Negative and positive punishments

Isn't this place amazing--I find that I'm always learning something new here on this forum. Like yesterday, in the Personals sub-forum, I came across a thread posted by leighK81 that mentioned something that I hadn't ever heard of before. It read in part:

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Positive punishments work the best on me. When it comes to negative punishments I'm most likely to partake in what was denied of me. If this is to happen though I have a very guilty conscious and would automatically tell you. For example: If you tell me that I'm not allowed to have any refined sugar for 1 week and 2 days later I eat candy bar - I'll feel so guilty that I'll tell you as soon as I talk to you again. The best form of punishment that you can give me is to tell me that I have disappointed you."

Having contacted leighK81, and checked it out on the net, I can tell you all who are as naive ... well, ok, as ignorant, as I was, that positive and negative punishments aren't strictly a bdsm terms but rather more to to do with psychology, although to be fair, a lot of bdsm certainly is psychological.

So, what is it?

Positive punishment is when an adverse stimulus follows a behavior or action. E.g. You misbehave you get your ass spanked. Something is added; you are given something that will make you not want to do what ever it was you weren't' suppose to be doing the first place, again. Positive punishment is used a lot in animal and more particularly dog training.

Negative punishment, on the other hand, is when a stimulus is taken away following a certain behavior or action. E.g. You misbehave your dominant takes away you masturbation privileges. I suppose this type of punishment could be considered as more subtle but still effective, depending on what exactly is taken away. I mean, any submissive who's been given the silent treatment, will know how very upsetting and frustrating it can be to have your dominant withdraw his attention.

There, I think I've explained it correctly--certainly, if I haven't, feel free to correct me.

So, if you're a submissives, which do you feel is more effective on you? And, if you're a dominant, which method are you most likely to use? And, for everyone, why do think the one you are punished/punish with is effective for your situation?

I think the best option is a compromise of both. To me, however, any punishment regardless of what it is is bad.

The greatest punishment in BDSM is a negative punishment, however. The removal of a Master or Mistress's attention. This one is almost guaranteed to work as a punishment rather than play as some BDSM punishments can be mistaken as by the sub. Its the old, old joke... Masochist: Beat me, hurt me, spank me! Sadist: No. :)

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Originally Posted by leighK81

"....The best form of punishment that you can give me is to tell me that I have disappointed you..."

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Exactly right!

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

any submissive who's been given the silent treatment, will know how very upsetting and frustrating it can be to have your dominant withdraw his attention.

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Yes, truly I think for me would be to have his attention denied, it would already be heartbreaking enough that I disappointed him but to know he's so upset with me, he can't talk to me just makes me frett in the worst way

So hence, always be a good gurl *bats eyelashes prettily* hehe

Since everyone is different it seems reasonable to me that both types of punishment may have its useful purposes depending oh how the one being punished reacts to it.

I try never to use as a punishment something that we both enjoy. I don't want my submissive to equate spankings with bad things. Instead, I usually use positive reinforcement to encourage the behavior I want and taking my attention away to discourage behavior I don't want. Ordering her to sit in the corner for a while or having her kneel naked on the floor writing lines is usually all I need to do to ensure that she doesn't disobey again. Fucking her senseless after she completes all her tasks is normally enough to guarantee further compliance.

I do encourage her bratty behavior, though, for play punishment but that's not the same thing. ;)

In my view, punishment serves two main purposes: 1.) to ensure there isn't a repeat incident of that action; and 2.) to ensure the submissive knows what they did & why it was wrong. Anything beyond those parameters, in my view, make it less punishment & more something else...

Everyone deals with misbehavior in their relationship differently. First off, as several have suggested, there is a difference between actual misbehavior & something like "brattiness," which isn't actual misbehavior, it's just acting up/out to get a desired response from the Dominant. And often that "desired response" includes spanking, etc. But let's call it what it is and not punishment. Because calling this type of response punishment tends to confuse folks & often leads to a blurring of the definition of punishment, and, in turn, to the blurring of lines between acceptable & unacceptable behavior. It's the Dominant's job, imo, to ensure that the lines of what is acceptable & unacceptable are clear to both the Dominant & the submissive. Bratty behavior to illicit a particular response is "acceptable" behavior, as the Dominant doesn't really "punish" the submissive, but actually doles out a programmed response that the submissive desires to achieve by doing that behavior.

Now, as for actual punishment (to get to Alex's point in the thread), there are different ways to punish, and no way works for any 2 submissives: you have to find what works for you & yours, and use it effectively. For some, positive punishment works the best: giving the submissive extra tasks, or a beating of some form & degree, etc, etc. For others, negative punishment works better: take away privileges, take away time/contact with the Dominant, etc. Just some things to consider...

1. Proportionality: Everyone has heard the old adage, "Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill." Well, that works for punishment as well. Make sure the punishment is proportional to the action. If it's something serious, use a more serious punishment. But be careful not to overreact: this leads to 2 different issues. First, if you overreact, the submissive is apt to be petrified about screwing up at all, ever. Second, how will the submissive ever learn what things are more important then others?

