What IS T.F.T.B.?

[ceegee{Benz}]

Just what does 'Topping from the bottom' mean?

This has long been a hotly debated subject within the BDSM communities; some think the idea genuinely offensive (usually Dom(me)s, others believe it to be a-okay.

The whole concept of T.F.T.B. seems to be a mass of confused description/expectations (just try doing a web-search on the subject!). Some people are 100% adamant that the whole thing revolves around the ability to 'Switch' (i.e., change from sub to Dom(me) either on command or as circumstance dictates). Is this what YOU think?

I've started the above poll just to see if there is a measure of agreement or disagreement on the subject, however it would be nice to read YOUR views on the subject - what you think constitutes Topping from the bottom.

[Guest 91108]

hrm don't see a poll. to me Bottom topping is a pushy sub.
not one who is helping by suggesting or sharing her opinions with me as long as they are needed, usually i like to have them.
I think it's more important from those who see that total control / power that some seek to have over their sub by the Dom/me.
shrugs

[ceegee{Benz}]

poll is up there now lol i screwed up

[Guest 91108]

none of those suit my idea on it.

[jeanne]

Okay, I have little BDSM experience but I do have an opinion which is worth what you paid for it! ;)

1. Being demanding in scene.
2. Scripting out every single moment of the scene in pre-scene discussion/negotiation.
3. Using the safeword to get your dom to move on to something you like better, rather than as it is intended.
4. Being derogatory about your dom's abilities in after-scene discussion/check-in.

These are just my ideas, based on a lot of research and reading in the last few weeks...I haven't had very much opportunity yet to put the non-use of these principles into practice yet, although I am working on the concept of shutting my mouth when I don't have something positive to say! :)

[ceegee{Benz}]

Well I started the post so heres what I think

A TRUE submissive acts on behalf of her Master or awaits her Master's commands.
One who tops from the bottom has pre conceived ideas.
In other words is more interested in getting her rocks off for enjoyment rather then serving or being pleasing for her Master.
This does not make it wrong just different strokes for different people.
I personally would call it kink not D/s and definatly not BDSM.

Just remember it is the Master who has the final say.

[Ultraprene]

The acceptability of any action really depends on the relationship between the participants. Some Dominants are more willing ot take advice from the sub. I suspect TFTB is more acceptable in a pro session where the sub is paying for the experience and therefore has some right to call the shots.

[gloombunny]

A code phrase popular among people who can't stand the idea that someone else isn't doing BDSM the same way as them.

[Beswitchingly Positive]

From a switch's point of view:

Not being a huge fan of checklists and announcing all of my kinks in advance, in my experience, topping from the bottom happens most often when during play, my partner is dominating and he is very close to doing something I like I will ask (not beg) nicely that he do that or this...I find it to be a good way to teach him what I like, and he does it back to me as well...

Maybe it is a switch thing, it seems a useful way to learn more about what your partner likes...giving my partner pleasure is extremely important to me, and if he wants to please me (and he does) I would be remiss in not topping from the bottom on occasion...not only does it let him know what I like, it reinforces that I am consenting.

In have been pleasantly surprised by some of his requests and I know he has had the same pleasure...it is part of unwraveling the unknown and can be fun for both!

I am not offended by the phrase, it is an accurate description of something that does happen.

[Beswitchingly Positive]

Well I started the post so heres what I think

A TRUE submissive acts on behalf of her Master or awaits her Master's commands.
One who tops from the bottom has pre conceived ideas.
In other words is more interested in getting her rocks off for enjoyment rather then serving or being pleasing for her Master.
This does not make it wrong just different strokes for different people.
I personally would call it kink not D/s and definatly not BDSM.

Just remember it is the Master who has the final say.


Perhaps a true master would be able to condition a submissive in the behavior patterns he desires...so that there would be no question about "the final say."

I never have a preconcieved idea that I will go tftb on him...it does not mean I do not want to please him...we definately have a bdsm relationship with D/s spice (not slavery, just nature) and the D/s roles do change back and forth...in my life, I have met few folks who were effectively dominant all the time...titles aside, honestly, unless there is abject submission, by your definition wouldn't any idea a "slave" has, (aside from what the Master allows) be topping from the bottom???

Seems boring to me. No challenge. I mean, is it truly satifying to have a submissive with no spirit of their own? But hey, I know that's just me.

