Please Help: Subbie Ground Rules

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01-22-2005
Eclipsed

Please Help: Subbie Ground Rules

Hi, everyone, this is my first thread, so please be kind.
But here's my question... I know it sounds like a "duh!" question but, well, I can't answer it so here goes... :dunno:

Can anyone help me with setting down ground rules and boundries in a new relationship?

I'm a new subbie. I've been into BDSM for a long time but in theory and research only. I'm looking into starting an online or (preferably) real life relationship with a dom. I have no experience to speak of and my potential dom, has only just started doing this in r/l though he has years of experience o/l.
Now, here's my problem, I'm a pleaser. I spend most of my days trying to make sure everyone around me is as happy possible, even if this costs me my own happiness. I will do almost anything to make sure, my friends, classmates, and peers are happy or pleased. I don't know what my boundries are and I've already proven that I will do things I wouldn't normally do or are even completely comfortable with to please him. It's a bad thing, I know, but I've been doing this for most of my short life, so I don't think it's something that I can get rid of. It scares me how fast this is going, when by nature I'm cautious and generally paranoid. I don't want to put myself into a bad situation, especially one I can't pull myself out of or deserve because I don't know where to draw the line. Please Help!! I'd appreciate all advice!!
01-22-2005
Chuckdom19

Congrats, and an idea.

First of all, congrats on having the courage to open a new thread. And the questions are good ones!

The most important thing to start with is to be sure your play will be Safe, Sane, & Consentual (SSC for short). There are plenty of masters, but some won't allow SSC, they demand Total Power Exchange (TPE) and think whatever they want to do is all right.

As a suggestion, you will first want to establish "hard" limits: "I absolutely will not do (whatever) under any circumstances. Then establish "soft" limits: "I ~might~ try that, slowly and carefully, maybe".

To establish that, you likely would want to use a checklist which was originally put together by some college (University of Washington, USA, I think). The list is NOT all inclusive, but has a general term for just about anything. You'll find it at http://www.bdsmcircle.net/dslifestyle/checklist.htm.

Another great resource is the "S & M Dictionary", posted at http://www.sandm.com/p/103.html

Good luck, and come back to keep us informed. More Questions? Lots of good people here to help.

Chksng19
01-23-2005
wannabeXopsed

The beginning

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Can anyone help me with setting down ground rules and boundries in a new relationship?

Welcome Eclipsed, I am not sure where you want to begin, I know for me, after much determination and research, I had decided to join this forum, it is amazingly wonderful and useful. Anyway, I knew for starter's what my hard limits were, like Chksng19 has put, and from there, I took the list as he mentioned. I answer them with honesty and to the best of my knowledge, there are questions sometimes that i wasn't sure what it meant, but overtime and posting here you can learn even more.

Now, with my online experience, each and every Dom/me/Master has there own idea's of how the want there sub/slave to perform, the best way to find out is to ask what they expect. Know how you want to be treated. If your online Dom has any integrity they will be patience understanding, and know the very essence of playing safe,sane,and consenously just as Chksng has said.

From my first experience and I have only had a couple of encounters, which amounts to about zero, I found that I was first not prepared to be used and thrown away. So when you do go r/t, I would recommend first getting to know them first. If the first thing out of there mouth is "strip assume position" then I would run from the site immediately. Like I should of done.

I now know that it takes time, just like vanilla dating to build trust with one's Dom/Master and again if he knows what he's doing he won't expect you to perform on the first encounter or even the second, but give you some tasks to perform to make sure you are ready to submit. Then when you mutually agree it will be time to submit to him.

Last but most important, meet him first in public, have a safe call to insure your saftey, anyone just so he knows you won't come up as a missing person, or even worse. Make sure someone knows his name and email and all pertinant info. YOU MUST BE SAFE!!

I hope this makes some sense. Time is on your side, and with some patience don't comprise yourself and accept everything he tells you as gospel. In a very nice submissive manner you should be able to challenge and ask questions at any time.

Take care
T
01-23-2005
Eclipsed

Thank u for being the first to reply, cheksng19. I've read some of your other posts and found them enlightening.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by chksng19

The most important thing to start with is to be sure your play will be Safe, Sane, & Consentual (SSC for short). There are plenty of masters, but some won't allow SSC, they demand Total Power Exchange (TPE) and think whatever they want to do is all right.

As a suggestion, you will first want to establish "hard" limits. Then establish "soft" limits.

