So long but not Goodbye

[Psynymph]

i realize all the stuff surrounding this particular situation is none of my business nor do i probably even have the slightest idea of what's really going on.....

but i'm not blind. ever since returning to the forums after my couple months absence there has been rumors, whispers, circulating throughout the forums, chat rooms and other places. rumors about certain people "taking over", over stepping their boundaries, ruling like dictators.

i am not one to listen to rumors. i will not take one person's word over another until i see proof to back up anything that is said.

so upon hearing these rumors, i simply filed them away in my head and went about my normal business here, on the forums and in the chatroom.

but proof has been significantly shown and quite plainly so.

yet it doesn't seem like anything will be done.

i know it seems i'm talking in riddles, but there will be several who will know exactly what i'm talking about.

on the group i recently started, a local bdsm group, i started a thread promoting my favorite bdsm websites. this site, the library, was at the top of the list. i spoke of the open-mindedness and un-judgmental attitude of this site. how everyone was very welcoming to all and it was a great place to learn and grow.

i now feel almost like a liar for having said those things, because it's obviously not so.

i don't have a problem with the forums. not yet, no proof. but i will openly say i do have a problem with how the chat room is being run.

i realize that this thread may be deleted or closed. i realize that i may be banned. i don't care because what i have to say needs to be said.

i don't care that so and so owns the chat room. it pisses me off that this site would support such tyranny.

haveing a chat room where you must watch what you say because you could be banned at the whim of a single person..... what happened to freedom of speech?

i have no desire to be apart of a community where i have to watch what i say for fear of being banned simply because i pissed somebody off. nor do i desire to be apart of a community that would support such a thing.

i realize there are probably all kinds of details people will think i don't know about, but either way, it's blatantly obvious.

so as Flaming-Redhead said.... i no longer will be seen in the chat room. Nor will AzraelCoburn... i speak for Him in case this thread gets closed.

i have no desire to start anything or to "sling mud", but as i said.... what i'm saying simply needs to be said in a public forum.

cariad i'm sorry, but it needed to be said publicly.

[Ozme52]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

[AzraelCoburn]

I myself do not wish to get involved in the tangled web of he said she said that every admin board seems to find them selfs in. However I would like to state something so simple that I hope it does not go over looked.

I do not know the details of what exactly has happened here or is happening. From my stay I have rather enjoyed this place. Great company roams about the halls of such a forum. I have seen this complaint forming though and in my own unbiast opinion, I think a topic such as this should run steady and strong. No i do not mean a topic where mudslinging and verbal bashing starts, but a topic where the members who keep this place flourishing can actually express their fears and concerns. As an admin of a server, I myself learned the lesson that forums and chats are not souly for those who created it. It is for the people who visit that we put ourself to the break of exhausting limits.

Master Azrael

[nk_lion]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

I'm in the same boat as you

I've been on the chat room once about a month ago, where I only saw 11 people online. What happens in the chatroom?!?!
Aren't the chatrooms moderated similar to these boards? (I really don't know, not trying to sound sarcastic or anything else)

[Dorkalicious]

Eh, I'm not exactly sure what is going on...but I'm happy someone got their feelings out.

I don't think that this should turn into some kind of flaming fight either, but I do think people should get their feelings out about whatever is going on. Maybe it'll eventually get ironed out....

=/

[MajesticFae]

Granted I've been gone for months, but I sincerely hope that there is no conspiracy.

[gagged_Louise]

Have been hearing rumours about this for some time, and the chatroom talk that Redhead posted didn't look very nice at all, but isn't this ill-will more something happening precisely in the chat? The chat room runs on its own apart from the forum, although with much the same people guesting.
I honestly haven't seen any signs of tyranny and clique mentality here on the boards.

[Psynymph]

i'm not looking to start a uprising or to convince people of anything.....

i'm just laying my thoughts out there.

just my own thoughts.

just as you and everyone else with surely post their own thoughts. and that was exactly the point to my post.

[_ID_]

I don't know if people pay attention to the shit I write, but you may have noticed on page 3 of the vent thread where I mention being able to ignore people of elevated status here on the forms. Additionally I also tried to post a vent, and because it was perceived as a flame, that was deleted. Then I tried to post a follow up to the ending of a relationship I had, I didn't mention any specifics, but I did state some facts. That post was also deleted.

So not only is there some tyranny and hyper-sensitive censorship in the chat room, it also occurs here on the forms.

Now I know I've been close to getting a ban warning or being banned because of my posts, and I will probably get that now due to this post.

If that happens, those of you who read this before it happens, I hope you see what is going on, before it is covered up.

Due to all of what I have stated above, I had to request to be removed from the thread leader of the A-Z thread. I also have gone nearly silent due to all of the above stated items.

I will remain, so long as I am not booted, as I feel it is important to give good information when needed, and appropriate.

May each of you feel enlightened to the undercurrent of hypocrisies that have been occurring.

Good day, and good luck!

[nk_lion]

I've never felt restricted on these boards yet, though I've been here for a fraction of the time. Perhaps a discussion should be open to allow members to express their discontent with what has been happening here. I'd hate for you guys and others to be banned or leave since you have often expressed you're ideas, opinion and knowledge for so many.

[~hellish one~]

agreed, Psy. i will not return to the chatroom either.

i have no beef with the forums though. i love the forums! thankfully the two are unrelated.

that is all i will say on the matter.

[Curious_1]

Out of respect for Rabbit and cariad I have said nothing.

BUT...
HUGS to
Kane
Mastermark
cat
Flaming_Redhead

You are the best!
Curi

[LikelySuspect]

I have left the chat and will not return. This has happened quite awhile ago. I'm feeling an ill will spreading to the forums as well.
This is a place I go for fun. It is not my job. I do not get paid. Therefore, if I feel uncomfortable, I will cease attendance.
I hate the fact that what I say in the forums, and what I have said in the chat room have to be censored. We are all (legally) adults, and yet some of us do not behave as such. It seems that the true purpose of these places, to be common ground for people, has been shattered and distorted.
This was a place, that for a short while, I considered home, somewhere I could be accepted. But as that is no longer the case, why stay?
If I am banned from either the chat or the forum, so be it. If that is the cost for having an opinion, then I will gladly pay.

[littleme]

I'm agreeing with Psynymph and baby girl, I'm not going back into the chat anymore.

[cariad]

I'd hate for you guys and others to be banned.

We are very very reluctant to ban anyone. If you ignore bans due to legal reasons or spamming, a quick count showed only 5 people have been banned in the last 12 months for behaviour within forums. But we do not allow flaming. I hope the following quote helps.


This forum is not here for flaming. This means that insults against a poster or his views won't be tolerated at all. You can debate a view all you want, but a direct insult may result in a forum banning. An example of the difference follows:

Example: "Catholics suck!" Is not appropriate at any time. "I think what the Catholics believe about ______ is wrong because of _____" Is appropriate.

Civil discussion is expected. Remember that these are people you are dealing with and not just words on a screen. If the best you have to offer is swearing or slander than move on to a new topic.

There are a lot of grey areas. ID has referred to a post of his talking about the end of a relationship. Even though the person was not mentioned by the name, the context and positioning of the post made it obvious about whom he was speaking. I decided that post constituted flaming since although some of the things which he said were simple fact, I considered that some could be seen as opinion or interpretation; additionally the person is no longer a member here, so was not in a position to defend her character.

I make no apology for including 'I decided' and 'I considered' in the last sentence. I did so, and have made a decision about this thread, because that is it is the role which ultimately the owner of the site has asked me carry out. Because of the grey areas within such things decisions exist, I have invited ID to ask Rabbit1 to review my decision. Although flaming can result in an instant ban given the unique circumstances of the situation I did not consider it to be appropriate.

Occasionally when a member wishes to post something which they fear might be considered a flame, they run it past myself or one of the other admins for an opinion before they stick their neck out on it. Although we don't ask or expect this, we are very willing to help in this way.

NK, does that help clarify the situation, or just stir up the cloudy waters?

cariad

[cariad]

There has been an another implied attack on me is this thread. That is fine, I am accustomed to such things, and whilst I get some complaints saying that I am too strict and some saying that I am too lenient in my interpretation of the rules I will have to assume that I am getting it about right. If I were to get no complaints it would mean that I was not doing anything - hold on, then I would get complaints about that too.

I do welcome people telling me in a constructive way when they think I have made a mistake, it gives me the opportunity to reconsider something and correct it if needs be. This is why when posts are 'deleted' they are only removed to a recycle bin from which they can be rescued if needs be.

The same applies to the chat room. Probably the only way to run such a facility without getting any complaints is not to run it at all. And then we would get complaints about no chat room. AC38 owns and runs the chat room, and does so as he sees fit, with the help of his team of mods.

I am sorry that this thread has been started, I closed Red's original one since I was concerned that things would be said which would be counterproductive to relationships. I knew there would be complaints about that, and there were.