2. Communication: This sort of feeds into proportionality... but do be cogniscent (sp?) to make sure you communicate why the action was wrong, how to fix it for next time, and exactly what the punishment will be. There is nothing worse then not knowing why you are being punished. Also, submissives WILL screw up (*gasp* I know! shocker!)--it's just part of life. The submissive needs to feel that they are loved & cared for, and that sometimes, punishment just isn't what's needed: the submissive will have beat themselves up enough, or maybe it's just something minor that requires a fix & talk, rather then punishment.

3. Time it Right: Much like a child, a submissive's transgressions come often at awkward times in awkward places. When possible, punish right away: the incident is fresh in both of your minds, and the punishment will then be over & you can both move on, so that neither of you dwells on it for hours or days. However, sometimes you can't punish right away: either the Dominant needs time to lower their anger level, or you're in an inappropriate setting (hellooo public), or it's something that the Dominant wants to think through before doling (sp?) out. In any case, timed wrong, the punishment ends up doing more harm then good. So it's something to think about.

4. Never punish when angry: This goes for both the Dominant AND the submissive. Never punish when you're angry!!! It leads to nothing but more harm. Take the time to cool off. If you're the Dominant, just say "I need space." Just be careful to not act out of impulse, but rather, act out of rational thought. You will regret being angry & impulsive in a day or two, but the damage that occurs can last forever. I knew of a Dominant that was so angry he beat his submissive to such a degree she had to go to the ER. Again, be careful & safe.

5. Know your submissive: I can't say this enough, and I say it to EVERYONE I know as many times as possible: EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!!! And EVERY relationship is different. What works for one couple won't work for another. O/l punishments, by their nature, differ from r/l punishments: just as o/l offenses/actions differ from r/l ones. So punish accordingly. Some submissives also do better with positive punishment (beating of some form, corner time, etc.) v. negative punishment (time away from their Dominant, loss of privileges). Some submissives will also beat themselves up like crazy, others need a "talking to" and a "firm hand." Some submissives need instantanious punishment, some need to have time to think about their transgressions before they are punished. Bottom Line? Know your submissive!

6. The Result: The result of a punishment should be that the submissive knows what they did, knows why it was wrong, and BOTH the submissive & the Dominant feel closure on the incident. You can't punish & then bring the incident up again in a few days. Punish & move on. As T likes to say "shit happens." So does stupidity--so take it at face value, give the proper, proportional punishment, and then both of you can move on. How many dozens of times have I heard, "My Dominant put me on cum restriction for two weeks because of ______." What purpose does this serve? It continues to draw out the incident, it doesn't usually serve a punishment purpose (does it make the submissive correct their transgression? does it make them know not to do it again?), and it ends up turning into something that is more a hinderance then a learning experience. Get creative, find out what makes your submissive tick, make sure you are giving appropriate punishment.


As I have droned on & on, I will now hop off my soapbox...

As always, be safe & use some COMMON SENSE!

I believe the word 'punishment' in the original post is a bit of a misnomer. These concepts are actually derived from the idea of positive and negative reinforcement. The main idea being, while it can be described as a removal of a stimulus, not all negative reinforcement is bad. An example would be, in classical psychology, a desired action is performed and an electric stimulus (shock) is removed. Along the same lines, positive reinforcement isn't always good. ex. A dog that has a tendency to wander out of your yard, has a shock collar around his neck that shocks him when he gets past a certain point. The shock is being given for an undesired action and therefor is the positive reinforcer.

I hope that made as much sense as it did in my head.

KK

B.F. Skinner is doing the happy dance in his grave right now over this discussion.

Since we are talking about changing behavior, 'positive' and 'negative' can be somewhat unnecessary and totally confusing in defining what will and won't change behavior. Basically, all those two words signify is the adding (positive) and taking away (negative) of a stimulus. At times, the same exact stimulus can qualifiy as either positive and negative, and can even more confusingly, can be so at the same exact time- such as when a person suffering with OCD goes through the ritualistic washing of hands 50 times (the positive/addition) to alleviate the obsessive compulsive thoughts (the negative/removal). As is obvious, the hand-washing is both positive and negative at the same time. Many behavioral psychologists discourage using such qualifiers due to the debatability of the terms. If those terms are used at all, they are more likely to be applied to punishment rather than reinforcement.

The key to behavior modification, as is purported by behavioral psychologists, lies within reinforcement and punishment. It's most appropriate to see both these included within this thread. These terms are neither synonymous nor opposing. Rather, the terms denote differing ways of changing behavior. Simply put, punishment will tend to decrease the future occurrence of certain behaviors and reinforcement tends to increase the likelihood of certain behaviors repeating themselves. I mention both because not all resolutions of a problem come from the decrease of a behavior. Sometimes an increase of a particular behavior is what is necessary to make things better.

