Is It A Conscious Decision?

[Warbaby1943]

OK at the risk of getting bombarded again I want to post a question or maybe questions depending on how you look at this thread.

I have been told that submissives will make mistakes and they can’t help making them. This I have no problem believing, everyone makes mistakes. With these mistakes that have been made they know there will be a punishment to follow; sometimes it is a severe punishment in my estimation.

I have also been told that you can’t be analytical in your thinking when it comes to affairs relating to D/s and specifically to tasks assigned to a submissive when they decide to not follow the rules of that task.

I’ve been told that when you are asked to get to the edge every hour for 12 hours you can’t help but disobey, I took it to mean she had no choice but to disobey an order to not cum. I really don’t know what else the statement could have meant, but again, I could be wrong in my assumption.

Now here is where my question comes in and it is only a question and in no way meant to be suggesting or implying any derogatory comment against anyone who makes these “mistakes.” Maybe I need a little more explanation before I ask the question.

I guess with my background and no real experience at being a submissive, I find it very difficult to believe that any subject can’t be analyzed and thought through to some type of conclusion. I also think that if a sub continually is punished for breaking the rules set down by their Top then they may, at least subconsciously, enjoy being punished though they profess vehemently this is not the case. I know I have already been told I’m crazy (maybe not in so many words but still crazy) to believe this but it is my opinion.

I am not saying that being in the same situation as some of these subs were in when a rule was broken that I would not have done the same thing. Hell I probably would not have lasted any where near as long as many of them did before they broke the rule that brought them punishment.

All this being said, what my believe is, is that at the point of breaking the rule I say the sub has still made a conscious decision to go for the instant gratification and also at that same point made a conscious decision to suffer whatever the punishment may be, knowing full well there will be punishment.

I am told it is the worst feeling in the world to let your Dom/Domme down or disappoint them. So in my way of thinking, since I believe everything can and is analyzed, why are the rules broken? I’m only looking for an explanation I can understand and that does not require me to think it all is based on instant gratification even knowing and understanding how overpowering those feelings can be. If you really want to obey your Dom/Domme I believe it is possible, at least most of the time, to do so.

You may believe you are learning by your mistakes and maybe I’ll buy that but why is it so difficult to obey if you really want to? Does anyone truly believe it is not a conscious decision to break the rule? Am I missing the influence of “sub space” here, which I admit I totally do not have any comprehension of but thought that the sub had to be with their Top for this to occur? That was never even suggested but I am trying to figure this out and want to give all benefit of doubt to the sub and why they broke the rule set down for them.

I don’t want to get into an argument over this so I may just sit back a read the responses without replying but know I am reading them and trying to learn from this thread.

Please don’t think I am being condescending. I am not in the least.

[frankee]

I have also been told that you can’t be analytical in your thinking when it comes to affairs relating to D/s and specifically to tasks assigned to a submissive when they decide to not follow the rules of that task.

I’ve been told that when you are asked to get to the edge every hour for 12 hours you can’t help but disobey, I took it to mean she had no choice but to disobey an order to not cum. I really don’t know what else the statement could have meant, but again, I could be wrong in my assumption.

Now here is where my question comes in and it is only a question and in no way meant to be suggesting or implying any derogatory comment against anyone who makes these “mistakes.” Maybe I need a little more explanation before I ask the question.

I guess with my background and no real experience at being a submissive, I find it very difficult to believe that any subject can’t be analyzed and thought through to some type of conclusion. I also think that if a sub continually is punished for breaking the rules set down by their Top then they may, at least subconsciously, enjoy being punished though they profess vehemently this is not the case. I know I have already been told I’m crazy (maybe not in so many words but still crazy) to believe this but it is my opinion.

I am not saying that being in the same situation as some of these subs were in when a rule was broken that I would not have done the same thing. Hell I probably would not have lasted any where near as long as many of them did before they broke the rule that brought them punishment.

All this being said, what my believe is, is that at the point of breaking the rule I say the sub has still made a conscious decision to go for the instant gratification and also at that same point made a conscious decision to suffer whatever the punishment may be, knowing full well there will be punishment.

I am told it is the worst feeling in the world to let your Dom/Domme down or disappoint them. So in my way of thinking, since I believe everything can and is analyzed, why are the rules broken? I’m only looking for an explanation I can understand and that does not require me to think it all is based on instant gratification even knowing and understanding how overpowering those feelings can be. If you really want to obey your Dom/Domme I believe it is possible, at least most of the time, to do so.

You may believe you are learning by your mistakes and maybe I’ll buy that but why is it so difficult to obey if you really want to? Does anyone truly believe it is not a conscious decision to break the rule? Am I missing the influence of “sub space” here, which I admit I totally do not have any comprehension of but thought that the sub had to be with their Top for this to occur? That was never even suggested but I am trying to figure this out and want to give all benefit of doubt to the sub and why they broke the rule set down for them.

I don’t want to get into an argument over this so I may just sit back a read the responses without replying but know I am reading them and trying to learn from this thread.

Please don’t think I am being condescending. I am not in the least.

*sigh*

*gets out the big ass Dom paddle and looks at you*

OK...PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME!! LOL

FIRST...its not just an hourly tease for 12 hours. It's an hourly tease for days and days sometimes even weeks. This takes a toll on your emotional state.


YES, we know the consequences for our actions and YES we know that a punishment is headed our way. BUT...this DOES NOT MEAN, we deliberately set out to break the rules. This thought DOES NOT cross our minds when a task is given to us.

Keep in mind...the 'breaking of the rules' does not happen one after a couple of times of doing a particular task. It happens after a long period of time (in most cases)

It's not a premeditated act.

SOMETIMES, its just happens!!

Maybe, it's too hard for a Dom/me to understand, especially if you they have not experienced 'being submissive'.

*shows you the big ass Dom paddle again*

[cadence]

I wonder when a Dom/me says that they will use floggers, and other devices on themselves before they use it on their subs, do you think they try giving edges as well?
If they do, do they do it longer than one day?
I am not being bitter about it, but like frankee says, it does take a toll on your emotional state.

Put me in a state of constant arousal for even a day with no relief and I turn into a raging woman with PMS, who had to give up chocolate and quit smoking after a two pack a day habit.
I am frustrated, cranky and irritable. It was the one thing I complained about the most.
When I had an online Dom, I did not set out to defy the rules, I was honest and always did what was required of me.
However instant gratification, was a far stronger need, even when I knew that I would recieve a punishment.
I could have lied, but that would have defeated the purpose of everything.
I did what I did and accepted punishment for it. Even when he was dissapointed over and over. I always felt bad, but never enough to do it again.
Don't get me wrong, I honestly did try and never initially set out to defy him everytime.
Yes I slipped up the majority of the time, but most times were not intentional.
I can honestly say that when I did intentionally defy the rule, I did make a concerted effort to do better the next time.

