On honesty and feminism

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hello, All.

I figured that, since my king & I have been hanging around here for some time, I should go ahead & introduce myself as he has. Obviously, I’m a submissive, married to my dom for just over 4 years. We are basically living the lifestyle 24/7, barring the normal barriers of reasonability regarding things like making a living, etc. We have only recently been honest with each other about needing a D/s lifestyle & it has saved our relationship (read below if you want to know about that). We especially enjoy spanking, flogging, hair pulling & humiliation. I’m an oral whore – love to suck cock with a passion & am, so I’ve been told, rather skilled…plus, my king has a very pretty cock that just makes my mouth water. I’m also an anal slut – my king has claimed my ass as his & does with it whatever he wants, helping me realize that I actually enjoy it very much. My king is particularly skilled at bringing out the naughty little slut in me when it comes to begging for what I really want, particularly when I want to cum. We’ve just started exploring face slapping, full-body strapping, abrasion play, fantasy rape (he doesn’t know it yet, but one of our rules is that I must come clean about & set up one of my fantasies every 2nd week of each month, and I’m planning to reveal this one this weekend :264:), and some possible body modifications (branding, tattooing – marking his territory & such, more body piercing, etc.). Can’t think of much else ya’all might want to know, but you can always ask. We are both exceedingly blunt & don’t shy easily from any topic, so feel free. Other than that, hope to make new friends & learn all the while.

Hugs & Spankins!
Stone’s Slut


How D/s saved our marriage, cont….

There were tons of reason our marriage was failing (medical problems, money problems resulting from medical problems, a kid out of control across the country, undiagnosed depression & bipolarism, half-assed communication, dishonesty about our needs, etc.) but I realize now that, for my part, I had one particular problem: you see, I am a feminist. What kind of feminist wants her man to humiliate her & punish her for not following his demands? What kind of feminist wants to be spanked, slapped, be collared & kneel before a man in submission? As educated as I was about feminism & sexuality (I’m a history prof with several areas of emphases, including women & gender relations), I could not reconcile my perceptions about what being a feminist entails with these thoughts, & so shoved them down into that place that we don’t reveal to anyone, including ourselves. On the same note, my king followed the same misperceptions in determining his behavior in our relationship, hiding his dom nature (though not well, lol) under a vanilla coating that we soon both came to resent without knowing why. Despite being best friends, we were both dishonest about what we are, what we need, & what we desire. (Not to mention, we were totally incorrect about feminism being incompatible with D/s…you can ask me to elaborate on those thoughts if you are interested.)

Eventually, the proverbial shit hit the fan & I left him. Lucky for us, we had supportive friends & family encouraging us to not make hasty decisions that would cause us to throw away a good thing. I realized that we had to examine some things about ourselves & our relationship. I asked him to make a list of the things we needed to fix, what he was willing to do, & what he needed from me. I, in turn, came to the conclusion that my being a submissive was not contrary or exclusive of my being a feminist & that I had unfairly expected him to “fix” things that I had not shared with him. I had to come clean to give him an opportunity to address ALL of our problems – not just the ones I was comfortable with.

So, as hard as it was, I busted out with the truth & explained that all of the work we might do otherwise to rebuild our relationship wouldn’t mean a thing if we couldn’t address the D/s issue. To my surprise, he reacted quite well….quite ;) We got him some help for his bipolarism/depression & we started over again with the policy of complete honesty (true, full honesty – not just the honesty we thought we had had before this whole thing). Through D/s, we have been able to build a relationship based on trust, a healthy exchange of power, support, acceptance, & love. We no longer feel the need to take from the other to serve our own needs, but rather give & receive in all things in a way that serves us both. I am able to submit without sacrificing my individuality, independence, & identity – relishing in the release of control & feeding the pleaser in me. He is able to dominate without the fear of disrespecting our friendship & love – releasing his true wicked & evil nature. We are intimate in a way we have never had before. Our sex life is amazing – we talk about everything; he fucks at least one of my holes every day; he punishes & rewards me as he sees fit; both of us are completely satisfied each night when we go to sleep; we both feel loved.

The only thing I believe we regret is that it took us so long to be fully honest. If we had been, we might have avoided loads of hurt & resentment; we wouldn’t have wasted all of this time being dishonest &, now, healing the wounds we’ve caused each other; we wouldn’t have gotten to the point of loosing our marriage before realizing how much we wanted to be with one another. As I tell people, just because you love someone doesn’t mean you should be with them…You have to WANT to be with someone; you have to have trust, communication, & a regular, damn satisfying fuck - all necessary! :) If the latter includes BDSM or D/s, then that’s not something you can fully forfeit without loosing yourself &, eventually, your relationship. I don’t speak in judgment (every situation is different, I know), but rather out of empathy & sympathy. I hope that others can take our story into consideration if they are sacrificing so much by hiding who they are to save a relationship that will inevitably fail because it is lacking true trust & honesty. Thanks for taking the time to read on, by the way.

Hugs & Spankins! (again, lol)
Stone’s Slut

[Stone]

Good post my preciuos little slut

[BaronVonWinger]

Hi & welcome, its good to have u guys here.

[cadence]

Hello and Welcome
You have written an excellent and thought provoking post.
Your story has definately hit home with me.
My b/f and I have only just started to address the D/s issue, and it took me an extremely long time to even start to express myself to him.
Our relationship had become so stagnant for so long, it became a comfortable thing between us.

And I hope I am not the only one who would like to hear your thoughts on feminism being incompatible with D/s. I would have agreed with that statement as well.

