Whats the difference really in it? I'm not sure but I know to some people there is a difference.
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Whats the difference really in it? I'm not sure but I know to some people there is a difference.
One is fiction gorean with some wonderful ideas the other is mostly real with a huge amount of ideas.
Gor is non-consensual. It presumes a society that supports chattel slavery. So... imo, it starts, in real life, as a role-play.
I was in a Gorean relationship a long time ago, when I was a white silk kajira. I was involved in Gor before I was into anything else that was BDSM. To me Gor is a form of BDSM, only I see it as roleplaying. There are Goreans who claim to live the lifestyle, but I personally don't see how it is truly possible. I simply could not remain as a kajira. I just could not get into that mindset, so I left Gor and have never looked back.
Well, KizuOrama, from what I've seen--online that is, Gor is where the men would rather fight than fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by KizuOrama
Alex you irreverant thing.... :D
My view is that it's not easy to explain such things- just as not all D/s relationships are alike, the same seems to be true with Gor.
Obviously Gor is related to some sci-fi series of books, but few Goreans seem to agree on the 'one true way'
Just as few in the D/s lifestyle seem to agree on the 'one true way'
Just put 'Gor' into a search engine- you'll be innundated by sites.
D/s to me is where one gives their power to another, for guidance, bondage games, kinky sex or a combination of all.
lets face it bdsm is a fantasy one that a few lucky ones get to know and live. I thank the gods and goddess each day that I am one of the lucky ones.
If they go about the life needing fiction as a role model then that is fine with me.
Unfortunately, the one thing they almost all agree on is that there is a one true way. They'll just squabble endlessly over whose way is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojo
gb,
The ones that say one true way you need to get far away from. The people that have been around for a while no what horse puckkie that is.
Most of us have a way that works for us but quickly acknowledge that there is a lot of ways other then just ours.
Ok, first off. Like EVERY OTHER way of life, Goreans span a large spectrum: from the r/l role players (i.e. people that dress like the fiction books & live their day to day lives enveloped in the fictious world) to the r/l people who use the practical ideals & protocols in their daily lives to the o/l world where chatrooms are created to re-invent the Gorean planet. I have met Goreans who fit into all these various categories and I would say this: Who are we to judge? Just as you do not wished to be judged for the lifestyle choices you make, who are we to judge Goreans (on any level) for the choices that they make? We aren't. So perhaps a bit of decorum & less tunnel vision would make this thread more accepting, hm? Just a thought.
Now, back to the original question from Kiz. BDSM is an umbrella term used to encompass all the various ways of life & levels of kink that can be found. There is no "one thing" that "is" BDSM; in fact, when you ask different people what BDSM is an acroynm for, there are various answers; for instance: B=Bondange, D= Dominance or discipline, S= sadism or submission or service, M=masochism. It means whatever you want it to mean for you. In other words, make of it what you will.
Underneath the umbrella of BDSM, there are many different "kinks" and "lifestyles" that are chosen by different people, depending on their desires & interests. Gorean is one such lifestyle. Gor is a fictitious planet, created by John Norman (and you'll have to excuse my spelling, it's been a long night) through his many books. I personally have read over 1/2 the series, and I find them incredibly difficult to plow through, as I believe Norman suffers from a complete lack of literary prowess. That being said, the books do have some good, salient points that can be taken away from them & used as part of a lifestyle.
Some Goreans choose to live their lives in accordance with the books as much as practically possible. And while this may be fantastic for a them, generally it won't work for many people, because the planet of Gor tends to be more of a fantasy Eutopia, rather then a reality.
Many other people call themselves Gorean because they choose to live with the ideals & many of the protocols that are expressed in the Norman books, and are actually quite in line with those found under the "Old School" philosophy of BDSM (long story & history on that school, catch me later if you want to know more--I have been trained under that philosophy). Generally these types of folks believe in the strict slave-Owner boundaries, certain protocols to be observed, etc., but don't try to live an unrealistic existence--they mesh the ideals of Gor into their daily lives.
