Insults and new subs

Sage words written by Raven Shadowborne

I read this and was amazed, I see and hear about this time and time again.
I am curious if I am the only one. Or is there others yet they don't voice their opinion on this?

Since I have been on line, I have met many different people. Some of whom turned out to be less than honest, most of whom turned out to be very close to (if not exactly) how they appeared on line, in real life. One of the things I have noticed though, is a trend from those who label themselves as dominants, to insult a submissive whenever he/she thinks for themselves. This seems to occur most frequently when a submissive questions a dominant's actions when a relationship is just starting. In many cases it seems that those insults are tossed out to lay guilt or blame of some sort on the submissive. In some instances it appears that the insult is being used to manipulate the submissive into obedience for something they are not comfortable with by guilting them into it. It seems to work very well with those who are new to the lifestyle. I, personally, find this practice abhorrent to say the least. So I wanted to write a little bit about this topic.
The first insult that gets tossed is "You are not a true submissive!". Well since no one really knows what a true submissive is, this is a fairly ridiculous statement. Further, since the only person who knows whether or not someone is a submissive to any degree is that person themselves, no one else has the right to tell them what they are. Mostly this insult is thrown out by people who think a submissive means someone that meekly accepts anything from everyone at all times, no matter what. The problem is, this insult can make many people feel that they are indeed not submissive which may or may not be true. as well, it can be tossed as a manipulative statement to get someone to do something they do not want to do out of a fear that if they don't they will not gain acceptance into this lifestyle. I feel that this statement is often used in the same way as the "If you really loved me, you would" statement from the teen years when one's boyfriend/girlfriend tried to get more physical intimacy than the other was willing to give at the time.

Another common insult to submissives is "You are really a dom/me in sub's clothing" or similar statements. Again, since the only person who can 100% know what is inside another person at any given moment is that person themselves, this statement is negated. It often is used by people to lay blame on a submissive for asking a question of something they are not sure of. I have very rarely seen or heard of any dominant that does not allow their submissive to ask a question, especially if the topic is something which is really upsetting or bothering the submissive.

Interestingly enough, these insults (and others, which can be placed in either of the two above categories) are most often used against those who are new to the lifestyle, by people who are not truly seeking a BDSM relationship, but instead seem to be seeking an occasional play partner. In the case of someone who is mentoring a new person to this lifestyle, as the relationship goes on, eventually the subject of whether or not the mentor thinks the submissive is indeed a submissive, will come up. In the circumstances that the mentor has good knowledge of the submissive, then the statement may indeed be spoken as the truth. Though, I feel that in those cases the submissive may have already figured that out for themselves.

Another thing I have noticed with these insults is that many try to say there is only one right way to be submissive and use these statements to dismiss anyone that does not fit their view of what a submissive is. This is false as well. There are many different levels of submission and many different kinds of submissives. I feel that instead of insulting someone who is different than the kind of submissive one may be looking for, it is more desirable to try and understand this particular person's needs and desires. Doing this will increase tolerance and one's personal understanding of BDSM in general. One may be very surprised by how much one can learn from someone who is different from themselves.

In a lifestyle that is as varied as this one is, the people who insist on throwing such insults at others do this lifestyle and themselves a great disservice. The biggest thing which seems to pervade every relationship is consent at one point. Using viscious insults to manipulate a person into obedience negates that consent in my opinion. Further, I believe, it shows a true lack of understanding of this lifestyle and the thiings which make up domination and submission. Manipulation through belittling and guilt, do not (in my opinion) make a dominant. The submission of another human being is earned through a gaining of trust, not demanded or taken through guilt trips. A BDSM relationship should make both parties feel secure in themselves, not tear down their self esteem. Manipulative insults undermine the development of a healthy D/s relationship and serve no purprose other than to prevent a person from seeing their own actions for what they are by laying the blame on someone else.

Each person in this lifestyle must decide for themselves what they consider to be BDSM and what they do not, but they should also keep in mind that another's view may differ and that does not make their view wrong.


Master Godfather

Very insightful. A great deal of thought went into this. Bravo! It seems that the more insulting, the greater the insecurity.

It's a shame so many in this world require referees. Thanks for saying what needed to be said, and for saying it with real grace!