I hope that by not closing this thread now, I am not making a big mistake, and appeal to anyone who is going to post to it, to not let it drift into the tangled web of "he said, she said" which AzraelCoburn mentioned but to a demonstrate maturity and consideration for everyone concerned. Please remember that behind each of the ID's you see here, even if it someone who has a staff position here or in the chat room, there is a real person with very real feelings who, particularly due to the media we use, can potentially be hurt in ways we cannot see.

Many people enjoy using the room, whilst some have decided that it is not to their tastes. If there really is a need or desire to have this discussion then please keep it constructive.

cariad

[Mr W]

As a former community leader on a well known ISP I'll just stick my 2p/cents worth in on the subject. Moderators are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes down to managing message boards and chatrooms. They should run an unbiased area following the guidelines of the owner but alas personal interpritation does come into play. Moderators should try not to allow their personal opinions to dictate their role within a community. Remember your role not your screen name :)
I feel for admin on this - You can please some of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time. If there is evidence of any wrong doing then my suggestion is report it to admin and let them deal with it.

[cariad]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

If you were on your other type of bike, I might just be asking if I could come and ride pillion.

cariad

p.s. Just looked back at the original post, and there is no mention of conspiracy - guess that means there really must be one, for there to be no mention of it. I think.

[Ocean_Soul]

I don't really care enough to go into details but count me in as one who's rarely going to the chat or not at all.

People I consider friends have, in my opinion, been kicked off unjustly IMHO and instead of dealing with whatever problem might be there the easy road is taken.

I think the mods should remember we're all human, who don't read the rules every time we enter and repeat them to ourselves whenever we hit the send button. And we do have feelings and express them, regardless of what they might be.

And besides, I've been happy in MDS. Wait, is that wrong? Talking about another woman in the presence of the one I should be spending time with?

[Sinful]

I have to agree, I will not be returning to the chat as well.

[_ID_]

Cariad, since you decided to claim you knew my post was about the originator of that thread, I will give you a piece of fact that you might want to know. I had her put in jail, yes jail, as in prison/lock-up/incarceration. My post you deleted was a statement of fact, therefore not a flame, and most definitely not debatable. If you want more information than that, PM me.

[cariad]

As I have said before, I make mistakes. If I made one, then I apologise. I, as anyone else here, can only act according to the best of our abilities and the best of our knowledge. I do apologise when I make mistakes, I have been criticised for it by people who say I should not. I do not apologise for being neither omnipresent nor omniscient.

If a post appears to be a flame it will always be treated be as such, and it is removed. It is not left lingering where it could cause harm, and as you know the author of the post is contacted to explain what has happened. If we are later convinced that it is not a flame, then our actions change accordingly, returning the post to its original place, sometimes in a slightly edited form.

The only alternative to this way of acting is to not have the board moderated. That is possible, but it is not how either Tiger nor, in loco Tiger, Rabbit1 wish for it to be run. I suspect it is also not how the majority of the members would like it run. I was fairly recently looking at a post by a once loyal member who left here because the moderation was too slack, accusing us of not caring about people's feelings.

Within the spirit of what I have just stated, I was, and continue to be, very willing to discuss the post which I removed.

cariad


p.s. I am just about to replace the aforementioned post. The power of communication!!! I removed it believing it to be outside of the forum guidelines, it would appear that I was wrong.

[Guest 91108]

Hrmm .... This topic of chat and forums is difficult at very least.

So many thoughts and opinions, Ideas and comments I could throw out for all to read, but a friend has helped me learn something to consider as i type this so...

To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.

To fear your comments being used against you from one place to another is truly devious.

To have to watch those you assume to be friends because there are sides to be taken is troublesome at the least.

To lack consistency in having written rules, and rules that you find out as you cross them and become banned is rare on the net but happens.

We all have to abide and enforce unwritten rules on ourselves and others.
I do as well. It is not a thing against anyone. The difference is on the level and importance of the unwritten rules and how they are applied.
Unless the unwritten rules become such a thing as to have importance enough to get one banned, if it does, then it should be written.

[Psynymph]

cariad let me first say that i truly hope i wasnt the one you feel insulted you. that was never ever even close to my intention. i made a point to apologize to you because i knew that posting this thread was going to make your life a little more diffcult, but again i say..... it all needed to be said.

i also don't really have a problem with the forums. not really. nothing as substantial as the chat room. but i posted this here in the forums because i can't exactly express my opinion in the chat room, about the chat room, without being banned.

i wanted to mainly point out to the website owners that even though they may not own and run the chat room, the chat room is none the less an extension of this website. and the chat room is making the website look bad.

this thread is a way for people to express their complaints in a mature and civil way and KNOW that they are being heard since it is a public forum.

i think the owner's of this website should seriously consider the reason behind this thread and courses of action that can be taken. because as i said, i realize that the chat room is seperately owned but right now it is an extension of sorts of this website. an extension that sits in ill will and "conspiriacy".

lol and no there isn't any real conspiriacy. as i said.... i know it seemed for the most part i basically evaded saying what i meant outright but that was because i couldn't say anything without naming names. obviously though, people realize what i am talking about.

i'm glad to see that this thread hasn't gone sour and hopefully it wont. because it's not my intention.

cariad, again i am sincerely sorry that i had to purposefully make your beautiful life more difficult. as i have always said, you are a goddess to me on this forum and i respect you.

[~hellish one~]

To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.


i don't think most of us have stopped going into chat out of fear or intimidation. i think it is more of a state of disgust really. kinda like when union workers go on strike to prove a point. only here, we don't have a union and there are no 'demands' to be met. i know i am just one person, and i don't know about everyone else, but by not going into chat, i want the chat staff to know I won't put up with that shit. whether they care or not...~shrugs~ at least i made my point. ya know?

[cariad]

Psynymph, I know your motives were right, even though I personally wish you had not opened this thread. And fear not - I am not offended.

I am however very concerned that this thread could lead to emotive posts which could lead to flaming which almost certainly will lead to people being banned from the site. And that is something I really do not wish to happen.

We are all adults, and we should all be able to discuss this issues in a calm and constructive way, but history has shown that is not often the case.

My sincere wish is that nobody leaves the site as a result of this thread, either because they are banned or because they are hurt. Only the people who post to it can make that wish come true.

cariad

[Guest 91108]

Psynymph, I think your initial post was needed to be done. IMO.
Posting is the only recourse members have to air problems. That was pointed out about the lack or Reading material so too it applies to the way other things are done or not. IMO.

~~~~




Originally Posted by Wolfscout
To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.
i don't think most of us have stopped going into chat out of fear or intimidation. i think it is more of a state of disgust really. kinda like when union workers go on strike to prove a point. only here, we don't have a union and there are no 'demands' to be met. i know i am just one person, and i don't know about everyone else, but by not going into chat, i want the chat staff to know I won't put up with that shit. whether they care or not...~shrugs~ at least i made my point. ya know?

I have not replied to you for some time for many reasons.
I can understand the disgust comment. Really.
hrm enough not going in to chat will leave a chat of like minded wrongness.
I guess that is acceptable to many here.
Not sure why I give a rat's ass except that I care.
I cared enough to be a Mod until i was made not to care anymore.

~~~~

cariad, ... there will always be individuals who will screw up threads often on purpose to get it closed. I would like to suggest that be kept in mind while others are discussing things that matter to them as best they can in thier own way.

And some of you who would post in that manner should know ahead that the forum's rules would have your post deleted or removed at the very least. It's not censorship if you break forum rules or post negative BS to include drama instigative BS..

[tessa]

As long as this thread remains to be an outlet for discussion and not for bashing, I also believe it's a really good thing. Until what happened with Red happened, I thought that the chatroom and the Forums were completely and totally separate, based on the information I had. But after Red had her issue in chat, I learned that as a rule, if one is banned from chat, then one can be banned from the Forums. Ok, that right there implies to me that chat and Forums are not as separate as I first believed. And if one can get banned from Library chat because an opinion expressed on an entirely different site simply pisses off the powers that be, well, members here in the Forums ought to at least be aware of what can happen.

I have never seen censorship or flaming encouraged nor allowed here in the Forums- something I greatly appreciate and am thankful for. I have witnessed it for myself in the chatroom, which is why I rarely ever went in. I won't go in at all now after the injustice done to Red.

Thank you Psynymph for pointing out what needed to be pointed out. Thank you, cariad, for allowing this discussion to take place.

tessa

[annie]

i have thought of many things i might say in response to these posts...

the one thing i keep coming back to is... no matter WHAT i say or HOW i say it it will be seen as "taking sides" and i will lose friendships out of it...

And honestly... THAT is what pisses me off and makes me the saddest... a catch 22 situation, no matter what is said....