[STONE'sSLUT]

MasterStone: Thank you, my king. I am always happy to hear that I have pleased you.
BaronVonWinger: Hello & thank you very much.
cadence: Hello, Thank you for the welcome and your kind words. I sympathize with your situation – we are not long out from where you two are now. I so glad to hear you shared that part of yourself with him. IMO, only good can come of it. I encourage you to keep that in mind as you continue exploring – even, perhaps especially, during the rocky moments we all face in determining our boundaries and interests. Since I read your post, I’ve been typing madly away. I hope what follows will answer your questions about my point of view…

I garnered my definition of feminism from two areas: my upbringing – which was basically feminist when it came to me, but very traditional when it came to gender roles within the household; my undergrad & graduate education – which involved the study of history with concentrations in gender relations, Women's Studies & psychology of prejudice. Through my studies, I learned the basic definition of the word, feminism:

1: the theory of the political, economic, & social equality of the sexes
2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights & interests

I also began to see many contradictory &, frankly, hypocritical beliefs & agendas that I could not ascribe to placed under the protection of claiming it as a feminist ideal (discussed below). Despite becoming increasingly confused by the ambiguity of much of my sister-feminists’ rhetoric, I was particularly influenced by the idea that being a feminist meant taking control of all aspects of one’s life – in & out of the bedroom. The idea of rebuking any kind of dominance & refusing to feed my submissive nature seemed to make sense in the context of the old axiom: “give an inch, they take a mile.” To address this fully, let me first cover some of my issues with some “feminist” suppositions:

Firstly, the definition of feminism clearly addresses the interaction between the individual/group with society in the public sphere, yet some seem to indiscriminatingly apply it to issues well outside the public realm of influence. For example, the claim that “patriarchy-approved” activity between consenting individuals – such as giving head, having sex doggystyle, or enjoying BDSM – somehow calls for shaming women for their sexual choices (something I never have & never will support). This seems entirely outside addressing public equality for women, & much more in the realm of setting up yet still more socially motivated, oppressive dictates that are used to control women’s sexual behavior.

Secondly, I see a distinct difference between feminism & female supremacy. There are definitely inequalities between people – those who claim otherwise are simply not letting the truth stand in the way of setting up their agenda as sacrosanct. Truthfully, there are a plethora of factors that make us unequal – I just don’t believe that gender is one of them. Being a woman is a wonderful thing…but it doesn’t make me “better” by simple virtue of what’s between my legs. THAT idea is much more suited to coming from the supporters of the patriarchy, IMO.

Thirdly, I abhor the suggestion that dominance over & the degradation of one gender is a necessary evil for the other to maintain basic human rights. This should really coincide with the issue of female supremacy being a completely separate & virtually diametrically opposed ideal to feminism by virtue of the definition of equality, but I separate the two because I believe that we all too often feel the need to “right the wrongs” of the white male privileged patriarchy by creating an exceedingly hostile world for men by stripping them of every vestige of their identities as male & making socially dictated & inherent characteristics of manhood anathema to our “modern” world. This leads me to the next point…

Fourthly, I don’t believe that appropriately cultivating, appreciating, &/or celebrating the culturally dictated & inherent differences in the sexes goes against any feminist tenant. I feel that it is important that we look to the biological differences as something to be proud of – not ashamed of (generally, women are soft while men are hard; men are physically stronger while women have astounding physical endurance/pain tolerance…I could go on, but you get the picture). There is a purpose for the differences & I see no reason to look upon them as a “curse,” but prefer to see them as a gift.

Continuing on this point, I refuse to see simple acts of consideration (the least I would do for a roommate or stranger – i.e. doing laundry, keeping house, etc. or opening the door, etc.) for the person I love as some affront to my personhood – or his! And I certainly don’t believe that a woman asking to be treated “like a woman,” or a man asking to be treated “like a man,” should be viewed as some kind acquiescence to the idea that gender should dictate political, economic, or social equality. As much as I am a feminist, so am I a realist. There are traditions & expectations that determine how the different genders behave & interact that are so deeply entrenched in & imperative to the continuance of our unique culture, with the benefit of both sexes in mind, that they must be modified & added to, not wholly eradicated. As a simple example, men have consistently been charged with two main purposes throughout human history: provide & protect. Who would benefit by removing (or wrestling?) those responsibilities from their hands? Would it not be more efficient to allow women to equally join in these responsibilities?

Fifthly, the general sentiment I consistently hear from too many “open-minded, forward thinking, non-judgmental” feminist seems to be, “You can’t judge me because it’s wrong. I won’t judge you – as long as you believe, follow & espouse exactly what I do.” My personal ethics do not allow me to view my beliefs, lifestyle, & choices as qualifying me to dictate these things to others. I may well think you are an idiot, but I am completely comfortable with agreeing to disagree & do not see it as my duty to intervene in any way until laws we have all agreed upon have been violated. So….

What I see much more clearly today as a submissive, as a feminist, & as a loving partner, is that this ideal of feminism being equivalent to completely governing a relationship sets up the inevitability of one partner always being oppressed by the other who TAKES control. In better understanding the basics of the power dynamic in any type of healthy relationship (consensual giving & receiving), I have come to the conclusion that those of us involved in D/s are actually much more honest in our dealings involving control & power than most in the vanilla world, & can therefore support truly feminist ideals with the very kind of relationship so many hold up as an abomination (Hey – at least the feminist & the religious zealot can find common ground, huh? ;)). Rather than a woman “fighting” for control of her life, I believe D/s (from the perspective of a submissive, of course) allows a woman the freedom to CHOOSE what aspects of her life she is willing to relinquish, which issues she is willing to compromise on, & what her hard lines are – all shared in a manner that is loving, respectful, & cooperatively progressing toward happiness for all involved. Any healthy relationship should require trust, honesty and communication, but they are all absolutely imperative in a D/s relationship. None of that, for me, calls my feminism into question. In fact, the idea that a woman should be equally invested in her relationship with someone who respects her needs & desires fits perfectly into my more fully developed understanding of feminism as an ideal & a lifestyle. After all, is that not what feminism ultimately calls for?

Well, I think I’ve ranted enough for tonight. I’ve been up typing for hours, so if there is something that doesn’t make sense or grievous grammatical errors, please forgive me & feel free to ask me for clarification or justification.