:cheerleadMaster Godfather,
RAH-RAH-RAH!! I want to be head cheerleader for your post. Your sentiments in you "vanilla interests", by the way, are also commendable, Sir.

Dixie:cheerlead:cheerlead:cheerlead

very well spoken indeed. i am impressed.

Yes, Raven Shadowborne's words are indeed insightful - thanks for sharing them GF.


I think it's also true that gthe ones most likely to insult subs are the ones most likely to state that dom/mes are always right. Lol. The day I feel I'm infallible is the day I expect to be committed.

A dom/me who acts as though the sun shines out of his/her ass has probably been dipping into the spice jar too much and shout lay off the hot food for a while - lmao.

Excellent post and let's call it out how it really is. You hit the nail on the head with your "If you really loved me, you would" comment. It's not really intended as an insult, it's a manipulative ploy to trick the sub into doing something she does not want to - normally play.

I've got nothing against a degree of manipulation in the battle of the sexes, it can add a fun dimension to the mating game. And I suspect many females get a laugh at the ridiculous ruses doms come up with to snare them. But that's not really the case here. These doms don't try it on with the experienced subbies, they know they would get laughed at. They only try it on with newbies and the more inexperienced the newbie is, the more likely the doms will use this tactic. What bothers me is this is basically taking advantage of a persons ignorance and deliberately giving wrong information purely for ones own gain. It's like a taxi driver fleecing tourists by preying on his lack of local knowledge. And it's wrong, simple as that.

The "true submissive" insult is just one ploy in their bag of dirty tricks. Often they monitor new registrations sending mass mailing spam type introductions to snare newbies before they have a chance to get street wise. Send friends requests without ever having met the person. Claim to be experienced masters without providing any supporting details. Offer to provide training - and I think we all know what they mean by training. Lurk in chat without contributing, just waiting for a newbie to enter so they can whisper without permission in the safe knowledge that newbie is unlikely to complain. Then when the newbie does not do what they want they come up with the "true submissive" taunt. The gullible newbie who desperately wants to be acknowledged as a sub and be accepted in the community is supposed to fall to her knees saying "tell me what I must do to be a true submissive o great master". In my view this type of dom is not a dom, he is a charlatan, a carpetbagger selling snake oil.

The danger is newbies who don't fall for the ploy may become overly cautious and suspicious of every dom's intentions and the the site as a whole. Those who do fall for the ploy, when the dom has had his way and moved on to the next viction, are invariably left with a feeling of shame at having been so easily duped and leave never to return.

I applaud you Sir for bringing the spotlight onto this shameful type of behaviour but would have prefered you omit the offer to collar subs for their protection. The Mafia Godfather did provide excellent protection but it was rarely for the right reasons.

All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

thanks MasterGodfather for the post, i'm bookmarking the link--next time i hear one of the above statements or the equivalent of them, i'm definitely referring them back to this.
:D

Wise words indeed by Raven Shadowborne and thank you MacGuffin as well for your insights. I wish i had seen this when i first signed started chatting here, because that "fresh meat" effect almost drove me away a few times.

Doms who feel they need to insult me as being not a "true submissive" make me laugh now, but when i first started it was almost painful to hear that as i muddled through what submission meant to me. Now, i can laugh it off, and realize that someone who would throw that out there isn't the kind of "Dom" i am looking for. For me at least, someone who feels they have to use those type of insults to get respect and submission doesn't deserve it.

Wise words indeed, and words that should be said more often as well in my humble opinion. All this true submissive stuff makes me feel insecure rather often than not, and weirdly moreso now that I'm not the complete newbie anymore. I would like to add, however, that these 'you are not truly submissive if you...' statements do not only come from dominants, but also very often from other submissives. I am not ultra-super-duper-perfect-slave. I doubt I can be. And yet, that's the picture that's mostly presented to me -- if you are truly submissive, you'll find a way to be ultra-super-duper-perfect-slave. If not, you got a life that interferes yaddayadda, you are simply not submissive, but merely pretending in one way or another. Honestly, that bothers me. And now I'll stop ranting :)

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Originally Posted by kurious25

For me at least, someone who feels they have to use those type of insults to get respect and submission doesn't deserve it.

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Somehow I have the sneaky suspicion respect is not what they were after!

I would like to respectfully thank Master Godfather and MacGuffin for thier sage insight into these matters.

It is greatly appreciated.