How can you say it is not sm if someone tfb and still comes out nicely bruised?

[crikey_2004]

Well thank you ceegee for the thread! I had no idea it was a term, much less a hotly debated one, and I've just received a lot of insight based on the replies so far. It would seem to me that when my online sub makes a suggestion, I take it under advisement because the whole purpose is for both of us to enjoy ourselves. My sub likes to come from a position of reliance, so if she makes a request, it is up to me to decide if it'll be good for her or not. She accepts my choices even if I choose poorly, but that means she doesn't tftb, doesn't it? Or was the initial request her attempt at doing it?

[Rhabbi]

TFTB is what happens when a sub tries to get a new person in her life to be the Dom.

Actually, that is simplistic, but probably the most common example. Sometimes a sub wants to try something the Dom has never done, so advice and guidance is given.

[cariad]

My understanding of it is that the sub is being manipulative.

cariad

[crikey_2004]

I still like to think that it's part of the fun... the sub manipulating and the dom/me taking it... to a point, when it becomes necessary to curb such behavior... again.... :)

[cariad]

That is one of the things I love about this place - the opposite points of view on the same matter. Shows we are real people and not programmed robots.

Still don't fancy the idea of T'ing F T B - got me into big bad nasty trouble the last time I tried it.

cariad

[Sir_Russell]

Just my 2 cents on this.

I feel that topping from the bottom is more then suggestions and advice. When done with a bottom and a Top that are mearly scening it is the standard form. The bottom is the one in control and since that is only safe for a limited relationship.

I hope that you listen to your sub/slave and figure out what they need and give it to them but to let the sub/slave run things means it is just a sham.

[moptop]

None of the poll options on this suit me. My feeling is that there is a definite line between two people learning eachother, through discussion, suggestion, request, both during, before or after a scene: and a sub telling their D to do something. There is a slightly more difficult line where the sub might take the initiative. Is it wrong for a sub to initiate sex, to go down on a partner as a surprise gift (for example first thing in the morning when they're still a bit asleep with a nice mouthful of hot tea, just a thought, hmmm)? Is it wrong for a sub to show sudden passion, to grab or bite or leap on their partner at a random moment, say when in the middle of cooking etc.? Or isn't this just normal human relationship, which has to be wound in with the d/s one? How much of an element of fun, teasing, baiting, beguiling etc. is allowed from a sub, before it becomes 'too much' and they are leading? Probably just a balance that has to be worked out for each couple (or trio or whatever).

[mkemse]

Hope this answers the thread question

TFTB (or Tftb) = Topping from the bottom = the practice of a pyl using disingenious, manipulative tactics in order to get a PYL to do something the pyl desires. It is sometimes difficult to tell playful but bratty behavior from TFTB.

For example, if a sub wants a spanking, s/he may playfully cut up and tease the Dominant, trying to goad him into "spanking" them so they will "behave." But if topping from the bottom, the pyl will deliberate break rules, trying to anger the PYL into punishing them, rather than simply being open and honest and asking for a spanking

[cariad]

I cannot imagine being in a relationship where I was not free to contribute either ideas, initiatives, passion, emotion, or any other part of my personality. If I was to squash that then it would not be me the Dom was having a relationship with; and if taken to its logical conclusion, he might just as well be having a relationship with a puncture free blow up doll.

cariad

[cariad]

For example, if a sub wants a spanking, s/he may playfully cut up and tease the Dominant, trying to goad him into "spanking" them so they will "behave." But if topping from the bottom, the pyl will deliberate break rules, trying to anger the PYL into punishing them, rather than simply being open and honest and asking for a spanking

What is wrong with good old fashioned openness and simply telling the Dom that you would love to be spanked? Surely there does not need to be a 'reason' beyond that. To me that is just effective communication, misbehaving in order to goad the Dom, is in my book manipulation, and therefore tftb.

cariad

[Guest 91108]

I cannot imagine being in a relationship where I was not free to contribute either ideas, initiatives, passion, emotion, or any other part of my personality. If I was to squash that then it would not be me the Dom was having a relationship with; and if taken to its logical conclusion, he might just as well be having a relationship with a puncture free blow up doll.

cariad



What is wrong with good old fashioned openness and simply telling the Dom that you would love to be spanked? Surely there does not need to be a 'reason' beyond that. To me that is just effective communication, misbehaving in order to goad the Dom, is in my book manipulation, and therefore tftb.

cariad

I would say a relationship that doesn't have both of those is one I would not want.

especially the blow up doll. desparate, immature, lack of ability to acquire a sub .. disgusting.... :4:

[TomOfSweden]

I don't like people here attaching value to it. For me TFTB is simply a person who likes being humiliated/tortured etc but who doesn't like handing over control. There's no better or worse. I just see it as one more flavor in the BDSM scene.