Hugs & Spankins!
Stone’s Slut

[cariad]

Yes, this thread is also in the intro's section, but I thought it was too good to allow it to get rapidly lost there; so I have copied it here...

cariad

[STONE'sSLUT]

thanks again! :)

[Hime]

Hi SS! :)

Interesting points. I'm also a feminist and a submissive, though I don't think I agree with your whole argument. I think what I find most comforting about the BDSM community as a feminist is the fact that gender doesn't determine whether a person is Dominant or not; it's just based on which way makes them feel more comfortable. Especially being bi, I feel that if I trusted and loved another woman, I could be happy submitting to her the way I do to my Master. :) (not that I fantasize about Dominant women... very much... per week... :o)

Basically, I don't think that it's a contradiction for a feminist to believe in doing what makes him or her happy, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

[J's blu]

cariad, i thank you for putting this post here. i would have missed it in the intros.

Stones' slut, thank you! for an amazingly well written introduction and
mini-essay with some thought provoking ideas. i must say i agree with you.
thank you for posting.
respectfully blu

[STONE'sSLUT]

Thank you both.

[Mothbrad]

Stone'sSlut - a very thought provoking and interesting post, that I could spend many hours commenting on and talking about. I once was in a class with somebody who was writing a thesis on 'masochism and feminism' (or something to that effect) - I'd love to have read what she wrote, but unfortunately didn't really catch up with her after that time.

I think the most important thing is that (unless we are TRULY sick ;) ) ideology will never get us hard/wet - we can't control what turns us on based on what's polite or politically expedient or historically correct. Feminists who deny that are, to me, exactly the same as religious fundamentalists who believe that they can be 'trained' out of being homosexual.

Good luck with your relationship's continuing success, and hope to see more of your writing here :)

[STONE'sSLUT]

great points!

and thank you :)

[fantassy]

I agree that feminist writings often seem to go too far, but ... I still see such rampant discrimination against women in society. Look at the directors and officer of most corporations, lucky if they have one token woman. Even though law schools graduate males and females in nearly equal amounts, look at the partners of most major lawfirms and you will find few females. Why are teachers constantly fighting for higher pay? Because it is seen as a female profession. Look at women politicians. You cannot miss the commentary about their hairstyles, makeup and clothes; whereas you hear about male politicians actions and ideas. Because of this discrimination, we often see that women must be superior to men just in order to be perceived/treated as equals. I don't believe women are superior to men. People fall along a spectrum. Lots of women have certain characteristics which society has come to consider "feminine." However, although not as numerous many men have those same "feminine" characteristics, just as some women have more of what society characterizes as "masculine" characteristics, such as analytical thinking, strength of will, aggression, protectiveness, single-mindedness, than most men. Feminists are just trying to get society to recognize the full spectrum of people.

Just my 2 cents.

fantassy

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hi, fantasy.

Thanks for your 2 cents ;) I’m a bit unclear where I stated that feminist writings go too far…I think that a lot depends on your definition of “feminist.” I don’t believe that feminism means legislating special consideration for women or other minorities. Frankly, I find that concept insulting…If I were ever to get a position based solely on my gender, wouldn’t that make me a hypocrite at the highest level? I don’t think taking a backhanded swipe at the white male privileges patriarchy in that manner is kosher or desired by true feminists. Personally, I would much rather see our society turn towards making gender a NON issue when hiring than making it THE issue. Recognition – yes; special treatment – absolutely not. Discrimination is alive and well – and always will be, IMO, as it is inherently human to divide people into “us & them.” I don’t see it disappearing with more laws forcing preferential treatment for the oppressed. Seems to me, this causes even more problems than it fixes & should be removed altogether. (Yes, even those laws that may give me an extra leg up.) When one looks to the ideology and agendas of many who claim to be “feminists,” I find fewer who do not want gender to be considered & more who seem to simply want the axe to fall on the other side of the line. I hope that we soon see more voices coming from a purely feminist perspective rather than a politically motivated agenda. And I think that discussions like this one, with so many different perspectives, are a small step towards that. Thanks again!

Be Well
SS

[Binder]

Stone'sSlut, Thanks for a most thoughtful post. I really learned something, I enjoy learning. To be honest I almost skipped reading this thread because it deals with feminism. I'm glad I read it, now I know more, and understand more.
One thing I have learned, and keep learning, is what a great community is in BDSM, truly open minded, thoughtful, learning, teaching, non-judging...the list goes on...
Of course there are turds in the BDSM world as there are in the feminism world, but, generally speaking...

[crikey_2004]

Since everyone went to so much trouble to provide such thought provoking material, I decided that I wanted to have a say too. I'm not a learned man. In fact, I flunked high school, so I sometimes have difficulty getting the concepts you've discussed here to stick in my noggin, but I'm trying really hard to wade through it, because I see it as fundamentally worthwhile stuff I ought to know.

But one thing struck a note that I can relate to very well. It seems to me that the people who took the time to sign up at this website and actually interact with the other members are, as far as I'm concerned the sort of people who deserve to always be happy and are, as Binder put it, as far removed from the 'turds' of the BDSM world as it's possible to get. Thank you all and I just love the privilege of being here.

[cheeseburger]

Cutting the crap, feminism is about equality. Both genders are equal. You can go on for days describing how a man and a woman are equal, but what it boils down to is control.

When both (genders) have equal control, i.e. when none 'have' control over the other, they're equal.

Now I know BDSM or D/s play really has nothing to do with gender, but still. When you say you're a feminist - that, by the way, enjoys it when her man dominates her - just sounds a little funny.

It's almost like you agree, in principle, that men and women are equal. But, personally, you enjoy being a little less equal for the night.

Like the big priest guy that went down in flames a while back. He was against gay marriage, gay rights, gay anything, and oh by the way - he was gay.

If you accept some overarching philosophy, such as feminism, it adds to your credibility if you live by it as well as preach it.

Again, this post is not a personal attack on anyone on this message board and I'm not trying to be rude. If you read any of my previous posts, you'll get the picture. No flame wars, please.

[crikey_2004]

Fast food, straight talk. Say what you mean with no fluff. Some would say, desirable attributes in a person :)

[cheeseburger]

Some would say, desirable attributes in a person :)

...and the rest just throw bricks at you.