What a wonderful post, as a newbie I have already encountered this, thankfully I have made a few friends who pointed out the way. Wouldn't it be wondeful if there was a prerequisite for new subbies before they entered chat? Something in the line of a training post and to let us know the "proper procedure"? Everyone is so afraid of looking like a fool that we often go against our better judgement. It's good to know that there are doms who are willing to stand up and say this isn't the way to go. Thank you for this helpful post.

The rules posted at the site's log-on screen explain in detail that mutual respect is the rule of the day.

Few however take the time to read that page.

The onius of responsibility ergo is layed at our own feet; to watch out for those that are not learned in the way and or too eager for their own good.

Any member accousted in such a manner has options to report and or ignore the undesired advances or assumed "ownership" of another.

There is a function key to ignore users in chat found by clicking on the offenders name on the right side of the screen and in the profile notifications section as well.

One may also save any chat log and contact administration or a staff member at a later time if one is not present to handle the situation.

Ultimately one must be prepared to educate and defend one's own self, for truely helpful individuals and the staff cannot allways be present.

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I would like to add, however, that these 'you are not truly submissive if you...' statements do not only come from dominants, but also very often from other submissives.

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And yet, that's the picture that's mostly presented to me -- if you are truly submissive, you'll find a way to be ultra-super-duper-perfect-slave. If not, you got a life that interferes yaddayadda, you are simply not submissive, but merely pretending in one way or another.

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Amen, Polaris. These kind of snide and patronizing statements from the "Super Subbies" bothered me at first more than the chastisements from Doms who became so enraged if I challenged them. I've learned a lot about ignoring some of this twaddle in the past 6 weeks but at first it affected me emotionally and I hate for new people to have to experience this. For some reason I thought if I made someone mad or didn't live up to their expectations that I would be all alone and have no one. Little did I know that you can have as many doms and sub friends as you have time to handle. The internet has turned the world into one great big cheap international whore-house. There's always plenty more where the first came from. This is not to belittle some of the people I've met who I do think are honest, above-board, and worthy of my respect and friendship. It's an attempt to get really green (1st 7-10 days) members to be brave about using the delete button. The best thing is to tell these jerks why you no longer wish to have anything to do with them and then put them on your ignore list if they keep bugging you. But most of them get the message if you just don't respond to them. Another suggestion if you newbies have few or no takers to your 1st post is to repost in 2-4 weeks. Re-write your original post. Edit your profile 1st. Look at some post that generated a lot of traffic and borrow ideas from that. Post the 2nd one at a different time of day. Some posts just get lost in the shuffle because of the time of day you post it. Others generate little interest because they sound the same as a million other ones. Think of something unique to say about yourselves.
There's a nice somebody for each and every one of you out there but sometimes you might have to recast your net.

Back to you, Polaris, I couldn't agree with you more. The other day I told a man that in normal, everyday life I was about as submissive as a grizzly bear. He laughed his ass off at me which probably means he is one of the "good ones"...........a great person to have as a friend even if nothing else ever pans out.

A wise man once said "If you are truly smart, you don't have to tell anyone. They will know". If you are a Dom who is comfortable within himself or herself, you won't have hurl insults to let them know. Any Sub will know soon enough.

when i first joined the site i had a few "doms" contact me once i registered, wanting to get information on me, wanting to know how long i been into the lifestyle (which at that time wasnt long at all) and they would try to play, and make me feel guilty for being a newbie, and not knowing as much as i thought they did.

thanksfully, ive learned a great deal being here and now as kurious as said..i laugh at them and they sad ways...

Ultimately one must be prepared to educate and defend one's own self, for truely helpful individuals and the staff cannot allways be present. - Kuskovian

Your post summed up well existing counter-measures but I come to a different conclusion than you.

You conclude because "the staff cannot always be present" it's up to the newbie sub to "defend one's own self". That's at variance with "If a member is harassing you or in some way disrespecting you, please let a chat mod or admin know, rather then taking the matter into your own hands--please do not be a vilgilante- that is why we have chat staff!". I know you did not mean be a vigilante but nonetheless it's not quite as simple as self-defence.

I take the view that if there's a problem, don't ignore it fix it! Finding workable solutions is of course not easy but at least you are facing up to the problem and trying to do something about it. That raises the question is, is there a problem? You seem to suggest "No" because the subbie can either ignore or report it. I would argue "Yes" because this thread demonstrates it is a matter of ongoing concern for many people.

