Abortion

[Alex Bragi]

I’m feeling like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, as I post this, but here it goes.

I think I’m fairly broadminded lady, but recently I was really taken back by a particular story. With Lex Ludites's permission, here are excerpts from his latest work - Tom and Joyce -the early days.


The sheer number of spurting cocks she was handling overwhelmed the birth control pills she took. Ever the idea man, Tom turned that to his advantage. First he made arrangements with the school's medical department to use Joyce as a subject when the med students were taught to perform abortions.

It got even better when one bastard to be somehow resisted the merciless assaults Joyce's cunt absorbed over the next few weeks. She now wore the words “Still Alive and Kicking” in lipstick on her stomach for all to see every morning when she attended classes.

I don't think fetal abortion is erotic or funny. Thankfully Lex assures me that none of his stories represent his views in real life. He just has a dark side, but how dark is too dark? The imagination is limitless, but how far is too far?

I recently saw the darker than dark comedy “Kill Bill’ and thoroughly enjoyed it, so maybe I’m just a fickle little bitch?

Sorry Lex, you write well, but I just couldn't get into this one.

[redEva]

I can see your point, Alex, and let me assure you – I do not find anything erotic, or in any other way amusing in as far as abortion is concerned.

But….

And I do know I’m opening another can of worms here, again, but how is abortion any different from snuff, amputation, cannibalism or underage characters. Personally I do not enjoy most of them, some I do, as well as I enjoy some other that many readers would not!

I suppose – what I am trying to say would be – if you (anyone) hit something that is not up to personal liking – skip the paragraph or hit little “x” button – always worked for me :)

P.S. – saw Kill Bill and I did liked it (I love Tarantino anyhow) but – wow, the classification as dark comedy – never came to mind – one thing I did not think it was – would be funny. Just goes to show we all have different perceptions of what appeals.

[Lord Douche]

Med Students are taught to perform abortions? Personally, I cannot understand how it could be seen as either erotic or amusing, and from what I can tell, it was intended to be the former.
I agree with redEva, if you don't like it, skip over it, go back in your browser, or close it.

As for Kill Bill, well, I saw only a little humour in it. Most of it left my mouth gaping in horror, but the fight scene at the end made me laugh, simply because it was so outrageous. How on earth could one person possibly defeat that many ninja's?! "Incompetence" comes to mind :)

[Alex Bragi]

Hello redEva and Lord Douche,

Yes, I did back click here at this particular point of Lex’s story, but do you think it’s the subject or the way it’s present that makes the difference? For instance, if this had been part of an erotic horror story, would someone like me (a pretty average kind of female reader) have been more accepting? I tend to think so, as much as anything, simply because although it’s a shock you’re half expecting it. Mmm… does that make sense?

[Curtis]

Okay, this is probably off-topic, but I'll give it a go.

Lex can write some pretty hot stuff, but he's got the 'let's push too far' thing down to a science. A story he's still adding chapters to started very well (and deserved the high ratings it got), but has now degenerated into a laundry list of near-death experiences. In the example you gave, what leaped out at me was the impossibility of it. Birth control pills keep an egg from being released from an ovary. It doesn't matter how much (many?) sperm she's subjected to, if there's no egg for them to attack, she's not getting pregnant. And as for a 'bastard' surviving several abortions...let's just say that Lex doesn't write stories that are set in my world.

Having said all of that, though, I believe that what was intended to be erotic in the quoted passage is the humiliation Joyce feels from being used as a repeated practice dummy and from attending class with the message written on her tummy. Lex's stories tend to focus on wiping away a woman's personality, usually through a combination of physical and psycological overload, repeated endlessly. I don't think the abortions were intended to be erotic, I think the effect of the abortions on Joyce was intended to be an element in a (hopefully) erotic assault.

Be nice to know what Lex thinks.

[MrJerseyGuy]

Three words for ya Alex..."Fiction, fiction fiction"

I'm the biggest pervert in the world and I find stuff here that offends me! When I do, I just click the little "x" in the corner and move on. It might not be for you and me...but there are some who will enjoy it. Kiddy stuff and scat totally offend me,...but the same freedom that lets those folks read and fantasize about it lets me read and fantasize about the things I enjoy. Who is to say which of us is right and wrong. I see stories containing abortion in the same light. Not my thing...but I'm sure it's somebody's!

Happy New Year to you!

