just an idea...

[sirthumper]

This is just an idea for a story that I thought of...

The story starts with a network of men, all older guys (40s and 50s), who band together solely for the purpose of kidnapping and raping a young girl. I'd make The Network consist of, say, 8-12 guys.

The early part of the tale should focus on their preparations, i.e. outfitting a small house outside of town with all the necessary "equipment". I imagine one guy in the Network should be wealthy - to afford the house - or maybe all the guys could pitch-in to buy the place and stuff they'll need.

Then, I'd have the men start prowling for a victim. They could visit places like the local malls, junior high volleyball games, local waterparks, etc. until they decide on a suitable candidate. I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs., but a bit larger is okay too.

Once they get a prospect, then they have to abduct her. I'd have the men stake-out her house, maybe even stalking her and keeping tabs on her with video and sound survielance equipment. They should keep her under constant watch until one weekend, when her parents are gone shopping, and the girl is home alone, they decide to strike. Her abduction could take place as she sunbathes in her backyard (her parents live in a secluded unscale home). I'd have her facedown on a blanket, wearing a flimsy bikini, as the 4 men approach. All the men should be wearing masks of some sort. Either ski masks or pantyhose.

It's up to you if you want the men to rape the girl then and there in her backyard, or wait until they carry her back to the van, or even wait until they get back to the house. Or all three! Either way, I'd have the men leave behind a type-written "runaway" note, to throw off her parents and cops.

Once they get back to the house, do whatever you want with her, but no disfiguring torture or snuff. Personally, I don't go for that.

Still, after weeks or humiliation, abuse, and near-constant rape, the men make some contacts over the Internet and successfully sell the young girl to an overseas contact. The story ends with the tiny teenager being packed into a crate (with airholes!) and shipped overseas, where she disappears forever into the shadowy world of N. African harems and white slavery. Never to be seen again!

Yikes!

Uh, anyway, I hope this idea inspires somebody. Thanks for your time. :)

[Cleo671]

Not meaning to sound 'offensive', but isn't 8th or 9th grade over where you are, a girl that is under the age of legal consent?
In other words your referring to a 'child'.

I find that you have written your post sufficiently, and that your grasp of the English language is adequate. So, my next question is, when it concerns 'children', why can't you write your own very little personal story? After all you have practically written a synopsis right here haven't you? I think in most 'places' people actually do find the use of children in sexual stories or porn offensive. Do people consider, before posting 'topics' whether or not other people have children or not or do topics require 'codes' now?. That's a subject I'd sure like to raise.


Its fair to say that this is a forum where ideas can be tossed around, but I find it disturbing when the subject of children is something that is associated with 'sexual' arousal. What is sexually arousing about a child? A girl of that age is a child.

Next time you wanna place a topic on 'child' rape, why don't you code it, so those of us that do have children, HAVE THE OPTION OF NOT SEEING THE FIRST FEW SENTENCES.


THANKYOU.

[Neopadinski]

Eighth or ninth grade...that would make this female...approximately 13 or 14. Er...yes, that does produce some negative points. Hm...the actual storyline does sound quite enticing...I would accept it and change the age, if I didn't have a massive story that I'm already working on. Maybe, if you're willing to hold that thought, I could write it once I'm done with the other one (but that's going to take quite some time, I've only just finished part two and the story's just heating up).
As for the child porn stuff, I think sirthumper just made a small mistake-the underage thing was kind of minor in the synopsis, and had I been the one writing it, I wouldn't have thought to put the code in the title. Not that I'm saying Cleo is wrong, just making clear that I think sirthumper made the mistake honestly.
Now that I think of it, when a person says "ninth grade", you don't really think of them as THAT old. After all, one more tends to think of that girl in High School, rather than their age, which makes the girl sound older. I don't have kids, but I would assume that a mother or father would pick up on the opposite-age over connotation.

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
Not meaning to sound 'offensive', but isn't 8th or 9th grade over where you are, a girl that is under the age of legal consent?
In other words your referring to a 'child'.

That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest.

Sex with a girl of 14 in my area is considered a 'statutory" crime--much like underage drinking or driving. If the girl is 14 and the actor is less than 4 years older, it is not a crime at all, statutory or otherwise. If the girl is 15-17 and the actor is less than 10 years older, it is not a crime, statutory or otherwise. Now, if your objection is to the idea of abduction and forcible rape, well sure, that's a bad thing regardless of the age of the victim. But you'll find a lot of abducting and forcible raping in the stories on this site. Good thing it's all fiction.

I think that's really what it boils down to--it's fiction. And in this, of all venues, we should expect to be a bit shocked, surprised, or even appalled at times. Requiring that "warnings" be attached to posts on the forum would do nothing but create a whole lot of busywork for the folks who provide us this forum. Please, no slight intended, but I don't agree that we need such labeling of posts. If we're here, the assumption is we're of age and capable of dealing with material we may find unsavory. Applying warnings of possibly "offensive" material in posts strikes me as being as unnecessary as affixing warnings to lighters proclaiming them "flammable."

Well, no shit.

My apologies--I don't mean to offend, truly. But I have to say that I feel applying "warning labels" to posts belabors the obvious. This is a BDSM forum. Of COURSE some things are going to offend.

:)
Kallie

[Cleo671]

That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest

In what sense is that?
A girl of 14-15, here 8th or 9th grade can be 13-14.
The suggestion you make is that 'heaps' of girls that age are all 'sexually' mature individuals, when the reality is that they aren't. They are still children in the sense that the majority are in SCHOOL, they live at home and I would doubt their 'first' goal would be to be 'married' in all that this entails ie they are minors.

but I'm not going to even continue in this train because I know it's gonna upset many, but it's food for thought either way.

I'd be really interested as to which writer would feel 'comfortable' ultimately to write the story using a girl of that age.

And if it's a writer that is considering a 'professional' career, then perhaps a little more food for thought.. because ultimately karma does exist and literary things usually do come back thricefold.

[boccaccio2000g]

Originally posted by Cleo671
That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest

In what sense is that?
A girl of 14-15, here 8th or 9th grade can be 13-14.
The suggestion you make is that 'heaps' of girls that age are all 'sexually' mature individuals, when the reality is that they aren't. They are still children in the sense that the majority are in SCHOOL, they live at home and I would doubt their 'first' goal would be to be 'married' in all that this entails ie they are minors.



Cleo, while I'm sympathetic to your concerns, I think that "age" is more subjective than the stark mathematical number that age represents. It's a question, I think, of physical and emotional maturity. In some times and in some places, girls of fourteen have been considered quite mature. Juliet, after all, was fourteen, and we don't feel that Romeo was taking advantage of her, do we?

So I think it depends -- just as it does with real fourteen-year-olds, some of whom are very mature (mentally and emotionally, I mean) and some of whom are not.

That said, I believe that the youngest "woman" to appear in one of my stories was fifteen -- but fifteen in a faraway land long ago, where, partly because of much shorter life spans, girls were considered 'nubile' or marriageable at a much earlier age than nowadays.

Personally, I share your distaste for stories which sexualize "little girls", however we define them. It's just that I'm not sure that we can define them with a number. I personally would click to another story if any 'heroine' is describes as thirteen or younger -- but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone could write an intelligent story about the love-life, real and imagined, of some thirteen-year-olds.


Boccaccio

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
I'd be really interested as to which writer would feel 'comfortable' ultimately to write the story using a girl of that age.

I may write it, should the inspiration come upon me. If I do, I feel confident the appropriate coding on the story will keep you from cracking it open and taking offense :)


Originally posted by Cleo671 And if it's a writer that is considering a 'professional' career, then perhaps a little more food for thought.. because ultimately karma does exist and literary things usually do come back thricefold.

A few points to consider:

1) Already have a professional career.

2) Karma is a polluting or sweetening of the waters we must all swim in rather than the common misconception of "do a bad deed, it nails you in the ass later." If, of course, you believe in Karma. I don't.

3) I would venture to say that the vast majority of writers here do not use their real names. I'm not Kallie Thomas--are you Cleo671?

4) If what you say is actually true, then every writer here, whether they pen stories with 13 year olds or 30 year olds, is ripe for the title "pornographer" and "perv," and would suffer for their writing. But I look at it this way--Roman Polanski can drug and rape a 13 year old, flee punishment, and still be heralded as one of the greats, still see amazing successes in his career. And if he can do that, I can likely pen a few stories with 14 year old subjects and be A-okay, especially considering I do deal in matters of fiction.