[gloombunny]

Cutting the crap, feminism is about equality. Both genders are equal. You can go on for days describing how a man and a woman are equal, but what it boils down to is control.

When both (genders) have equal control, i.e. when none 'have' control over the other, they're equal.

Now I know BDSM or D/s play really has nothing to do with gender, but still. When you say you're a feminist - that, by the way, enjoys it when her man dominates her - just sounds a little funny.

It's almost like you agree, in principle, that men and women are equal. But, personally, you enjoy being a little less equal for the night.

Like the big priest guy that went down in flames a while back. He was against gay marriage, gay rights, gay anything, and oh by the way - he was gay.

If you accept some overarching philosophy, such as feminism, it adds to your credibility if you live by it as well as preach it.

Again, this post is not a personal attack on anyone on this message board and I'm not trying to be rude. If you read any of my previous posts, you'll get the picture. No flame wars, please.
There's a huge difference between living a certain way because you chose it for yourself, and living a certain way because your society forced you into it.

Feminism isn't just about wanting things for onesself. Enjoying M/f or F/m or F/f personally isn't important from the perspective of feminism; what counts is whether you believe that every woman should have the ability to enter into whatever kind of relationship she wants. And every man too, for that matter; despite the name, feminism isn't only about promoting women's rights.

(Of course, this is all for my version of feminism. If you look hard enough you can find people espousing all sorts of ideas and calling them feminist. There are even "feminists" who oppose F/f BDSM on the grounds that it recreates patriarchal power structures in a female relationship. :rolleyes: Obviously the word means different things to different people.)

[crikey_2004]

Thank you NatalieD.

I grew up in a world where a feminist was a lesbian with an opinion (hey, I was young and I knew no better!) Nothing more, nothing less... Then it got all complicated and feminists became straight women with opinions, then gay men with opinions about what is is to be a woman, then...

Well, in my opinion, feminists ought to be people who like people enough to respect females and males alike. Then we could just get rid of the word feminist and replace it with humanist... but that's probably too simple huh?

[Binder]

Feminism isn't just about wanting things for onesself. Enjoying M/f or F/m or F/f personally isn't important from the perspective of feminism; what counts is whether you believe that every woman should have the ability to enter into whatever kind of relationship she wants. And every man too, for that matter; despite the name, feminism isn't only about promoting women's rights.
emphasis Mine.

That's what I got out of Stone'sSlut's post, and am thankful that I understood it that way.
I am from a very small southern town, deep in the bible belt. One doesn't have to have much of an imagination to imagine what I was brought up to believe feminism is all about. To make matters worse I moved to "the big city" where the feminism in my head was re-enforced by loud feminists.
I learned also this lesson with regards to gay people. One should not judge people by the loudest group within that group. To try and help y'all make sense out of that last sentence...
When I moved to Atlanta I was faced with Act Out and Gay Pride Day. Talk about culture shock! It wasn't until later that I found some of my friends are gay. They are nothing like what I saw, and they're embarrassed by the way some of the gay community act. The same way I'm embarrassed with the way some of the people from my hometown act out with regards to certain things.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
I try not to pass judgment, but, of course I am only human.
This is why I'm so thankful to have found this forum, there are many thinking people here, my kind of place.

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hi, Binder. Thanks for replying. I'm glad you read the post anyway & that you feel like you "walked" away with some different perspectives. I totally agree about the community & the turds ;)

Hi, crikey. Thanks for your thoughts. First, I'd like to opine that graduating & being learned are two different things. :) Experience outweighs book learning any day, IMO. Second, if anything I may post isn't clear, please feel free to question or ask for clarification - I reiterate my thoughts daily for my students, so no worries there. Third, I don't know that we lack for turds here ;) but I share your sentiment that I'm glad to be here. By the by – LOL – I like that definition (from your third post). :) Thanks again!

Hello, cheeseburger. Thank for sharing your thoughts. I’m not sure what you mean by “flame wars,” but I hope that doesn’t mean you expect some of your comments to go unaddressed. ;) Now, I agree that feminism is about equality. I think that’s clear in the definition I provided – both from the dictionary & my own thoughts. Where I believe you and I diverge is at the assertion that engaging in a consensual exchange of power somehow makes one partner less than the other, as well as at the point where those living the D/s lifestyle, if they claim to be feminists, are hypocrites (i.e. the comparison to the gay anti-gay preacher). I disagree on both points. At the moment that I submit, or that my husband dominates, does that mean that I am less or he is more able or deserving to participate as an equal voice in government, earn the same rate of pay for the same work, or to be treated with consideration as a peer in the community/society rather than be treated as a weak-minded, inherently unintelligent, eternal child in need of protection? Perhaps some believe that, but that concept is not part of my definition of D/s. Nor do I see any specific sexual predilection as tantamount to living those ideals. Believing, preaching, and living these ideals has nothing to do, IMO, with the fact that I like to be spanked, have my hair pulled, or called his precious little slut. Fact is, we share responsibility and make decisions as equal partners. I see nothing in that which goes against feminism…..perhaps you can clarify on that point. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Hi, NatalieD. Thanks for replying! Great points – all. :) (thought I had stated that, too – the word definitely means different things to different people, but thanks for hitting that again – hugs)

Hi, again, Binder! Once again – thank you for sharing your thoughts. Also great points. I’m glad that’s what you walked away with.

Hugs & Spankins & Be Well
SS

[cheeseburger]

What's the opposite of feminisim? I'd say a D/s relationship, where a female is the s and a male is the D comes pretty close.

You have one philosophy which you claim to be a professor of, and the opposite philosophy which you actually practice.

It's a purely academic observation. I'm not suggesting that everyone who holds contradictory views should be jailed or some nonsense.

Read what I write very carefully. I'm not saying I agree (or disagree) with feminism.


I’m not sure what you mean by “flame wars,”
Spend some quality time on urbandictionary.com .