Let me compare it to rape. You can ignore the rapist but the damage may already have been done and the rapist is free to attack again, probably encouraged to do so since he knows all that happens is he is ignored, and ignoring does not stop the next rapist. Reporting is the way but the victim must report the crime. How many rapes go unreported. Did juicysub complain. How many subbies in the thread said the same has happened to them and how many complained (good question ladies - why didn't you). Are we saying it's not a problem because the victim did not complain. Come on let's get real here, a newbie is highly unlikely to complain,that's one of the reasons they are targeted, and she probably thinks it's normal here and simply leaves. If there was a known a serial rapist in the community would the local police have a quiet word with him and would the mobster tell him that if he does it again he'll get his dick cut off.

Agreed my rape analagy may not be fair, but it does demonstrate that if there is a problem there may be more that needs to be done than simply saying ignore it or report it.

If I were subbie and a Dom told me in whisper I was not a true submissive, I'd be inclined to reply in public "Are you telling me Sir Blackheart that if I don't fall to my knees and obey your every command that I'm not a true submissive?". Then lean back and smile as all the subbies in room sharpened their claws and ripped the guy to shreds.

A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something. - Marcus Aurelius

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

If I were subbie and a Dom told me in whisper I was not a true submissive, I'd be inclined to reply in public "Are you telling me Sir Blackheart that if I don't fall to my knees and obey your every command that I'm not a true submissive?". Then lean back and smile as all the subbies in room sharpened their claws and ripped the guy to shreds.

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Oh I so hope everyone sees this and puts it to good use *grins*

Sir i believe what my husband is doing is addressing the problem directly.

By highlighting the opptions available to the submissives that are or have or may be harrassed he is providing them with the knowledge they need to combat it and informing them that the submissives in question have the full right to do so.

He is one of the biggest defenders of my sisters in both chat and the forums and i am frankly shocked that you would even sugest otherwise.

It is not realistic to have our all vollunteer staff present in the chat room at all times, not is it feasible for them to review the thousands of posts made by all the members.

Having people save and report chat logs as well as using the ignore key to stop an offender (permanetly block him from access to you) is paramont.

We have had numerous threads that discuss this issue as well as rules and guildlines on how to deal with it placed and highlighted in several different access points to the site.

I also have not heard any viable soultions presented by you or anyone else that the site doesnt allready employ.

Lol, well, I realize that this is a serious issue, but when someone tries to pull a stunt like that on me I can't help but to laugh at them. Usually it's a simple matter of telling them to grow up... then even they are embarrased about their slip-up.
And quite frankly, the entire "you're not a sub, you're a Domme in sub's clothing" thing... most of these guys I would rather Domme any day then actually submit to. I could probably teach them a thing or two, lol :-)

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Originally Posted by denuseri

It is not realistic to have our all vollunteer staff present in the chat room at all times, not is it feasible for them to review the thousands of posts made by all the members.

Having people save and report chat logs as well as using the ignore key to stop an offender (permanetly block him from access to you) is paramont.

We have had numerous threads that discuss this issue as well as rules and guildlines on how to deal with it placed and highlighted in several different access points to the site.

I also have not heard any viable soultions presented by you or anyone else that the site doesnt allready employ.

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agreess wholeheartedly!! hugs



agrees, we arent able to always be around just like the mods in the forums arent able to be around contactly we have lives, just like the regular membes of the foum and chat have real lives, it doesnt mean that things arent getting done behind the scenes because members "block or ignore" assulting members of the forum. it just means that when we (any member of the staff) is able to get to that person ,the matter will be handles......as den has said, the policies that are already in places are outlined in the guidelines and rules of the forum and chat, and all membes should read it but i doubt anyone does....its sad when new members are ran off because of @@holes but its a caring community here and im glad when members decide to come back and join in on the chat/forum..

ok now off to work LOL

By highlighting the opptions available to the submissives that are or have or may be harrassed he is providing them with the knowledge they need to combat it
I agree he provided subs with valuable information, I said he "summed up well" the counter measures.

He is one of the biggest defenders of my sisters in both chat and the forums and i am frankly shocked that you would even sugest otherwise.
I fail to see how I suggested he was not a defender of your sisters but since you somehow got that impression, I respectfully apologise for any misunderstanding.