Do i fully agree with what some on both sides have done? no.
Do i understand some of their emotions, etc. that added to the outcome and their responses? i am trying too.
Does that excuse any of the behavior? No

But, just as that does not excuse any of the behavior the emotions, etc. are what make us human...and flawed. Life would be boring otherwise. And that same human nature is what allows us the options to forgive and come together or to hold onto anger and perhaps lash out... We all make errors in judgment. The real test is how we respond when called on the carpet about those errors or how we respond when we have been given an apology.

So... where does that leave me (and others in the same spot)? Feeling as though no matter what i will ultimately end up having to "choose" a side or will be "not as trusted" because i am still friends with so and so, etc. No one should have to go through that in a place that they love and feel secure... nothing is left if they do.

So, when that happens (and human nature i'm sure it is just a matter of time) i will leave... being once again wiser for the knowledge, friendship and love shared and mourning for lose of the same...

[tessa]

So... where does that leave me (and others in the same spot)? Feeling as though no matter what i will ultimately end up having to "choose" a side or will be "not as trusted" because i am still friends with so and so, etc. No one should have to go through that in a place that they love and feel secure... nothing is left if they do.

So, when that happens (and human nature i'm sure it is just a matter of time) i will leave... being once again wiser for the knowledge, friendship and love shared and mourning for lose of the same...

I hope that doesn't happen, annie. You would be dearly missed.

The only "lesson" that's been taught by all this is that cruel vindictiveness hurts more than just the target at which it was initially aimed.

[Ocean_Soul]

Psynymph, I know your motives were right, even though I personally wish you had not opened this thread. And fear not - I am not offended.

I am however very concerned that this thread could lead to emotive posts which could lead to flaming which almost certainly will lead to people being banned from the site. And that is something I really do not wish to happen.

We are all adults, and we should all be able to discuss this issues in a calm and constructive way, but history has shown that is not often the case.

My sincere wish is that nobody leaves the site as a result of this thread, either because they are banned or because they are hurt. Only the people who post to it can make that wish come true.

cariad


I’m not a real fan of hand holding or people being protected from themselves. If a flaming flamer gets banned than what’s wrong with that? One less on the important membership count? It just might occur to them that there are times that holding your tongue is the preferable thing to do. Than if they really want back they can say sorry or if that fails, create a new username and hopefully a new attitude to go with it. I have read about how kids are so overprotected from themselves these days that they have so little confidence they can barely function in the world. These are valuable life lessons and people just have to learn them. We become adults by learning them, not at some magical point where we cease to childish and naive.

People have the right to fuck up and I wholeheartedly support that right so in the future the world doesn’t end up filled with pussies and idiots. There should be something else done before banning. Think about it, removing someone entirely is an act of last resort rather than any type of corrective action. People need to be punished first. Maybe we can get a Dom with a cane in each state to help with that, I don’t know.

I’m not saying there should be no moderators, I think they are very important to keeping the group as it is. At a specific level of maturity and above. But in a group as close as some of us are there ARE going to be personal issues, there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it other than distance everyone from everyone else or as I’ve seen, remove the ones some don’t like (the latter being an obvious garbage solution, I shouldn’t even have to point that out). Its part of human society, some people will have issues with one another. It needs to be handled maturely, and an ability to do so is what makes an adult and adult. It takes a certain type of person to be a moderator and I don’t think some here have what it takes.

[Ocean_Soul]

i have thought of many things i might say in response to these posts...

the one thing i keep coming back to is... no matter WHAT i say or HOW i say it it will be seen as "taking sides" and i will lose friendships out of it...

And honestly... THAT is what pisses me off and makes me the saddest... a catch 22 situation, no matter what is said....

I know what I would do. Whoever I thought was wrong I’d tell them that they fucked up. And if the simple fact that I think they did something wrong and made a mistake makes them question our entire relationship than I’m probably better off. For a multitude of reasons.

But that’s just me, I can be cold like that sometimes.

[Psynymph]

just_annie- nobody is asking you to choose sides. and they aren't your friends if they don't choose to respect your desire to remain "neutral".
nobody should have to "pick sides" as it were. either you agree there is something wrong or you disagree. but anyone that chooses to remain neutral should do just that. i realize that the need to choose sides may be felt but ultimately it's your decision and no one else's and that includes choosing to remain neutral.

cariad- i agree with what you said wholeheartedly which is why again i apologized for posting this, though i don't regret my decision. i know this thread in particular is going to have to be carefully watched and monitored.

Wolfscout- go Wolf!

baby_girl- you little badass ;)

[orchid]

i have just spent the better part of an hour reading and re-reading these posts.

i have only very rarely visited the chat room and not for a long, long time. i have no idea what incidents any of these posts refer to, nor do i want to know.

but i do know this...this forum has changed drastically in the time since i became a member. i used to come in here to pages of new posts and tons of people online. now i come in to only a few posts, mostly jokes (nothing wrong with this, there's some good ones in there but its not the same) and very few people online. Alot of the old regulars are gone now and there seemed to be a mass exodus at one point.

im sure the reasons for this are varied and no one's business but the people involved but the fact remains that there very obviously was some sort of serious shake up from which the forum has yet to recover.

it makes me sad. this is an excellent place to come and learn and explore. its just too bad that it seems to be dying. i hope it gets better soon.

Psy...i know i saw the address to your site somewhere recently but i cant remember where. would you please PM me with it so that i may join? i am not in your area but i have always enjoyed reading your posts.

respectfully,
orchid

[goodgirl_85]

While I know nothing of any conspiracy or whatever you may want to call whatever it is that is going on, I have something to say. While this name does not show it I have been a member here for... awhile.. honestly i cant remember when i signed up. It was less than a year ago, maybe august?

I came here after googling some such words involving bdsm because my Ex Master and I were having problems, and I had no one around that would understandthe D/s relationship I was in.

I came into chat, honestly used chat more than the forums. Was taken in almost instantly by those who were there. Some of whom have helped me greatly and may not know it. This place became like a second home to me, with people that shared similar interests and soon most came to be like family. Better than my own family even, some members of which would most likely disown me if they knew I was involved in this lifestyle.

However, because I was away visiting my mother for almost two months and chose to not be online for awhile, I seem to have missed whatever it is that is going on. I will say though, that when I came back I noticed that it was almost entirely new faces in the chat, and those I did know--well some of them werent as friendly, and others were.

People say people you talk to online cant be your real friends- well screw that. Some people I have had strictly online relationships with are some of the ones i will never forget and will always hold dear in my heart. I am saddened that this post had to be started. But as Psy said... it had to be.

Yes delia has a point about the owners decision being ultimate (and this is no way a dis or insult to AC38 please note, it goes for all forums and chats in the world, however the person with the final say should take into consideration that not everybody gets along. Hell if everyone did thousands of our brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers wouldnt be getting killed overseas.

And as someone else said, ALL personal matters between owner and chatters should be put aside BY BOTH PARTIES when a situation involving any action whether it be warning or banning.

As for the forums I can't really say that things have changed, because only since my screen name change have I become really active in them.

I think however, that as the chat is said to be a COMPLETLY SEPERATE thing from the forums that a forum ban should NEVER be because of a chat ban unless of course the situation has spilled over into the forums in a way that disregards the FORUMS rules.

And there will always be newbies coming into a chat room. There will be times when the regulars will all but disappear and new ones emerge. This happens in any chat community.

But, where I stand as i read this post, is that if most of the people that made chat once seem like home to me are no longer going then there is no reason for me to go back.

I am not taking sides, as i dont know any of the story except what Red posted. And I can honestly, see her post being deleted (sorry i love you red) to try to discourage "flaming" The fact that this post has been allowed to carry out shows the people in charge of the forums are fair as much as possible.

It is sad that some people who are legal adults can not behave as such- and again that statement is not just about this site. I work retail- I deal with people everyday all day and I know that not all adults act like adults.

One more thing, as it has been said before i only want to reiterate the fact, that the gods of this forum should perhaps look into the reasons behind why the post has been started in the first place, and why so many have responded strongly to it.

girl

[_ID_]

If you disrespect chat, you will be banned.

This statement I think is rather telling. Shouldn't the chat follow the same rules of flaming as the forms, since they are affiliated however separate. Banning a person simply because they don't respect is rather heavy handed I believe. I think disrespect, and flaming are different things altogether. God knows I have been disrespectful on here, but have avoided flaming (as far as I see it). Even with that, I haven't been banned, nor warned about my behavior. From the way I read the post, had I done the same thing in the chat room, I would have been banned by now.

Perhaps this thread will be an eye opener for the overall admin of the domain bdsmlibrary.com

[Widget]

I don't really know if this is the entirely right place for this as the chat room is another part of the site under different ownership. I wonder if they would have reason to see it unless they were directed to here. I totally agree with the right to post difference of opinion and so far despite what could become volitile, I wish to say that everyone for the most part is trying to be repsectful of each other.