[fantassy]

What's the opposite of feminisim? I'd say a D/s relationship, where a female is the s and a male is the D comes pretty close. So, as long as you agree with that, it should be pretty obvious why you're a hypocrite. You have one philosophy which you claim to be a professor of, and the opposite philosophy which you actually practice.
Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. There is such a huge variety in D/S relationships. that generalization would be extremely narrow-minded even if it were true in some cases. However, I maintain D/S is not the opposite of feminism because even in the most extreme cases, the sub retains the essential right to leave the relationship if the Dom is not behaving in a way that make the sub happy. Feminists fight for women to have the right to make that same decision - to know they have the option to leave and be in total control of their lives if they are not made happy by their situation. As previously stated, feminism is about choices. Moreover, many of us in D/S relationships restrict our D/S to certain areas of life and are in complete control of out lives in other areas. So I give up control in sexual matters, so what? My Dom knows if he doesn't use that control in a way that ultimately pleases me, I will take it back. So how does that make me less of a feminist? I control my finances, my employees, to a certain extent the futures of both my male and female clients, and make all the major decisions affecting my life. The fact that I enjoy being sexually submissive does not make my calling myself a feminist the least bit hypocritical. I both profess and practice feminism in my daily life. Believe me, like any good feminist, I have no problems squashing a male (or female) asshole like a bug when I encounter one.

By the way, isn't calling someone a hypocrite - a flame?

fantassy

[Warbaby1943]

Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. There is such a huge variety in D/S relationships. that generalization would be extremely narrow-minded even if it were true in some cases. However, I maintain D/S is not the opposite of feminism because even in the most extreme cases, the sub retains the essential right to leave the relationship if the Dom is not behaving in a way that make the sub happy. Feminists fight for women to have the right to make that same decision - to know they have the option to leave and be in total control of their lives if they are not made happy by their situation. As previously stated, feminism is about choices. Moreover, many of us in D/S relationships restrict our D/S to certain areas of life and are in complete control of out lives in other areas. So I give up control in sexual matters, so what? My Dom knows if he doesn't use that control in a way that ultimately pleases me, I will take it back. So how does that make me less of a feminist? I control my finances, my employees, to a certain extent the futures of both my male and female clients, and make all the major decisions affecting my life. The fact that I enjoy being sexually submissive does not make my calling myself a feminist the least bit hypocritical. I both profess and practice feminism in my daily life. Believe me, like any good feminist, I have no problems squashing a male (or female) asshole like a bug when I encounter one.

By the way, isn't calling someone a hypocrite - a flame?

fantassy
Amen, fantassy.

I have always loved your posts. You always make so much sense but maybe that is because I agree with you.

[Mothbrad]

I certainly don't want to flame anyone, but here are some examples of what I would call 'the opposite of feminism' (BTW, these are not referring to one particular culture necessarily):

- a culture in which the families of girls getting married must pay large dowries, or else have the girl burned to death;
- a culture in which women are not allowed to drive, vote, work jobs, own property, etc);
- a culture in which women are not allowed sexual pleasure, ensured by genital mutilation; ...

I could go on.

Except in fantasy, these have nothing to do with D/s relationships as we know and support them.

[Stone]

What you seem to be talking about is owning a slave that is mindless and at your whims but thats ok some so called doms can not handle a strong woman or a sub.I will point this out to you if a sub does not hand over her power to you where does that leave you? powerless? so who has the real power in a D/S relationship? So on that thought if she doesnt hand over the power and you take it what does that make you? A rapist? A fledgling serial killer in the making?

[~hellish one~]

ATTENTION

Ok guys...here is your ONE and only warning. Keep it civil or i will not hesitate to lock this thread. Think before you hit that "submit" button below and post something you will later regret or that will get you banned. We do not allow flaming in any form. Degrading someone or calling them names is NOT allowed.

This is a great thread...one i am very glad was started. It has proven to be very informative so far so don't ruin it. Play nice. i'm not singling anyone out...just speaking in general terms. Thank you.

bg

[gloombunny]

What's the opposite of feminisim? I'd say a D/s relationship, where a female is the s and a male is the D comes pretty close.
A consensual relationship, with openly negotiated and voluntarily assumed roles, is close to the opposite of a philosophy born in large part as a reaction to a cultural legacy of imposed powerlessness and forced assumption of unwanted roles?


It's a purely academic observation. I'm not suggesting that everyone who holds contradictory views should be jailed or some nonsense.

Read what I write very carefully. I'm not saying I agree (or disagree) with feminism.

Do these disclaimers ever actually convince anyone?

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hello, cheeseburger. First, I’d like to thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I always appreciate different perspectives – even if I don’t agree with them. Second, I have been to urbandictionary.com before. A purely academic observation: it’s an amusing collection of user-submitted explanations of slang words & invented terminology, as well as opinion-based, sometimes hilarious definitions for real words (often with just a pinch of sarcasm & even smaller amounts of evidence to back them up). I opt to rely on the actual dictionary for my definitions, but thanks all the same for the recommendation. Third, the opposite of feminism (humanism? lol thanks, crikey :)) is sexism, which I don’t think has any place in D/s. Nor do I ascribe to a single bit of sexism, both professing & living the opposite. (Wonder what that makes me….beyond being a hypocrite, of course.) Perhaps some include it in their lifestyle, but it is not a part of mine. So said, I think I should do three things at this point:

1) clarify that I did not mean to imply that I fathom your position on feminism. If anything I’ve posted seems to indicate that, I apologize. And just to let you know, I read each post carefully, so please rest assured that I am reading yours with the same attentiveness.

2) take full responsibility for not recognizing that my several years of study, my 4 degrees in the History of Women & the Psychology of Prejudice, my work to further women’s rights in my daily life (not only through my job as an educator, but also through community activism), my time living in a real-life D/s relationship with tons of research & careful consideration helping us along – oh, & my being a woman living in our male privileged patriarchy (all of which have led me to develop my very own little thoughts & opinions) - cannot possibly compare to the vast experience & obvious breadth of expertise of some others here (such as yourself), both on “feminism & D/s” & on my beliefs/convictions vs. my lifestyle, built on respected resources like the less than 10 posts of consequence that I’ve made on this forum outside the “Fun & Games” section &, undoubtedly, the ever-reliable urbandictionary.com. Again – very sorry. I’ll be sure to remember that the next time I misguidedly post anything that challenges such unmistakably superior astuteness on topics such as these.