So it is not like we are breaking rules just because, some of us just slip and some of us cannot control the need for gratification.

being new to the whole submissive thing as well, I may come across as nonchalant about the whole thing, and hopefully someone will be able to understand and clarify my point, because I am rambling on, and can't come up with what I really want to say.

[J's blu]

ok, i will throw some words into the mix, and see what comes out.

i am with an online Master, but have been His for 4 years now. i know that is no excuse for not obeying whatever He has set me to do, and mostly it is not a problem. BUT, sometimes He doesnt realise just how hard things get, or if something else has added an emotional twist, and i cant contact Him to let Him know.

i just know, that sometimes as i am doing something for Him, if i could hear His voice, or just see His eyes upon me, it would help me complete that task.

also, sometimes things are asked that the Top/Dom/me may think are going to be, well, not easy, but not such a difficult stretch ,- such as bringing yourself to the edge again and again over an extended period of time - can become VERY difficult for a sub/slave person who is on their own, especially if they have not been used to doing this for long.

and i will probably get howled down for saying this, but- isnt one of the strongest desires a sub has for control? i know that it is mental control much more than physical, but again, sometimes the mental just over rides the physical and your body just DOES IT. it depends how far you have been pushed and lets face it, thats what these long term tasks are meant to do. push you. so, to my way of thinking, at times, ESPECIALLY in relationships that are not flesh to flesh ( i do not like the term real life, for me online is REAL life, what i do for Him is real!) your brain just goes - bugger it, i cant do this anymore, i will just have to take what is comming- where as if you are
f-2-f you can say, this is becoming very difficult for me, and the Dom/me can use that voice that just helps you get through, or the look that puts you in meltdown, whatever it is between the two of Y/you.

i just think that for long distance relationships, tasks have to be especially considered, and sometimes, reconsidered if they seem to be concluding in punishment too often.

respectfully blu

[fantassy]

I have also been told that you can’t be analytical in your thinking when it comes to affairs relating to D/s and specifically to tasks assigned to a submissive when they decide to not follow the rules of that task.

I’ve been told that when you are asked to get to the edge every hour for 12 hours you can’t help but disobey, I took it to mean she had no choice but to disobey an order to not cum.

I also think that if a sub continually is punished for breaking the rules set down by their Top then they may, at least subconsciously, enjoy being punished though they profess vehemently this is not the case.

All this being said, what my believe is, is that at the point of breaking the rule I say the sub has still made a conscious decision to go for the instant gratification and also at that same point made a conscious decision to suffer whatever the punishment may be, knowing full well there will be punishment.

I am told it is the worst feeling in the world to let your Dom/Domme down or disappoint them. So in my way of thinking, since I believe everything can and is analyzed, why are the rules broken? I’m only looking for an explanation I can understand and that does not require me to think it all is based on instant gratification even knowing and understanding how overpowering those feelings can be. If you really want to obey your Dom/Domme I believe it is possible, at least most of the time, to do so.


okay, I know this response will likely make me very unpopular. I am only speaking from my own perspective, and I acknowledge that I am not a typical sub and am more analytical than 90% of the population. However, I disagree with what you have been told Warbaby, and I do believe that many subs are at least subconsciously "choosing" to disobey.

In my own case, the relatively few times I have ever disobeyed, it was a conscious decision. Usually, that was an indication that Brosco and I needed to talk about what He was trying to achieve with the task and why I chose to disobey, so that He/we could then decide whether the task should be eliminated permanently, postponed until I was ready for it, or continued. That being said, I freely admit that Brosco and I have a D/S relationship with far more limited parameters than most others. He is not interested in controlling all aspects of my life. We aren't into punishment. We aren't into humiliation. He doesn't want me doing things to please him which totally turn me off and cause me to merely grit my teeth and bear it. However, His one area of focus is controlling my sexual pleasure - totally. So that is one area I can speak about from experience. I have a LOT of experience edging, being denied, cumming ONLY when allowed and playing ONLY when given permission. I have spent many hours on edge and have gone weeks without cumming. And I can honestly say that is the one area in which I have never disobeyed. Soo, at least for me, it never "just happens."

I have two theories as to why my opinion is so different from all the other subs who have disagreed with you Warbaby.
1.) only a very limited part of my day is controlled by Brosco - so I am not constantly being pushed to the brink of failure in order to prove my submission. Other Doms/subs are striving for a much wider amount of control, so the subs are pushed more to obey without question, which in my opinion, causes their subconscious minds to sometimes rebel.
2.) since Brosco isn't into punishment, he is probably more careful to assign tasks which won't cause me to fail. In addition, I get no thrill from being punished. I am an over-achiever by nature and get a high from overcoming a challenge. I agree with you Warbaby, that some subs enjoy the feeling of being controlled which is achieved when they are punished. Thus, even though they don't consciously want to disappointed their Doms, subconsciously they are choosing a double reward when they disobey of 1) immediate gratification and 2) feeling their Dom's total control over them while they are being punished. (and some get a third reward of feeling humiliated when being punished).
3.) I am a person with a lot of self-control in most areas of my life. One of the things which attracts me to D/S is the pleasure of relinquishing that control in one area of my life - it is sooo utterly relaxing for me. In contrast, many subs comment that they are attracted to D/S because they have been lacking self-discipline and need the external control of the Dom in their lives. Thus I am merely turning over control of my self to Brosco; whereas, some other subs have to first develop control over themselves so that they can then give that control to their Doms. That is a much harder task, and is likely to result in more failures. For these subs, I think it is not so much that they decided to disobey, as it is they haven't yet developed enough self-control.

There you have it - my analysis and theories of sub "failure." Please understand my theories of other subs' motivations are my theories only, but I hope you don't mind my sharing them, as analyzing/theorizing about people and their motivations is one of my favorite things to do. One thing I want to emphasize is that I don't see subs who disobey/fail in their tasks as being "bad" subs. Most are far better (more submissive) than I. However, there is something to be learned from analyzing our failures, so it is a valid inquiry to make rather than saying subs aren't perfect and failure "just happens". Of course each individual's motivations are different, so these are only a few possibilities.

fantassy

[DrkRvn]

There have been a few times I have chosen to disobey. Generally it has been when i am getting frustrated with either my Lord's lack of direction or lack of action. It might partially be because He is still trying to figure out how to fit it all into our life, but I do get frustrated when He says He will punish me later for something and never really does. and then when a week goes by and i have accidently done things wrong and He still hasn't punished me for any of them, i have on occation acted out purposely to get Him to pay some Masterly attention to me.We both agreed a D/s relationship was something we wanted to explore in a more 24/7 fashion, but its still alot off trial adn error to get there, and He just gets busy with other things and forgets sometimes.