If a Dominant, or submissive for that matter, wants to eliminate or decrease the incidence of a particular behavior, then punishment will be the way to go. Perhaps a Dominant doesn't like that his submissive curses. She knows he doesn't like it, but the language is so ingrained from years of mis-use, she slips up frequently and out comes a "hell" or "damn". What the punishment should be would probably best be determined by what the punished one would respond to more deeply. Maybe she'll respond more effectively to a positive punishment (such as adding an unpleasant chore or task to her regimen). Or maybe a negative one (the submissive is removed from her Dominant's presence for a set amount of time each time she curses) will do the trick. I am of the opinion that both parties involved should determine what course of action would affect change the best.

Now if a Dominant, or again, a submissive, wants to increase the likelihood of a behavior repeating, then reinforcing techniques (think the bell in Pavlov's famous experiment here) should be used to achieve the desired result. Say the Dominant wants his submissive to greet him in a specific position each time he enters a room, but she is having trouble recalling to do so. A reinforcer, such as a pleasedly uttered "good girl" (positive) when she assumes the position, or lack thereof when she doesn't (negative), should be put into effect. Again, to figure out the best course of action, those involved should work together on the plan.

So depending on what's desired, punishment or reinforcement can be utilized. As was also mentioned, each person is unique, so no one thing can be used as an all-effective punishment or reinforcement across the board. But used properly and thoughtfully, either can probably produce necessary and satisfactory changes in behavior.

Edit: It should be noted that some punishments may turn into reinforcers- like a punishment spanking that actually encourages a repeat of the behavior.

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Originally posted by fetishdj:
Masochist: Beat me, hurt me, spank me! Sadist: No.

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lol

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Originally posted by delia:
there are different ways to punish, and no way works for any 2 submissives

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Originally posted by tessa:
each person is unique, so no one thing can be used as an all-effective punishment or reinforcement across the board

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I don't have much experience disciplining slaves, but I have three kids. When they were little I found out that I had to tailor my technique to each one.

As things ended up with my oldest, a look of disappointment could reduce her to tears. If she was sent to her room, she ended up playing quietly with her dolls and didn't want to come out when her time was up.

My middle daughter would return a look of disappointment with a look of defiance. On the other hand, she went ballistic when sent to her room.

The youngest, my son, was very simple to punish. Just take away his video games.

As shown by leighK81's post, any discussion like this should also include the type of people a paticular technique works on, and doesn't work on.

The old saying, "I treat then all the same" just isn't realistic.

Now, with all that said, I found that it was also very helpful to apologise to them when I was wrong. At first it was hard because I thought it would destroy my authority. It didn't, it actually made things better. They learned that I was human and made mistakes too. It also helped bring them all to a point where actual punishments were reduced.

ps
delia, you have a nice soapbox.

Yep... I never minded being sent to my room. That was where I kept my books. Worst punishment for me was being forced to go out and do something other than sit in my room :)

Agree with many of the points made in this thread so far. Especially the communication aspect. This is why things like lines work as you usually have to write out lines that are relevant to the crime thereby reinforcing the communication. Don't seem to do them in schools any more, nor do they expect students to write essays about whatever topic the teacher decides is relevant. No idea why... maybe they are considered 'cruel and unusual' by modern standards (after all, modern schools barely seem to require students to write essays as part of their normal schooling...).

Writing tasks are always a good thing in BDSM, I feel. Its a nice, inexpensive task which has no requirement for the Dom/me to do any work other than come up with the title for the task. They usually serve as good ways of communication, especially in the initial stages of a relationship, as the sub can write out their fantasies and feelings about sessions. They also make good punishment as a sub can write out what they did, why they are sorry for doing it and what they intend to do for the Dom/me to make up for it. All through this process, the Dom/me can sit and watch - maybe have a drink, maybe enjoy another sub. When the task is over, a cruel Dom/me can also either read it and discard it and make them write it out again or, as often used to happen in schools, not bother to read it and just throw it in the bin :) Depends on how evil you are feeling :)

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if you're a dominant, which method are you most likely to use?

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I'll use the one that my sub/slave most likely would have me do in that specific situation. Most of the times, its the Doms/Masters responsebility to keep the sub/slave satisfied. Not the other way around. For me, a good Sir is a Sir who doesn't set himself in first place. When choosing the way, the sub/slave doesn't want is something I do, when I have a specific purpose. I would never make my own needs top-priority. Im not using this as a punishment if I'm angry at my sub/slave. That will never do any good anyway

Negative, for me most of the time. It really depends on the transgression.

If it was (for example) something that probably should have been remembered, or something that just needs to be corrected, I suppose, than this works best.

if it is more During play than Ive found that positive punishment is much more suitable.

Discipline is a necessity for any transgression, the dominant partner however needs to determine what is the most suitable course of action that will correct undesirable behavior.