[Jones, Nikka]

I have to agree with the way Curtis analyzes Lex's probable intention and with MrJerseyGuy when he reminds us that it is only fiction. Sometimes I wish the story codes were a little more detailed, as there are things that I do not even want to begin to read, yet I believe people should have the choice to read them if they find them to their taste.
And yes, it would be nice to hear from the author.

[lex ludite]

As I told Alex prior to her post, I did have some problems with the incorporation of abortion into this story, knowing that it is a definite hot button for many people. I also know that such issues as snuff, mutilation, scat and child abuse are also lightning rods for some readers. As a writer I reserve the right to use anything that makes sense to me in order to preserve the story's integrity. Naturally I also try to stay within the guidelines that a particular site has established. As far as I'm concerned, this issue has been addressed properly, and should be brought to a close.
Now to correct a few misconceptions that were recklessly thrown about during this discussion. Joyce's "passenger" never went through an abortion and survived! Whoever said that wasn't reading what I wrote. This annoys me to no end! Where do medical students learn to perform abortions, if not in medical school? My embellishment in this SPOOF was to add a student, Joyce, to the process. Finally let me add a few words concerning my story "True Love", which is now completed. You are so wrong it hurts! The first half of the story was my usual crash and burn, take no prisoners, approach to writing. I had some kind of epiphany at that point and was unable to continue the story because I knew how it had to end from the beginning, but didn't have the courage to write what had to be written in order to give the ending some meaning. All those terrible things that Beverly suffers in excruciating detail in the second half are necessary for the story to end properly. Obviously I did not telegraph the ending, and therefore am grateful and willing to take some misguided sniping from some critics. The next time you have a hot flash or some magical insight into my private world, remember the story of the blind men and the elephant.

[castle2001]

Lex, it's fiction of another nature.

I guess the snuff code could cover abortion. Is it not what it is?

Am I in trouble by voicing a non PC view?

[Curtis]

Not in trouble, just not right.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

[lex ludite]

In no case was the fetus ever carried longer than a couple of months. In fact the body modifications for Joyce would have initially required the abortion of a six month fetus, which was way too strong even for this writer. That's why I created another way to get the same results without facing this issue full tilt. Castle's suggestion does have some merit since there is no current category for abortion in the codes. Come to think of it that's kind of strange. I guess abortion is one issue that no one wants to step up to around here, so be it.

[Alex Bragi]

My kind friend and editor, Curtis, has informed me I misquoted part of Lex Ludite's story by not indicating the quotes were from separate parts. It should have read:

"The sheer number of spurting cocks she was handling overwhelmed the birth control pills she took. Ever the idea man, Tom turned that to his advantage. First he made arrangements with the school's medical department to use Joyce as a subject when the med students were taughtto perform abortions." ... (and, from a later paragraph) "It got even better when one bastard to be somehow resisted the merciless assaults Joyce's cunt absorbed over the next few weeks. She now wore the words “Still Alive and Kicking” in lipstick on her stomach for all to see every morning when she attended classes."

I apologise to Lex for my mistake, and regret any confusion or
misunderstanding this may have caused.

[lex ludite]

Apology accepted. I think this discussion has been educational for all those involved. It's time to move on to other matters such as writing and reviewing.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
Not in trouble, just not right.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

This is the problem with the whole abortion debate. It is all semantics. The two sides cannot agree on the definition of a child. Curtis's opinion, quoted above, is the definition of the pro-abortion crowd. The anti-abortion crowd has a different definition, and they are just as certain that theirs is right as Curtis is about his. It must be nice to be able to view the world in such a simplistic fashion.

Now, I have a different problem with opinions relating to this issue. I can't help but wonder how those who fight for a woman's absolute right to control her own body when it comes to abortion are, in many cases, the same ones telling the same woman she can't rent her body to me for a few hours. Gosh, I promise I'll return it in good condition when I'm done with it. Well, at least fair condition. I'll pay for any damage. Honest.

Bill

[lex ludite]

An excellent summary of the issue across the board. You make an excellent point in jest, or was it? If you think that issue is fun, how about the age of consent issue here in the good ole US of A? For the longest time there was no such thing in Japan and I hear that Chile is considering raising the age of consent from 12 to 14. God knows what it is in Europe and the rest of Asia? How about them apples?

[Curtis]

I thought this thread was dead! Thanks Bill.

I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

On the other hand, I think most pimps deserve to be taken out and shot.

(lex, you'll find two or three other 'age of consent' threads scattered about; one of them currently active.)