But it is very hard to break habits or mannerisms for a long term task, I have bitten my nails all my life, my Lord wants me to stop. I go about two or three weeks before i somehow enivitable fail adn accidently bite one while I am frustrated or not thinking. Its getting easier each time but it is very frustrating. He also made me go 72 hours wiht out biting him in any way even just saying bite adn that took almost a whole week, and a tantrum where I bit him excessively because I was less than 12 hours away and half asleep adn bit him and had to start over. Even when you are trying very hard not to do something if its somethign your body is used to it slips up at times.

[Guest 91108]

hrm.. jut general type comments and observations.

i have read many articles about the edge and CR and many other similiar tasks and punishments.
I've heard subs in chat talk being proud they last for xyz time frames, while others can't figure out how to get past couple hours.....

Being an Atypical Dom ( as in the rest of my life is Atypical as well ) I find it rather odd that someone would keep pushing for a goal that they know the individual will fail to reach. Especially day after day , week after week on and on ad nauseum... kind of thing.
I base that on an experiences with someone.
If the Person is unable to comply ... no amount of Submissiveness is probably going to correct some flaws or faults or however one wishes to say it. Many will go off and be all full of ego and say "but i can do........." or " they will DO that........." it's only because they wish to . * notice the period*
And if they do not wish to comply.. there is good reasons like a prior post.. the reasoning may be off or misunderstood or even meaningless.
Subbies aren't mindless automatons as much as some Doms might wish they were lmao.

[pancakepopple]

Well, personally, I haven't ever failed at a task before. Warbaby1943, I think you're right. Any sub that fails a task knowingly definitely deserves that punishment. Failure is just not an option. A task is set by a Dom and a perfect, well behaved, well trained sub will carry that task out no matter the issues involved. I have teased myself before for endless days and months before gaining relief. I am obedient enough not to orgasm before my most special Master allows me.

[lily27]

I think it depends entirely on the situation.

There have been times I have acted out on purpose. I am the type of person that if you tell me "don't touch this... it's hot" I am going to touch it just to see how hot it really is. I almost always have to experience things first hand before they are truly engrained. I will test my boundaries, just to make sure they are truly there. Once I have determined that yes, that rule still does apply, I can go back to feeling safe and secure.

If we are talking about disobeying during edging specifically, I think this is also a very personal experience that is nearly impossible to compare. Say the task is to stop before going over the edge... on a scale of 1 to 10, where does this lie? 9? 9.5? 9.9? 9.9999999?? Different people might be going to different "edges".... each progressively more difficult to pull back from. And impossible to compare. At 9, you may still be in control.... at 9.9999999 your body starts to take over.

I know for myself, right before I cum I become almost incoherant. Rational thought is gone, and I will agree to nearly anything just to get what I want. There have been times I have broke down and sobbed when told "not yet." In that state, there is no "conscious" disobedience... there isn't any conscious anything.

So there is my addition to the confusion. You're welcome.

[submissive sugar]

I agree with lily. It really depends on the person and the situation. Talking about going to the edge and withholding ... The person I'm with would really have to know my body and me well enough to know what they are doing because I also like lily at some point become completly incoherant. In one of the two real life experiences I've had the Dom I was with kept taking me to the edge and back so many times that by the time He actually let me let go ... I came 18 times over a 5 hour period of time and don't remember anything that was said or done to me ... just that I was in a constant state of orgasm. There are tidbits here and there where I know he was reassuring me and making sure I was ok ... but other than that ... pfft beats me, I just know it was fun as hell.

I don't think that all submissives conciously disobey but I believe it happends because some have a hard time communicating so when they disobey they know they will be punished and it will most likely be discussed. I tend to be this way but it's also why I seek a Daddy/little girl relationship vs. a Master/slave relationship.

[frankee]

That's it!!

Each subbie is different!!!

For some, it may take being punished once...for others it could take a lot longer.

When we are given a task, we set out to complete the task without failure.
We do not have the attitude in the back of our minds, 'well if it's too hard, screw Him/Her and i'll just do what i want'. THAT IS NOT an attitude that most subbies have!

NOW...this brings me to this...if you, as a subbie do not make 'so called deliberate mistakes' or if you are a Dom/me and have collared a 'so called perfect subbie', well then...what the hell is the purpose of any kind of friggin training???

OH and one more thing....You Dommly ones, try CR for 4 or 5 weeks, constantly being aroused and told to play with yourself, BUT DON'T CUM!! Try it and see what happens to your state of mind. i was on CR for a few days and i thought i was going to lose my fucking mind!!

Ok, there...my rant is over! Gotta find me some chocolate before i burn the damn place down!

[lily27]

Well, personally, I haven't ever failed at a task before. Warbaby1943, I think you're right. Any sub that fails a task knowingly definitely deserves that punishment. Failure is just not an option. A task is set by a Dom and a perfect, well behaved, well trained sub will carry that task out no matter the issues involved. I have teased myself before for endless days and months before gaining relief. I am obedient enough not to orgasm before my most special Master allows me.

Well, pancakepopple, you are truly a better person than me. I am certainly far from perfect.

I'm sorry... but isn't one of the main things we do here bondage & discipline?? If you don't screw up, and are never punished, where is the learning? Where is the training?

Generally, when you start in a relationship things are kept light and fun in order to build trust, connections, and confidence. Over time, training becomes more intense... expectations are raised... and things get harder.

When tasks are things like bedtime, don't play without permission, don't wear panties... then yes, going against this will require a conscious decision. But when it is instead behaviour modification, we are in a whole different ballgame of psychology and previous conditioning.

Say you spent your entire life eating with your elbows on the table. Today, I determine that is no longer allowed. The first time you mess up, I will gently remind you. But as you are trying to break on old habit, you soon have your elbows on the table again. This time I may give you a moment to see if you realize on your own.... and if you don't correct yourself I will slap your wrists. As things progress, the corrections will get harsher, and quicker. That is the process that will lead to a change in behavioural conditioning, over time.

At no time do you consciously think "screw this, I am putting my elbows on the table".... but you just revert back to old behaviour until it is completely trained out of you.

Warbaby, I understand your confusion. But this is a complicated topic... and any attempt at an easy answer is glossing over an infinite number of variables.

[submissive sugar]

That's it!!

Each subbie is different!!!

For some, it may take being punished once...for others it could take a lot longer.

When we are given a task, we set out to complete the task without failure.
We do not have the attitude in the back of our minds, 'well if it's too hard, screw Him/Her and i'll just do what i want'. THAT IS NOT an attitude that most subbies have!

NOW...this brings me to this...if you, as a subbie do not make 'so called deliberate mistakes' or if you are a Dom/me and have collared a 'so called perfect subbie', well then...what the hell is the purpose of any kind of friggin training???