People do bond in chat because they are so instantly able to commmunicate and I have no doubt there are some very strong connections that began in the chat room. I hope that airing this out will cause some smoothing of troubled waters as I enjoy comeing in the chat room too and I have missed some old names and faces.

[Psynymph]

First off, i don't know where this mudslinging occured. Obviously it wasn't in this post since cariad clearly stated that if any mudslinging occured the post would be closed and/or deleted.

So apparently only one person perceives this mudslinging.

delia, we are voicing our opinions. if you don't like what you read, feel free not to read it. but not a single insult to either you or AC has been uttered on this thread nor will there be.

Grow up? This thread is nothing but a mature discussion of a problem i have perceived and other's opinions on it. Some agree, some disagree.

Again, if you don't care for this particular discussion, feel free to not read it. You have that right.

delia, as far as i'm concerned, as far as MY personal opinion, you are the only one to come close to "flaming" and insults.

[ElectricBadger]

First off, thank you Psy for bringing up this thread. Thank you Delia for responding. It's a difficult topic, but sometimes difficult conversations need to happen to work things out. Hopefully we're all attempting to do that as we participate in this -- not just prove our own points, but understand others' and respect their disagreement. The true test of freedom is allowing people to be wrong :)

Thank you all, also, for remaining respectful: clearly tensions are high, but it reflects well on you all that we're concentrating on issues, not individuals (with a couple teensy exceptions ;) )

Remember that winning a debate is rarely about being 'right': it is about mature, logical, focused explanations of different points of view. Appealing to members and staff to frequent the chat room or seek to change it is more likely to succeed with calm and politeness than wrath.

[Warbaby1943]

Very interesting thread. Makes me happy I have never become involved in the chat room.

[Dragon's muse]

Very interesting thread. Makes me happy I have never become involved in the chat room.


Ditto:cool:

[MrWonderful]

I have no particular experience in conflict resolution, but I will gladly mediate anything that needs to be mediated. If nothing else, I hope my age gives me some standing to make this offer.

[rach]

i have thought of many things i might say in response to these posts...

the one thing i keep coming back to is... no matter WHAT i say or HOW i say it it will be seen as "taking sides" and i will lose friendships out of it...

And honestly... THAT is what pisses me off and makes me the saddest... a catch 22 situation, no matter what is said....



These are my thoughts and said with a lot more coherency than I could manage. It's very difficult when such things as this happen because the ripples spread a long way. All I keep thinking is What a Mess! Which is hardly helpful and I am at a loss as to know what to do.

rach

[his_delilah (GS)]

Wow... I'm amazed..
I sure have missed something.
And I so regret the painfull feelings of everyone involved here.
But I want to say, I am really thankfull for the mods, admins and whoever helps this chat and forum going on.
Maybe that's because I never had problems with any of them. But I think they work hard to keep all the good things going.
So don't forget that maybe you are pissed off now and NEVER EVER want to come to the chat and all that, the admins here aren't people that want you to piss of and annoy you.
I think it is important personal problems have to be talked out with the persons involved.
Power is a strange and diffucult thing. It will be always there and there will always problems around it.

Well delia, AC38/Torq, cariad I just want to thank you very much for your hard work an please keep it up.

Delilah

[Rhabbi]

Wow... I'm amazed..
I sure have missed something.
And I so regret the painfull feelings of everyone involved here.
But I want to say, I am really thankfull for the mods, admins and whoever helps this chat and forum going on.
Maybe that's because I never had problems with any of them. But I think they work hard to keep all the good things going.
So don't forget that maybe you are pissed off now and NEVER EVER want to come to the chat and all that, the admins here aren't people that want you to piss of and annoy you.
I think it is important personal problems have to be talked out with the persons involved.
Power is a strange and diffucult thing. It will be always there and there will always problems around it.

Well delia, AC38/Torq, cariad I just want to thank you very much for your hard work an please keep it up.

Delilah

I went to add my support here with delilah. I do not know what the details are, nor am I really trying to find out. But the mods here have a tough job and I think they do an excellant one.

[his_delilah (GS)]

LOL
That .
Making a point, Rhabbi?
LOL

(Sorry for this lilttle off topic one...)

[Jadetiger]

Psynymph,
Thank you this topic. it has been long over due. My experiences in chat have had an impact on my forum posts as well. I used to live in chat as well as share my bdsm experiences on the forum. I rarely go to chat anymore do to the issues mentioned by many. I did stop by recently but realized noting had changed. It is very sad that a place that once was home for many is no longer so. I personally choose not to be apart of a chat where bullying and intimidation is used in the guise of respect so someone else can control me or others. I am not a rude person by nature so watching what was happening in chat was more than I could stomach. So it is my choice not to go there any more.

[Tasker]

I do know the story behind the bans from chat. I do know that those that have been banned have been so for the following reasons: Breach of rules, deliberate attempts at disrupting the chat and false (read deliberate flaming) accusations made by disgruntled chatters who decided to play the sides game after believing deliberate lies from those that were banned.

Personally I mod to have the place as somewhere that folks can come and enjoy, discuss the lifestyle, and have fun with friends. Those that want to play silly games are welcome to enjoy each others company in the new chat they have found.

And as for the rumor that delia impersonates AC38. sorry folks, that is not true. I know for a fact that at least two of the occasions that delia has been accused of impersonating AC38 by a former chatter (and yes I have seen the log of that chat) I was talking to AC at the time.

[Jadetiger]

Sorry, I haven't been banned and I do not believe the topic was about banned members. It was about people choosing not to go to chat because of the actions of others.

Now if someone was banned and felt it it was not appropriate then they have the option of requesting it be reviewed by the site admin or I would hope there is a review process if someone feels they have been banned for no reason.

[sparkler]

when all the laughter dies in sorrow..............

[Guest 91108]

Psynymph,
Thank you this topic. it has been long over due. My experiences in chat have had an impact on my forum posts as well. I used to live in chat as well as share my bdsm experiences on the forum. I rarely go to chat anymore do to the issues mentioned by many. I did stop by recently but realized noting had changed. It is very sad that a place that once was home for many is no longer so. I personally choose not to be apart of a chat where bullying and intimidation is used in the guise of respect so someone else can control me or others. I am not a rude person by nature so watching what was happening in chat was more than I could stomach. So it is my choice not to go there any more.

That is how I see it. Those who do not bend and "fall in line" are soon gone.

From the chat rules page.

CHAT RULES & GUIDELINES:

ROOM ADMINISTRATOR: AC38 (XXXX)

First and foremost show RESPECT! If you do not use respect at all times you will lose your chat privileges!

....

Respect can have many levels...
I think respect is a very objective thing on the boards.
Also Respect is not always a certainty but is something that has to be earned.
There is only a very modest level of respect that is given freely to anyone. Civil respect. This is a level of respect that every one gets. Even people you meet on the street or at a store. And it works both ways, that is something often forgotten .
But it would seem that most ( those who have higher levels/positions) want the kind of Respect that is given to Royalty or Honored as those who have done something extraordinary are ... That just isn't going to happen in an online deal. IF it does happen it has to be earned. Not demanded.
Respect of a higher level is one which must be earned to be maintained and that is the problem here. It isn't earned and maintained daily.
Respect is given when it is deemed able and desireable, not because someone says you will respect me in a manner which pushes them above others ...
Another thing.. Respect is not given to things. they do not do anything to earn respect. No thing, whether that be a book or an idea or a situation is worthy of respect IMO. It is silly to demand such.
Think of it like this :
" You will respect my plate of sphagetti. "
see how odd that sounds ?

I also find it very odd that many see something wrong and others don't see anything at all.
makes me wonder ....

Ok i will end my long post on this and hope someone finds it valuable.

[Domtotrain]

I have hesitated to reply to this thread but I do feel strongly about 3 things.

1. Psynymph--What an amazing person you are! You are so open and forthcoming with your feelings and experiences that you are inspiring. I have read more than one of your posts with mouth agape and brain on overload. As I continue this response you may look at things just a little differently.

2. delia/Torq/AC38--d, for a 24 year old woman you are brilliant. Highly educated and by that I dont just mean schooled. I have watched when you decided to take someone under your wing and the advice and care you give is inspirational. It is sometimes confusing to realize that we are all different people at different times. There is an underlying character and yours is admirable even in the most taxing of situations. AC more which later.

3. cariad--There is perhaps no finer lady to grace these pages. When you become someones friend even they don't know how much that means to you. You are the epitome of what humans strive to become. Knowing that you will only get better I marvel.