;)
Kallie

[redEva]

Wow – talking about posts going awry!

SirThumper (Bambi comes to mind – so sweet :) – did Thumper grow up?) do come back and talk to us. First post and we scared you away?!

It is interesting, this discussion, the feelings it provoked and generally the feelings about BDSM.

I was involved in BDSM (in my fantasies and in real life) for long time before I returned to college and took “Human Sexuality” elective – figuring out it will be an easy mark ;). And so it was – except having a teacher who gave a lecture declaring that people involved in BDSM practice are emotionally disturbed, psychically debilitated people that are not capable of having ‘normal’ sexual relationship. Woman of 50+, me (34) and a classroom full of 20 years! I did not have much choice but to let that one go (though, if a thought could kill – she would not be alive any more!).

At different times in our life’s, due to the circumstances we are in or have been through, we have different points of view and different reactions to things. Being mother/father of a minor changes your perspective from which you reflect upon fantasy stories involving minor characters. If one has been a victim of molestation as a child – the reactions will be very strong (and can go either way; from being drawn to incest/sex-with-minor stories to being completely appalled by the same).

One thing to keep in mind is (as kallie and boccaccio said) that what we are talking here about is fantasy stories. I have found and read (because I was looking for them!) stories here and on the other sites involving minors and children. To me, children are asexual, and having them involved in any sexual activity is not arousing, just prepubescent and teens are (in most cases in real life) at least sexually curious, which makes them fair game for story (in my mind).

As Cleo pointed out – good thing is that stories have codes! So you don’t need to read what you don’t like. For the Forum on the other hand – IMHO – the codes would be overkill. I see it somewhat similar as Movies vs. News on TV. You get your rating for movie, but News can be just as much disturbing (if not more in many cases) but one expect it to be kind-of edgy.

The story suggestion is cool in my opinion. Not exactly the same but on the same line (and close in the age category ;) ) are Ninja Turtle (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/author.php?authorid=659) stories. I would love to read the story that you are describing – why don’t you try to write it?

Good luck :)

[Neopadinski]

Hm...yes, I personally don't find [u]very[u\] young heroines to be sexually arousing, simply because they aren't as fully matured as they could be. For me, I tend to lean toward the sixteen year olds and higher, as they are still young and innocent, but are quite mature (physically and otherwise).
As for that comment redEva made about the lecturer telling about the joys of psycological screwups involved in bdsm, I think that's crap. The concept of seeing that very attractive female on the street tied up and naked and being assaulted doesn't make me a weirdo (though I still wouldn't advertise it via shouting it from the rooftops). However, I wouldn't be surprised if the two [psycological badness and bdsm] were related, but the other way around. An interest in bdsm doesn't make one a horny psycopath that steals women (or, in cases other than mine, men), but I wouldn't be surprised if the lonely kid with no friends and cuts himself with knives every night (exaggeration) DEVELOPED an interest in bdsm. If placed in those shoes, I would find it very comforting knowing that the "super-hot female that pretends I don't exist" is bound and gagged and about to be punished by me for being a bitch. I wouldn't be able to do it in real life, but I could get ideas from bdsm stories/pictures and ACTUALLY take this girl. Now, to sum it all up, I don't think that an interest in BDSM makes someone abnormal; instead, I think that an abnormal person might coincidentally have an interest in it, because it gives that person a feeling of satisfaction or something else. Is this making sense? Because I only woke up 45 minutes ago and I'm not even sure what day it is.

[Curtis]

I probably shouldn't even bring this up (though I will, anyway), but another aspect of this is just what age constitutes pedophilia. e.e.norcod, some fellow I can't remember, and I had a discussion in another thread about 'how young is too young'. One of us thought that 12 was ok, one thought 14 and one held out for 16. I believe that Jinn has set 13 as the minimum threshold for stories submitted to this site, and I know BDSM_Tourguide and/or Jinn deleted a facetious want ad for someone looking for a young girl.

The point I'm trying to make is, if you're going to call for 'posting codes', where do you draw the 'pedo' line? If it's at 12, then sirthumper is golden. If it's a different age, then why is it different?

There is AT LEAST one other thread discussing legal age of consent and how it varies from nation to nation and state to state. My state is a lot stricter than Kallie Thomas' state, but The Green And Pleasant Land seems to be more liberal than either, so whose arbitrary standard gets used?

It looks like Jinn's gets used, and that's good enough for me.

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by Kallie Thomas
And if he can do that, I can likely pen a few stories with 14 year old subjects and be A-okay, especially considering I do deal in matters of fiction.

;)
Kallie

yep.. so just because Ernest Hemingway shot himself in the head..I might as well go and do that to.. :D if we go by that logic alone. :rolleyes:

There are a lot of adults that are involved in bdsm, but it's adult play, it's their lifestyle, it's their choice.

what Neopadinksi said is important

An interest in bdsm doesn't make one a horny psycopath that steals women
just like homosexuality doesn't make a homosexual a pederast..

but just like other 'areas' that are grey, the term bdsm = bondage,discipline, sadism and masochism is just that to 'me'. To others sure it's going to vary.

when it's between adults, it's usually with a form of consent.
However as there are grey areas in everything, there are extensions to this I do realise..so 'I'm sorry' for making a point about what I did, so yeah I guess it will include gang rape of a minor...

anyway, the point I made is 'valid' whether it's liked or really abhorred, whether it's annoyed people or whatever..

as for codes? Forget codes, why not have a forum section that's simply titled.
" Rape stories featuring minors?"

[GaryWilcox]

Out of everyone in the forum, I'm probably the person with the most widely-known 'issue' with the lifestyle, namely that I have been known to stop participating, deleting all my writing and collected images, and walk away from BDSM altogether.

Since I have that perspective, I should probably say something here, lest you think I am cowardly shrinking to the background, which I guess I was.

Back when I started, I decided the age group I would put my victims in would not defy the bar of sixteen. I have been in high school and lusted brainlessly after fourteen-year-old freshmen girls, so I'm aware that girls can be sexually aware and active at that age... but at the time I felt like that, I was a child myself.

It doesn't disturb me to see people write about the rape of a fourteen year old as it does to see someone want to see the planning of such a thing, the plotting. I write evil, vile characters, but I *won't* give someone a blueprint for crime. For instance, Kallie's recent story, Trust & Toilets, I abandoned after finding out the victim was a) 15 and b) way too gullible for me to enjoy. Kallie writes some pretty hardcore stuff whens he's in the mood, and I don't really have a problem with that. Some of her stuff I love. Some of her stuff I don't read. Easy enough. <g>

I had considered writing this story as an exercise-- learning how to compromise what a reader wants without having to do what I personally (and Cleo, too) consider an evil-- writing about a game plan to rape a fourteen year old girl. I have a niece that age; it would worry me that someone like her, someone I don't know, might suffer because of my story. Since my 'sacrifice porn to Jesus" stint, I have grown increasingly insistent on making certain that the reader identifies with the victim, as well as the attacker(s).

If I were to write this story, I would make the victim the focus of the story, let her wonder how they pulled it off, and tell it almost entirely from her miserable, unhappy perspective. I think the stories I am most uncomfortable with are entirely misogynistic and have no empathy for the victim's plight or contain any of her mental process.

And I think I'd make her eighteen-- a Chinese exchange student with a small, pert body for sirthumper, without sacrificing my own ethics.

My two cents, folks. Spend 'em both in one place!

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
yep.. so just because Ernest Hemingway shot himself in the head..I might as well go and do that to.. :D if we go by that logic alone. :rolleyes:

Logic? Your logic, hon, not mine--that's not even close to what I said. Want me to lay it out for you in simpler terms? Here: If Roman Polanski can do something THAT atrocious in REAL life and suffer nothing for it, odds have it my little works of fiction aren't going to cause me any grief. And that, my dear, is a far, far cry from saying, "He did it, so I'll do it, too!" Of course, it's possible that you didn't misunderstand at all, but rather intentionally misrepresented my words. Sad to say, folks do that with appalling frequency. Remember, you were the one who claimed that those of us who write fiction involving minors were likely to suffer damage, career-wise. I was merely showing the flaw in that theory.