OH and one more thing....You Dommly ones, try CR for 4 or 5 weeks, constantly being aroused and told to play with yourself, BUT DON'T CUM!! Try it and see what happens to your state of mind. i was on CR for a few days and i thought i was going to lose my fucking mind!!

Ok, there...my rant is over! Gotta find me some chocolate before i burn the damn place down!

The Dom I was speaking of did this once WITH me as we started out online and were a long distance relationship it played a big part in the sexual aspect of our relationship ... Everyday we would get online and he would tease me and me being the flirty (sometimes bratty) girl that I am would tease back ... this went on for a couple of hours everyday for two weeks. It was agonizing ... many a time I THOUGHT to myself screw this I'm getting my vibrator out *laughs* but never did it. Anyways, during this time we would be on cam and what not. He was always erect and very aroused as I was and I just assumed that after we said our goodbyes that He went and relieved himself, thinking that He was trying to be supportive knowing I was having such a hard time. Boy was I wrong. At the end of the two weeks when He came for one of his monthly visits I was allowed to cum and He did too after some playtime. He THEN told me that He had been withholding the whole time too because He wanted to go through the experience with me. To this day even though this Dom and I are no longer together, we are great friends and I hold him in the highest regard.

*laughs* I'm sorry this was totally off topic, but your comment totally made me think of that.

Back on topic ... Yes Lily that's EXACTLY my thinking ... certain things it would have to be a concious thought to disobey but others like you said ... behavior modification .... well that just takes time and training and hopefully a Dom who's pretty understanding.

[frankee]

The Dom I was speaking of did this once WITH me as we started out online and were a long distance relationship it played a big part in the sexual aspect of our relationship ... Everyday we would get online and he would tease me and me being the flirty (sometimes bratty) girl that I am would tease back ... this went on for a couple of hours everyday for two weeks. It was agonizing ... many a time I THOUGHT to myself screw this I'm getting my vibrator out *laughs* but never did it. Anyways, during this time we would be on cam and what not. He was always erect and very aroused as I was and I just assumed that after we said our goodbyes that He went and relieved himself, thinking that He was trying to be supportive knowing I was having such a hard time. Boy was I wrong. At the end of the two weeks when He came for one of his monthly visits I was allowed to cum and He did too after some playtime. He THEN told me that He had been withholding the whole time too because He wanted to go through the experience with me. To this day even though this Dom and I are no longer together, we are great friends and I hold him in the highest regard.

*laughs* I'm sorry this was totally off topic, but your comment totally made me think of that.

Back on topic ... Yes Lily that's EXACTLY my thinking ... certain things it would have to be a concious thought to disobey but others like you said ... behavior modification .... well that just takes time and training and hopefully a Dom who's pretty understanding.


WOW! That's pretty awesome ss!! *smiles*

[submissive sugar]

Yeah to this day I have to say it is probably one of my best sexual experiences because we both had so much pent up arousal. *laughs* I practically attacked him when he walked in my door ... got a tad bit (ok a big) spanking for being too pushy *laughss*

[Warbaby1943]

As I mentioned I am reading every word and there are many interesting comments. Thanks to all.

[Aussiegirl1]

First of all I want to say that there are some fantastic posts here!

As someone who is still very new to this lifestyle and has not had to face a punishment, I too am learning a lot from everyone's comments. I do think it is different for different people and even different relationships.

I am only just starting to explore the world of CR and have begun to learn just how close to the "edge" I can get. Mind you, what I thought was close a month ago, I now know wasn't that close at all. In other words, my boundries are changing and I know they will keep changing as I get more confident in my own abilities.

Thus, as my boundries change, so do my Master's expectations of me. I guess one of my concerns with hearing of some subs being punished for not meeting their Dom/me's expectations, is why it happened. As has already been said, there are many and varied reasons for this, and so long as the reason is clear and discussed or communicated, both sub and dom/me can learn from them.

I am positive no subs set out to fail a task, but as fantassy said, if a sub is constantly having to be punished, then maybe there is something that needs changing.

I am in awe of so many of the subs I have gotten to know online, and still wonder if I will ever be able to do what they do! Mistakes will happen, people will have off days, life can intrude on our fun. Whatever happens, it is the communication that seems to be the key to keeping things on track.

I am not sure if I have added anything new to the discussion, but again it was great to read all of the posts. It is a complex issue and one which I as yet don't fully understand, but this is helping.

[precious]

Just to add my 2 cents worth...

First off... i think two entirely separate things are attempting to be discussed in one thread. The first being edging the second being direct disobedience. Though they are intertwined... in my mind they are still two separate issues to discuss....

So, saying that i will respond to the direct disobedience portion...

Have there been times that i have purposely disobeyed my Dominate. Yes, there have been. But, i was new to my submission (this was 6+ years ago), still learning what it was about, felt that W/we were not communicating as needed, had tried to speak to Him about it and had ultimately done the one thing i knew would get His attention and (hopefully) bring me back to where i wanted to be. It was a place in that submission that i couldn't achieve on my own. (If i could have what was the point in having a Dominate to start with?) Was the task related to edging. NO it wasn't. Did i have a punishment for it. BIG TIME. Did i regret doing it, not then and not to this day. AT that point He was not being the Dominate that i needed and my attempts at discussing were not being taken seriously. So, as someone said earlier, yes i did purposefully disobey, wanting the punishment, because there was a larger issue that was the overall problem that was not just MY issue but OUR issue. (Which He did admit later... ) That was probably the last time i truly topped from the bottom with conscience thought.

Has there been times that i have recently disobeyed with TDS. Yes, there has been once. It did concern orgasm denial although not edging specifically. Did i do it on purpose... absolutely not!!! It was a purely unexpected physical response that 99.9% of the time had never been an issue. i was as shocked when the rule was broken as He was disappointed. Yes, of course there was a punishment. (And i'm only posting this because the punishment from that was posted in the Life section all ready so it is public knowledge.) But, i have also noticed that the "order" has been changed. Which would then make it more of a direct disobedience then an unconscionable accident. So, instead of perhaps setting me up for potential failure again, if the circumstances were the same, the perimeters have been changed enough to help me achieve the success that W/we B/both wish. Will the order be changed back at some point. i have no doubt it will be...

What i am trying to say is this...

NO ONE IS PERFECT be they DOM/ME or SUB! Each sub is different, their growth, maturity, need, personality, etc. will play into weather they disobey on purpose or not. Each Dominate is different as well. Who is to say that on some level the Dominate doesn't continue to issue an order just to have the sub fail? Perhaps that is part of their kink as sadists? The feelings that comes from having that extra control or the humiliation associated with the punishment... who knows? So, from my experience the question could be reversed back... Is the Dominate purposefully setting up the sub over and over in anticipation of failure? Yes they are "testing" the sub and pushing limits but isn't it also their responsibility to help ensure success on some level? IF the sub is continually disobeying (particularly one specific order) isn't there a larger issue there that they need to take a look at with the sub? Let's not assume it is an "imperfect" sub that is the cause of the failure, after all this is supposed to be a growth RELATIONSHIP so E/everyone has a part in the outcome....