I too, rarely frequent chat these days. There was a time I lived to be with my friends there. Not so anymore. Partially, because I have outgrown the need for the support and validation that I am OK, I am not weird, there are others like me and they are great people. So, it is possible to have my wants, needs, and desires and still be an OK person. Also, there are many more sites with chats that people frequent. In fact, I can think of 4 off hand that many of the library people can be spotted at. Yes, these days they are more often spotted at those other sites than they are here, but every one of them that I have discussed the partial exodus with longs to be back here, with things as they were. I am not sure what that means really as nothing has really changed in the couple of years I have been here except the software and a few mods here and there. Note to AC.....anyone who knows anything about computers knows there are plenty of ways around your bans. I will not discuss them here as I dont want to encourage any form of mutiny or the usurptation of your authority. Still, you must ask yourself why this is all happening now. Where there is smoke........? You may write it all off as disgruntled or spurned users, but somehow it goes even deeper. Why might I ask (rhetorically) do people seem to fly off the deep end? delia's point of less than 1% being banned is valid, still why does it project such vehemence? Why are those left behind still so emotionally affected? I think we would all agree that the key to a BDSM relationship is communication. Psy shouldn't be critizied for her attempt to share her feelings and delia should be commended for addressing the unspoken questions head on. Is anything resolved or is it just a purging of pent up emotions? Yes, you are entitled to be autocratic, however, I have seen you be the bigger man on more than one occasion. Is there an alternative? Perhaps a review committee? I am not suggesting this only providing potential options. delias point of only banning someone after being warned to stop more than once is somewhat telling. I personally, know of one banned person who admitted to me that that is exactly what happened. Is it possible when someone gets on a rant to just ban them for a day for a "cool down" period? Maybe you feel that is more than you want to do but it is a good alternative. It is your chat you may do with it as you please, but I will tell you that other sites are being bolstered by the defections. Don't care? Ok, that is your perogotive, but from my observaton that is truly uncharacteristic as I believe you want an atmosphere of unity not the divisiveness we are now seeing. Action is required, Sir.

I too, think that chat adds so much to this site that it is inseperable from the forums. I have many friends from here that would not be friends if it were not fot the immediate communications afforded us in the chat room. The give and take, the question and answer, the joke and laughter, is just too important to take seperately. What does it say about a site that is not committed to providing the best experience for it's users? When someone gets banned it doesn't just happen to them, it affects many and therein lies the reason for seeking a solution.

Those who know me, know I could go on and on for pages, but I think I have covered the major points.

cariad, feel free to edit as much or as little as you see fit.....I have implicit faith and trust in you. Oh, and point in fact, that was established during many, many conversations in chat.

Respectfully submitted by,

DTT

[Warbaby1943]

That is how I see it. Those who do not bend and "fall in line" are soon gone.

From the chat rules page.


Respect can have many levels...
I think respect is a very objective thing on the boards.
Also Respect is not always a certainty but is something that has to be earned.
There is only a very modest level of respect that is given freely to anyone. Civil respect. This is a level of respect that every one gets. Even people you meet on the street or at a store. And it works both ways, that is something often forgotten .
But it would seem that most ( those who have higher levels/positions) want the kind of Respect that is given to Royalty or Honored as those who have done something extraordinary are ... That just isn't going to happen in an online deal. IF it does happen it has to be earned. Not demanded.
Respect of a higher level is one which must be earned to be maintained and that is the problem here. It isn't earned and maintained daily.
Respect is given when it is deemed able and desireable, not because someone says you will respect me in a manner which pushes them above others ...
Another thing.. Respect is not given to things. they do not do anything to earn respect. No thing, whether that be a book or an idea or a situation is worthy of respect IMO. It is silly to demand such.
Think of it like this :
" You will respect my plate of sphagetti. "
see how odd that sounds ?

I also find it very odd that many see something wrong and others don't see anything at all.
makes me wonder ....

Ok i will end my long post on this and hope someone finds it valuable.
Don't know about valuable but possibly gave me a little more insight to the problems being discussed in this thread if I use my imagination and read between the lines. Since I have no idea what the hell anyone is referring to, yet still find this thread very interesting, any little hint helps.

[goodgirl_85]

Ok i will end my long post on this and hope someone finds it valuable.

If that post was long, mine must be a novel. Lol.

Yes, the whole respect thing is weird in the chat room.

Without mentioning names I will tell a situation in which I was personally involved.

Someone in the chat room, who considers themselve a Master, when sort of new (at least to me), made a comment to another Dom that I was laughing with and having a very good conversation about me. I believe it was along the lines of Dont give her a massage, she doesnt deserve it, shes just a sub. Yes everyone has different veiws, but I have seen this person whom I have know respect for at all make other derrogatory disrespectful comments to others, and has on SEVERAL occassions made them to me. I am not on to go tattle, so I didn't. But one particularly nasty comment got me, and I said something back, like I normally do, but I kept it going. I was pissed.

I was told to knock it off and to ignore him. In the chat room, while nothing was said to him. Gee, I wonder why? Because he is a Master? I should hope not. I hope that something was said to him in private. However, going back after that, he has still made more subtle disrespectful comments. Yes, i should report them. BUt when a mod... even the owner is in the room talking, and reading, what good would it do to report such a thing?

Makes one think.

[Guest 91108]

Goodgirl it was a long post for me. I have made several last few days in different places online. Gosh i hope that isn't a change for me .. I liek the darkness.

And...
Yes I have seen what you have said happen numerous times .. and it is not always a Dom who is offensive.

[cariad]

DTT, writing purely as one of the site's admin, but by someone who also values your friendship.

Thank you for the invitation to edit your post, but it is one I will decline. Surprising as it may seem I very rarely edit posts.

I think, and I am open to correction here, the only time I edit posts, other than at the author's request, is to remove flaming, particularly where I do not believe that the author intended to flame. Although this did not apply in the past, (yes, thank you for your kind words, but I am on a steep learning curve) I now always PM the author, explain the whats and whys, and recognising that it is ultimately their post, it does not stay in forums in its edited condition without their consent.

I have made one such edit to one post in this thread, and the edit did not change the message of the post, and their is no trace of the edit since it was done soon after posting.

_______________________________________________

To anyone who may be interested, within the life of this thread I have received a PM which talks of me being put in a tight spot because of loyalty to friends.

In my offline life I am used to dealing with conflicts, often involving people I know and like. Fortunately my training and experience of doing this enables me to be able to separate the two roles. Some while ago I was put in the position of banning someone with whose online company I enjoyed. I hated doing so, I was criticised by that person's friends for doing so, and accused of being disloyal to them. But they had broken site rules to the extent that the consequence was a lifetime ban, so I banned them. I still chat to that person on IM, but they know that if I ever see them step into here I will instantly take the correct action against them.

I am watching over this thread with same approach.

cariad

[Flaming_Redhead]

I wasn't going to make another post since the other was challenged and, therefore, deleted. I am still unsure as to what that was about. I have had this entire situation put into perspective for me by one very intelligent man. In the scheme of things, this place/situation is not what is most important in my life. I will not let it ruin my happiness or the happiness of others in my life anymore. Having said that, I will share my opinion on why chat bans are such a volatile subject. People have to deal with a lot of things in their lives. They look for ways to let off steam. One of those ways is to connect with other people with similar interests. Friendships are formed. There are many reasons why people can't connect as well in real life as they can online. Some live in remote areas. Some have many job/family responsibilities that don't leave them much time for socializing. Whatever the reason, they wind up in the chat room. Once they have found a place they are comfortable with, anything that disturbs their little corner of heaven tends to touch something deep inside. They come here to get away from stress. Imagine that you are an avid fisherman. You haven't been able to get away to go fishing in your favorite spot for months. Finally, you've had all you can stand of life, so you grab your fishing pole and head to the pond. When you get there, you discover all the laws about fishing have changed. Not only that, but someone is littering all over the place. There's hardly any fish left. It's kind of like that, only I've been watching it as it happens. It's impossible to give specific examples of rudeness without "flaming." I have had nasty comments directed toward me. I have witnessed rudeness to newbies who ask questions. Granted, it was funny the first time, and I laughed so hard I thought I was going to get a hernia. I have witnessed rudeness by supposed Dommes/Doms to subs where someone comes in and just dumps everyone off the couch because She was in a bad mood or because He just likes to make rude comments. Some people are warned while others get away with it. There appears to be no consistency or objectivity. You will and should get banned for going into the room and being hostile and vulgar to others, repeatedly. I remember how it used to be handled. A person was whispered to calm down. If they continued ranting, they were warned. If they still persisted, they were frozen. The ban was the last resort. I have never gone into the chat and cussed anyone out, made terroristic threats, etc. You can't discuss the problems with the chat in chat as a group for fear of getting banned. I certainly didn't think the forums were the correct place since they are separate. I chose to visit the friends who left and found a new room. We were happily venting amongst ourselves. Over the past month or so, I had pretty much stopped hanging out in this chat. It had nothing at all to do with taking anybody's side. If that were the case, I would've quit coming as soon as the first ban occurred. I got busy in real life. I made a couple of new friends. With what I perceive as inequality (demand for respect while showing little or none) appearing more and more in chat and less people I knew in there, it lost its appeal for me. I am not the first person to jump onto any bandwagon. I like to make my own decisions, not play follow the leader. I have not nor do I intend to ask anyone to follow me. I don't tell my friends who they can and can't talk to. They know how to reach me when they have time and something to say. I will find other ways of diverting my mind away from my worries which involve less drama. And to quote one of my favorite movies of all time....that's all I'm gonna say about THAT.