This is the spot where I'm supposed to roll my eyes dismissively, right? Well, I don't play that way. We'll leave the rolling eyes to you.

And no one said your point wasn't valid, only that the suggested solution was unecessary and somewhat redundant. In a forum such as this, if WE aren't smart enough and adult enough to blink, shake our heads, and close a post that offends us, then maybe we aren't smart enough or adult enough to be in this forum.

Here's another illustrative statement--I don't believe in censoring television, but rather support the right of people to change the channel. I don't support the shuffling of certain books into dark little back rooms with signs over the doors, but rather support the right of folks to not purchase or read them. And I can't get behind labeling posts or throwing them into a marked bin based upon the possibility that you might be offended, but rather support your right to read those first few lines, realize it's not your cup of tea, and click that "back" button.

Like the rest of us do. There have been threads and photographs here I have found spectacularly offensive. I click out. I change the channel.

Try it.

Kallie

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
Kallie writes some pretty hardcore stuff whens he's in the mood, and I don't really have a problem with that. Some of her stuff I love. Some of her stuff I don't read. Easy enough. <g>


Thank you, Gary :) That's exactly what I'm talking about--click out, back slowly away if the words on the page offend. I do it all the time, and it is just that easy.

Believe it or not, there are stories I begin to write, and then back away because I just cannot find it within myself to finish. The story you mention was almost one of those. The battle I fight is one where age vs innocence, i.e., I like the innocent victim, the naive victim who is absolutely stunned by what's happening. But it's hard to attribute that naivete to a 37 year old character. I suppose I could make all my victims novice nuns, but that has a couple of built-in problems: 1) it brings about hate mail (people respond very strongly to enslaved, abused nuns), and 2) that would get awfully boring after a while. I've used a deaf character to impart that innocence, and that worked pretty well, but again, I can't make every character deaf. So what I wind up with are 15-16 year old victims who are particularly sheltered. It's a compromise for me.

Personal experience colors all of our works. At 14, I was the only girl in my group of 8 or so who wasn't sexually active. Not one of my friends hadn't had sex by 13. By the time I had my first child, two of my highschool friends were grandmothers. Working as a bartender to get through college cemented my ideas about teens and sex--I spent as much time tossing 13-14 year olds out of the bars as I did mixing drinks. And these girls were dressed and made up and behaving like women, not children. To borrow from them, the were there to get drunk and laid. So in my experience, many 14 year old girls most certainly are sexually active, in a big way. And that's why I don't blink at a 14 year old character.


I can absolutely sympathize with Cleo's distaste for stories/posts that delve into underage sex. What I can't understand is the desire to slap warning labels on anything and everything that might offend. We're adults here--I have faith that we can just close a post that offends and move on to the next, rather than stomp and fume and insist that things be set up in such a way as to protect our sensibilities.

Kallie

[sirthumper]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their intelligent comments. Thanks for responding y'all! How kind. :)

First off, It seems a few people are overly concerned about the age I posted for the "victim" of my tale. Truth be told, I think I erred and placed the possible age a wee bit too young. I thing the lowest anyone should go in a story is 15, and the ideal age for the character in my tale is 15-16. So, I really should have said 9th or 10th grade. Oops! Me bad!

Now, I'm aware a few who posted will STILL think that is too young. Well, I just have a few questions for those individuals: what age is the appropriate to write a bdsm FANTASY tale? And what exactly makes the humiliation and abuse of a 15 year-old WRONG, while the torment of an 18 year-old is somehow "a-okay?" Answer me that, and maybe I'll bump the age up a few years.

Ya see, it seems to me a few people are having trouble grasping the concept of the word "story." That's all this little idea is, nothing more. It will NEVER happen in real life! A vast Network of rapists doesn't exist, and NEVER will! Ya see, rapists are sociopaths, and typically pathetic, weak, weasly men who probably don't have many friends, and would hardly function in a large group with a complex common goal that requires intricate planning and patience. That's what makes my story idea rather safe as far as a possible motivator for copycat psychos. 'Nuff said?

As for me personally, I never have - and NEVER WILL - harm any female. I'm involved with a gorgeous college girl who's both an athlete and an exceptional scholar. (Her 3.9 GPA blows-away the paltry 3.2 I recieved.) Curiosly enough, she's also a virgin - quite an accomplishment for a girl that's 21 in this day and age. I respect her stance regarding premarital sex and will stand by her decision It's just that every now and then I enjoy stories like those that can be found in bdsm sites. Extreme erotica is a fairly enticing turn-on for me, just so long as the writer has the literary chops to put together a good well-paced story.

Bottom line: I like my story idea, and I prefer my victims a wee bit on the the young side. If that's too extreme, well, tough cookies! I myself have problems with stories involving snuff and scat and any type of disfiguring torture. Too me, that's too extreme. Ya see, we all have our bizarre preferences when reading this sort of FICTION. Lets just keep this in mind: we're dealing with fantasy here, get it? It's not real!

Now get writing! (On my story idea, that is.) :)

Oh yeah, one more thing: Have a Very MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

Sirthumper

p.s. Once again, thanks for writing such nice polite replies.

[sirthumper]

One more thing:

First of all, sorry for the few punctuation and grammer goofs in my previous post. Darn! Not enough sleep last night. Me and the girl were up talking till 5am.

Regarding Point of View in my tale, I prefer the 3rd person omniscient. I think the take is most effective if told from that point of view, not from the girl's point of view. The focus on the story should be on her humiliation and the various ways the men choose to torment her. Check-out "Test Subjects" by Xodus, or "Sneaking Out" by Semiater. I like the tone and literary quality of those tales. But that's just me. :)

The reason I have so much interest in the planning of the girl's abduction in my tale is to build suspense. Too many stories skimp on this aspect of the tale - the build-up - and the stories suffer as a consequence. In addition, for the victim, the revelation that a large group of older men pooled their resources and energies for weeks to plan her abduction, well, that should have a devestating effect on her mental state. The sense of dread she feels, as she comes to realize she'd been the object of their eyes for weeks and months, should only add to her sense of utter helplessness.

Uh, just thought I'd add that little bit.

Take care, and Happy Holidays!!

p.s. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the various "Tiffany" stories by Dr. Wu and even the short "Mammoth Cave" by Typoman. Other good stories!

[MrJerseyGuy]

I agree with sirthumper that the "fantasy" and "fiction" perspective shouldn't be lost. Personally, underage isn't my thing but I have no problem with someone writing about it or reading about it. The main thing that would stop me from writing about forcible acts on an underage girl is the remote possibility that someone with different values would read it, like it and act it out. I couldn't live with myself if I provided the motivation behind such a thing. I realize it's a rare possibility and even if it did happen its unlikely I would ever know about it. Still, the easiest way to avoid the whole thing is simply not to write it!

I've even thought about writing of a 15 or 16 year old girl who is ahead of her years and uses sex to blackmail men.

[woodsman'sgame]

When sexual abuse at 13 and older has been a part of someone's real life, stories like this become extremely distasteful.

If it is all fantasy, I suppose it is no different from the rape of a twenty year old. Rape fantasies are rape fantasies.

What age is too young? Well we can debate forever on that. Yes, as has been pointed out, it all depends on the country, the girl, the time in history.

But, in my opinion, what it all boils down to is this: if the writer portrays the female as a child and not as a grown woman (pay attention to the description of the female to make this decision), then its child abuse and child pornography, period, no matter what the age.

I read a story in the library that had a 14 year old, but the description of the female from her physical appearance to her mental disposition was that of a child, a little girl, innocent and unaware of sex. In my opinion, that story was a story of child abuse. I don't care if the girl had been 18. She was described as a child. The author put an arbritary age out to pass the criteria for publication. I read this story to the end to see how far this author would go. The last chapter described the rapists' plans to get a 9 or 10 year old next. I think this one may have slipped by Jinn.

There is something to think about.