3) offer that the best course is often to simply agree to disagree. For example, I see neither of us convincing the other of our position on this topic and so think that it’s probably a waste of time for either of us to continue down this path. Agreed? Great! :)

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

Hello, Fantassy – Thanks for posting! Great points – especially about restricting D/s to certain portions of our lives. Sounds very much like my own relationship. Oh, and the squashing of assholes ;) Wonderful post. Hugs!

Hi, Warbaby! Thanks for the PM, by the by, and I agree with you – having read a number of Fantassy’s posts, I almost always think they are spot-on. Hugs :)

Hi, Mothbrad. Excellent examples. And, sadly, you could go on….and on….and on. It’s a shame there are so many examples out there. Wonderful point, as well, on fantasy vs. D/s relationships.

Hello, my king – all I have to say to your post is: indeed. :) Love you.

Hi, baby girl. Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread. It is appreciated! I was wondering: if things should get out of hand at any point (which I REALLY hope doesn’t happen since I, too, am enjoying this discussion & wish for it to continue in a civil and adult manner) – you might be able to delete any flaming posts rather than shutting down the thread? It’s exceedingly interesting to see so many points of view with such great communication on topics of this nature & I’d hate to see it stop over something like that. Anyhoo – thanks again & keep up the good work!

Hi, NatalieD – excellent question! As to your second question…my opinion would be a simple “doubtful.” :)

Hugs & Spankins!
SS

[Warbaby1943]

Great post Stone'sSlut. I like your suggestion for baby girl, I hope she heeds it. I hope she thinks it is good too. It would be a shame to lock such an interesting thread.

[nk_lion]

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't.

[Mothbrad]

Great post, Stone'sSlut - very thoughtful reading for a Sunday morning :)

On a similar thread, a newspaper I read this morning had a light hearted article by a woman about things that men don't know about women (a common topic for light hearted articles). Anyhow, one of the points was that women who are in control out of the bedroom like to be submissive in the bedroom, and vice versa. Although it's a gross generalisation (and one that, as a man, I won't add any more comment on), it's an interesting thing to consider in the context of this discussion.

[cheeseburger]

For example, I see neither of us convincing the other of our position on this topic and so think that it’s probably a waste of time for either of us to continue down this path. Agreed? Great! Sure.

If you're too busy ridiculing urbandictionary.com and myself, listen to nk_8950:

I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory
Basically, he's saying (and I tried to say) you appear contradictory.

For me, the simplest explanation holds. For everyone else, it doesn't. Fine by me.

And a little off topic, but words like 'hyopcrite,' and 'stupid' aren't really insults, IMO. It's just a very direct way of saying what you think. Only example I can think of is medicine, where I actually heard someone say "charlie brown hit the lateral aspect of the occiput." Bleeding jesus, just say they guy hit the side of his head. Lateral aspect my ass.

/end rant.

[Stone]

well the urbandictonary is stupid its like when they tried to make ebonics acceptible in the schools which is basically telling a whole group of people you are too stupid to learn how to read and write english properly.Thats insulting and obserd.

maybe posting someones entire post instead of 9/10's of it .would be a good idea as well

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't


Wow did you carefully read this post at all or are you just taking bits and pieces of it to suit your case?

So i guess i can say you appear like someone with a bone to pick and no real knowlage or understanding.

by the way saying you lack knowlage or understanding is not an insult cause i say so and i even looked it up on urbandictionary

[cheeseburger]

well the urbandictonary is stupid its like when they tried to make ebonics acceptible in the schools which is basically telling a whole group of people you are too stupid to learn how to read and write english properly.Thats insulting and obserd.

maybe posting someones entire post instead of 9/10's of it .would be a good idea as well

Thx for starting this thread.
I'm at a confused point in life where I like seemingly contradictory things (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). I guess my background makes these two contradictory, whereas you've proved in your case that it isn't


Wow did you carefully read this post at all or are you just taking bits and pieces of it to suit your case?

So i guess i can say you appear like someone with a bone to pick and no real knowlage or understanding.

by the way saying you lack knowlage or understanding is not an insult cause i say so and i even looked it up on urbandictionary

Let's settle the urbandictionary.com thing once and for all. It defines slang words which are not in conventional dictionaries. Because it's created by anonymous users, 99% if it is bs.

See, I even quoted your entire post! I got a little lost halfway through, but no biggy.

[~hellish one~]

oh for the love of god!! you guys are adults! ACT LIKE IT! stop picking on each other! you should be worrying more about getting this thread back on topic. if i see one more off topic post that is designed to do nothing more than piss someone else off, i will lock this thread and report you to the Admin!

do not ruin a good thread with your petty bickering.

thank you.
bg

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hi, again, Warbaby! Thank you :) Looks like we’re in the good, so far. Let’s hope it stay on topic & civil. Hugs!

Hi, nk_8950! Thanks for posting. I’ll say you’re welcome, though I think at least part of the credit should go to cadence (for asking the question that started it all) & cariad (for moving it here). I think that many of us struggle with defining what being a strong woman means and what having a D/s relationship with a very strong woman entails. Much of my own background and education seemed to set (my perceptions of) feminism & D/s at odds – so I understand your position. It was only through painstaking growth in my understanding of both through further research and experience that I was able to discern the compatibility of my beliefs and lifestyle without compromising either. As several people have mentioned – the agreements you and a partner would come to as far as your boundaries, in which parts of your life together she shall submit, etc. may help in clarifying how your partner may live an independent life in the world while being submissive in your relationship. That’s really what it comes down to, IMO – agreements and choices between the two of you about the exchange of power. I wish you good luck in finding everything you wish for.