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by lex ludite
An excellent summary of the issue across the board. You make an excellent point in jest, or was it? If you think that issue is fun, how about the age of consent issue here in the good ole US of A? For the longest time there was no such thing in Japan and I hear that Chile is considering raising the age of consent from 12 to 14. God knows what it is in Europe and the rest of Asia? How about them apples?

It wasn't really in jest. This is the heart of the issue. Nobody argues that women should be allowed to kill their children. The different sides in this issue just have hugely differing views of when it should be considered a child. There seems to be no compromise position available.

Now, age of consent is 16 in Britain. Here in the US it varies by state. It is not a constant 18, as many suppose. Also, in several states it depends upon the difference in age between the two partners. A 16 year old may be fair game if you are 18, but jailbait if you are 25.

Bill

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

Ever notice how nobody wants to get caught being against anything? That's why it's pro-choice and pro-life, instead of anti-life and anti-choice.

Anyway, the movement to legalise abortion was and is a feminist issue. While there may be feminist groups who favor legalizing prostitution, I am not aware of any. Their position is that it is evil exploitation of women and should not be tolerated, no matter what the individual sex worker may think.

Now, I agree with you that it should be legal. While medical insurance, dental, pensions, etc. are nice, they imply that everyone would have to work for a large enough firm to make this happen. What about the woman who wants to be self employed? How about the three close friends who just want to make a little money for Christmas? Think about the plight of the twins (OK, we're getting into fantasy territory here) who want to raise some spending money with a lettle tag-team action?

The required exams for STDs would be good, but may be overrated. The incidence of STDs among prostitutes is currently no higher than in the single female population as a whole (in the US). The real risk there is tatoos, and the risk is high in professional parlors. It isn't the needles. They reuse the ink, which is expensive. They usually pour off some ink from the bottle into a separate container, but when done, many pour it back into the bottle. Right now, 40% of Hep C cases are contracted at professional tatoo parlors.

Be careful!

Bill

[Curtis]

"What about the woman who wants to be self employed?" What, non-union labor? Perish the thought! (Actually, I'm anti-union, myself.)

My father was self-employed and still had to withold (quarterly, rather than weekly) and pay a double-share of social security taxes (no unemployment tax, though).

And, while we're on the subject of fantasy, let's not forget that prostitution is 'the oldest profession'. Professional people need to be TRAINED and liscensed, and need to be periodically requalified and undergo refresher-training. Practising without a liscence, except upon your own family, makes you subject to arrest and...punishment.

While you may be right about the incidence of STDs in North America and Western Europe, in the Balkans, India and most of sub-Saharan Africa rates of HIV infection run nearly 100% among prostitutes.

The British Army liscenced and inspected prostitutes in their areas of operation during both world wars, and the rate of STD infection among their troops was less than 10% of what it was among American soldiers, who had unenlightened top brass.

I suspect that this is also why Americans left so many bastards behind when we pulled out of Europe in WWII and later Vietnam. It may have happened to British soldiers, too, but I sure don't hear about it.

Finally, I think you're probably right about how the feminists of the 70s feel about prostitution, but the 'new age' feminists, with their 'Grrl power', seem to believe that feminism is all about taking charge of your sexuality. If that's really the case, shouldn't they be in favor of legalized protitution? Or wouldn't they consider prostitution to be an expression of sexuality? Maybe they would consider it to be a business.

I'm liking this thread!

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
"While you may be right about the incidence of STDs in North America and Western Europe, in the Balkans, India and most of sub-Saharan Africa rates of HIV infection run nearly 100% among prostitutes.

Finally, I think you're probably right about how the feminists of the 70s feel about prostitution, but the 'new age' feminists, with their 'Grrl power', seem to believe that feminism is all about taking charge of your sexuality. If that's really the case, shouldn't they be in favor of legalized protitution? Or wouldn't they consider prostitution to be an expression of sexuality? Maybe they would consider it to be a business.


Yes, I was referring to the STD rates in the US, which is the only area for which I had information.

The major feminist organizations, such as NOW, are still opposed to prostitution. Of course it's a business. The trouble is that it's now an illegal business, so the workers have no protection under the law. This leaves them open to exploitation by pimps, dangerous and non-paying clients, and arrest or further exploitation by police. Certainly it would be a better situation if it was not illegal.

[Spitman]

In France prostitution is legal. Prostitutes have trade unions, pay taxes and get health care. In the Netherlands they tolerate bordellos because they make sex workers more accessible for health controls. In the UK I believe there are plans to legalise prostitution for similar reasons, but it will be a lot tougher on pimps. I think prostitution is also legal in Germany. In Italy I heard that there is a plan to legalise bordellos, to get prostitutes off the streets.