Then there are the o/l Goreans. The ones who only live the Gorean lifestyle o/l through various chatrooms, and espouse to know much about the Gorean way of life. Generally (and I say GENERALLY), these "Goreans" (use of quotes is intentional) are the ones that give the Gorean ideals a bad name--perhaps they have read the books, perhaps they haven't... but they live the books in an o/l existance that often borders on obsessive-compulsive. They have very strict vocal and physical protocols o/l & they are often quick to rebuke those that "do not know." That isn't to say ALL o/l Goreans are bad (definitely not!) but generally, this is the "group" of Goreans that give the r/l Goreans a headache.
As always, people can take it or leave it, or take a little & incorporate it into their lives, and leave the pieces which they don't enjoy.
Be weary of anyone who espouses to be a full-fledged Gorean, until you actually really know them--because often, the o/l folks, who haven't EVER "lived it", have no idea how unrealistic their ideals are. And for the r/l Goreans, they often will lurk in the shadows, careful not to draw too much attention to themselves for fear of reprisal (hello, the posts in this thread are a great example).
If you want to know more about Gorean as a philosophy & lifestyle, there are people here I can put you in contact with, and also some good websites that discuss the philosophy & ideals of the Gorean lifestyle.
Always remember: What works for you isn't what works for everyone.
Play hard, play safe,
delia
I have just spent the last 24 hours working with a former slave that has been convinced by a gorean that she needs that way of life to be a "real" slave. Some of the things he wants are real and right but so much of it is "I want this dream slave that has no rights, no power of thought or will to be a person".
These are the assholes that make it hard to warm up to the lifestyle in general. He doesn't believe that he has to train her that she has to become the perfect slave without any false steps. That he has no need to know and meet her needs she is there to serve him.
That is the kind of crap that gives abusers and posers the mantel of being a Dom without accepting any of the responsibility to his poor victim.
I bet that he hasn't had a "slave" last very long with him since he has the mantel of all ways be right and no need to work or earn her trust and respect. He push this lady past anything reasonable and then left when she snapped. At that point she was well beyond a limit that she has a barrier that is very hard for her. Instead of any acknowledgement of her effort he laughed at her for faultering at this boundery.
Apologize to Dragon and his blizzard I know that they have taken the good parts of Gor and left the rest and that is great but it is also the tenants that I was taught was right for D/s, but with the flexibility to alter what isn't right for the couple.
Delia,
You missed the point of my "flame" I think. I stand by what I said he is in my opinion an asshole and any who believe what he does are the same. I wasn't limiting it to Gor but to any that feels that they have the one and only true way and if that way includes the Dom being like that then yes I will stand by what I said.
Gor may be great for role play but when taken into real life without making any exceptions for it then it is harmful.
Just as I would have the same opinion about an out right sadist that lives only to inflict pain is not part of any lifestyle that will ever claim me.
I have stayed out of this thread until now because after the first several posts I really didn't think that any of my thoughts would be welcome. But I decided to say what I have to say and everyone can either take it, or leave it.
Master and I consider ourselves to be Gorean. However, whatever pre-conceived notions you have of what that means, are probably wrong. Dragon and blizz coined the term "kajiramissive" to define blizz's role, and I think that sums up our relationship pretty well.
Firstly, most people's experience with Gor only consists of roleplayers. These people use venues like IRC originally, and Second Life more recently, to act out as if they live on Gor. It is entirely different from those who are Gorean in "real life" and the roleplayers have developed a sub-culture all their own. If you want to talk about that you will have to do it with someone else because I have no experience in this area.
We don't believe we live on Gor. We don't wish we lived on Gor. We don't consider Gor to be some kind of Utopia. We understand that the Gor series was a work of fiction, and do not treat it as a kind of bible for how to live. We simply consider some of the ideas explored in the series to be very relevant to our lives and belief-systems.
The above paragraph is so tantamount to what else I have to say, I almost feel like posting it twice.
If you ask 100 different Goreans what Gor is, you will get 100 different answers. Here is what it means to us.
- We believe that men are "generally" dominant, and women are "generally" submissive. Notice the word generally. Absolutely there are dominant women and submissive men (and switches all over the place), but that generally, naturally, that is the split. This is like saying that "generally, humans are heterosexual." Sure there are homosexuals, and bisexuals, and all sorts of various inbetweensexuals, but generally, most people are straight. This is an observation, and not a judgement.
- We believe in the values of Honour, Respect, and Obedience.