[Neopadinski]

I do believe I have brought up this point already, but in my stories, the female is always 16 or so. I just so happen to think of that age group being prime for the types of stories I write.
I must also bring up another point: I would never hit a girl, I would, however, hit a male that hits a girl. Now I have walked a fine line between reality and fiction. I remember back in my...Sophomore year, was it? There was a girl that lived across the field from my house. She was absolutely beautiful-gorgeous face, huge breasts, cute feet...and for a time, I daydreamed of sneaking into her house and tickling her and all this stuff. I had no intention of ACTUALLY doing it, but that didn't stop me from planning every aspect. Hypothetically, I probably could've accomplished such a task, without even being caught. But morally, that was much too far across the line for me to even consider on a realistic level. It was always fantasy. I think perhaps that's another, more subtle aspect of what sirthumper is saying. Back when I used to do things like that, thinking of what would be done to this girl was arousing, but then thinking about the actual task of getting into her house and neutralizing her also added to the sexuality surrounding the situation. The above might have sounded quite...disturbing to some people, but keep in mind that I was a horny high school male who didn't have a girlfriend. Once I got a girlfriend and determined that sex wasn't as great as it seemed, I stopped with the creepy kind of daydreaming and turned to just thinking of plots for my stories.

[woodsman'sgame]

Bye the way, Sir Thumper, your description of your victim falls in that category I find questionable, no matter what the age.

Sir Thumper wrote:
"I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs.,"

This sounds like a child to me. A girl of that size and age would barely even have breasts and pubic hair. She would not be fully grown, that's for sure, since most women do not stop growing until about 16.

[Xue Lan]

This is a news story from The National Post newspaper in Canada.

P.E.I. ball player sentenced to jail for sexual contact with underage girls

ALISON AULD
Canadian Press


Monday, December 22, 2003

CHARLOTTETOWN (CP) - A young baseball hopeful who dreamed of playing in the big leagues was sentenced Monday to 45 days in jail for sexual offences involving 12- and 13-year-old schoolgirls in Prince Edward Island.

Cass Rhynes, 19, listened impassively in a small provincial court room as Judge Nancy Orr read a 90-minute sentence report outlining the cases of adolescent sexual activity that stunned people throughout the Island.

In the end, she said anything but a custodial sentence would not be enough to convey the distress Rhynes caused the girls and their community.

"As 12-and 13-year olds, these girls should not have had to endure these difficulties," Orr said as Rhynes stood before her in a dark black suit and gold tie.

"A sentence should denounce this conduct."

Rhynes appeared unmoved by the decision and merely rolled his eyes when the judge ruled out handing him a conditional sentence because she feared he might reoffend.

Orr also sentenced Rhynes to one year's probation and 100 hours of community service.

He is also forbidden from being alone with girls under the age of 14 and has to write letters of apology to the victims in the case.

Rhynes, a catcher drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers earlier this year, admitted during his trial that he received oral sex from two girls who he believed were over 14 years of age, the age of consent in Canada.

In fact, the girls were 12- and 13-year-old junior high students.

Rhynes, of Cornwall, P.E.I., was convicted in October on two counts of inciting girls under the age of 14 to touch him for sexual purposes.

Now that he has a criminal record, Rhynes will be barred from entry to the United States, regardless of whether he manages to revive his chance of a career in pro ball.

A relative of one of the girls said Monday she was satisfied with the sentence, but dismayed that Rhynes, who was 18 at the time of the incidents, didn't show remorse or indicate he understood he was part of a disturbing wider trend among teens.

"They're targeting the 12-year-old girls because these girls do not have the wherewithal to make the good decisions," the woman, who can't be identified, said outside the court house.

"We find that very disturbing that he has shown no remorse. We hope that maybe when he's sitting in jail for 45 days he'll have some time to think about that."

But John Mitchell, who represented Rhynes, said he took exception with the idea that his client was unrepentant. Mitchell argued that the hulking 215-pound catcher believed what he did was morally, not criminally wrong.

"His view is he made a moral mistake - he thought they were of legal age and therefore there was nothing criminal about it," he said.

At the time, Rhynes was a popular young athlete who made much of the fact that he was a 2003 draft pick and held a scholarship to a Florida college with a top-ranked baseball training program.

Rhynes was drafted in the 45th round of the annual draft. There are 50 rounds in the draft.

Orr said one of the girls doesn't believe Rhynes should have been charged and takes full responsibility for what happened. The other, however, said in a victim impact statement that she now realizes she "was taken advantage of."

"I feel people look at me differently. I'm not sweet, innocent anymore."

Testimony showed that the girls would arrange meetings, or 'hook up,' through Internet chat rooms and that people would meet at parties, friends' houses and in church parking lots.

The girls consented to the activity and Rhynes claims he was told by friends that they were over 14.

A longtime friend of Rhynes' said the sentence was far too severe and that he should never have been charged. His career has already suffered, he said, since he lost the scholarship to the Florida college.

"He made a mistake," said Brian Lewis, who used to train Rhynes. "He's a great kid. He's sorry, but he knows he didn't commit a crime."

The sordid tale has divided the area, with some blaming the girls and others seeing Rhynes as a predator of young, vulnerable youth trying to gain acceptance by way of an elite athlete.

One girl has endured rebukes at school and in the community for bringing the case to light and exposing disturbing revelations of routine sex acts by girls on the verge of adolescence.

"I'm angry that there's been so much community outlash toward the victims instead of the perpetrators," said the girl's aunt.

Mitchell said he would consider appealing the sentence and has already appealed the conviction. He was trying to have Rhynes released for Christmas.

© Copyright 2003 The Canadian Press


Now, here's what I think:

You write a story about grown men kidnapping and raping a young girl, okay.
But what if that young girl is your sister?
Or your daughter?

[sirthumper]

Hey Woodman'sgame,

Thanks for your concern about the description of my victim. I understand where you're coming from. Hopefully, this'll clarify why I chose that description of the girl.

A few years back, I was a pretty good college athlete and a University champ in Olympic weightlifting. (However, I was in the 147 lb. class, so the totals I achieved were nothing spectacular.)

ANYWAY, at the facility where I trained, I had the good fortune to train with many members of the University's women's gymnastic team. Let me tell you, those girls are FIT!! And so petite; positively adorable, and so strong, too!

Many of the girls were still quite small, despite their ages (17-22, generally). Several were a shade under 5'0" and under 100 lbs. too boot. Still, despite the size, they were stronger than most women 2X their size. Awesome.

Ya see, I've always had this thing for dainty female athletes. Their muscle tone is awesome. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that attraction in the details of my story idea. Thanks for calling me to task for being vague.

I simply made the girl in my story a wee bit tinier than the college gymnasts to account for her being a tad younger. That's all.

So ya see, my victim is a girl around 16, preferably petite, and hopefully a gymnast or cheerleader. Shame on me for not being more precise in the details! :)

That's all folks!

Sirthumper

[Curtis]

I'm probably gonna be sorry, but here goes.

I think Xue Lan's news story is an excellant one, because it demonstrates clearly the ambiguities that can crop up in situations like this. As I read it, it shows clearly that this ball player was the victim of two sexual predators. They professed to be of age, they approached him in a chat room, he made an attempt to verify their age -- I don't know what more could be expected of him.

Back when I was in my early twenties, I was at a party for company employees and their children. A pair of sisters at the party were coming on to anyone in long pants, and we spent some time together, getting friendly. Near the end of the party, their Mother approached me and asked, with a funny look on her face, how old I thought her daughters were? That was the first moment the alarm bells went off. I replied that I thought they were 17 and 18. She nodded, then informed me that they were 12 and 14 and would I please stop bothering them? Bothering THEM? THEY were bothering ME! And the worst part was that the 12 year old was the one I thought was 18. It never would have occured to me to try to verify their ages, because there was no doubt in my mind. (I still have nightmares where I'm being chased through the house where the party was held, by the mother carrying a gun.)

I have a female cousin who, when she was 12, used to go to parties at frat houses and do lines of coke. What was she doing in exchange for the cocaine? (Actually, it may not have been sex -- when she was 17, she was arrested for breaking into 150 cars over a weekend and stealing stereo systems.)

Of course, I'm not trying to say that all nubile femmes are predators, and Sirthumper's story is specifically about an innocent. On the other hand, my stories are all about real life people, while his story idea is FICTION.

If you're going to tell stories about women being raped and abused (as I know some of you have), how is it qualitatively different if the victim is 13 instead of 33? To mis-quote Xue Lan: What if that woman is your mother? What if she's your older sister? Rape is rape and, except for the increased chance of injury, it doesn't matter if the victim is 3 or 93, male or female. One rape is all rapes.