In some countries the age of consent is actually lower for prostitutes!

[MrJerseyGuy]

Originally posted by Lord Douche
Med Students are taught to perform abortions? Personally, I cannot understand how it could be seen as either erotic or amusing, and from what I can tell, it was intended to be the former.
I agree with redEva, if you don't like it, skip over it, go back in your browser, or close it.

I don't find it erotic either...but then lets all remember that most of the general poulation doesn't find anything erotic or amusing about our lifestyle either. We all associate with people everyday who would think of us as preverts or disgusting if they knew what went on in our bedrooms or our minds.

If you're not into it...don't do it. If you don't like it, don't read it.

[Alex Bragi]

Ok, ok, ok. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. If you don’t enjoy it, back click. Got it! Got it! Got it!

Now getting back to the original question, how dark is too dark? Is there such a thing? Should certain topics be off limits? Not necessarily this one, anything? Should some things be taboo even when they're ficticious?

Recently I read about the downfall of internet porn king, Tom Reedy, whose main defence was – the photographs posted, which shocked and distressed hardened Dallas police, were computer generated - no children were harmed. Forgetting the example of Lex’s story, if it’s not really ‘real’, how much more acceptable is it? Should, for example, paedophilias be allowed to view computer generated kiddy porn?

Personally, I just don’t feel comfortable with this kind of appetite is being fed. Why? I think it’s like eating carob, it tastes ok for a while, but then you really have to have some chocolate.

Oh, please, before anyone jumps in and says ‘Oh but reading a murder mystery doesn’t make you want to go out and shoot some one!” Well, that’s true, but almost everyone has the urge to have sex with someone, some time, while very few get the urge to kill another - anytime.

Oh yes, that reminds me, has anyone here read Mike Agostini’s “Death the Ultimate Orgasm’? I read a brief overview of it the other day, and I’m now tracking down a copy.

Alex. :)

[j]

Lex and others,

I recall an old 'Playboy Forum' letter with this pearl of wisdom:
'Life starts when the kids are married and the dog is dead'.

This settled the issue when I read it first!

Seriously, Lex has oodles of talent and he's obviously a driven writer. He's best avoided by squeamish readers, but I have found that having my envelope pushed a bit hard can be part of the pleasure of BDSM books. The secret is not to allow oneself to grow 'numb' to softer, more civilized pleasures. I have books which would raise most eyebrows in this company, and others which would be seen as almost vanilla. (ALMOST!!!) Yet all can make me cum.

[fetish101]

Originally posted by Curtis
I thought this thread was dead! Thanks Bill.

I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

On the other hand, I think most pimps deserve to be taken out and shot.

(lex, you'll find two or three other 'age of consent' threads scattered about; one of them currently active.)



Most women get involved with pimps because originally they were their boyfriends that supplied them with drugs. Once the pimps get the girl hooked, they then take away the supply. The women get so desperate that they will do anything, i.e: prostitution, to get that supply. They give the pimp the money they make hooking and the pimp then obliges their addictions. My personal views on "taking pimps out and shooting them" are that that will only create a power vacuum that will be filled by the next drug dealer. To really get rid of forced prostitution, you need to get rid of the drug trade.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by fetish101
My personal views on "taking pimps out and shooting them" are that that will only create a power vacuum that will be filled by the next drug dealer. To really get rid of forced prostitution, you need to get rid of the drug trade.

In addition, the pimps provide a needed service. Prostitutes do not have recourse to help from the police because prostitution is illegal. If they have trouble with customers not paying or assaulting them, the pimp is their only option. The solution to this is to legalize prostitution.

Bill

[Spitman]

I would not enjoy a story that made fun of abortion, which is too serious an issue for me, but I would not challenge an author's right to express whatever ideas he has in a story.

In a similar way, I have my personal views on abortion, but whatever people think about it, they tend not to be swayed by any argument. My own view is that whatever the justification, to abort a child is exactly like giving the death sentence for a parking offence, but I also accept that there are situations when the interests of the mother should take precedence. What I don't accept is abortions carried out purely for social or economic reasons, and mostly abortion is carried out for what I see as purely selfish reasons.

I don't associate opinions on abortion with those on prostitution, or anything else, but there are groups of people with the same view on a combination of topics. They call the larger ones political parties, and sometimes the smaller ones are called pressure groups.