[~hellish one~]

Personally I mod to have the place as somewhere that folks can come and enjoy, discuss the lifestyle, and have fun with friends. Those that want to play silly games are welcome to enjoy each others company in the new chat they have found.

I was going to let this one go, but I just kept coming back to it and gritting my teeth. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been edited, but...~shrugs~

Tasker, your reasons for wanting to moderate a chat room are good and very admirable. I think the problem is that there are quite a few of us who have stopped enjoying chat and having fun with friends, especially if said friends are getting banned. If they deserve to get banned, then so be it. By all means, ban them. But, I will never, for one second, believe that Red deserved it. Now for you to go on and basically say that those of us who disagree with the way things are going in chat nowadays are wanting to "play silly games"...~shakes my head~ Not nice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...I am...and you are. I just find it odd that by disagreeing or stating a differing opinion, now suddenly we are all playing silly games?

Do I miss Library chat? Sure I do. I miss all my friends in there. I miss the fun. But I refuse to go back...until something changes. Until then I guess I will just gather up my friends and go play silly games with them in a different chatroom. ~rme~ Anyone up for a game of Monopoly? lol

[His_blizzard]

I have been avoiding replying to this thread because not only am I totally in the dark about what actually happened, but also because this whole thing makes me very sad and brings back very painful memories of a similar situation that occured in the chatter that Dragon and I hung out in.
So I will just say this. I am staying out of this altercation because I have made many good friendships in the chat and I am not willing to let that go. I will continue to use the chatroom as long as I am welcome. I will chat with those that I consider friends and ignore those that annoy me. I wish some of my friends that left chat would come in occasionally and hang out with me, but I respect their decision to no longer do so if that is what they feel they must do. Sigh..... I can't say it doesn't sadden me though. :(
The online society is no different than RL. We are no better behaved nor are we worse. It is just easier to cut ourselves off when we are on the internet. If we had to face each other everyday as we do in 3D, maybe this could have been resolved at least to the point that some agreed to disagree. Maybe not.... Just my copper Tarn worth tonight. I really do love you guys! **HUGS** "Peace" ~blizz~

[goodgirl_85]

.
Yes I have seen what you have said happen numerous times .. and it is not always a Dom who is offensive.


I did not mean to suggest that it is only a Dom/Domme that is offensive. I have seen subs be offensive. And I will admit, In the situation I mentioned above, I was probably offensive myself in a self defense way.

I have also seen people be repeatedly asked not to PM without asking. A particular person, really, but again I am not one to mention names. I have only seen one mod in the chat room do something about this. He was warned, and then kicked. That is the one and only time I have seen this happen. And this person is a repeat repeat offender and one who hardly "chats" in chat. Just kinda trolls.
Again, I think something needs to be done. There needs to be consistancy involved where rules are concerned. Cuz if there isnt, then really no ban is fair.


girl

[Ocean_Soul]

So I wonder after all this will the room be somehow bettered by the extreme (IMO) actions taken. No longer plagued by the hate, bickering, and overall bad atmosphere that apparently must have existed in the previous room.

I'm at least glad that only 1 to 49 people had to be banned for the betterment of the 5000+ active members of the chat for it to become a better place and not some greater number (50+).

Maybe things will be better now. We shall see.

[SheepishJaina]

I did not mean to suggest that it is only a Dom/Domme that is offensive. I have seen subs be offensive. And I will admit, In the situation I mentioned above, I was probably offensive myself in a self defense way.

I have also seen people be repeatedly asked not to PM without asking. A particular person, really, but again I am not one to mention names. I have only seen one mod in the chat room do something about this. He was warned, and then kicked. That is the one and only time I have seen this happen. And this person is a repeat repeat offender and one who hardly "chats" in chat. Just kinda trolls.
Again, I think something needs to be done. There needs to be consistancy involved where rules are concerned. Cuz if there isnt, then really no ban is fair.


girl


If someone is constantly PMing you in chat without permission, Ask a mod to PM, and then tell them who it is. We can't stop those we don't know about. If there is no mod in the room at the time, Use the PrtScn button to take a screen shot of the unwanted PM, paste it to a photo/mspaint program, and save it, then email it to AC. Also, Many times new folks don't bother to read the rules about PMs, tell them in the main room (not the PM, as this will only perpetuate their PMing) that they have to ask permission and gain it in order to PM.

[goodgirl_85]

If someone is constantly PMing you in chat without permission, Ask a mod to PM, and then tell them who it is. We can't stop those we don't know about. If there is no mod in the room at the time, Use the PrtScn button to take a screen shot of the unwanted PM, paste it to a photo/mspaint program, and save it, then email it to AC. Also, Many times new folks don't bother to read the rules about PMs, tell them in the main room (not the PM, as this will only perpetuate their PMing) that they have to ask permission and gain it in order to PM.


In my case, I told the person a few times in the room, and then a Mod PMed me, telling me to tell them if the person Pmed me again. When he did, the person was warned, and then kicked.

However, I only mentioned it because the person that was PMing me, IS NOT NEW. I have never seen him actually TALK in the chat room. And I have seen him be told by other members (not mods) to not pm them unless they ask and I have seen this more once. And I have never seen him kicked except the one case. And he has been told both when mods are and are not in the room.

My point is, shouldn't he in all contents and purposes, be banned, for repeated failure to follow rules.


girl

[SheepishJaina]

I'm quite sure I know whom you mean, and if its the person I'm thinking of, we need the proof, documented proof (screen shots) of them PMing, and then they will be banned for failure to follow the rules.

[goodgirl_85]

I would think people constantly telling this person not to pm them without permission would be enough... and no offense sheep, as you are one of the ones i spoke about in my original post in this thread, but you can not say that he will be banned. It has been posted in this very thread that yes mods can ban someone but not permanently. Only AC has that power. And really now, how many people are going to take screen shots. I for one dont even know how to do that. He has been kicked by a mod at least once. Others have complained about him.... You would think that would be enough proof to know that he is not following chat rules.

[Ocean_Soul]

What's wrong with ignoring them? They have to be severely mentally disabled to be able to carry on PMs if they get nothing but ignored. And to ignore them all you have to do is look one line down. About 1/8" for most people.

[goodgirl_85]

Actually for me, it would be closing a box. For those who dont know there is a way ... i think in the settings section... to have your pms automatically pop up in a box.

I dont mind ignoring them, I was just making a point, as people are saying if you break rules you are out. There is no consistancy it seems, in the chat rooms. And by having no consistancy it makes all bans seem unfair and baised.

Why should Red, whom is loved by many in the chats, get banned when someone who hardly even talks in the room, and CONSISTENTLY breaks the rules is not banned? Because the powers that be say so? That makes it not fair. And again people are left with the thought of "which rules are ok to break this week and which are not"

girl

[Ocean_Soul]

Actually for me, it would be closing a box. For those who dont know there is a way ... i think in the settings section... to have your pms automatically pop up in a box.

I dont mind ignoring them, I was just making a point, as people are saying if you break rules you are out. There is no consistancy it seems, in the chat rooms. And by having no consistancy it makes all bans seem unfair and baised.

Why should Red, whom is loved by many in the chats, get banned when someone who hardly even talks in the room, and CONSISTENTLY breaks the rules is not banned? Because the powers that be say so? That makes it not fair. And again people are left with the thought of "which rules are ok to break this week and which are not"

Nods, I see where you were going. But you know people are just going to respond with the default "well if I heard about it I would have done something about it." Red was loved so therefore high profile and anything she might do is noticed. In a system where what you contribute to the group means nothing it's easy for the popular ones to get banned, maybe. Or maybe a mod was insulted and made good use of their power to solve their personal problem.

[SheepishJaina]

Now wait just a second.. You have never PMed me in chat about someone bothering you with PMs, so don't throw back in my face that I've not done anything. I may not be able to perma ban someone, but when I do ban a person, I email AC and he then perma bans them. I also told you in my post above how to take a screenshot. (hit PrtScn paste to a photo program, save)

Also, if you say in the main room that someone is PMing without permission, I speak to that person in PMs, so the whole room doesn't see the exchange. Just complaining about someone is not proof that they are actually breaking the rules. We know its going on, but without hard proof, I refuse to actually ban someone.

[cariad]

Please can this thread be kept to a discussion of the more general issues rather than slipping into the rights and wrongs of a particular situation.

Sheepish, thank you for the point about taking screenshots and saving them, and of course if the PM appears in the main chat screen it can be saved as part of the room log. As a side point, screenshots can also be pasted into things like word documents and saved there (just because not everyone is familiar using photo editing software).