To establish that, you likely would want to use a checklist which was originally put together by some college (University of Washington, USA, I think). The list is NOT all inclusive, but has a general term for just about anything. You'll find it at http://www.bdsmcircle.net/dslifestyle/checklist.htm.

Another great resource is the "S & M Dictionary", posted at http://www.sandm.com/p/103.html

thanks for the sites and the suggestions. We've already more or less established some hard limits and some soft limits, but he's so damned iffy on everything and a really big fan of humiliation play. Like the other day, I told him I was NOT into something in a pm and he used it as a way to punish me in the main room. Someone asked me if i was ok w/ all that. I told them not really, but i didn't hve much choice in the matter and they called me a "good subbie." Is that an infringement of the whole hard limits and soft limits thing? He seems very much into SCC, but sometimes he contradicts himself. And is it ok to use humiliation this early in the game. I read in another thread about the difference between humiliation and degredation, and what terms or details should be related to each. I'm not comfortable w/ humiliation play, so should I tell him not to, even though he likes it so much?
Eep! Still a little confused, but getting there slowly...
01-23-2005
Eclipsed

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabeXopsed

Welcome Eclipsed, I am not sure where you want to begin, I know for me, after much determination and research, I had decided to join this forum, it is amazingly wonderful and useful.

Me too ,wannabeXopsed. This site more or less started off my research in the first place!! It's the first place I've felt comfortable asking questions and what not!
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabeXopsed

Now, with my online experience, each and every Dom/me/Master has there own idea's of how the want there sub/slave to perform, the best way to find out is to ask what they expect.

But what if he's not even very sure himself. I guess, I should wonder if it's a good idea start off in this lifestyle w/ someone who is still relatively inexperienced or if that should even matter... I know how I want to be treated and I want this to be a serious thing, not like casual dating. Do I put my foot down by saying, "no I want to slow down" and see what happens? I know I'm not prepared to be used and thrown away as u put it.
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabeXopsed

So when you do go r/t, I would recommend first getting to know them first. If the first thing out of there mouth is "strip assume position" then I would run from the site immediately. Like I should of done.

What if it's the 2nd thing out of their mouth? lol :)
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabeXopsed

Last but most important, meet him first in public, have a safe call to insure your saftey, anyone just so he knows you won't come up as a missing person, or even worse. Make sure someone knows his name and email and all pertinant info. YOU MUST BE SAFE!!

Hehehehe, I know it. My friends have told me that if it gets to point of a r/l meeting, they're going to fit me w/ every GPS tracking and homing device they can think of!! I don't think they think much of my common sense :D
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabeXopsed

I hope this makes some sense. Time is on your side, and with some patience don't comprise yourself and accept everything he tells you as gospel. In a very nice submissive manner you should be able to challenge and ask questions at any time.

Thank you so much for responding... I was afraid I wasn't going to get anything until you and chksng19 and it's really nice to get a view point from both a dom and a sub. I really really appreciate it and you both have been extrodrinarily helpful. I hope I can return the favor some day.
01-23-2005
Garnet99

Be careful, Eclipsed!

I have not been into this for very long, so what I say is only from about a year of experience.....
Please be careful! I would think that even a new dom would know to go slowly. Using something that is a hard limit for you as a punishment does not seem like a good way to establish trust. I am also a pleaser and know how hard it is to say no - but you have to learn that to be safe. How can you trust when your boundaries are shattered?

That doesn't mean that you can't learn to experience something that you once thought would be off-limits. But that takes time - both for you and your dom. Insist on open communication. Make sure that your safe word will be respected if you get into a r/l situation. Remember, this should be for mutual pleasure. Otherwise it's abuse, and you should run! You are young, and the right person will come into your life!
01-23-2005
BDSM_Tourguide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Can anyone help me with setting down ground rules and boundries in a new relationship?

Yes.

The first, and most important, part of any relationship, BDSM or not, is communication. You and he must each communicate your desires, wishes, likes and dislikes freely and openly. If you cannot do that, then your relationship will never be ask you would like it to be.

I recommend that you fill out an activity checklist, first and foremost. You an find a good one that is emailable at: http://www.soulshaven.f2s.com/chk_questions.php3 That lets your potential dominant know immediately what your likes and dislikes are, what you are curious about doing, and what you won't do at all. Once you have completed a checklist, you may send it to your dominant and then you and he may discuss any items about which you have questions.