On prostitution, some good views have been expressed here. If there was a way to decouple prostitution from crime, drugs etc. that is where I would want to go. Prostitution can be and often is a particularly appalling form of slavery in which the prostitute's personal dignity and even her protection from disease are surrendered. Some men will never treat a woman with respect, so I will not pretend that even in an ideal world prostitution is going to be a nice profession, but at least it can be voluntary, and a prostitute can have health care and protection from criminal exploitation.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Spitman
On prostitution, some good views have been expressed here. If there was a way to decouple prostitution from crime, drugs etc. that is where I would want to go. Prostitution can be and often is a particularly appalling form of slavery in which the prostitute's personal dignity and even her protection from disease are surrendered. Some men will never treat a woman with respect, so I will not pretend that even in an ideal world prostitution is going to be a nice profession, but at least it can be voluntary, and a prostitute can have health care and protection from criminal exploitation.

The only way to eliminate the crime/slavery aspects of prostitution is to make it legal, so professional sex workers have the same recourse to help from the authorities that everyone else enjoys.

Bill

[GaryWilcox]

That's one thing I wish they would legalize. But the standards of practice would need to be ridiculously high.

[niyah2]

Being in the medical profession i have seen the results of alot of terrible things. Women beaten to make them have an abortion, women using coat hangers to abort themselves due to no abortion facility available. Abortions with half knowledged people because its cheap and fast. Then the woman shows in the ER with a major infection from the dirty equipment. My view on abortion is irrelevant but i will say it is my body and my choice period.

As for the story writing about abortions and "Lex" having a darkside. Look at Stephen King. He writes horror and has put abortions in His books. How far is to far I don't think there is a limit to a writer's darkness or there should be one. It is from within the writer's mind of imagination and some have a gift for the darker than dark while others have the gift for the lighter and most godly of light. i have a darkside and sometimes i fear writing it for people saying it is to dark or how can someone that nice write something as dark or evil as that. Then i look at other author's out there and i find myself saying well they did it why can't i?

A writer that has no blocks, no walls surrounding what they write is a better writer for it. If we hold back we are cheating ourselves as writers and the readers who sit and wait for our next piece to come out.

As for prositution it should be legal. It would then be safer for everyone concerned. It would also help keep runaways from being sold into slavery or shipped to another country to serve as a sex slave.

We each have our own opinions and these opinions are right to us but they do not have to be right to others.

niyah2

[Alex Bragi]

Hello niyah2,

That's a good response, on all subjects raised on this thread, and certainly much to think about and consider.

And, since I see that it's your first posting, welcome to the family/fourm.

Alex.

[drake7]

Alex, I see things that are offensive to me in stories as well. I realize, as I am sure you do, that each of us has a different view on what is or isn't "over the line."

For some the abortion topic may be exciting. I didn't find it particularly offensive or exciting either one- I did find it very unrealistic however.

My best advice, even on those topics that seem very controversial, is just to skip over it and go on to something more interesting. The atmosphere here on the site is one that encourages freedom of expression and I would hate to think someone was discouraged because of a post here denigrating their particular form of kink.

Drake.

[Morrighan]

I'm amazed that the discussion has managed to remain civilized thus far. The topic of abortion pushes people's buttons in a way that few others do--specifically because it is a question of life and death, and the death of a complete innocent.

I'll chime in with most of the others on the side of freedom of speech, to say if you don't like it, don't read it. I do, however, think that abortion is not snuff, and should be identified as such. To have it spring out at you in something you are reading is a little disquieting.

And something to add--someone mentioned that Stephen King has used abortion in his novels, and I have to say that it's all in how that subject matter is handled. Stephen King makes it a horrible thing, a tool of terror, at least in every book of his I've ever read. This use was different, and if it was intended to be funny...well, it takes a talent above and beyond almost any I can imagine to make the death of an unborn child in any way humorous.

I'm trying very hard not to come down too judgemental. I haven't read the work, and I won't. I will just say that there should be something in either the story codes or the story summary to warn people browsing through the forums. Regardless of when you believe life starts, just as the author has the right to say what he'she likes, the reader has the option to choose what they read.

Morrighan

[castle2001]

Sorry for the delay. This thread seems to go on forever. I guess the battle will go on forever as well.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

Not an apt Simile.Tonsils and the appendix are removed only when infected.
Viablilty is now down to the fifth month. Puts the sqweeze on the pro abortion crowd.