However, I fear that I have to say in the current atmosphere which includes accusations of modification of room logs, screen shots, or series of screen shots are the best 'evidence'.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr - has a part of this site which I once saw as a second home, and which helped me through a very difficult time, really slipped, for whatever reason, to a state where I have to say that.

Very, very sad.

cariad

[Widget]

I too don't know all the politics and the things that have led to this thread being started. I do respect all the people that are posting in here and I wish to state again how proud I am that you are able to discuss this without things becoming a he said she said situation.

Very little post editing goes on here unless its breaking site rules and those of you who have been mods know this, those of us who are mods have to leave things here that we may not agree with if its not a flame or breaking rules. I do think that there (I hope so anyway) is not much more to say on this topic as I know that the chat admin knows this is here and has read it. Your voices have been heard.

I AM going to go into the chat room because I like to say hi in real life when I have time to all the people whos posts are so interesting and get to know them a bit better, I hope that some of you will wander in again and things will become better.

I for the most part do believe that (and maybe i am being an optimist in human nature) everyone here wants to be part of a great online community and the chat room is no exception. I am willing to give things a chance to improve, I hope that everyone here is as well.

Just my two cents as a member, not a moderator of this forum.

[Warbaby1943]

OK as a complete stranger to the chat room but trying to follow this thread I must ask, does "PM" have a different meaning in the chat room than it does here in the forum?

[Guest 91108]

Warbaby .. a PM in chat brings up a window similar to an IM window between you and one other. The Initial chat page under rules says that permission has to be asked chat room before PMing .. not in PM . Many new people often violate that rule as they do not take time to read and/or adhere to it.

[Warbaby1943]

Warbaby .. a PM in chat brings up a window similar to an IM window between you and one other. The Initial chat page under rules says that permission has to be asked chat room before PMing .. not in PM . Many new people often violate that rule as they do not take time to read and/or adhere to it.


Thanks Wolf

[Guest 91108]

No problem.

[Tasker]

I was going to let this one go, but I just kept coming back to it and gritting my teeth. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been edited, but...~shrugs~

Tasker, your reasons for wanting to moderate a chat room are good and very admirable. I think the problem is that there are quite a few of us who have stopped enjoying chat and having fun with friends, especially if said friends are getting banned. If they deserve to get banned, then so be it. By all means, ban them. But, I will never, for one second, believe that Red deserved it. Now for you to go on and basically say that those of us who disagree with the way things are going in chat nowadays are wanting to "play silly games"...~shakes my head~ Not nice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...I am...and you are. I just find it odd that by disagreeing or stating a differing opinion, now suddenly we are all playing silly games?

Do I miss Library chat? Sure I do. I miss all my friends in there. I miss the fun. But I refuse to go back...until something changes. Until then I guess I will just gather up my friends and go play silly games with them in a different chatroom. ~rme~ Anyone up for a game of Monopoly? lol

babt_girl(W) My sincerest appologies if my previous comment appeared to be directed at you. It was not. Reading back over my original post I can see I made the error of generalising way too much in an effort to avoid naming names.

The orginal one was about a small group that was started and has seem to have grown all due to the fact that someone complained to their S/O that they had been banned from chat and when in fact they HAD NOT been at the time and spiraled downhill from there. Unfortunatly others then jumped on the bandwagon, some for reasons of their own, some with an axe to grind, and some because they wanted to believe their friend.

The whole situation IMHO is sad as there have been members that have left of their own accord over this.

PMs without permission. Let a Mod know. I NEVER let that one pass without the PMer being at first given a polite warning, in the main room, that PMing without obtaining permission in the main room is not allowed. As sheepy has stated, we need to know who is doing it before we can deal with the problem.

One thing to bear in mind when you see a ban occur in chat. You do not know how many times that particular person may have been warned about their behaviour or breach of rules. Most warnings happen via PM. the room does not see this, nor should they. Peolpe do make mistakes, so they get a first polite warning in PM. The sole exception to this I use is for a first time PM without permission. This also lets everyone know and reminds them of that rule.

[goodgirl_85]

Sheep- I was not throwing anything in your face. Nor was I trying say that you weren't doing your job. All i was saying was that it seems the rules are being enforced inconsistently and that is one particular situation in which I can personally adhere to.

You say you know who it is I am talking about, you say others know it is going on... well point blank... He has been kicked from chat at least once because of this, and told politely by others that PMing is not allowed without permission.

And btw the PrntScrn button... yeah I wouldnt be able to give you any proof because i tried it after you told me about it and it didnt work.

girl

[Warbaby1943]

Sheep- I was not throwing anything in your face. Nor was I trying say that you weren't doing your job. All i was saying was that it seems the rules are being enforced inconsistently and that is one particular situation in which I can personally adhere to.

You say you know who it is I am talking about, you say others know it is going on... well point blank... He has been kicked from chat at least once because of this, and told politely by others that PMing is not allowed without permission.

And btw the PrntScrn button... yeah I wouldnt be able to give you any proof because i tried it after you told me about it and it didnt work.

girl

Can you highlight it, copy, and then paste it into a word processing program? Also maybe try "Alt PrtScrn."

[Jadetiger]

That is how I see it. Those who do not bend and "fall in line" are soon gone.

From the chat rules page.


Respect can have many levels...
I think respect is a very objective thing on the boards.
Also Respect is not always a certainty but is something that has to be earned.
There is only a very modest level of respect that is given freely to anyone. Civil respect. This is a level of respect that every one gets. Even people you meet on the street or at a store. And it works both ways, that is something often forgotten .
But it would seem that most ( those who have higher levels/positions) want the kind of Respect that is given to Royalty or Honored as those who have done something extraordinary are ... That just isn't going to happen in an online deal. IF it does happen it has to be earned. Not demanded.
Respect of a higher level is one which must be earned to be maintained and that is the problem here. It isn't earned and maintained daily.
Respect is given when it is deemed able and desireable, not because someone says you will respect me in a manner which pushes them above others ...
Another thing.. Respect is not given to things. they do not do anything to earn respect. No thing, whether that be a book or an idea or a situation is worthy of respect IMO. It is silly to demand such.
Think of it like this :
" You will respect my plate of sphagetti. "
see how odd that sounds ?

I also find it very odd that many see something wrong and others don't see anything at all.
makes me wonder ....

Ok i will end my long post on this and hope someone finds it valuable.


Glad I am not the only one who knows the difference between common courtesy and respect. No one has a right to demand respect but everyone has the right to be treated with common courstey. If someone wants me to fall in line then they had better live up to their own standards. I am not one for following someone I don’t respect.

[Psynymph]

Unfortunatly others then jumped on the bandwagon, some for reasons of their own, some with an axe to grind, and some because they wanted to believe their friend.

The whole situation IMHO is sad as there have been members that have left of their own accord over this.



~sorry cariad~

i take offense to the "bandwagon" remark because, to me, it implies that the people that posted in this thread are merely following a general idea, not thinking on their own. and this is of course assuming you were speaking mainly of this particular thread, considering you are posting in it.

i had absolutely no intentions of spreading my opinion or convincing those of it. many people have asked what exactly this thread was about, or what was going on, and not a single time have i attempted to explain to them.

i started this thread solely to voice my opinion of a problem i perceived. i'm not particularly friendly with any of those that have been banned, not anymore friendly than i am/was with you, Tasker, AC and delia. i am not taking sides, except my own side.

And obviously, there is a real problem, for SO many people to feel basically the same as i do. i was just the first to actually publicly say something, well besides Red.

And as DTT pointed out, apparently there is SOME sort of problem that needs to be addressed seeing as so many people have said they will no longer be apart of the chat room.

So maybe instead of everyone getting offended, maybe they should simply take an unbiased step back and look at it from a different, impersonal point of view.

Maybe instead of getting angry at those of us that chose to maturely voice our opinions that aren't the same of yours, you should actually listen.

There is no easy solution to this problem. It's a pretty big, but also delicate problem. It involves individuals and i understand completely that in this situation it's very hard for sides not to get offended. i realize that people felt as if they were under attack.

But no one, from either "side", has been told not to voice their own concerns, suggestions, or opinions. Because that is exactly what this thread was made for.

And Tasker for the record, only maybe half of this was actually directed at you. The rest was at the rest of the individuals on the "other side".

[Guest 91108]

Can you highlight it, copy, and then paste it into a word processing program? Also maybe try "Alt PrtScrn."

You can't copy and paste in the chat windows. only in the input part of the window.
makes it very difficult to save anything needed.

[Widget]

OK this thread is rapidly deteriorating into a he said she said thing. I will lock this if it continues. Please keep the discussion civil and constructive or it needs to be closed to give people a time out.

[kewlie]

I chose to leave the chat room a few months ago. As far as I can tell it was prior to some of the problems alot of these posts are referring to.