I met a girl last Rubber ball who was a typical TFTB. She was a career girl and didn't have very much respect for men in general, (hard to argue with that one). This gave her exactly what she needed without her needing to stroke some insecure Masters ego. She could focus on herself, and her alone. If the guy didn't like it...well then he should move on. She was a super pain and humiliationslut, so it wasn't some Domme in denial.

We can all formulate theories on why a sub would prefer this. And if they even are subs? But I wouldn't assume it's down to fear of commitment. Rather about priorities in life.

[mkemse]

What is wrong with good old fashioned openness and simply telling the Dom that you would love to be spanked? Surely there does not need to be a 'reason' beyond that. To me that is just effective communication, misbehaving in order to goad the Dom, is in my book manipulation, and therefore tftb.

cariad

All I was doing was answering a question posed, I have no personal opinion on this one way or another

[gloombunny]

I don't like people here attaching value to it. For me TFTB is simply a person who likes being humiliated/tortured etc but who doesn't like handing over control. There's no better or worse. I just see it as one more flavor in the BDSM scene.

Thank you.

The name-calling and condescension towards people who don't follow the One True Way of BDSM gets to be a bit much around here, sometimes.

[Sir_Russell]

Hmmmm, NatalieD, you may be right but I have a problem that terms here seem to be flexible to the point of being meaningless. I agree that there has to be some wiggle room in terms that are used to describe different aspects of our life but they are usefull.

Tom is correct in his term with the case he stated but so would bottom be and neither would be exclusive to that person. topping from the bottom mearly means that the bottom is in control and for those that aren't into trusting enough to give up control but wish to experience some fantasy of being a submissive it is common practice.

To say that request or suggestions by a sub/slave is topping is absurd, that is different from do me my way. I have learned different techniques to please a lovely sub/slave and in doing what she needs I am still the one in control.

[vistana]

I see Topping fro the bottom as when the sub deliberately manipulates the top to get what she/he wants.
Not just making requests or having an opinion, but trying to make things go her way, instead of what the top intended.

Personally, I do it sometimes and it's a habit I'm trying very hard to break.
When I get away with it I end up feeling unhappy about it, since overall getting what I want isn't really what I want, but it's so easy to try and squirm my way out of something unpleasant. It's much better when he catches me and calls me on it.
It's different from playful brattiness, where we both know that I'm just being a tease to get a reaction and he may or may not indulge me.

*shrug* of course that doesn't apply anyone except me, that's just what TFTB is to me & my relationship.

[somewriter]

A code phrase popular among people who can't stand the idea that someone else isn't doing BDSM the same way as them.

Very accurate, I think. I would say that TFTB simply means that the sub is in control of what is going on, guiding events (either by planning beforehand or during the events).

The fact is, a lot of people who like some aspects of BDSM (and I don't think you have to like all of it to fall under the umbrella) will end up with a partner who is happy to participate while not being a big fan themselves. There's no shame in that - just the way life works out. So if I was a submissive and ended up with a partner who was happy to play dom but did not know what to do, I'd definitely be TFTB to begin with, and maybe even forever after. It would still be BDSM I think, just that the D/S aspect would be a little odd. Nothing wrong with being a little odd though :-)

But maybe I have a different idea to what BDSM encompasses than others:


...is more interested in getting her rocks off for enjoyment rather then serving or being pleasing for her Master...
I personally would call it kink not D/s and definatly not BDSM.

When I'm submissive, I enjoy being tied up, told what to do, maybe spanked in the process, having sex and getting pleasure out of all of it. I do it because I enjoy it, and ideally (but realistically, not necessarily) because my partner enjoys it. Do I therefore not fall into the BDSM category? Because: bondage, submission and masochism would seem to me to be BDSM.

[Flaming_Redhead]

I didn't see any choice in the poll that I consider to be the correct answer, so I will refrain from making a selection. However, I will share what I believe is the correct assessment of topping from the bottom which can be found in Wikipedia. I have been accused of being a bottom-topper, but in terms of being manipulative, it's more accurate to say I'm just a brat.