Now, it's wonderful that such an extended discussion has developed over Sirthumper's story idea, but this is the Story Ideas subsection of the Forum and I think he has sufficiently clairified his original precis, so we all know just what he had in mind. If anyone is interested in writing a story based on his idea, fine; if not, I'm sure there's another subsection more appropriate for this discussion to continue.

Merry Christmas

(P.S.: The other thread on this subject is much shorter. It's in the Comments and Suggestions subsection and is entitled 'Couple comments regarding BDSM Library'.)

[woodsman'sgame]

I want to clarify that age and size were not the only criteria I used. I also mentioned the victim's state of mind. Innocence of sexual knowledge is the biggest criteria! That is a child. A 25 year old retarded woman who is innocent of sexual knowledge would fall in this category also, no matter what her physical appearance. That is the biggest factor that makes the victim a child.

And yes, Curtis, you are right. We did get off the subject, but stories that involve underage characters always seem to hit a nerve for most of us and are in a category that the library will not tolerate.

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Xue Lan
Now, here's what I think:

You write a story about grown men kidnapping and raping a young girl, okay.
But what if that young girl is your sister?
Or your daughter?

Or you write a story about a car that comes to life and kills teenage boys. What if one of those boys was your brother? Your son?

Fiction. Isn't it great?

Kallie

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Aurelius
I normally try to keep out of discussion/argument threads, but I have an important question:

Is having sex with children, or abusing them considered to be a sub-category of BDSM activity?

(Personally I don't think so.)

I don't think it necessarily is, either--but is rape? I think that if rape is considered a sub-category, then the age of the victim in works of fiction involving rape should likely be left up to the author. If rape is not a legitimate subject to be written about on this site, an awful lot of stories don't belong here.

Of course, at this point, we're still not sure what consitutes a child. I think we all agree that if it toddles (and isn't drunk), it's not okay. But a 14 year old to many is a sexual creature, fair game for works of fiction. But for others, 14 is a babe, and not to be messed with, even in the confines of a story.

I think the best policy is one I've always employed--if I don't like it, I don't read it. There is a lot of material here that I find personally distasteful. I would never dog the author or ask that the particular genre be removed from the site (not saying you did that, only that it occurs on occasion), but I do exercise my right to not partake.

Personally, I think it's a good way to live online. After all, we are talking about stories, not children.

Kallie

[Aurelius]

Kallie. I share your live and let live viewpoint. And yes, real-life rape is at least as bad as (or possibly far worse than) consensual or coerced sexual activity with 'the underaged'.

I think that the concept of rape fantasy is strongly established facet in BDSM fiction, and is often inseparable from bondage fantasies.

I've occasionally run into underage stories on this site. The difference with the content of underaged stories (not necessarily sirthumper's nicely clarified example) is that the essence of the child's body and mind provides the primary object of the fantasy.


Kallie: I would never dog the author or ask that the particular genre be removed from the siteAgreed. It's not my site. But if this site ever became a recognised place for posting and reading underage sex stories, I'd be out of here.

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by Aurelius
Agreed. It's not my site. But if this site ever became a recognised place for posting and reading underage sex stories, I'd be out of here.


Great point.
There is a difference between BDSM amongst adults and
paedophilia.

[sirthumper]

Oh lordy, How I do love a healthy debate! :)

This is awesome that my story idea has generated so much spirited conversation. (Really, I do think so.) It has shown me a side of people that I find quite revealing. Most significantly, that a lot of people must have a bit of trouble recognizing a difference between fiction and reality.

As a writer of fiction, I have authored several stories involving widely diverse characters. Some are abused wives, children living in abusive homes, the indigent, and people who just can't seem to get their lives in order. The key ingredient of a good story is "conflict," and stories in which something prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal makes the story worth reading.

In my life, I'd venture to say I've read thousands of stories. In some of these stories, usually classed in the "horror" section of Barnes and Noble, there were graphic depictions of death, sexual abuse, and other depictions of violence. Yet, never once, did I mistakingly think that those depictions were literal preoccupations of the author. For example, I NEVER thought that just because Robert Bloch penned PSYCHO he must automatically have been a mother-fixated murderer - it never crossed my mind! :)

Yet, there seem to be a few - just a few! - people in this forum who genuinely believe that authors live out their literary fantasies! Wow! How bizarre! Granted, I admit, I enjoy a well-authored rape story now and then...but at soon as I finish the tale and my netsurfing, I usually simply turn off the computer and either go to work, go to bed, exercise, or read and write. I certainly don't slobber and drool and immediately start plotting and planning how to live-out the details of the story.

Puh-lease!!!!!!!!!!!!

For those people in this forum who have trouble recognizing the difference between fiction and fact - fantasy and reality - I'd stop reading ANY bdsm tales. As a matter of fact, I'd stop reading alltogether. The last thing this world needs is one more sicko like the deranged chump who read S. King's RAGE and then shot his teacher and held his class hostage.

If my story idea bothers you, dont write it. And if the topic gives you the willies, then don't read it.

My story idea remains this: a group of guys decide to kidnap and torment a teenaged girl. I hope the tale has a decent build-up, and displays exceptional literary skill. I'm hoping for something good, but I'll always appreciate the effort of any honest attempt.

And just to let you know: I have never penned an actual rape story. Despite the fact I've read maybe a dozen well-written rape stories in my life, I've never really had the desire to write one myself. I can think of maybe one or two similiar story ideas, but that's about all. Go figure.

Sirthumper

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by sirthumper
Oh lordy, How I do love a healthy debate! :)


As a writer of fiction, I have authored several stories involving widely diverse characters. Some are abused wives, children living in abusive homes, the indigent, and people who just can't seem to get their lives in order. The key ingredient of a good story is "conflict," and stories in which something prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal makes the story worth reading.



That was my point exactly. It's very easy to tell when a person is a writer from the very synopsis they write.
Therefore, you don't really need someone to write it for you do you?
And I'll even go further to say that your post was not even necessary. Your a writer, that was your idea, what did you need a survey of who would like it or who would not? The bottom line was you could have submitted it anyway.

You said it yourself, 'As a writer of fiction', then if we follow on these lines you could have penned your story yourself, you could have lodged it into the stories section, it would have been appropriately CODED, and then whoever wanted to read it could have read it.. so what's stopping you write it then?.. yes..I like to ask these types of questions, only to see what answer is forthcoming.

As for conflict Sirthumper? I hardly doubt that an 'innocent' 13 year old, who is portrayed as innocent and vulnerable poses as a 'conflict', it's rather like 'no contest' when a girl that age is pitted against 8-12 guys that want to gang rape her.

What are you going to have 'intellectual' depth with a 13 year old and 8-12 men, in order to have the 'conflict' ? As for the 'worth reading?' element? Oh please.

[fetish101]

How hard is it to just stop reading as soon as you see the words young girl? I mean, what your saying is, we should code all posts because someone, somewhere will be offended. I really think you need to find another forum to voice your opinions on other people's FANTASY than a bdsm one..

And even if they are coded, the moment you see the code "young" at the top, by default you will already be thinking about the subject regardless.

[Cleo671]

BDSM Library Revised Code of Conduct



Members may not violate any local, state, national or international law or regulation. This includes any state, local, national or international copyright laws, laws against child pornography and laws governing the submission or publication of previously publicized materials. No member may post copyrighted images, articles or texts, in whole or in part, without the express written consent of the original author or owner. Similarly, no member’s submissions, photographic or text, to this site or its forums may be reproduced outside of this site without the express written consent of the content’s original author or owner.


it's in the revised code..
so as a minor is a child and a child is a minor..well?

so yeah..

Geez..I like debates..

:D

[sirthumper]

Ugh!

Cleo, you're not paying attention. :)

First of all, I never stated that I had an interest in any character as young as 13. I even went and made a subsequent post and placed the age of the victim at 16. Since I changed this particular character detail myself - changing the generality of "8th and 9th" grade", to the specific age of "16" - please don't continue an arguement based on information that I already altered. It's tiresome.

Secondy, I never requested any "survey." The subject of this particular forum is "story ideas," and I simply posted an idea for aspiring writers who may be suffereing from a "block" regarding potential story topics. That's all, nothing more.

And finally, I mentioned in my previous post that while I am a writer, I simply don't have the desire to write the story myself. That's why I posted my idea in this forum, to see if any good man or woman wants to give my idea a try. I love reading other people's work. I love creativity, and the thrill of discovering what some other person does with an idea of mine. It's that sense of discovery that makes reading such a joyful esperience.