Since your relationship is online, you don't have to worry about several different kinds of things, like having him flog you at increasing levels of intensity to see how much you can take and at what stage it ceases to be enjoyable and just becomes painful. Still, online relationship require commitment, communication, and trust just like any other relationship.

For a more complete, step-by-step guide, you can view the Guide to Online Relationships at BDSM Library Dungeon. You might pay close attention to sections three, four, and five.

And remember, this should be enjoyable. If you're not having any fun, then something is probably wrong.
01-23-2005
BDSM_Tourguide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Like the other day, I told him I was NOT into something in a pm and he used it as a way to punish me in the main room. Someone asked me if i was ok w/ all that. I told them not really, but i didn't hve much choice in the matter and they called me a "good subbie."

Nothing about that was "good" at all. The proper response in that situation would have been "No. I told you I don't like that." A submissive is not a doormat, and she should not have her feelings and opinions walked over as if she were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Is that an infringement of the whole hard limits and soft limits thing?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

He seems very much into SCC, but sometimes he contradicts himself. And is it ok to use humiliation this early in the game. I read in another thread about the difference between humiliation and degredation, and what terms or details should be related to each. I'm not comfortable w/ humiliation play, so should I tell him not to, even though he likes it so much?
Eep! Still a little confused, but getting there slowly...

He doesn't seem all that much into SSC to me, if he can't be bothered to respect on of your simplest limits. That sort of blows that whole "consensual" thing out of the water.

And yes, you absolutely should tell him not to. No means no, even for submissives. Just because you are defined as a submissive does not give anyone that claims to be dominant rights to undermine your feelings and your sense of security. Stick up for yourself. If you are not comfortable in a situation, leave it.
01-23-2005
BDSM_Tourguide

A couple of things you should know, Eclipsed

One, the submissive has the true power in a DS relationship. When she sets a limit, it should be respected. When she says no, that means no. When she negotiates a contract, it it for her benefit and her security. If her limits change or her interests change as time progresses, then she may request to renegotiate the contract. It is on the submissive's safeword that a scene stops, period.

You are in control of your own sense of self. Your well-being, your comfort, your satisfaction are all up to you. You are not dependant on someone else to tell you how a submnissive should act. You can figure that out quite well enough on your own. If the person with which you choose to share your submission doesn't understand that and won't respect it, then find someone that will.

As much as I hate to say it, the internet is a breeding ground for stupidity. And it seems the area of BDSM is one of the most misunderstood communities online about which there seems to be the most ignorance. Just because a person proclaims themself to be dominant does not make it so. And just because a person assumes she is submissive doesn't mean she automatically knows what's right for her and how she will react when placed in certain situations within an actual DS relationship.

Most of what you will need to know will come from your own experiences. That doesn't mean you should run blindly into them, though. Reading and research are good. I did that for six years before I even tried a "real" BDSM relationship, and I was still pretty clueless. But for all the reading and research a person can do, experience will still teach them the best.

Ask lots of questions! The only stupid question is the one you never asked.

When you find the person that is right for you, you will know it. You won't feel the worry and doubt that you are feeling right now. I'm not saying everything will just click together and that he will be your white knight riding in on his trusty steed and you'll live happily every after, but it will feel better than when you're sitting and worrying whether you should say something or not. When you find the right person, he will respect your wishes, encourage your opinions, and ask your input. Nowhere is it written that the submissive is best seen and not heard.
01-23-2005
slavelucy

Hi Eclipsed,

That's a really good quesion you raise, in a specifically interesting way.

i pulled this out of what you wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Now, here's my problem, I'm a pleaser. I spend most of my days trying to make sure everyone around me is as happy possible, even if this costs me my own happiness. I will do almost anything to make sure, my friends, classmates, and peers are happy or pleased.

...i pulled it out because i think it's a very interesting point and something you're right to consider when starting a new relationship (any relationship, actually, but especially a Ds one). There has always seemed to me, to be a contradiction between this trait of wanting to please people that many subs seem to carry and setting limits or boundaries on a Ds relationship.

On a personal note, interestingly, once i'd become established in a Ds relationship, i actually became more selective in who i pleased and how far i would put myself out to keep trying to please people in my life. i'm not sure if this was because my own Dom encouraged me to realise that being submissive doesn't mean i should constantly give my time, effort and energy ALL the time, to everyone around me and expect nothing in return, in that submission gave me confidence to say "No, i don't want to do that" or "No, i'm sorry, i don't have time"..not in the Ds world, but in the rest of life. i only mention this in reference to what you said about pleasing people around you, at the expense of your own happiness.