I mainly left due to people not being treated fairly. I also found that some people could give their opinion and it was fine. However, if other people gave their opinion they were criticized or made fun of by certain people. I also got tired of the last minute made up rules, it seemed like they changed quite often.

All of the people that are speaking out and saying how they truly feel - I APPLAUD THEM!!!!

I also feel that there are alot of people that are, or have been, unhappy due to things that have apparently happened in the chat room. Many of them haven't spoken up until now. I am sure there are some that still won't speak up.

However, I don't see that 1 or 2 banned people can be causing this much of an uproar. I think there are major problems.

We use to have a blast in that room. I met so many fantastic people.

As some have said in earlier posts - It is really sad!!!

[Warbaby1943]

OK this thread is rapidly deteriorating into a he said she said thing. I will lock this if it continues. Please keep the discussion civil and constructive or it needs to be closed to give people a time out.
That sure as hell is one way to kill a thread with very interesting comments. Another way would be to actually look for flaming and go from there. Why punish the masses for the sins of a few? I have always hated when that happens.

Some people need to vent and a little latitude, as long as no flaming occurs, should be tolerated.

[cariad]

When I first saw this thread I anguished over what the correct action was. And I will be honest, if Rabbit had been around I would very happily have thrown the whole thing at him. I know that he has always had a guideline that chat is a different part of the site, and discussion about chat should happen in chat, as much as discussion about the academy happens in the academy. However it is clear from what has been said that this thread is the result of a number of members of this community feeling that they are unable to that.

Most of us live in countries where freedom of speech, and the freedom to think differently to those in power, and the freedom to say so is a treasured right. People are rightly also protected by law against defamation of character.

Unfortunately there is a very fine line between venting and flaming (defamation). What is written as a vent, may be read as a vent by people who 'support' the case being put, and as a flame but people who think otherwise. This is part of the staff team's very difficult juggling act, at all times, not just in this thread.

I believe that is what was behind Widget's post. Whilst the discussion is constructive, with controlled emotions, people able to express ideas which they have not previously felt able to, then it is healthy and will stay open. If it gets into a he said, she said match, where emotions are rising, then it may be closed for a short while, just to let things simmer down again.

cariad

[_ID_]

Please can this thread be kept to a discussion of the more general issues rather than slipping into the rights and wrongs of a particular situation.

Sheepish, thank you for the point about taking screenshots and saving them, and of course if the PM appears in the main chat screen it can be saved as part of the room log. As a side point, screenshots can also be pasted into things like word documents and saved there (just because not everyone is familiar using photo editing software).

However, I fear that I have to say in the current atmosphere which includes accusations of modification of room logs, screen shots, or series of screen shots are the best 'evidence'.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr - has a part of this site which I once saw as a second home, and which helped me through a very difficult time, really slipped, for whatever reason, to a state where I have to say that.

Very, very sad.

cariad

I highlighted the part of this post that I thought expressed what others are thinking. For the Site Admin to utter it. I think tells quite a lot about the underlying problem.

One problem I have with everything thats been said. AC himself has not spoken, only delia. Sure she spoke for him, but I believe that leaves it open for the he said she said problem. As well as leaves open the question, if she speaks for him here, does she do so in the chat? If they are live in, the IP address that would be logged during the chat would be the same. Therefore any logs to 'prove' anything would actually prove nothing.

I don't have an ax to grind, and I don't have a problem letting people know what I think of them. I am not taking sides, and I am not playing little games. To say such things sounds very adolescent to me, but then again, that is just an opinion I have. Perhaps other people feel statements like that are dignified and responsible.

I don't come into the chat very much, as I don't have very much time to do so. I don't do it on other sites either, so I don't feel I am jumping on any bandwagons. The one time I had a problem with a chatter, I did do the screen shots, but only after a mod instructed me to do so. I didn't see it in the rules, so I didn't know what the protocol was.

Another problem with being able to express problems your having, with the chat. If we were to express how we felt in the chat room, like we are here. We would be banned, as that would be 'disrespecting' the chat.

It is difficult to know what 'feelings' are being expressed, since all of this is nothing but text, or emoticons.

[Warbaby1943]

When I first saw this thread I anguished over what the correct action was. And I will be honest, if Rabbit had been around I would very happily have thrown the whole thing at him. I know that he has always had a guideline that chat is a different part of the site, and discussion about chat should happen in chat, as much as discussion about the academy happens in the academy. However it is clear from what has been said that this thread is the result of a number of members of this community feeling that they are unable to that.

Most of us live in countries where freedom of speech, and the freedom to think differently to those in power, and the freedom to say so is a treasured right. People are rightly also protected by law against defamation of character.

Unfortunately there is a very fine line between venting and flaming (defamation). What is written as a vent, may be read as a vent by people who 'support' the case being put, and as a flame but people who think otherwise. This is part of the staff team's very difficult juggling act, at all times, not just in this thread.

I believe that is what was behind Widget's post. Whilst the discussion is constructive, with controlled emotions, people able to express ideas which they have not previously felt able to, then it is healthy and will stay open. If it gets into a he said, she said match, where emotions are rising, then it may be closed for a short while, just to let things simmer down again.

cariad
I do understand your dilemma and can sympathize with you. However, I still feel it best to deal individually with violations and leave the thread itself alone. If you want to kill a thread just temporarily close it. My father always said there was no more permanent a tax than a temporary one. I believe the same principal applies here.

If I may suggest an idea I got from the other forum we all know about, they have come up with a separate area which allows more freedom of speech and emotions as long as it is not an outright flame. Maybe we need something very similar here.

If "he said," "she said" statements are mentioned in the right context without calling the author any derogatory names, in my opinion, I don't see that as flaming. Still I wouldn't want to be in your shoes having to make those decisions.

I just really hate to see any thread of substance closed even if the intention is temporary. How may threads have survived a temporary closing? If you want to give it time to settle down couldn't the same result be accomplished by dealing with the guilty parties individually thus leaving the thread itself to thrive or die of its own accord?

Just for the record I have no idea what goes on in chat nor do I really care but I find this one of the most interesting thread going right now.

[annie]

This was originally a post in response to ID's comment about AC responding...

That has been edited several several times... not because it was against what ID had stated. Not because it was against AC...

Why? because no matter what is said at this point... no matter who says it... be it AC, Rabbit, Tiger, or sally sue smith who has never been here before... it appears as though minds are made up and nothing can change that. That is everyone's right as it should be...

Life is never 100% fair from anyone's perspective... unfortunately... that is life.

[caged]

It's disturbing to read suggestions of physical threats. I find it immensely difficult to believe that any of the 'well-known/popular' recently banned chatters did anything like that (though I'm not omniscient of course). Creating such an impression, even inadvertantly, would be very unfortunate if it's not the case.

[cariad]

Warbaby, thank you for your comments - and honestly I do carefully consider things such as the points which you make.

If an individual errs in a post then a member of staff does deal with that as a separate matter - threads are closed, either temporarily or otherwise, when the whole thread starts going off kilter.

But your words are not falling on stony ground, and if this thread is closed for any reason, for any length of time they will have been considered.

cariad

[Psynymph]

caged- what threats of physical violence do you speak of?

[orchid]

cariad,
i think you are doing a great job of dealing with a touchy subject
i am pleased that this thread has been left open, as obviously, there are many things that people feel need to be said.
i just hope that it all works out in the end.

[Widget]

If there is any threats please message an admin right away, we need to know. All I meant by closing the thread for a time was exactly that. Not deleting or stopping everyone from speaking but giving a time out to it. I may not have put it as well as I could have but I think Cariad has summed it up in her follow up posts. I see that things are being much better in terms of manner since then and I am not in any way as I said earlier against people talking about how they feel, only the thread slipping into an arugument about who did what. I think we can all agree thats not helpful.

Again however if there is threats we need to know and please PM one of us.

[caged]

If there is any threats please message an admin right away, we need to know.

Again however if there is threats we need to know and please PM one of us.

My mention of threats seems to have caused confusion, let me clarify. I was referrring to Delia's reference to 'threats to my physical safety' on an early page of this thread.

[Rabbit1]

once again I will say this ---Chat and the forum just share a server ---they are run by different Admin and mods ----their rules are not the same as our rules because it is a different type of site ----if you have a beef with Chat then you need to contact AC who is the admin in chat---or Tiger who owns both the chat and the forums -----if you have a beef with the forum and how it is run then you need to contact me or one of the Admin here or Tiger

This is not the place to air out your problems with chat ---most people could care less what goes on there ---if you do not like the chat site do not go there----

Post like this serve no real purpose here ---other than a bitch and complain and usually stirs up others ----then someone starts flaming ---and member end up banned ----so I am closing this thread ---and I do not want to see any more like it ---like I said you have a complaint about chat ---contact AC or Tiger ---you can contact Tiger at webmaster@bdsmlibrary.com