Take care everybody and have a Great Christmas.

p.s. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how this post would've played-out if I made the victim 18? It's fascinating that some individuals would find 16 offensive, yet gleefully encourage the depiction of the abuse of a girl a mere two years older. Hmmm, interesting.

[Xue Lan]

You misunderstand me, or maybe I misunderstand you

There is big difference between a car coming to life (Steven King story) and what SirThumper has described first with girl so young(child porn).

What I want to say is: before writing about kidnapping a young girl, and gangraping her in a planned thought out way, think about it.

Why you writing about A CHILD?
Why you have a gang of grown men do this?

There many fiction stories, novels, about child abuse and rape, I know this. I send you a list of names if you like. Many by child psychologists and workers, and they are fiction,

But they not written to excited sexually.

SirThumper story is. That is different.

Sure it is fiction, you say. Ya,
But it happens too.
In real life.

And CHILDREN suffer for it. Forever.

You think that is good thing?

Think about it. That's all.

[Xue Lan]

Here is what you say in first post:

"Then, I'd have the men start prowling for a victim. They could visit places like the local malls, junior high volleyball games, local waterparks, etc. until they decide on a suitable candidate. I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs., but a bit larger is okay too."

Later you change mind, ya? Sixteen not 12? Female aathlete like you dream about - why not write about that instead, she be 21, and athlete.

You say junior high.

That why I say "think about it". Look at who you describe - that is a very young girl, ya?

What age is too young?
If you talking sex, look at laws. That be your guide.

If you talking rape, I say "anyone under 150 years not carrying loaded shotgun"

[sirthumper]

Interesting...

Be sure to keep this in mind: ALL fiction is meant to "entertain" the reader. I know of no fiction that is intended to make the reader feel miserable. Granted, there may be moments in a story that make the reader squirm or cringe, but those emotions are usually tolerated due to the belief that the characters or situations that cause the misery will be overcome in the end.

My tale is simply one that doesn't end happily. Believe it or not, my story isn't the first to have that sort of outcome. Man, I'm just glad I didn't request a "snuff" tale. Imagine the sort of debate we'd be having then! Luckily for me, snuff doesn't "trip my trigger." (is that a pun? Hmmm)

If you want to tack-on a cheerful ending to my tale, be my guest. If you want to add a few years to the victim, be my guest.

Just don't write anything unless you're willing to put for a good effort, and have a good grasp of the English language.

Bad writing sucks. :)

And "yes," you're right: rape is a crime. (I'm glad to see you have a firm grasp on The Law.) Just keep in mind that this is a STORY we're talking about here. You're having trouble seeing the difference between a fictional tale and an unlawful criminal act perpetrated against a real person.

Also: believe it or not, not all people read the exact same sort of stories. I hope that doesn't come as a surprise.

Sorry if I sound sarcastic; it's just depressing when I have to explain obvious facts to (presumably) adults that should be able to grasp the diffrence between fantasy and reality.

Once again: Happy Holidays!!

[sirthumper]

Brainstorm!!!

I just had another story idea:

An adult woman has consensual sex with an adult man. While "doing it," they decide to engage in a little bondage, nibbling, and spanking!

Woohoo! What an idea! I can't wait to see how this one turns out! I don't think this kind of story has EVER been written before!

;)

Sirthumper

p.s. I apologize to all dentists and dental hygienists (sp?) who may be offended by the mention of overbites, poor dental hygiene, and even chapped lips in the depiction of the "nibbling" in the above mentioned STORY.

[GaryWilcox]

Originally posted by sirthumper
An adult woman has consensual sex with an adult man. While "doing it," they decide to engage in a little bondage, nibbling, and spanking!
Woohoo! What an idea! I can't wait to see how this one turns out! I don't think this kind of story has EVER been written before!


BEFORE FLAMES BEGIN:

The above idea meets our community standards. Child porn doesn't. Let me clarify the rules so everyone knows what's what.


Originally posted by sirthumper
Then, I'd have the men start prowling for a victim. They could visit places like the local malls, junior high volleyball games, local waterparks, etc. until they decide on a suitable candidate. I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs., but a bit larger is okay too.

In North America, the girls you mention here are between the ages of twelve and fourteen. I'll check, but I believe that the law defines children at 13. I am quite certain that Jinn doesn't want any younger than fourteen-- any authors here that have had a story rejected by Jinn for that reason, feel free to tell us what the cut-off was.

Now, in state of anarchy, the SUGGESTION of child rape doesn't really draw a second glance. But this is a BDSM community. While rape and other nonconsensual acts are a part of fantasies, the Site Administrator, Jinn, has determine that he doesn't want child porn associated with this site. I won't pontificate on the evils of child porn. I will point out that politicians love to pontificate on such evils, and often build constituencies on people's reactions to discovering that child porn is somehow a part of their community. I wil further point out that Jinn wants to host a site, not get into a contracted legal battle to defend first ammendment rights.

I don't think you're an evil man for wanting to see young girls raped in the context of a story, sirthumper. I think there are ways to accomodate your story on BDSM Library without going someplace that the forum doesn't really want to go.

This community is meant to be a place where open discussion is okay, provided we respect each other and keep our tempers checked. We should empathize with each other, try to see each other's point of view, and try to help each other find our way now and then. There really isn't any need for us to compete or attack one another.

No one has yet contacted me as Moderator regarding this thread, so I'm assuming we all actually want to talk about it... If you don't have a helpful suggestion for sirthumper about writing this sexual fantasy of his, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not respond further in this thread, and leave it to others who want to contribute.

As I suggested previously, a character with a 'girlish' body still meets the standards. (And defies the constant string of large breasted /f characters in most of our fiction!)

Cleo suggested that you seem like someone who has a talent for writing. Why not write this yourself? Writer's Block? Lazy, like me? ;)

If you don't feel creative enough, I will help. But I wil certainly draw the line at the planning of the kidnap. I don't want to participate in anything that feels like a 'blueprint'. No offense-- I'm just a little touchy there-- and I hope you'll understand that.

Sound like a plan, sirthumper?

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
BDSM Library Revised Code of Conduct



Members may not violate any local, state, national or international law or regulation. This includes any state, local, national or international copyright laws, laws against child pornography and laws governing the submission or publication of previously publicized materials. No member may post copyrighted images, articles or texts, in whole or in part, without the express written consent of the original author or owner. Similarly, no member’s submissions, photographic or text, to this site or its forums may be reproduced outside of this site without the express written consent of the content’s original author or owner.


it's in the revised code..
so as a minor is a child and a child is a minor..well?

so yeah..

Geez..I like debates..

:D

Ahh, so pretty much every story on the site is in violation of the site's code of conduct. Sorry, hon--if that's going to be your NEW argument, I'm afraid you'll find that most of the stories on this site violate someone's laws. See, the pertinent phrase there is "Members may not violate any local, state, national or international law or regulation." Likely almost every story here violates SOME state's or country's laws.

Poor argument, sorry.

Merry Christmas, all!

Kallie

[GaryWilcox]

If you don't have a helpful suggestion for sirthumper about writing this sexual fantasy of his, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not respond further in this thread, and leave it to others who want to contribute.

Kallie doesn't have PM or mail, and posted right after I did, so she probably didn't see this. I will edit out any further debate. Please stick to assisting sirthumper or move on, please. Thanks!

1 post deleted. Author could not be contacted. Created a new thread for this debate! Click here to go to the new thread, RAPE & YOUNG GIRLS, in Comments & Suggestions. (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10682#post10682)

[woodsman'sgame]

Sir Thumper,

You are right in stating that your story is nothing but fiction. I never viewed it in any other way. I certainly have no right to criticize anyone for writing a rape fantasy as I am writing one myself. The original problem was with having the victim as an underage character, which is not allowed in the library. The problem has been corrected, so I feel that your story would be one that many would enjoy as sheer fantasy. I never thought that you would actually want to carry out that fantasy. My objection came from the ban on underage stories that the library has imposed if for no other reason than to comply with current laws on child pornography. As far as I am concerned, that was the only reason for debate in the first place. I would encourage you to write your story with the modification that you made.

[sirthumper]

I hope you all had a Great Christmas!