As i said.. just my 2 cents worth....

[Dragon's muse]

Another tuppence worth.

Edging is a skill. It is learned and can be honed and perfected. How much a sub can take without "disobeying" will depend on where they are in the training process. Expecting a totally green sub to start with hourly edging and keep it up for 12 hours is like expecting someone who has never even run to catch a bus to walk out their front door and run a 4.5 minute mile.

And frankly, sometimes the edge moves around. What has never tipped you over that edge, will sometimes just make you fall screaming into space.

[wildfire3]

Warbaby, I am so glad you posed this question/topic.

Lately I've been questiong myself *sooo* much..."If I really want to follow through on being submissive, why is doing X so hard?"
It's made me doubt my decision to be here a lot. It always seems easier for everyone around me (yeah, I know the grass is always greener...), so why do I struggle with what seem to be the most basic aspects of being submissive? I was pretty upset about it yesterday...I was feeling like a failure as a sub. I was finding certain tasks annoying and bothersome and frustrating, when I wanted them to feel exhiliarating and challenging and...different.
I tried talking about it. I ended up feeling like I telling him what to do. I think I wanted him to be angry. I know I wanted more of a reaction than..."I know you tried your best..." I don't know if I did. Maybe I needed to be pushed harder. And then it's more of the same dull repetitive stuff. So yes, I consciously didn't do what I was asked to do. I walked away from it for a while. I did nothing, but think.
I finally came to the conclusion that if it's making me this unhappy, why am I doing it? If he can't hear me when I seriously say I can't or I won't or that's enough of that, then maybe its not me. Or maybe it is me, and I'm just not the right sub for him. I can live with that...I don't like it because I'm back at square one again, but I told myself I was going to see this through, and I meant it. I'm not going to give up on being a sub just because I blew it the first time online.
I re-read my post and it sounds confusing. Maybe I'm whining. Maybe I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. If so, you can tell me...I'll listen. I know I'm not offering many answers, but this thread really hit a chord right now. Just my 2 cents, anyway.

[TomOfSweden]

Here's the reasons why I think a submissive may break rules set by a Dom.

1) The orders where too unclear.
2) It was unpractical to follow the orders at that time.
3) It's a bad rule which makes the subs life too difficult.

I'd say the top two are unavoidable and the third one has to do with how well the Master knows his slave. If a slave keeps breaking a rule then it may be better revising the rule than to keep dealing out punishment. And if the rule is important for the Dom then, well...some people just aren't meant for one another.

[cariad]

I would agree with those reasons, and add that if I know that I am likely to break a rule I try to always tell him first. This means that he remains in control of the situation, which we both like, and he has the option of helping me to keep to it or managing thngs in such a way that I don't break it.

cariad

[Aussiegirl1]

Warbaby, I am so glad you posed this question/topic.

Lately I've been questiong myself *sooo* much..."If I really want to follow through on being submissive, why is doing X so hard?"
It's made me doubt my decision to be here a lot. It always seems easier for everyone around me (yeah, I know the grass is always greener...), so why do I struggle with what seem to be the most basic aspects of being submissive? I was pretty upset about it yesterday...I was feeling like a failure as a sub. I was finding certain tasks annoying and bothersome and frustrating, when I wanted them to feel exhiliarating and challenging and...different.
I tried talking about it. I ended up feeling like I telling him what to do. I think I wanted him to be angry. I know I wanted more of a reaction than..."I know you tried your best..." I don't know if I did. Maybe I needed to be pushed harder. And then it's more of the same dull repetitive stuff. So yes, I consciously didn't do what I was asked to do. I walked away from it for a while. I did nothing, but think.
I finally came to the conclusion that if it's making me this unhappy, why am I doing it? If he can't hear me when I seriously say I can't or I won't or that's enough of that, then maybe its not me. Or maybe it is me, and I'm just not the right sub for him. I can live with that...I don't like it because I'm back at square one again, but I told myself I was going to see this through, and I meant it. I'm not going to give up on being a sub just because I blew it the first time online.
I re-read my post and it sounds confusing. Maybe I'm whining. Maybe I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. If so, you can tell me...I'll listen. I know I'm not offering many answers, but this thread really hit a chord right now. Just my 2 cents, anyway.

Wlidfire,

Thank you so much for your input into this discussion, and you were NOT whining! In fact, I am sure you are echoing what so many subs have thought at one time or another!

As a relative newcomer to this world, I can understand your view. I have my moments when I wonder "if I don't want to do X that the mean I am not submissive, or if I need to say, that I am not sure about something, that it mean I am not submissive". I have been fortunate to be able discuss issues like this with my Doms and to come to a better understanding of myself because of it.

I do hope you try again to get your Dom to understand what you are feeling. It could be that he thinks you do just need encouragement. He may think you are doing a wonderful job, but it does sound like you need to hear that more from him. Maybe he has a certain reason for having you do these tasks, which he may think you understand, and you don't. PLEASE keep trying to get him to understand your feelings, and then at least you know you have tried your best. As I have been told many times, there are certainly a lot of new feelings you will feel while being submissive and the key is to feel them all and THEN COMMUNICATE them to your Dom.


Good luck and please feel free to PM me anytime, or at least continue to post so you can get some support and guidance.

((( hugs )))

Aussiegirl

[Warbaby1943]

Wlidfire,

Thank you so much for your input into this discussion, and you were NOT whining! In fact, I am sure you are echoing what so many subs have thought at one time or another!

As a relative newcomer to this world, I can understand your view. I have my moments when I wonder "if I don't want to do X that the mean I am not submissive, or if I need to say, that I am not sure about something, that it mean I am not submissive". I have been fortunate to be able discuss issues like this with my Doms and to come to a better understanding of myself because of it.

I do hope you try again to get your Dom to understand what you are feeling. It could be that he thinks you do just need encouragement. He may think you are doing a wonderful job, but it does sound like you need to hear that more from him. Maybe he has a certain reason for having you do these tasks, which he may think you understand, and you don't. PLEASE keep trying to get him to understand your feelings, and then at least you know you have tried your best. As I have been told many times, there are certainly a lot of new feelings you will feel while being submissive and the key is to feel them all and THEN COMMUNICATE them to your Dom.


Good luck and please feel free to PM me anytime, or at least continue to post so you can get some support and guidance.