- We believe that submission is taken, and not given. Now here is where a lot of people have a problem. This doesn't mean that Master just randomly grabs women on the street and makes them submit. It means that in our relationship Master takes my submission, and it is not some "gift" that I give him and are free to take back at any time. He holds the power. Of course I was willing to give it, but the important thing is Master took it. On our first night together (in the biblical sense) he put a training collar around my neck, stripped me naked, grabbed the collar and ordered me to my knees. It was fantastic.
- We believe that different slaves have different values, and that a high-valued slave brings great honour to a man. A smart, entertaining, beautiful slave is worth a great deal, and would be desired by others. A man takes great pride in owning such a girl.
- My job is to be pleasing. His job is to protect me and care for me so that I can be pleasing. An oft-repeated phrase in our house is "a happy slave is a pleasing slave."
- We add and subtract other ideas and concepts as it suits us (or rather how it suits Master). "Traditionally" Gor only uses pain as punishment. A disobedient slave would receive a whipping or a beating, but a Master wouldn't take any pleasure or enjoyment out of it, and neither would the girl. However, we enjoy S&M play... so we do it.
- We believe in the concept of ownership, however a permanent collar is not something that is offered, but instead is begged for by a slave. The idea here is that begging the collar is the last free choice completed by the slave. Once the steel is locked around my neck (I don't have my permanent collar yet), it is no longer my choice to remove it. I can beg for release, but there is no guarantee it will be granted. Collaring is a very serious deal. (Disclaimer: When I say I won't have any other free choices, this does not mean I become some kind of mindless automaton. I still have the ability to make all of the little mundane decisions we do on a day-to-day basis. It just means that I no longer have a choice about our relationship. AND it also doesn't make me so stupid that I will stay in an abusive relationship just "because". In that case, all bets are off.)
So that is a brief overview of what we do. For us, it is how we live our whole lives, and not just what we do in the bedroom. I realize that a lot of people into BDSM also live so in and out of the bedroom, so this is not a exclusive concept. It is just what works for us.
Overall I think Gor is misunderstood. There is another active thread on here about trusting vanillas to understand what we do. Well when you are Gorean we have to go through this twice... vanillas don't understand, and often-times neither do BDSMers. So we are the outcasts within the outcasts.
To be honest I am a little disappointed in this thread so far. Not from the OP, but the posts that came after. There are many Goreans lurking around this forum, and none of them have had the inclination to post anything.... I would suspect because they don't feel like being judged, or jumped all over. For a supposedly open and respectful forum, this thread has the stink of judgement before anyone even posted anything.
I don't think that my beliefs are right for everyone, but they are right for me. Your mileage may vary. I also acknowledge that there are assholes who are Gorean, or who at least claim to be so. But there are just as many asshole BDSM Dominants. Heck, there are just as many asshole vanilla guys. So don't judge us all based on a couple of idiots.
If anyone has any honest questions, I would be pleased to answer them. I also hope a couple of the other Goreans around here have the courage to speak out.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
Assholes happen. Your right I don't agree with all you hold as right but if it works for you then great. When it is imposed on others as the only true way I can feel the hair on the back of my neck rise. This is true for all not just Goreans.
Those that use it as a background for sane decisions then great. Those that think that it is the only way I doubt their sanity. That is not just to gor but to any way of life. If it works for you great.
I have seen though these guys that know the one true way to often and mostly they burn through women without ever admitting that she has value.
Thank you for your post lily.
I first discovered my attraction to D/s and BDSM through a Gorean chat room.
I didn't learn very much there, as the place was a bit too intense for me.
I have since heard snippets about Gor, but really couldn't quite figure out what it was.
Although I have never fully understood Gor, I understand the basic premise of it, when others live it in real life.
It is rather funny though that what lily has described would be something that I would embrace and live if I had a Dominant to share it with.
Absolutely spot on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
I think it's this way with any person or group who has an extreme belief in something. Whether it's hard core Gore or extremist religion it's easy to see the parallels. Each believing that they are right—that their particular faction is the only true one; wanting to indoctrinate others with what they truly believe, and that's the bit that bugs me. When it affects me or those close to me, or they try to shove it down me, I have a problem.