And thanks for writing in this forum, regarding the story idea I had.

I'm glad we had this little banter back 'n' forth, but as you can see, very little was accomplished. Everyone pretty much still believes exactly what they believed when I posted my story idea.

Hmmm, maybe next time we can debate whether God really exists. Ha!

Take care, and keep writing.

Sirthumper

P.s. if any of you want to respond to me personally - especially if you want to write my story - email me at bluethumper2002@yahoo.com. Ta ta, y'all!

[Hawke]

So...

Did this story ever actually get written? Not trying to beat a dead horse or anything, I'm just curious if anyone ever got around to writing it.

[emmacd]

So...

Did this story ever actually get written? Not trying to beat a dead horse or anything, I'm just curious if anyone ever got around to writing it.
I am loaded with storues that can be developed by a good writer with imagination. Where my ideas are based on experiences, I know they can be enlarged into possible a good story or that more than one experience might develope into many chapters. Emmacdcd@hotmail.com

[ProjectEuropa]

So...

Did this story ever actually get written? Not trying to beat a dead horse or anything, I'm just curious if anyone ever got around to writing it.

It couldn't have taken very long to write if it was ever written as the synopsis was pretty threadbare. Controversial but threadbare.

It threw up some interesting questions about censorship though. I'm against all censorship so I guess I can't suddenly change my mind because I find the idea of raping an underage girl extremely distasteful, well any rape come to that but I have to accept just what this forum is about and rape fantasies are part of the scene. (strange how other people's rape fantasies are always more distasteful than ones own!) Hmm...from the synopsis I wouldn't read the story anyway so the point about censorship I was going to make seems irrelevent and as far as I'm concerned the synopsis was a dead horse to start with.

[Ranai]

strange how other people's rape fantasies are always more distasteful than ones own
LOL! – ProjectEuropa, this is one of the funniest footnotes to 'Your kink is not my kink' I have ever read. Thank you! :)

Yeah, ain't that the truth. I find own my rape fantasies – no girls involved – perfectly tasteful. I like them as fantasies, as fiction, imaginary crimes with imaginary characters.

[Hawke]

Okay, because we're talking about underage stuff in here anyway, and I don't want to start a new thread, I'm curious (AND READ ALL OF THIS POST, not just my question, because the disclaimer is pretty important). If you have, say, a seventeen-year-old girl tied up and stuff on a website, but she is in no way nude, is it legal? Like, say a bikini. She's tied up and stuff in a bikini, and there's no other sexually implicit aspects of the pictures.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to start another debate. I'm asking because I'm curious. I don't plan on starting a website oriented around the aforementioned, nor do I know anyone planning on starting a website of that nature. Like I said before, I'm ONLY asking because I am curious. And by the way, I'm not trying to come across like a jerk with this little disclaimer--I just don't want someone to misinterpret me, so I figured I'd explain myself before I got yelled at.

[ProjectEuropa]

Okay, because we're talking about underage stuff in here anyway, and I don't want to start a new thread, I'm curious (AND READ ALL OF THIS POST, not just my question, because the disclaimer is pretty important). If you have, say, a seventeen-year-old girl tied up and stuff on a website, but she is in no way nude, is it legal?

This is going to depend on which country you are in. A 17 year old is a minor in some countries and not in others. I think in the US (correct me if I'm wrong) a 17 year old would be a minor but in much of Europe it would not be illegal. Much of Europe has a sexual consent age of 16. Though this is a general rule because for certain sexual acts that age can vary. I know in Holland and Britain sex under the age of 16 is not criminalised if the age between both parties is within a couple of years such as a 16 year old boy and a 14 year old girl, though I think in both countries there is judicial discretion. But I think your scenario would be legal.

[Alex Bragi]

Hawke,

It's very difficult really to determine at what age someone is capable of deciding how sexual, or otherwise, they want to be at the present. Some individuals mature physically and/or mentally so much earlier than others.

I think what you're trying to ask here is - is it kiddy porn? Well, if she's 'tied up and stuff' in such a way to be considered titillating, then I'd say it is, if she's not, then I'd say it isn’t. Whether, or not, she’s been depicted in a sexual manner of course would always be a grey area of censorship.

By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed.

But I digress. It’s all a bit hard really isn’t it? I mean what’s sexual to one person may not be to another. A friend of mine confessed to me once that he finds nothing more sexually exciting than a woman wearing brogues. No, spiky heeled stilettos for him, no, big heavy black or brown brogues. Go figure. So, we can really only determine these things in very general terms.

[GaryWilcox]

By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed. Have you ever seen Léon aka The Professional? Basically, Writer/Director Luc Besson admits he has a thing for very, very young girls, twelve or thirteen. In real life, he had a girlfriend at the time who was maybe fifteen when it was shot... Maiwenn... and Léon is on many levels a love letter to her. Interestingly enough, Maiwenn appears in the behind the scenes documentary about how the film was made (she is the prostitute in the opening 5 minutes) in the recent DVD rerelease.

But it isn't illicit... and young Natalie Portman (this was her first film) doesn't appear nude. The most scandalous moments are, Matilda appears dressed up as Madonna, puts on a dress for Léon's pleasure, and gets drunk in a restaurant and demands that Léon kiss her.

It's also one of my favorite love stories. While I love it, I'm not sexually attracted to young girls, and I don't condone Luc Besson's behavior... but I think he makes an excellent case for the relationship between Matilda and Léon (if not Maiwenn and Luc). They have an affair of the heart.

For this reason, I don't want the idea of child porn banned... I just want actual child porn banned.
:Porn: Including 'soft' child porn, like "(Baby) One More Time". :slave4u:

[Jadetiger]

Hawke,
By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed.


I whole hearty agree. :woman:

So now for a reality check. Having children depleted as sex objects, to be used and abused is not my cup of tea. If it is fiction I can deal with it. I may not like it but I can deal. Of course I would not read a story like that anyway. So as long as you are not breaking laws or rules where you post then write what is in your head.

[ProjectEuropa]

Alex, Gary, Jade. To be fair to Hawke, he asked about a seventeen year old woman. While a seventeen year old woman seems like a minor to me who is 50, in Britain a seventeen year old woman can get married, have sex and die for her country, though for some reason she is not old enough to vote. I think I am right is saying in just about all European countries a 17 year old can have sex quite freely if she desires so I can't imagine Hawke's scenario is illegal, at least in Europe.

Different countries have different laws about the internet but I think this can only be for downloaded material and not material viewed online. While the US might view 17 year olds as minors, I don't see what the US can do about what is legal in other countries and vice versa. So I would imagine if Hawke uploaded material from a country where it is legal for a seventeen year old to freely participate in such scenario, he would be acting legally.

[Hawke]

Yes, I'm in the United States. And no, I don't mean kiddie porn, per se; except through the eyes of the law. I have no interest in little girls, I'm simply curious about the laws regarding seventeen year olds.

And keep in mind, I'm not referring to explicit sexual acts in this scenario. I was thinking more along the lines of "girl tied up, scantilly clad but not revealing anything considered sexual, in a manner which would arose those who found such material arousing". You see, I'm asking because it's debatable. On the one hand, it could be considered illegal, because she's under the age of 18, and in a situation which is generally considered to be Mature, by law. On the other hand, the pictures featuring her depict no sexual acts, be it willing or otherwise, nor do they depict any part of her body that is considered sexual. Thus, in this second argument, you could bring up the point that the pictures aren't mature in nature at all. Once I started thinking about these, and each of the arguments one could use to press their point, I began to wonder what the actual law was.

It's amazing what you'll think of when it's four in the morning and you can't get to sleep.

[prey4me]

This thread has been going on for quite a while, and it's been several months since somebody decided to post. All the same, as a newcomer, I would like to weigh in.

What is intriguing, and complicating, is that with the internet we are now a world community: the ideas and norms of one country are juxtaposed to the tastes and standards of others in different regions and cultures. So we have the Dutch euthenizing their elderly, but that is anathema in Alabama. And if spanking a child is discipline in Montana, it's erotic in England, and a crime in Sweeden. Complicated, huh?

So it's no surprise that sex/kindky sex/violent sex/teenage sex is going to be complicated! And Kallie is right: one person's "personal fetish" is another person's "dangerous, illegal perversion," and vice-versa!