[Morrighan]

Curtis, everyone has different beliefs on when "life" starts. My personal opinion is that until we come up with some instrument that measures the "soul" entering the child, then we should err on the side of life. Whether you call it "soul" or "spirit" or whatever else, if you believe that there is some part of you that continues after the body dies, then you should be opposed to abortion. Other than that, the line is too thin. I really believe strongly that abortion is wrong, and it's murder, but the whole argument is based on unprovable beliefs on both sides, which is why there can be no compromise and no argument that will persuade either side. The arguments aren't based on fact; they're based on convenience and religion, which are not quantifiable arguments. You take a lot of both on faith and personal beliefs. Please, let's just leave this lie. The line is straight down the middle and nothing I can say or you can say will change anyone's mind.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

In addition, the pimps provide a needed service. Prostitutes do not have recourse to help from the police because prostitution is illegal. If they have trouble with customers not paying or assaulting them, the pimp is their only option. The solution to this is to legalize prostitution.

Bill

No..my whole argument was not how to make the hooking profession more equitable for the workers..it was more about how to get rid of it. There are girls who are not drug users and simply enjoy the line of work as a sex worker, although I doubt there's very many in it other than their circumstances force them. Prostitution should be illegal, because it spreads STD's. Usually, when FORCED prostitution comes into play, it's because some pimp has got his girlfriend hooked on a drug, then forced her to start pimping to pay for her addiction. Either that, or the women, for one reason or another, are unemployable and must resort to prostitution to pay the bills (but I would argue that more often than not the "bills" are really some sort of addiction, be it drugs or alchohol). Women/Men like that do not deserve a free ticket to continue the downward spiral, then need to be institutionalized. Get them off the street, give them hard core kick in the ass and cut off the controlled substance supply. Perhaps give them some sort of training..a high school diploma would probably be a good start (most probably don't even have that). Then, once they are cleaned up, move them to half way homes on the condition that they find gainfull employment (there will be state/province run programs for this) to get experience. If they fail to tow the line there, then they should be sent back for more "attitude adjustment". Some of you will inevitable say this is way to hardline of an approach, and most of this is goes against their rights. Well, fuck that. These people have fucked up. They're poster children for everything that's fucked up about society. They're the people that make that "seedy neighborhood" seedy!!

Now, onto abortion. It's a shitty fact of life that the woman gets stuck getting pregnant and having the child. In a perfect world, there would be serious consequences (other than monetary) for the man too! But, alas, there isn't. Too often the woman, by default, gets stuck with this child and the man buggers off never to be heard from. Is it fair that just because of physiological reasons the women should be stuck with this burden? No! As long as the fetus is part of the woman's body, she should have free reign as to what to do with it. I know, some of you will come back and say "so you're equating a fetus to an ingrown hair?"...and essentially water it down enough and yeah, that's what I'm saying. It is part of the woman's body. If she doesn't want it, it should absolutely be her right to have an abortion.

[Morrighan]

As I said above...I will probably be in the minority on this site, but the woman has some culpability too in the creation of child. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't indiscriminately f*** around. Cases of rape and incest...please, please, PLEASE can't we just leave this one alone. Someone will seriously offend someone else if this continues, and no one will ever be swayed in their belief by anything anyone else says here. All we're going to do is make each other angry. Viewing the "fetus" as a part of the body no different from the tonsils or the appendix sickens me. It's a child, it's a child, it's a child. It's an innocent life with no control over what happens to him or her or how he or she was concieved. All life is precious. I believe this, you believe otherwise. Can you not see that neither of us are likely to change in this belief? Let it alone.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

As I said above...I will probably be in the minority on this site, but the woman has some culpability too in the creation of child. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't indiscriminately f*** around. Cases of rape and incest...please, please, PLEASE can't we just leave this one alone. Someone will seriously offend someone else if this continues, and no one will ever be swayed in their belief by anything anyone else says here. All we're going to do is make each other angry. Viewing the "fetus" as a part of the body no different from the tonsils or the appendix sickens me. It's a child, it's a child, it's a child. It's an innocent life with no control over what happens to him or her or how he or she was concieved. All life is precious. I believe this, you believe otherwise. Can you not see that neither of us are likely to change in this belief? Let it alone.

Morrighan

Well, I've said my bit about the whole thing, but not talking about a topic simply because it's somewhat of a loaded one and will step on other's morals and "make each other angry" is ridiculous. Why can't people talk about it? You believing that “a child is a child is a child” doesn't offend me, even if I disagree in this one special circumstance. Simply saying, "I don't want to hear anymore discussion on this because it offends me" is out of line in my opinion. This is a public forum, furthermore it's not your public forum, so as long as people adhere to the holy CoC discussion like this should be allowed. If you don't like the topic anymore, feel free to not open the thread.