Hello, again, Mothbrad. Thank you – both for your praise & the info on the article. Very interesting, indeed. Even gross generalizations, I suppose, can hit the side of a barn now and then ;)

Hello, again, cheeseburger. I don’t see anything ridiculing urbandictionary.com in my post – I just defined it more tactfully & completely than simply stating that it’s “B.S.” As to ridiculing you – LMAO! Hun - you started this whole dialogue by tossing out rather derogatory statements, continued it by “ranting” (your word, not mine), & now claim to be the victim of ridicule? Honestly, nothing I posted was meant as an attack on you personally. I just find that with your disclaimers of “no flame wars” & “academic observations” aside, just about everything you’ve posted appears to have a tone of derision & condescension. Coupled with a very selective reading of others’ posts & an almost wholesale disregard to the questions posed & points made against your arguments/attacks in my & others’ responses - I don’t know how you expected people to react to your “slap & run” posts. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings by using facts to dispute your opinions. I do apologize.

Moving on….Without presuming to speak for nk_8950, my read of his post was not that I appear contradictory, but rather that his background made these two things contradictory for him. Reading his quote in its entirety, I believe he also mentions that I have “proved in [my] case that it isn’t.” Fascinating place to tourniquet the quote….

Interesting - for me, when it comes to the complexity of human beings, their lives, & the further complications of beliefs & philosophies, the simplest explanation doesn’t always apply. It’s wonderful how the world is made up of so many different perspectives!

Knowing little about you, I cannot speak to why you might think that terms like hypocrite & stupid aren’t insulting – particularly the manner in which they have been used here. Nor can I think of any context in which using those “direct” terms wouldn’t appear to be an insult. Perhaps this is yet another thing we should just agree to disagree on…

P.S. Kudos on posting a whole quote.

MasterStone: :) Maybe it makes me a little twisted, but I didn’t get lost. Sarcasm aside, thanks for making that point.

Now, All – back to feminism & BDSM?

Hugs & Spankins
SS

[Stone]

BDSM and feminism can exists together and do in our lives aswell as many others. The problems start when you start listening to the extreme feminists the femanazis they tend to be the in your face crowd that if you dont believe what they believe you are wrong and a sexist. Its all about what you precieve as feminism if you are with the extreme crowd then of course there is no way a woman can be a sub to a man, But if you believe what the real feminists believe i.e. equal pay for equal work equal rights ect, feminism and D/S can co exist very well. One last thing about the in your face crowd they never seem to let the facts get in their way to prove their point no matter how much the facts are opposed to them.

[~hellish one~]

BDSM and feminism can exists together and do in our lives aswell as many others. The problems start when you start listening to the extreme feminists the femanazis they tend to be the in your face crowd that if you dont believe what they believe you are wrong and a sexist. Its all about what you precieve as feminism if you are with the extreme crowd then of course there is no way a woman can be a sub to a man, But if you believe what the real feminists believe i.e. equal pay for equal work equal rights ect, feminism and D/S can co exist very well. One last thing about the in your face crowd they never seem to let the facts get in their way to prove their point no matter how much the facts are opposed to them.

very well stated. and i agree wholeheartedly. i'm all for equal rights - equal pay..etc. but sometimes...i think extreme feminists actually try to prove that women are better than men in some way. and that is crap of course. women and men are equal. and i can be a submissive and still believe in equal rights for women. i am not submissive to every man in the world...~grins~ just the one.

[gloombunny]

but sometimes...i think extreme feminists actually try to prove that women are better than men in some way. and that is crap of course.
Extremists can take damn near any idea and run it into the ground. I bet if I went around saying that ice cream is a tasty treat on a hot summer day, sooner or later I'd find someone criticizing me for not going far enough and calling me a tool of the ice-cream-hating establishment.

[anonymouse]

Equality is a strange beast. In the context of gender politics, a lot of people seem to think equality means 'sameness'. This narrow definition ignores the concept of fairness, which is what I believe was the original intent of feminism -- that people shouldn't think it's unreasonable for a woman to earn the same (or more) as a man or have the same job opportunities.

Once the notion of sameness entered the argument, it became akin to saying all shoes should be pairs of left ones. This is patently absurd, as even a child will tell you.

For me, equality is about compatibility and the freedom to choose the level of balance within any relationship, whether a personal one, a social one, or a business/professional one.

"This isn't the end of civilization as we know it. This IS civilization as we know it." -- Germaine Greer

anonymouse

[gloombunny]

Equality is a strange beast. In the context of gender politics, a lot of people seem to think equality means 'sameness'.
When you're talking about people in the aggregate? It does. If people are treated differently depending on their gender, then you don't have equality.

This has nothing to do with how any one individual is to be treated, of course.

[nk_lion]

Sure.

If you're too busy ridiculing urbandictionary.com and myself, listen to nk_8950:

Basically, he's saying (and I tried to say) you appear contradictory.




Sry, I think I may have not been clear when I said that the two may be contradictory (a strong and independent woman, and a relationship with a of and on sub). Stoneslut got it right. It is merely a cultural issue. I don't follow this mindset, but being exposed to it since birth, I have preconceived notions about the world. Women from my cultural background have been oppressed, and unfortunatly are still being oppressed. There are some that break free from the oppression and live their lifes' they choose. These women usually are the no nonsense women who want control in everything (I'm generalising and could possibly be wrong), and just don't seem the submissive type especially due to the fact that they have broken the submissive mold set for them (not the submissive as in lifestyle choice, but more of forced oppression).

Like I said before, this was one topic that has been really great for me because it addresses exactly what I've been thinking for a while if feministic type women can be subs or switches.

Oh and thx Cariad for moving this post to a place that everyone can see and Cadence for asking this question.

[Stone]

I agree with most of what everyone is saying.Its allways the extreme crowd on both sides the muddy the water and there is nothing you can do to change their minds because no matter what you do or say you are wrong.Men and women can be and are equal in the eyes of the law but socally its lagging behind one day it will be true we are close but not there yet. The one last thing i will add to this men and women are equal but diffent ones strenghts balances out the others weakness the ying and yang, together we are at our strongest apart at our weakest.

[gloombunny]

The one last thing i will add to this men and women are equal but diffent ones strenghts balances out the others weakness the ying and yang, together we are at our strongest apart at our weakest.
As long as you acknowledge that the differences are on-average tendencies and not universal traits, and don't look down on people who don't follow the tendencies, then ok...