It is not realistic to have our all vollunteer staff present in the chat room at all times, not is it feasible for them to review the thousands of posts made by all the members.
I agree it's not realistic to expect staff to be present in chat all the time. Did I suggest they should be. And even if they were it would not affect whispers and private chats or messages, which is where the insults are normally made. I agree it is not feasable review thousands of posts (are there that many each day), not that it would be needed since I'm sure there are more than enough subbies to voice an opinion should a Dom make a "you're not a true sub" accusation against a member in forums.

Having people save and report chat logs as well as using the ignore key to stop an offender (permanetly block him from access to you) is paramont.
I agree, I said "Reporting is the way". Did I suggest it was not paramount. Far from it, I bemoaned that newbies may not report it.

We have had numerous threads that discuss this issue
I dont know, I haven't had chance to go through them all and presumably neither has Godfather else he may have considered his initial post redundant. Nevertheless the fact that an issue has been discussed before should not preclude it being periodically raised again.

Sir i believe what my husband is doing is addressing the problem directly.
I agree, he did address the problem directly and did not suggest otherwise. Where I differed, as I said in my opening sentence, was the conclusion that ultimately it is the submissives responsibility to defend herself. I agree the subbie has some responsibility but I would have prefered he said it is all of our responsibilities to educate and defend each other. Incidentally I take the view that it is the moral obligation of the strong to defend the weak rather than it being the responsibility of the weak to defend themselves.

I also have not heard any viable soultions presented by you or anyone else that the site doesnt allready employ.
I agree I did not provide the solution and I acknowledged that "finding workable solutions is of course not easy". I did however make one suggestion to which one member responded " Oh I so hope everyone sees this and puts it to good use". You thanked that member for her response so presumably you agree with her. I was simply making what I thought was an obvious point that if there is a problem one should continue to strive to find a solution. Yes it's not easy, neither is the crime or health problem in the country but we don't say it's up to citizens to defend and heal themselves. We are continuously looking at ways to make the world a better and safer place.

In fairness had the post started by saying something to the effect that it was intended to highlight the options available to submissives I would not have commented. But the way it started and ended gave me, what I now know to be, a wrong impression. I deeply regret that my views shocked you and will refrain from further comment on this issue.

I beg you Sir to please not refrain from posting, your input is valued. Everyone is just very passionate about this issue, escpecially those of us that have suffered or are supporters of those that have suffered such abuse and we need all the help possible in combating it

I am sorry you didnt see how your post could be taken as a personal slander i do not wish to highlite it and cuase more division and alltough my husband has not read the post yet i am sure he will recognize you didnt mean to have it taken that way after reading your clarification.

You are both doing what you see is right in as best a way as possible.

Your words:
"I would have prefered he said it is all of our responsibilities to educate and defend each other. Incidentally I take the view that it is the moral obligation of the strong to defend the weak rather than it being the responsibility of the weak to defend themselves."

His words::
"The onius of responsibility ergo is layed at our own feet; to watch out for those that are not learned in the way and or too eager for their own good."

and as for the quote about having the subs take some self responsibility, well thats some tough love, sometimes we girls, especially the submissive inclined ones need on occasion for a push in the right direction so that we know it's ok to say no and defend ourselfs

The language may be different but you are both saying the same thing if you read his post more closely, however laconic his diction.

The following is a an idea thats full of good intentions and been tried by members in the past which is why i thanked the person that aggreed with it, yet it is not a solution to the problem. and ultimately led to "troll" hunts and the like which caused lots of problems

"If I were subbie and a Dom told me in whisper I was not a true submissive, I'd be inclined to reply in public "Are you telling me Sir Blackheart that if I don't fall to my knees and obey your every command that I'm not a true submissive?". Then lean back and smile as all the subbies in room sharpened their claws and ripped the guy to shreds."

It also is rife with other problems, especially if the "offender" is falsely accused and or publically embarressed in such fashion which is why we recommend the ignore key instead and reporting the log to staff as it has led to more than a few mishapes in the past where some members were over zealous.

and by mentioning other threads dealing with the issue i am in no way sugestiing this thread is redundant, if that was the case i would have said so and posted a link to the other thread, i was only highlighting that there is other information available and that the staff has done a great deal to try and combat this problem on numerous occassions.