[Morrighan]

Far be it for me to try to close down a debate if people want to keep debating. "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." There's little left to debate there. But you're right, Fetish; you all can keep debating if you like. Based on what happened to the thread about smoking, I figured the debate would be even more vicious here. Either way, Morrighan gracefully bows out. Adding that she does enjoy your posts and opinions, even when she doesn't agree with them.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

Far be it for me to try to close down a debate if people want to keep debating. "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." There's little left to debate there. But you're right, Fetish; you all can keep debating if you like. Based on what happened to the thread about smoking, I figured the debate would be even more vicious here. Either way, Morrighan gracefully bows out. Adding that she does enjoy your posts and opinions, even when she doesn't agree with them.

Morrighan

To that I say thank you. I also enjoy your input and opinions, it makes for good discussions which is the reason I come to this site (not so much for the bdsm aspect..I just like the community here). I meant no offense, just stating my take on things. I agree, with the statements "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." it is pointless to argue. You never know though, someone may come up with something you never thought of, so it's beneficial to keep the topic open.

[Curtis]

Whether you call it "soul" or "spirit" or whatever else, if you believe that there is some part of you that continues after the body dies, then you should be opposed to abortion. Other than that, the line is too thin.Morrighan

I don't believe that some part of you continues after the body dies. I do believe that the line is very thin.

castle2001: "Not an apt simile. Tonsils and the appendix are removed only when infected." -- That's a good point. Let me try a different simile then. If I can ever get the money together ("fat" chance), I'm going to have liposuction. Morally, I see no difference between me getting five pounds of fat sucked out and a woman getting a 16 week fetus sucked out.

I believe that abortion is the stupidest method of birth control, just as liposuction is the stupidest method of figure control, but I also believe that AS LONG AS THE FETUS IS PRE-VIABILITY, fetish101 is right that it's part of the woman and no one should be able to tell her what she can do with it. Once it's far enough along to survive outside its host, it should have rights of its own, and a legal standing/advocate.

I'm going to thank drake7 for digging out this dead thread and Morrighan for re-aligning it along the deviant path of abortion rights. ("deviant" as in it deviated from Alex's original theme of whether abortion is proper material for stories in the Library.) It'd been so long that I had forgotten that this WASN'T a similar thread that I began at the same time, which WAS on the topic of abortion rights. I'm not sure how prostitution entered into it. Anyway, I apologize to Alex for being the one who, apparently, initiated the hijacking of this thread.

[Morrighan]

I didn't want to do this. I was going to let it alone. I had, I swear to you, forgotten about our earlier discussion and was off debating politics in another forum. And oddly enough, we got on the abortion argument there is well. So I have a dare for you who say that a 'fetus' is nothing more than a tonsil, an appendix, an ingrown hair. That think that a sixteen-week old fetus is the equivalent of five pounds of fat.

I was going to leave this alone, because in my mind, as much as I enjoy the variety of topics posted here, this wasn't a subject fit (for me) to discuss in these forums. But I saw this and I CAN'T leave it alone. It made me, literally, sick. So this is my dare: follow the links below. Look at these pictures, which are validated by a pathologist's report. Look at these pictures, and come back and tell me again what you just told me. I am sorry, I swear to you. I don't want to come off as a right wing lunatic, but...anyway. Look at them, really look at them. Look at the difference between eleven weeks and look at twenty weeks. The links are below. Follow them, and if your opinion remains unchanged, I have nothing left to say.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/archive1.htm
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm


Morrighan :(

[Curtis]

Well, I looked through archive 1. What was your point?

[fetish101]

Well, I looked through archive 1. What was your point?


Well, her point was to change your opinion.

It didn't change mine. Yes, those aborted fetus' did have hands, feet, heads, eyes etc..but this is not something that I hadn't taken into consideration. I've been to Rotten.com before. Those images did not give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside by any means, but they do not persuade me that women shouldn't have the right to an abortion.

The priests for life can pose the little things any way they like, I still believe firmly that they were not sentient beings worthy of personal rights.

[Curtis]

They certainly were nothing new. Life magazine did a photo series on fetal development around 1970; we studied it in Biology in high school in the mid-70s; and Time (and I think National Geographic) have done photo essays on the subject in the past two years. I agree with you that it's irrelevant -- they're meant to shock, not inform -- but they really aren't shocking. If anything, I'd say they support my position. The 11 week images are just masses of undifferentiated tissue. They could be frogs or anything; they're certainly not human.

fetish, you've brought up another issue, which drifts even farther off-topic: What rights do non-sentient beings have? I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so I don't believe that man was given dominion over the beasts. I believe that we're care-takers for the planet and that we have responsibilities toward the less-intelligent creatures, but not rights over them.

