominants point of view, and from a point of view that this type of behavior is one I actually avoid, rather than confront. I can understand why he didn't respond. However it also depends on how you react to being confronted. When upset like you were, if he had confronted you, would you have backed down, or would you have gotten more angry and let it escalate into a verbal fighting match? If you are the type of person who would have backed down, and he knows this. Then yes, I can understand your frustration. If you are the kind of person not to back down. Then I understand why he did nothing.

You pretty much nailed it dead center with this. He isn't the confrontational type, but he also knows very well that I will back down instantly in the face of his Dominance. For years, when we knew even less than the little we know now, I was very diligent in responding submissively to any show of a Dominant spirit my husband flashed at me. Still am diligent about it, though I relapse into "bitch mode" occasionally. :( And lately, we've discussed that very topic quite openly. So that situation in the kitchen frustrated us both. Despite our recent conversations, he didn't want to confront my behavior and was confused by it. I was upset that I acted that way in the first place AND that he did nothing to correct it. I've said it before...it'd be laughable if I could be less serious about it.


As to what it means for your relationship. Working on your verbal training would probably be a good place to start. Using Sir/Master at the beginning or ending of sentences for instance. Asking for permission to eat or leave the table when done eating, asking for permission to smoke or use the bathroom. Relearn your submission and be trained on how to speak, since this was the area that you had a problem in. Learning how to ask for something in a submissive form of speech would be what you should work on.

My thanks for putting these very doable suggestions out there for us to use. It makes such wonderful sense to me! And my most sincere gratitude for using the circumstances in your life to show me how to better deal with mine. That is a very special thing to do, ID. :)

Again, wow! I am most thankful for all the insight!

tessa :wave:

[_ID_]

I hope it helps. In order for him to be Dom, you must present that you are willing to submit to him being Dom. A Dom without a sub is just a pushy asshole.

[TomOfSweden]

That expert doesn't necessarily have to be male, I wouldn't think. My, the images that idea has spawned. ;)


Off course not. I'm no sexist. Slavery is also an art.

[tessa]

by ID
I hope it helps. In order for him to be Dom, you must present that you are willing to submit to him being Dom. A Dom without a sub is just a pushy asshole.

The very last thing anyone would call my husband is pushy. Now, a few people that work for him may call him an asshole, but that's because he's a very by-the-book type man. Some people prefer some flexibility at the work place, like showing up late every day, or not even showing up at all, and then expect him to be okay with that. But that's another topic entirely. Your words do help, ID. Very much so. Again, my thanks to you. :)



by tessa
That expert doesn't necessarily have to be male, I wouldn't think. My, the images that idea has spawned.

by Tom
Off course not. I'm no sexist. Slavery is also an art.

After reading over what I posted, I was worried that my words would be interpreted in a manner I didn't intend. I'd never call you sexist, Tom. I imagine that many words with 'sex' as the root portion apply to you, but definitely not the one with the suffix 'ist'. I was, in a way that didn't come across so well :o, sifting through the ideas your advice brought to mind. That's all. And in the wake of all the good insight, hopefully, I can start my own art project in the near future.

tessa :wave:

[Rhabbi]

Learning with an expert just might be the ticket to our paradise. I'll give him your idea. I have to say that while I'm not so keen on the idea of my husband sleeping around with a lot of women (even for the reason of learning more), for myself, I am quite intrigued by it. That expert doesn't necessarily have to be male, I wouldn't think. My, the images that idea has spawned.

A common misconception is that BDSM play has to be about sex. Sex is nice, but trust is important to, and if someone insists on sex as a part of play you should avoid them. You will learn this as you become more familiar with the lifestyle.

As for guidance, or mentoring, that is probably a good idea, discuss all aspects of it, and see if you are comfortable with it in R/l. If not, just ask around here, we are more than willing to help.

[TomOfSweden]

A common misconception is that BDSM play has to be about sex. Sex is nice, but trust is important to, and if someone insists on sex as a part of play you should avoid them. You will learn this as you become more familiar with the lifestyle.

As for guidance, or mentoring, that is probably a good idea, discuss all aspects of it, and see if you are comfortable with it in R/l. If not, just ask around here, we are more than willing to help.

I meant it as a good way on learning human behaviour. A way to learn being a better person. Because, well....it was my school. It worked for me. I learned humility and to listen. I learned how to be greedy and violent and still have her begging for more. I killed off all my missconceptions of what it meant being submissive, and opened my mind to ignoring the "rules". Just because something worked for me doesn't have to mean that it will necesarily work for anybody else. There's plenty of guys who've screwed around a lot who haven't a clue. I didn't mean it as a fun game part of a BDSM relationship. It may be great. Both exciting and fun but it wasn't what I meant. It could just as well do a lot of damage, (but you don't need me to tell you that).

Fucking an experienced slave is off-course a fast track into it, but they're elusive creatures who shy away from beginner Masters, (for good reason he he).

edit: Even though it sounds very contradictory, considering I hang out here a lot. I belive theory on BDSM can't get you very far. First hand experience is required for any of the theory to make any sense. Again, this is me using myself as a reference. It may be that I'm not as quick as the rest of you but I would need personal guidance as well :)

[tessa]

Because, well....it was my school. It worked for me. I learned humility and to listen. I learned how to be greedy and violent and still have her begging for more. I killed off all my missconceptions of what it meant being submissive, and opened my mind to ignoring the "rules". Just because something worked for me doesn't have to mean that it will necesarily work for anybody else. First hand experience is required for any of the theory to make any sense. Again, this is me using myself as a reference.

Tom, what you have experienced and learned for yourself is exactly the type information I was hoping for when I posed this question in the first place. I can take all the pieces put out there and assimilate them into a working construct that will assist my husband and I in learning more and more...and more, hopefully. So again, thank you. What you offered up as advice and insight is quite a valuable resource for me.


As for guidance, or mentoring, that is probably a good idea

I agree, Rhabbi. My focus here isn't about ways to have better kinky sex. We already have a good bit of that. And what a grand secondary, but not my main objective. Nor my husband's. That's why Tom's advice to seek the input of an expert made perfect sense to me. Receiving guidance from someone who already has a working knowledge of the BDSM process would be a damn good resource as well.


It may be that I'm not as quick as the rest of you but I would need personal guidance as well :)

:) Your sense of humor just cracks me up, Tom. I'm still wiping away the laugh-y tears.

[Rhabbi]

Even though it sounds very contradictory, considering I hang out here a lot. I belive theory on BDSM can't get you very far. First hand experience is required for any of the theory to make any sense. Again, this is me using myself as a reference. It may be that I'm not as quick as the rest of you but I would need personal guidance as well :)

Tom,

We all need practical experience and mentoring. At least I did. When I first started I made horrendous mistakes, now I just make mistakes.

[moptop]

Dear Masters all, (no Mistresses in this thread I note) - just wanted to say thank you, as an interested on-looker and student. I do appreciate the opportunity to learn how you learn. And I appreciate what I learn from it, too.

And Tessa, you know I'm cheering both of you on in your other thread.

[Masterdarkone2000]

I am glad that we could all help you and give you guidance along the way. I know that things aren't always easy when you start out but as you two stay together and learn it will get easier. There are many good books out there like the Tops book and the bottoms book and screw the roses give me the thorns that give lots of good information. You may consider looking these up and or purchasing them to help you two learn and find your place. I am also glad to see that you making it through the growing pains and learning.