And to all you Goreans out there --Tal and welcome. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by lily27
so, from what im reading in this thread, if one were to sum it all up, would this be correct in everyone's veiw?- That the basic difference between mainstream BDSM and Gor is that Goreans base their relationship to each other on the idea that (in general) a male dominated relationship is the natural order of things, the main trend of human nature.. then borrowing culture and protocol from the Gor books (etc) , as they find fitting, to structure their behaviour towards each other and other like minded Goreans?
Do i have it right?*smile*
We had an excellent discussion on this topic last year but it has fallen into the depths of this folder. Page 11 of topics I think its on these days since no one has added to it in a year.
I recommend it to anyone wanting to know what some "gorean" members here had to say as well as what non-goreans said on this topic.
Here is the direct link: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8473
I would like to add that while Sir_Russell's posts bother me a great deal because I sense some intolerance with any beliefs other then his own. I do believe I understand the circumstances which has caused him to feel that way as it relates to some gorean "Masters".
I also do not agree with "abuse" towards any other person, gorean slave or not. Sadly there are people out there that do not treat women the way I would do it and I am sure Sir_Russell's and my own perspective on this is not that far apart.
I think the gist of the problem is that most real Masters have honor, pride, and skills while others that call themselves "Master" just want a piece of ass to order around without having to accept the huge responsibility that goes with having a human possession in your care.
Many wannabe doms use the gorean lifestyle as cover for their lack of knowledge and ability. Which in turn hurts us all by the association since we wear the label "gorean" and many people just never bother to look pass the label to see us as the people we really are.
I don't want to launch into a rehash of what we said a year ago I will just recommend everyone to go read it for themselves.
[QUOTE=Ironwulf;651782]we wear the label "gorean" and many people just never bother to look pass the label to see us as the people we really are.
/QUOTE]
Your'e Gorean ?
lily i have to say......,wow!
*, that was like hearing poetry*
, wish you would post in the gorean agora, the only reason i started that lil social group was to help field all the questions i get every day about gor
i know a lot of people are clickish about the subject, and have strong views on it, like your not a real gorean becuz of this or that or your just an online gorean etc etc crap
i was pretty much outright attacked my self when i first came to the site by several people because i used the word kajira in my profile and still occasionally get attacked even nowdays,,(go figure) but after some consideration and lots of help from my owner i found the courage to finally stand up to the attacks and not lurk or hide anymore
as for the old schoolish style comments refering to those goreans into bdsm ( and yes not all goreans are into it, quiet the oposite from what ive seen believe it or not) the old school approach may have very well been what influenced Dr Lange (ie Norman) to use as his slave/Master phycological frame work in the series, i mean the books are written mostly "back in the day" allmost as a reactionary movement to the onset of feminisim, heck if we go back in time to the late 1800's Norman and his goreans would have probably been called trancendentalists
@ Kate
I am not sure what your wanting to know with your question. You posted to the Gorean thread (linked above) back when you first joined the forum and I assume you read the thread before you posted so you should know what my Gorean status is.
Thanks denuseri... I get annoyed about being judged from both sides personally! I think what most annoyed me about this thread is that the first few answers to a legitimate question about what Gor is were flippant (and untrue) remarks from non-Goreans. It certainly got my hackles up, and I finally had to say something.
I should post where now?
hugs and kissess np lily i so know where your coming from,,,,go check out the gorean agora in the socialclubs section, er social groups found on your profile page under "join social groups", its a thing i started here just for teaching those interested in gor and i really think your inputs would benifit all conserned,
Your Gor lifestyle doesn't sound so different than our (stripey and I) BDSM lifestyle. The only thing that would prevent me from being interested in Gor is that it all sounds a little too much like religion--one true way and all. BDSM is fairly new to me, and until my membership in this forum I had never heard of Gor. So, I have no preconceptions of Gor, only what I have learned here--and the little that stripey knew (the best analogy that she could come up with is that Goreans were like the Star Trek "trekkies" of BDSM. LOL. Not that she meant anything by it, just that it was the best uninformed analogy that she could come up with at the time. After reading all of this, I have a much better understanding of Gor, not that I am interested in personal involvement with Gor, but I am intrigued by some of the concepts that are not so different from my own. Thanks for the useful post!Quote:
Originally Posted by lily27