That doesn't mean we can't eat meat. Humans are omnivorous, and I, in particular, am carnivorous. It does mean we shouldn't mistreat our meat animals...or our pets.

[GaryWilcox]

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually been through an abortion.

I have. Or, my ex wife has, with what would have been our child, while I sat in the waiting room.

It was a decision we made together. I think that there are valid reasons to terminate unwanted pregnancies, but when I look back on our's, I know that we were just scared of what it would do to us, and the kind of parents we would be.

Letting go of all of the crap surrounding the shape of the fetus... the simple truth is, it was a part of me in her, growing into a seperate life, and we killed it because we were afraid we'd be bad parents.

I don't want to protest abortion clinics. I just feel like people should be informed before they go to an abortion clinic or terminate their pregnancy with some herbal cure that they should consider that this kind of decision wil haunt them for the rest of their lives.

It's irreversible. Having another child is not the child you aborted; it can never be undone.

[Curtis]

(Hmm. 500th post)

That sounds like a good reason to me. A lot of women have multiple abortions, so I'm guessing they weren't too haunted by the experience. I expect that sort of thing varies from person to person. Certainly Roe agrees with you.

[fetish101]

fetish, you've brought up another issue, which drifts even farther off-topic: What rights do non-sentient beings have? I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so I don't believe that man was given dominion over the beasts. I believe that we're care-takers for the planet and that we have responsibilities toward the less-intelligent creatures, but not rights over them.

That doesn't mean we can't eat meat. Humans are omnivorous, and I, in particular, am carnivorous. It does mean we shouldn't mistreat our meat animals...or our pets.

Well, without pulling out my dictionary, by sentient what I was trying to convey was conscious. Animals are conscious. My cat is conscious. He definitely knows what he likes and doesn't like. This gives him rights. It does not however give him the same rights as a human. We as a society practice humane euthanasia for animals that are either too sick, mentally unstable, or too numerous to care for. These rights also do not apply to livestock killed for consumption. What I believe, and luckily the rest of society does too, is that all animals have the right not to be abused. Animals killed for food are done so in a humane, mostly painless manner. Animals that undergo euthanasia never even feel it coming.

[fetish101]

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually been through an abortion.

I have. Or, my ex wife has, with what would have been our child, while I sat in the waiting room.

It was a decision we made together. I think that there are valid reasons to terminate unwanted pregnancies, but when I look back on our's, I know that we were just scared of what it would do to us, and the kind of parents we would be.

Letting go of all of the crap surrounding the shape of the fetus... the simple truth is, it was a part of me in her, growing into a seperate life, and we killed it because we were afraid we'd be bad parents.

I don't want to protest abortion clinics. I just feel like people should be informed before they go to an abortion clinic or terminate their pregnancy with some herbal cure that they should consider that this kind of decision wil haunt them for the rest of their lives.

It's irreversible. Having another child is not the child you aborted; it can never be undone.

Well, I assume this question is directed to the pro abortionists here, myself being one. I have been through 3 abortions, although none of them were my child.

My mother had an abortion when she was 20, 10 years before she had me. Both my parents have gone through this with my sister and I in great detail, citing numerous reasons as to why they made that decision when they did. Monetary, mental, emotional, career reasons were the biggest ones.

My sister, now just 18, had a self induced abortion 2 years ago. She had unprotected sex, got pregnant, got really scared and found out over the internet how to perform it. I am the only person that she told about it, therefore I am the only person that she has ever talked to, confided in, or looked to for support in the matter. It was not fun going through it, but I firmly believe that she will lead a much better, balanced, successful life as a result of this. She was simply not ready for the burden.

The third abortion I have been directly connected to was my girlfriend's best friend. They have known each other since kindergarten and are very close. While this was not quite as bad for me as my sister's abortion was, the role I played was now my girlfriend's responsibility in that she was the only person her friend confided in. Obviously, I found out about it through her and offered her a lot of support having already gone through it.

My point is this; I am not someone who is just blindly throwing out his opinions on subjects that I have not ever considered. I understand abortions, and the emotional problems they cause. Knowing all this, I am still able to say with 100% certainty that the ability to have an abortion should be a right afforded to all women/couples.