[Stone]

I agree not even men are equal with each other in all ways so yes its a generalzation on my part and i generally only look down apon the ignorant its one thing to not be "smart" which is ok its the ignorant that drive me nuts,the people who talk out their ass and blow smoke up yours.

[Warbaby1943]

the people who talk out their ass and blow smoke up yours.
I like and agree with that statement.

[STONE'sSLUT]

As long as you acknowledge that the differences are on-average tendencies and not universal traits, and don't look down on people who don't follow the tendencies, then ok...
excellent point.


Warbaby - Me too :D

[Arria]

I have not even read through the whole thread, but I already love it.

Some women (most self-proclaimed "feminists" I met, really) believe that feminism stands for "hating men and not sleeping with a man; if you are sleeping with a man, hating the act of penetration, and shove that fact into his face at all times (another way of doing this is letting the guy beg for sex and show at all times that you could so easily do without it, etc.)".

That sort of woman caused the highest difficulty in me when I came around to admitting (first to myself and then to others) I really am a sub and want to be used sexually.
They treated me like a traitor and a bad person, just because I happen to like sleeping with a man, and because I happen to like it rough. Big deal!

Thank you, bitches. I am sick and tired of you.
You are not "feminists"; you just are full of fear.
Fear that disguises itself as hatred, as hatred is so much more comfortable to feel than fear is.
I was brave enough to face myself... and I get my desires satisfied in a way that none of you is likely to experience for the rest of your miserable lives.

End of rant. Thanks for listening so far.

[TheVariableX]

I enjoyed reading your post Stones'sSlut.

I found your story about saving, and improving, your marriage through soul deep honestly quite moving. There is something powerful about honesty. I don't really see the point of staying in a relationship without it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

My mom is a feminist. She's one of the man-haters. *nods a lot* On bring your child to work day, a very elderly man politely asked my mom where to find something in the store. His mistake was calling her "hon" in the process. My mom almost snapped his head off, saying "I'm NOT your hon...my name is Susan...and it's on ailse whatever." He probably couldn't have read her name tag unless his face was pressed against her breast, if he could read at all. I wonder how well that would've gone over? *ggls* She has always talked to her husband in a condescending manner. She attends a Christian church regularly but totally rejects the patriarchal teachings inherent in the Bible, saying "What Paul said isn't doctrine." Um..okay...if you say so....*shrugs* She looks at me sometimes as if I'm some kind of alien and has even asked, "Are you MY child?!?" hahahahahahahaha I'm all for equal pay for equal work, equal opportunities, etc. I'm not for so-called affirmative action and lowering standards so women can join the military, medical school, etc. If you can't perform at the same level as a man, too bad so sad! Feminists can be just as sexist as men. They'll foam at the mouth when talking about how oppressed women are, how everyone is out to get them and keep them down, how it's all men's fault because women are never wrong and just victims, that girls shouldn't play with dolls or learn how to cook, etc., when they haven't a clue what true oppression is. I haven't noticed any such oppression. I can apply for any job I'm qualified to have, attend any college provided my scores are acceptable, can have my own checking and savings, own property, vote, marry and divorce whomever, etc. If you want to see true oppression, visit Afghanistan where the police won't intervene in domestic violence because a wife is the literal and actual physical property of her husband, where a woman can't hold certain jobs or go to school and where a woman can't even beg but must send her son out to beg if she's poor. I kinda forgot where I was going with this...except my friends all look at me like I'm the worst kind of scum (maybe that's putting it strongly) because I have a D/s relationship where I'm not the dominant one. They can't fathom that I would choose to submit willingly and do what he says...that this is what I want...and I'm happy. My best friend said it's not healthy. hahahahahahahaha Um..okay...whatever...but while she and her husband are constantly arguing about everything because they both want control, my man and I can enjoy a nice evening out without arguing about where we're going to eat.

[Isabelle90]

Some women (most self-proclaimed "feminists" I met, really) believe that feminism stands for "hating men and not sleeping with a man; if you are sleeping with a man, hating the act of penetration, and shove that fact into his face at all times (another way of doing this is letting the guy beg for sex and show at all times that you could so easily do without it, etc.)".

That sort of woman caused the highest difficulty in me when I came around to admitting (first to myself and then to others) I really am a sub and want to be used sexually.
They treated me like a traitor and a bad person, just because I happen to like sleeping with a man, and because I happen to like it rough. Big deal!

Thank you, bitches. I am sick and tired of you.
You are not "feminists"; you just are full of fear.
Fear that disguises itself as hatred, as hatred is so much more comfortable to feel than fear is.
I was brave enough to face myself... and I get my desires satisfied in a way that none of you is likely to experience for the rest of your miserable lives.


Once again Arria, I love your wise words!

This has been hard for me to reconcile within myself, much less profess to others for the reasons you stated. I've been taught that female submission is wrong.

I'm working on the bravery. But I know about being miserable versus being satisfied. Trying to act in charge made me miserable. Being submissive is rewarding. (Still working on my understanding of this one too!)


My mom is a feminist. She's one of the man-haters. *nods a lot*
...
She looks at me sometimes as if I'm some kind of alien and has even asked, "Are you MY child?!?"
...
My best friend said it's not healthy. hahahahahahahaha Um..okay...whatever...but while she and her husband are constantly arguing about everything because they both want control, my man and I can enjoy a nice evening out without arguing about where we're going to eat.

We may have the same mother! (You have red hair....my mom had red hair.....hmmmmmmm?)

My parents have been divorced for almost 10 years. Mom has had a "friend" for about 6 of those. She refuses to sleep with him. Literally! She won't even sleep in the same bed as the poor guy. She is constantly getting on to him about this or that, exactly the way she treated my dad. (Some people never learn.) She is utterly miserable!

I used to be the person in the car arguing about where we were going to eat. Me, me, me, me, me! If a suggestion was made, it was the wrong one. My, how just a little bit of submission would have made everyone happier!

Thank you SS for this thread!

P.S. The picture of you and your master is just lovely!