It comes down to: the webmaster makes the rules and enforces the rules. It's his butt that will be hung out to dry, depending on where he is located.

Now, some thoughts for Sirthumper. I kind of like your scenario, because nc sex with early-to-mid teens is a fantasy many of us share. For starters, it's awfully trite to "have them case her place." I'd look for a fresher way to move this plot. Face it: middle-aged guys hanging around some girl's home, however surepticiously, are going to get noticed by somebody, who will call the cops for an I.D. check, at the very least.

Anyway, here's some ideas for making your story--if you write it yourself--more acceptable. Consider posting it on other sites. asstr.org and mrdoubles.com come to mind. "mrdoubles" has LOTS of pre-teen and young-teen stories, most of them involving incest, but lots of them don't. And quite a few are non-consensual.

Another is to put the girl a bit older to conform to bdsmlibrary's standards, but make her very innocent and virginal. Perhaps she was brought up in a boarding convent school. Or very protected by zealously religious parents. How about making her an athlete, a ballet student, or something, who has never had a social life to speak of, busy as she's been?

Two other ideas to make your idea work for a 17-18 year old innocent and pure victim: she was carefully protected by a guardian who wanted to "save her for himself" upon attaining her "maturity," or, is mildly retarded: an 18-year-old with the mind of a 12-year-old.*

So, there's an idea for you to work with!

*I must point out that in the eyes of most American states' law, sex with a mentally disabled person is also considered "statutory rape."

["Roof"]

This is just an idea for a story that I thought of...

The story starts with a network of men, all older guys (40s and 50s), who band together solely for the purpose of kidnapping and raping a young girl. I'd make The Network consist of, say, 8-12 guys.

The early part of the tale should focus on their preparations, i.e. outfitting a small house outside of town with all the necessary "equipment". I imagine one guy in the Network should be wealthy - to afford the house - or maybe all the guys could pitch-in to buy the place and stuff they'll need.

Then, I'd have the men start prowling for a victim. They could visit places like the local malls, junior high volleyball games, local waterparks, etc. until they decide on a suitable candidate. I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs., but a bit larger is okay too.

Once they get a prospect, then they have to abduct her. I'd have the men stake-out her house, maybe even stalking her and keeping tabs on her with video and sound survielance equipment. They should keep her under constant watch until one weekend, when her parents are gone shopping, and the girl is home alone, they decide to strike. Her abduction could take place as she sunbathes in her backyard (her parents live in a secluded unscale home). I'd have her facedown on a blanket, wearing a flimsy bikini, as the 4 men approach. All the men should be wearing masks of some sort. Either ski masks or pantyhose.

It's up to you if you want the men to rape the girl then and there in her backyard, or wait until they carry her back to the van, or even wait until they get back to the house. Or all three! Either way, I'd have the men leave behind a type-written "runaway" note, to throw off her parents and cops.

Once they get back to the house, do whatever you want with her, but no disfiguring torture or snuff. Personally, I don't go for that.

Still, after weeks or humiliation, abuse, and near-constant rape, the men make some contacts over the Internet and successfully sell the young girl to an overseas contact. The story ends with the tiny teenager being packed into a crate (with airholes!) and shipped overseas, where she disappears forever into the shadowy world of N. African harems and white slavery. Never to be seen again!

Yikes!

Uh, anyway, I hope this idea inspires somebody. Thanks for your time. :)


Very good theme!!! I'd like to read several stories (or multi-episodes) of this line. Make the coed/female yuppie snob take more-than-enough savage punishment * as will break her spirit of resistance so that she's willing to service any prick shoved at her... regardless of the public sexual humiliation that's deliberately given her. Degrade her by forcing her to sabotage her prior reputation as the campus/office inhibited cock-teasing bitch. She can be ordered to publically offer a randomly selected guy a blowjob or fuck in full view of witnesses. Or she can be set-up for unexpected prick shoved at her and she has to satisfy him OR ELSE.

Roof

* Harshly mash her tits in a press, shock them.

[prey4me]

The kidnapped coed is a durable fantasy. Consider going back to around 1964 (or so), the movie, The Collector where a windfall-rich Terrence Stamp kidnaps Samatha Eggar (OOOOooooo!!). He didn't rape her--she does seduce him, once, hoping to gain her freedom. His interest was just fascination with a beautiful young woman, which was a category of life he had little experience with.

If I re-wrote it, she's be raped and fucked up and down daily and nightly!

But to the subject at hand--if we're through the issue of young victims--I don't find Sir Thumper's opening scenario quite believable. First, how many guys are in this rape conspiracy? And they're going to share just one girl? No, either fewer guys, or more girls to fuck. Really.

And their following and tracking her? This many guys in the proximity of one girl would attract attention, no matter how sureptitious they try to be. She--or her family-would notice!

Better to reduce the conspiracy to a few guys. And to execute a successful kidnapping, I would say one has to have intense knowledge of either the victim, or the environment. I would say, come in from out-of-town, and study the community carefully:A streets, train and bus stops, schools, churches, etc. Get to know what kind of girls go where. Then you have to wait for just the right opportunity. Which should be combined with just the right girl.

And it would be damn tough, realistically, to get the two together. You might get a good abduction opportunity, but for a fat or ugly girl. Or you could get an attractive victim--but no safe opportunity!

See what I mean?

My fanasy? Hijack a freakin' school bus full of prep-school cuties, filled with the likes of Alexis Blendel from Gilbmore girls!! Now that's a girl I'd love to have in a nice, deep basement!!

(And don't expect me to share, either!)

["Roof"]

The kidnapped coed is a durable fantasy. Consider going back to around 1964 (or so), the movie, The Collector where a windfall-rich Terrence Stamp kidnaps Samatha Eggar (OOOOooooo!!). He didn't rape her--she does seduce him, once, hoping to gain her freedom. His interest was just fascination with a beautiful young woman, which was a category of life he had little experience with.

If I re-wrote it, she's be raped and fucked up and down daily and nightly!

But to the subject at hand--if we're through the issue of young victims--I don't find Sir Thumper's opening scenario quite believable. First, how many guys are in this rape conspiracy? And they're going to share just one girl? No, either fewer guys, or more girls to fuck. Really.

And their following and tracking her? This many guys in the proximity of one girl would attract attention, no matter how sureptitious they try to be. She--or her family-would notice!

Better to reduce the conspiracy to a few guys. And to execute a successful kidnapping, I would say one has to have intense knowledge of either the victim, or the environment. I would say, come in from out-of-town, and study the community carefully:A streets, train and bus stops, schools, churches, etc. Get to know what kind of girls go where. Then you have to wait for just the right opportunity. Which should be combined with just the right girl.

And it would be damn tough, realistically, to get the two together. You might get a good abduction opportunity, but for a fat or ugly girl. Or you could get an attractive victim--but no safe opportunity!

See what I mean?

My fanasy? Hijack a freakin' school bus full of prep-school cuties, filled with the likes of Alexis Blendel from Gilbmore girls!! Now that's a girl I'd love to have in a nice, deep basement!!

(And don't expect me to share, either!)


The part about a group stalking a chick, being more apt to be spotted is good point. I like the idea at the end of hijacking a school bus load of coeds---preferably cheerleaders. (Unfortunately the ones I knew were prigs as snobbish as their bodies were sexy). The said cheerleaders would be put into a dungeon environment and tortured eg suspended by their wrists, their tits whipped, shocked, mashed in a vise; into being the fucktoys they'd been too goody-goody to be until "persuaded". When their spirit of resistance is properly and effectively broken, humiliate them and force them to public sexual slavery to offset their prior "touch-me-not" reputations.

[prey4me]

You want prissy prim and proper teenage virgin girls? I drive by RC schools, and the girls (after class) look so slutty! All sorts of tights, stockings, and socks. Different styles of shoes. Shirt-tails pulled out. Where are they rape-able sweethearts of yesteryear?

You want to pursue this fantasy, I suggest that it be girls attending an Evangelical girls' academy or a schoolbus full of Mormon girls. Now these are girls who haven't been brainwashed into "sex is bad," morality. Rather, they've been emphatically taught to wait for marriage.

And they tend, as a population group, to be nice, middle-class or even up-scale chicks, and therefore nicely dressed, groomed, hair-styled, etc.

(And, for my fetish, more likely to be wearing pretty, dainty underwear....)

Something to think about!