((( hugs )))

Aussiegirl

OMG baby do we think alike! I told her all the same things in a PM including to contact you in a PM if she wanted to. I told her you were the greatest and you just proved it again. BIG BIG KISS

[caligirl{Rob}]

WOW! I am so happy that this thread was started, as these are all somewhat issues i have been learning to understand even within myself...i suppose my thinking is that tasks and training are a way of learning and growing, and in that a continual motion of change. The completion of the task or the failure of it both lead me to a greater understanding of my limits, my submission and the growth of the D/s relationship. i would think that if i were continually, deliberately "failing" a task, that it would be a red flag to both myself and my Dom. i personally get far more pleasure from accomplishing what M_Rob asks of me than in failing Him, and with open communication He sets a pace for me that allows me to do that while still stretching my limits... As with edging/CR though it is something i may internally (and yes externally at times! LOL) grumble about, i agree with previous oh so wise subs that at some point a different level of consciousness takes over, along with a need on my part and an expectation from Sir that i go to the limit and hopefully with time push that limit/boundary, (is it to the edge, hanging on the edge, or dangling by a thread...smiles) inevitably as with most things in life that is going to lead to an occasional "failure", not deliberate just in my opinion the only way growth takes place~again just my opinion relating to my experience and my submission, were i making a conscious decision to disobey/fail tasks it would be a indicator of the state of the D/s relationship...

my submission is a result of my desire to please M_Rob, and with that i know that failure/punishment/correction should and in our case will lead to a better understanding, a stronger relationship, and a chance to follow up with a successful completion of the task, therefore to make a conscious decision at the start to fail does not make sense to me. i will continue to work diligently to follow as He leads me and expand my submission to Him in greater aspects and areas of my life, i shall stumble in my efforts, but it will always be in my enthusiam to do more/better, not to deliberately search a punishment.

cali...who is not so sure she added anything but has so enjoyed the above posts in this thread!

[TomOfSweden]

I would agree with those reasons, and add that if I know that I am likely to break a rule I try to always tell him first. This means that he remains in control of the situation, which we both like, and he has the option of helping me to keep to it or managing thngs in such a way that I don't break it.

cariad

Yes, being told in advance is the best. I'd get extremly angry if I'm not informed at the first possible oportunity when a slave finds herself i a situation when she has to break a rule. Witholding that information is for me a very serious breach of trust. We all have things we think is the most important, and this is mine.

[wildfire3]

Thanks to everyone for all the support and encouragement (both in this thread and in PM). You guys are fantastic.

I'm going to stick with what I said earlier, as the farther I get from the situation, the more perspective I find. Yes, I think some subs are deliberately disobedient. I agree with what almost everyone who posted before and after me...it's a sign something is wrong. Communication is necessary. If you can't communicate (or if you try and the problem doesn't get fixed), you have to ask yourself lots hard questions.

I think it's terribly easy to get wrapped up in being a sub. I know how much I want for it to happen. I see what a lot of folks on here enjoy and I won't lie...I'm jealous. But as someone else wisely pointed out to me, wanting someone to be the right Dom for you and that actually happening...well, sometimes we don't always get what we want. It's hard to accept that and move on. I wish I could say I got it right the first time...or the second...or the third. But I'm learning something important in the process...patience. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Anyway...thanks again everyone. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who stumbles, sometimes.

[Aussiegirl1]

Wildfire, it is great that you feel supported and that you are able to make what would be a very hard decision. It sounds to me like you have really tried hard and as you said, not every relationship is going to work.

Take care and know you not alone.

((( hugs )))

Aussiegirl

[TheDeSade]

Has anyone considered the rule made in such a way that the Dom/me knows that it will be broken, putting the subbie in a no win situation on purpose?

[TomOfSweden]

Has anyone considered the rule made in such a way that the Dom/me knows that it will be broken, putting the subbie in a no win situation on purpose?

What's the point in that? Why not just whip her straight away?

[TheDeSade]

TOm, I would say it is the mental struggle. A good mind fuck can be as satisfying as a good whipping in my book.

[Guest 91108]

Then there's the MindFuck that can be " induced " (( and i shall leave that at that.) chuckles insanely )

[TheDeSade]

Wolf. . . . in some cases wouldnt that be "fucked mind????"

[annie]

*shakes my head... thinking all of them are EVIL EVIL EVIL ESB's.... *

(no wonder we love em so!)

[Warbaby1943]

I'm still here reading just so you know I have not abandoned this thread. Thanks for all the comments.

[moptop]

Very interesting thread. OK, this is just the random thoughts that occurred to me, and it is just my opinion.

Every sub is different, every Dom/me is different, every D/s relationship is different: the aims are different. Some relationships are much looser, much more based on just sexual play and fun, and not expecting true power transfer. Therefore tasks and task failure can take on a different aspect. It certainly seems to me that in setting a really hard task - long-term cum restriction, for example - the D is purposefully setting a task at which the s will eventually fail. They will keep extending the time until the s fails. Because They will enjoy meeting out the punishment, They will enjoy the distress of the sub. And the sub will accept this pushing of their limits, knowing that, however hard they try they will fail eventually, and knowing that they will eventually enjoy the punishment, however miserable it makes them: even being miserable is just part of it.

But that is when the sub is not purposefully failing: they are sincerely trying to achieve it and stretch their limits, but their D has pushed it to their fail point. It may very well be that next time, the fail point is higher: the sub may learn. Or they may never be able to extend the fail point. That`s just down to the individual and their inner strength and control. We all have a breaking point somewhere.

On the other hand, the sub may very well purposefully fail a task sometimes, but I think it will be to communicate something: it can be playful (hey, I just failed a task that You know I know You know was easy, so You know I failed it on purpose just to wind You up, now You`ve gotta do something about it, that`s pretty much the equivalent of sticking the tongue out and running), willful (I`m in a bad mood and I plain don`t feel submissive so stick this) or a statement of limits (I do not like this, it is beyond what I can accept and I refuse to do it). Now, the playful failure can be acceptable and fun: it depends totally on the level of control and obedience that is expected and agreed on within the reltionship. It can also be that the D is in someway failing their sub: the sub is possibly Topping from the bottom, there. And that is a communication failure. That option and the other purposeful failures all seem to me to indicate communication failure: the D should be aware that sometimes, punishment is not what is needed: sometimes, discussion is. And that could be very hard, and possibly punishment enough, certainly part of learning.

[precious]

What's the point in that? Why not just whip her straight away?

For me there is an entirely different mind set when i am whipped just for the hell of it and whipped as a punishment. So, with that knowledge, the task may be designed so that i fail so that i reach a different level then i would have through just a whipping.

That of course also comes with a potential for disaster as well... a very good mind fuck but a fine line as well...

[precious]

Very interesting thread. OK, this is just the random thoughts that occurred to me, and it is just my opinion.