Tops and bottoms

In BDSM, a top is a partner who takes the role of giver in such acts as bondage, flogging, humiliation, or servitude. The top performs acts such as these upon the bottom, who is the person receiving for the duration of a scene. Although it is easy to assume that a top is dominant and a bottom is submissive, it is not necessarily so.

The top is sometimes the partner who is following instructions, i.e., he tops when, and in the manner, requested by the bottom. A person who applies sensation or control to a bottom, but does so at the bottom's explicit instruction is a service top. Contrast the service top with the pure dominant, who might give orders to a submissive, or otherwise employ physical or psychological techniques of control, but might instruct the submissive to perform the act on him or her.

The same goes for bottoms and submissives. At one end of the continuum is a submissive who enjoys taking orders from a dominant but does not receive any physical stimulation. At the other is a bottom who enjoys the intense physical and psychological stimulation but does not submit to the person delivering them. It should be noted that the bottom is most often the partner who is giving instructions — the top typically tops when, and in the manner, requested by the bottom. However, there is a purist school of BDSM, for whom such "topping from the bottom" is incompatible with the retention of high ethical standards in the relationships wherein BDSM is practised.

Within a sadomasochisic context, submissive is only roughly synonymous with bottom. Others opine that a "submissive" is specifically pursuing a dominant/submissive power-exchange as a key element, whereas a "bottom" may or may not be interested (or even willing) to engage in that exchange. For the latter, some have proposed the "pitcher" and "catcher" (borrowed from baseball terminology) as more neutral terminology, with the "pitcher" delivering the sensation, the instruction, etc; and the "catcher" receiving what is "pitched." These are in contrast to the term slave, which is a situation where the '"submissive" in a TPE or Total Power Exchange relationship gives up all control to their "dominant" not just for a "scene" but for a "24/7" continuing relationship.'

[Darkdreamz]

Unless you're in a no limits relationship, which in most cases probably isn't safe or sane even if it is consentual, then the bottom is always in control and always TFTB in reality!

D/s relationships are just illusions of control for the purposes of acting out bdsm fantasies. If the quality of the illusion is good, then it will seem like the dom is in control and all should be well. If the quality is poor, it will appear the sub is TFTB and the result probably won't be satisfying play time. The total illusion is the sum of the ability of the participants to play their roles according to the pre-determined rules and limitations of the game.

But having said that, once the rules are established, if the bottom tries to control when, what or how things happen within the confines of the limitations and rules already established they are TFTB. Whether or not you or your partner(s) can enjoy this or find this acceptable is a personal and subjective matter.

[TomOfSweden]

Unless you're in a no limits relationship, which in most cases probably isn't safe or sane even if it is consentual, then the bottom is always in control and always TFTB in reality!

D/s relationships are just illusions of control for the purposes of acting out bdsm fantasies. If the quality of the illusion is good, then it will seem like the dom is in control and all should be well. If the quality is poor, it will appear the sub is TFTB and the result probably won't be satisfying play time. The total illusion is the sum of the ability of the participants to play their roles according to the pre-determined rules and limitations of the game.

But having said that, once the rules are established, if the bottom tries to control when, what or how things happen within the confines of the limitations and rules already established they are TFTB. Whether or not you or your partner(s) can enjoy this or find this acceptable is a personal and subjective matter.

This is such a persistant myth it's annoying. I'm in a no limits relationship, which is safe, sane and consensual. We're even getting married in August, (I love you snugglemuffins). She is submissive for crying out loud. Me getting what I want is what she actually wants.

Just because I am a Dominant doesn't mean I push her limits all the time just because I can. Which I incidentaly don't. We are not "living out a fantasy" or "playing" and my life and life style and relationship is not an "illusion". If it should be labeled as such then all of life should arguably be as well.

[_ID_]

I agree with you tom.

Me being a Dominant is not a game. Me having a submissive is not a game. To me, having a Ds relationship isn't about the fantasy of hurting and tying up women. It's about the dynamic. It's about how I am treated by her, and how I treat her.

I have had this debate with more than one person. It stems from the SSC zealots. Not all BDSM falls into SSC. Some falls into RACK. Semantics you might say, but there is a difference between just Safe, and Risk Aware.