What i would like to know is if anyone has a better idea? or a better possible solution?

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Originally Posted by denuseri

and as for the quote about having the subs take some self responsibility, well thats some tough love, sometimes we girls, especially the submissive inclined ones need on occasion for a push in the right direction so that we know it's ok to say no and defend ourselfs

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Just to throw my two cents in on this particular aspect...

There are two issues involved: knowing defending yourself is okay and being able to.

To the first, I've been asked, more than once by people new to the community something along the lines of: "this dom I didn't know told me to kneel and started giving me orders ... am I expected to do that here? for just anyone?"

A lot of submissives entering the community really don't know what's expected of them with strangers and in a group setting. Sometimes their first exposure to a "dominant" is one of these bozos. How do we get them the information in the first place?

The second issue is potentially more damaging. Some (certainly not all or most) submissives are simply incapable of asserting themselves to the degree necessary to defend themselves in these situations. Whether because they're naturally too deferential or because their unfulfilled need to belong is so great that they'll grasp at even the bozos. How do we protect those who, for whatever reason, can't protect themselves?

The result of both of these issues, if left unaddressed, is that the submissive either falls for the bozo's lines and winds up getting hurt and confused (sometimes repeatedly) or is driven away from the community.

This has been an issue for as long as I can remember (this means "for a really, really, depressingly long time") and has always been more pronounced online. The most successful answer to it has always been the community itself.

Chat moderators are a good start, but they're not always available and not always aware of what's going on -- and the individual at risk doesn't always know to approach a moderator for help. The rest of the community has to step up and help -- which this one does pretty well, in my opinion.

That "help" doesn't necessarily have to mean vigilantism. Physical communities have to deal with this sort of thing too, and it isn't always by a half-dozen burly, leather-clad dominants surrounding the offender with muttered "oh no you didn't"s (or worse, siccing the submissives on the poor bugger).

It can be as simple as taking someone new aside and warning them off of particular individuals or letting them know they can ask questions. Reinforcing that questions are okay is important. A lot of people are hesitant to ask questions publicly and uncomfortable putting themselves forward to ask a stranger privately -- the message that questions are okay has to be regularly reinforced by a number of people before it's accepted.

Even the offenders can be approached. Yes, most of them are unrepentant morfs/asls/trolls (whatever your preferred term is), but some are going to be new dominants who are simply misguided because their examples to emulate have been those morfs. Dominants need mentors and advice too ... and are often more hesitant to ask for it.

So in addition to the clearly posted "rules" and other areas that are often ignored by incoming members as too tedious and or boreing to bother reading, would a pm message sent to every new member be a better step, or perhaps a visitor profile message as its more visible to new members with a link to the main pages rules or some other message?

I dont know myself, I would ask that Torq and Delia or any other staff members to wiegh in on the formation of a mentorship group that is going to affect the site in such a wide way if the idea is even feasible.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

So in addition to the clearly posted "rules" and other areas that are often ignored by incoming members as too tedious and or boreing to bother reading, would a pm message sent to every new member be a better step, or perhaps a visitor profile message as its more visible to new members with a link to the main pages rules or some other message?

I dont know myself, I would ask that Torq and Delia or any other staff members to wiegh in on the formation of a mentorship group that is going to affect the site in such a wide way if the idea is even feasible.

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And there's the crux of the problem ... lol

All the information's out there, but a lot of people won't find it, or even look for it, but if you contact every new member it'll seem cloying and intrusive to some. There really is no perfect solution.

Personally, I think this site strikes a good balance. There's information available for those who do their own research, the responses to introductions include many offers to answer questions and the same offers are made when new people show up in chat. Things seem to work a lot better here than most places.

i dont know if im qualified to add to this discussion but i feel i must as i have has a bad experience with a Dom who when i questioned how far he was going became very abusive and really upset me.
if it hadnt been for the fact i recognised someone id spoken to before and asked her if my actions were justified i would have left ...possibly for good...(she assured me they were)
as a newbie and not really knowing the system, he was able to manipulate my feeling and make me feel worthless...to be honest he made me cry!!!! and i didnt join for that sort of treatment.
any help to stop another person suffering that would be fantastic but as others have, more wisely, said i dont know how to achieve this xx