Every sub is different, every Dom/me is different, every D/s relationship is different: the aims are different. Some relationships are much looser, much more based on just sexual play and fun, and not expecting true power transfer. Therefore tasks and task failure can take on a different aspect. It certainly seems to me that in setting a really hard task - long-term cum restriction, for example - the D is purposefully setting a task at which the s will eventually fail. They will keep extending the time until the s fails. Because They will enjoy meeting out the punishment, They will enjoy the distress of the sub. And the sub will accept this pushing of their limits, knowing that, however hard they try they will fail eventually, and knowing that they will eventually enjoy the punishment, however miserable it makes them: even being miserable is just part of it.

But that is when the sub is not purposefully failing: they are sincerely trying to achieve it and stretch their limits, but their D has pushed it to their fail point. It may very well be that next time, the fail point is higher: the sub may learn. Or they may never be able to extend the fail point. That`s just down to the individual and their inner strength and control. We all have a breaking point somewhere.

On the other hand, the sub may very well purposefully fail a task sometimes, but I think it will be to communicate something: it can be playful (hey, I just failed a task that You know I know You know was easy, so You know I failed it on purpose just to wind You up, now You`ve gotta do something about it, that`s pretty much the equivalent of sticking the tongue out and running), willful (I`m in a bad mood and I plain don`t feel submissive so stick this) or a statement of limits (I do not like this, it is beyond what I can accept and I refuse to do it). Now, the playful failure can be acceptable and fun: it depends totally on the level of control and obedience that is expected and agreed on within the reltionship. It can also be that the D is in someway failing their sub: the sub is possibly Topping from the bottom, there. And that is a communication failure. That option and the other purposeful failures all seem to me to indicate communication failure: the D should be aware that sometimes, punishment is not what is needed: sometimes, discussion is. And that could be very hard, and possibly punishment enough, certainly part of learning.

THANK YOU Moptop! That was what i was trying to say on the first page and failed at miserably....

(*wonders if that failure will get me a spanking... hmmmmmm)

[Rhabbi]

My perspective.

there are a variety of things that go into making this happen. As these posts all bring out, there is a lot of confusion in this life, and even in real life.

I have been reading this thread almost from the beginning, and keep wondering if what I have to say will kake any difference in the long run. I know that personally, I just hate what is happening so much at times that i sanp out at those who are close to me. i would think this would be magnified for a sub, which is why I always strive to make things as easy as possible for them by learning as much about them as possible.

In spite of this, I occasionally miss the signs that she gives, and I walk into something. i then have to deal with that, with her not being happy about what happened, and the fact that I am the one that blew it. If I had been paying attention, I could have given her the release that she needed, rather than force her to show me what she needed.

So, concious or unconcious. Both and neither, and sometimes one or the other. Depends, as has been said, on the situation, the sub, and the Dom/me.

[Aussiegirl1]

Wow, there so many more great posts in this thread! Moptop, Well done! What you said was so right, and yes, everyone does have a fail point. I also loved your description of the different reasons a sub might fail a task! It seems to me that maybe you have experienced all of those reasons personally! LOL

Rhabbi, I loved your view as a Dom. I am sure not all Dom/mes are able to reflect on a situatioin like that, but it needs to happen.

I know that my Master puts a lot of thought into the tasks he sets me, but there will always be an element of the unknown while I am performing a task. For instance, there is a task I am due to do this afternoon, part of which he knows will be very hard for me to do. I have told him this and said I will do my best, as it is the first time I will do this certain task. Knowing that he knows upfront I might fail in part of the task is much better then him thinking everything will be fine, and then me telling him I couldn't do it.

[Warbaby1943]

Wow, there so many more great posts in this thread! Moptop, Well done! What you said was so right, and yes, everyone does have a fail point. I also loved your description of the different reasons a sub might fail a task! It seems to me that maybe you have experienced all of those reasons personally! LOL

Rhabbi, I loved your view as a Dom. I am sure not all Dom/mes are able to reflect on a situatioin like that, but it needs to happen.

I know that my Master puts a lot of thought into the tasks he sets me, but there will always be an element of the unknown while I am performing a task. For instance, there is a task I am due to do this afternoon, part of which he knows will be very hard for me to do. I have told him this and said I will do my best, as it is the first time I will do this certain task. Knowing that he knows upfront I might fail in part of the task is much better then him thinking everything will be fine, and then me telling him I couldn't do it.


Baby you still are batting 1000 you have never failed me yet. I love you for trying everything asked of you.

[Aussiegirl1]

Baby you still are batting 1000 you have never failed me yet. I love you for trying everything asked of you.

Thank you Master! You know it was the toughest thing I have done for you so far, but I do feel wonderful to know I did it. Thank you for your support! BIG KISS

[Sir_Russell]

My experience has been f-2-f (thanks for the term J's blu) with some long distance. I find that I love orgasm control but I don't understand why anyone would go beyond 2 days.
Personally I think it is irresponsible of the Dom/me to ask for that. I want my sub/slave to be happy to be mine, not to wonder what the hell can be gained by this.

The worst experience I have had in the life did not come from subjecting her to too much pain but from having her blindfolded and cuffed into an uncomfortable position. I kept driving her further and further into sub space with many types of pleasure/pain exploits and she began to beg for release. I love to hear my sub/slave beg and so I told her no and continued, her pleading became intense and I just kept on. When she came she was crying because she couldn't hold on anymor.

I felt like shit that I who was supposed to be in control forced her to break my rule of no climax without permission. She spent 20 minutes sobbing about how she failed me. I tried over the next few days to make her understand that it was I that failed her.

Doms need to push limits but we also need to know when the limit is about to be broken and trust lost to some degree.

Just my thoughts

Russell

[orchid]

forgive me but...
here's a question back to you as a Dom/me
don't you sometimes issue your order with the subconscious desire that we do disobey?

im not saying that Dom/mes set out to deliberatly set a task that a sub would fail at nor am i saying that a sub will deliberatly disobey...but...

it stands to reason that if you both enjoy the outcome of the punishment, that there would be some underlying desire for that to be the end result, wouldn't it?

just popping in another point of view here because im feeling like pushing my luck - lol - Lord knows, that will get me in trouble eventually!

to be serious, i will answer another way as well - when my Master sets forth a task for me that i find unusually difficult, i still try my best to comply with the terms of that task - succeed or fail, i need to know that i did my best and i need Him to know i did my best. if i have tried...honestly and really truly tried...and still failed, that will yield a far more different result than if i only tried half-assed in an attempt to lure out the punishment if it is one that i may enjoy.

as a side note, when ever i have tried to lure out the punishment i think i want, my Master has made certain that it is not something i would enjoy...not at all - and i end up losing twice...not only did i disappoint my Master, i ended up being severly punished when i thought i might get away with something that would ultimately be enjoyable.

[Sir_Russell]

orchid,

I speak only for me not for all Dom/mes but I never set a task that I feel she will have to fail at. There is an old saying that I will probably mangle that goes like this, "It is a wise general that leads his troops where they want to go, it is a great general that can inspire his troops to want to go where they must".

When she fails a task I set then I have failed her. Punishment is given to correct the behavor and adjust the attitude but when punishment is for a real transgression then it should never be enjoyable to the sub/slave.

Russell

[cariad]

I just can't see the point of being set a task which he knows I fail. It seems to set up us both on a route to something which we both dislike.

TDS - you ask about Dom's deliberately putting a sub into a no-win situation. I don't think I have ever experienced that, and I would feel betrayed if he did. I take his requests extremely seriously and do my utmost to meet them - I would not know how to react to a deliberately impossible one, but thinking about it, it would seem to mock my endeavours to please him and it would be harmful to our relationship.

Now a task which he hopes I will achieve, but will stretch me, is different. That becomes a mutual task, my part is to keep going and be successful in it, and his is to encourage and support me to help me to achieve that success. If I succeed then we can both celebrate, and if I fail, we both fail, and knowing that the disappointment we both feel at what I have not achieved is more than adequate punishment. At that point I need reassurance rather than isolation. Now, that reassurance might involve me getting very sore - not as a punishment, but as a reaffirmation of our relationship.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

I just can't see the point of being set a task which he knows I fail. It seems to set up us both on a route to something which we both dislike.

TDS - you ask about Dom's deliberately putting a sub into a no-win situation. I don't think I have ever experienced that, and I would feel betrayed if he did. I take his requests extremely seriously and do my utmost to meet them - I would not know how to react to a deliberately impossible one, but thinking about it, it would seem to mock my endeavours to please him and it would be harmful to our relationship.

Now a task which he hopes I will achieve, but will stretch me, is different. That becomes a mutual task, my part is to keep going and be successful in it, and his is to encourage and support me to help me to achieve that success. If I succeed then we can both celebrate, and if I fail, we both fail, and knowing that the disappointment we both feel at what I have not achieved is more than adequate punishment. At that point I need reassurance rather than isolation. Now, that reassurance might involve me getting very sore - not as a punishment, but as a reaffirmation of our relationship.

cariad

I think that the D/s relationship TDS is refering to is radically different than what I and from the sound of it, you have, and are thinking about. I share your sentiment completely, but I doubt TDS would set up his slave with tasks that she will fail, if they have a relationship where completing tasks is important. Mindgames of this sort only work if both see it as just that, a game.

I think it's a question of what you're trying to build together. Do I as a Master want to let my slave show devotion by completing tasks for me, or do I as a Master just want to see how far I can push my slave before she breaks.

I think it's simply a matter of what we think is most fun and finding a slave or Master on the same level.

[Warbaby1943]

I never set a task I want I think Aussiegirl will fail. I don't want her to ever fail. I want her happy and she is happy when she thinks of tasks as achievable. Neither of us are into pain or punishment and I don't think I could punish her if I tried. I want more her happiness than to fulfill some need to her see her suffer. That's just not me. Mind games I love to play with her but punishment isn't on my agenda.

[precious]

TDS has yet to set up a task for me that i would fail at. That is how i show my devotion to Him is through the completion of assorted tasks, just as most of the subbie's out there do for their Dominates.

Have i failed a task with Him, yes, but, as i stated earlier in this thread, it was not an intentional failure at the time and since then the order has been revised to allow me the best chance of success. And when W/we discussed that failure i saw it as a complete failure at the time, where as He saw it as i had failed one portion of the exact task but something else in the relationship had grown and advanced from that failure, so ultimately there were overall positive results.

There have been tasks that i have almost failed at... but then again, they weren't designed for that to be the outcome but they were designed to push a limit and to help our relationship grow....

Will there be a time that TDS gives me a catch 22 task? i, as His, expect it on many levels. Have we directly discussed that being something that would happen. No, but based on what i know about Him, the type of play that we both enjoy, etc. i expect it to happen for two simple reasons...

1. There are some areas that i can not experience growth in until i am pushed to the point of failure just based on who i am. i have to "fail" in order to get past the confines, probably mental more then anything, that is preventing success in other areas. i need the failure to be able to release myself so that i will allow and accept the resulting growth. There are many out there who function this way... and imho, i would rather have a planned failure (although i may not know exactly at that moment that it is planned), where i know i will be picked up and taken care of after wards so i can grow and move forward then to have the failure when i am most vulnerable to extreme negatives without the follow up care. (If that makes any sense.)

2. As TDS said, sometimes a mind fuck can be as enjoyable as a good whipping. Would everyone enjoy that... no. But, like with any good D/s relationship that is where boundries, limits, etc. are discussed before hand and put into play. TDS knows that i ultimately enjoy the mind fuck. It, to me, is a large part of a D/s relationship and i do enjoy that as much as i do a good whipping! And, at the point of realization of the mind fuck, is where it becomes evident that the task was not a "failure." The portion of the task that made the mind fuck successful may have required a failure on some level but ultimately the ending result is a success for both of us. His knowing (as well as it can be known) the response and my response, which would require a great deal of trust in Him and the relationship, during the mind fuck work towards that success and in the end growth.

So, that being said, yes both reasons, but especially reason 2 has to be handled with caution and care. Communication has to be open, limits discussed, etc. Tasks designed in those fashions probably, in some ways, require more detail to attention by a Dominate then a majority of other tasks, just because of the possible extreme emotions that could be caused by either.

But, are they wrong? NO... as long as that is what each in the relationship enjoy. Do they make the relationship a "game?" By no means do they do that. It adds a different aspect to the relationship, but as before if that is what each party enjoys there is nothing wrong with it. Is that for each couple? Once again NO... each person/couple/relationship is different.

Just another aspect of what makes each D/s relationship so special and unique.

EDIT: i do feel that i need to add a note here. There is a difference between a "mind fuck" and a Dominate who is actually just an abuser or out to be cruel. A mind fuck is something both parties ultimately enjoy... imho, in some fashion. If a Dominate does it for any other purpose, his own pleasure, etc. without considering the sub, their response, the future of that response, etc. that is when it moves into abuse... Once again just my opinion but felt it necessary to add...

[cariad]

But, are they wrong? NO... as long as that is what each in the relationship enjoy. Do they make the relationship a "game?" By no means do they do that. It adds a different aspect to the relationship, but as before if that is what each party enjoys there is nothing wrong with it. Is that for each couple? Once again NO... each person/couple/relationship is different.

Precious, as you say in your edit, none of this applies to abusive relationships. That being said, I think the paragraph should be framed and added to the entrance hall of this place.

One of the joys of this place is discovering what works for other people, sometimes exploring those ideas with them, and then personally accepting or rejecting it as something embraceable.

It would be very a boring place to be if we were all the same, each with the same experiences and perspectives.

Well said Precious,

cariad

[Warbaby1943]

The post have been very enlightening. I have enjoyed them all. Thanks everyone.

[orchid]

great points by everyone i think
wonderful conversation