Anyway, getting back to you and your Ds...i would very much second what others have said about BDSM checklists etc in terms of pratical matters, but i get the feeling that you and your dom need to sort out a few relationship issues that don't necessarily directly pertain to purely pratical things. For instance, i confess to feeling slightly concerned with some of the stuff you say about having done things you wern't comfortable with....but i wouldn't be overly concerned about it (unless you remain REALLY unhappy with that stuff for weeks afterwards)..BDSM can be scary at times, in the moment, but as long as it doesn't cause lasting unhappiness or an ongoing 'uneasy' feeling somewhere deep inside, it should be fine. The only thing therefore that DOES worry me is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsed

We've already more or less established some hard limits and some soft limits, but he's so damned iffy on everything and a really big fan of humiliation play. Like the other day, I told him I was NOT into something in a pm and he used it as a way to punish me in the main room. Someone asked me if i was ok w/ all that. I told them not really, but i didn't hve much choice in the matter and they called me a "good subbie."

How do you mean, 'iffy'? If something's a limit, then it's a limit, end of story. It may not remain so forever, but it is until such time as you say it isn't. i also don't like the sound of punishing you for saying you're not into something...that's like punishing someone because they don't like icecream..unless that wasn't what you meant and you meant it was the way you said it or something?

So, at the end of all this (i'll shut up in a minute, i promise!), i think prior to checklists etc etc, you should discuss some of your reservations about how you both see Ds..and this is what it really comes down to, it's not so much that he's in the 'wrong'..more that his way of going about things concerns you in terms of how well you know yourself and the issues regarding boundaries that immediately arise as a result of that. i don't know of a single good dominant who wouldn't be prepared to listen and explain themselves and indeed help you work out what's going on.

Right, i'll be quiet. Hope all this is of some help. :)

sl
01-23-2005
Eclipsed

Wow... eloquently and simply put, TG, as always. That's helped to clear up a lot of things. Thank u.
01-23-2005
Eclipsed

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by slavelucy

On a personal note, interestingly, once i'd become established in a Ds relationship, i actually became more selective in who i pleased and how far i would put myself out to keep trying to please people in my life.

[/

That's great!! I'm so bad at saying no, that I've often missed deadlines trying to make sure everyone else got theirs in on time!! I've been trying to learn to put my foot down, but all someone has to do is make the impression that it's really REALLY important, and I cave... or look like if I say no, they'll get mad. One reason I don't date often.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by slavelucy

How do you mean, 'iffy'?

Oh, when I say iffy, it just seems that he isn't really confident about somethings... and i can tell and that makes ME even more unsure and uneasy. I don't really know what i'm doing... I mean research and theory r great, but may not hold up in real-life, and it's hard to deal w/ that uncertainty plus the uncertainty of a new relationship and then topped of w/ how he sounds uncertain.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by slavelucy

i also don't like the sound of punishing you for saying you're not into something...that's like punishing someone because they don't like icecream..unless that wasn't what you meant and you meant it was the way you said it or something?

[/

No, he didn't punish me for not being into something. According to TG's "7 types of submissive" thread, I'm predominantly a SAM subbie. I like to yank on people's tails, and poke fun at them... but only if it's in good fun!! I'm a big goof ball and hve an unfortunate habit of not knowing when to quit while i'm ahead. I was just poking fun at him and he got fed up w/ it and punished me. Normally, I'd think i deserve that, but, I'd told him earlier in a pm that I really wasn't into this certain thing,I might maybe try it later... much later, and he used that to punish me in the main room.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by slavelucy

Right, i'll be quiet. Hope all this is of some help. :)

Oh please, i really enjoyed hearing what you had to say and you made some very good points!! It's helped a lot, it really has!! I just need to figure out how to say all this to him. Our relationship has gone SO fast, now i want to dig in my heels and say, "Wait... back up a step or dozen!"
01-23-2005
Garnet99

Oh please, i really enjoyed hearing what you had to say and you made some very good points!! It's helped a lot, it really has!! I just need to figure out how to say all this to him. Our relationship has gone SO fast, now i want to dig in my heels and say, "Wait... back up a step or dozen!"

All you have to do is send him this thread, and I think he will get the message. TG and slavelucy have some excellent advice - share it with him and your relationship could develop into something beautiful! I wish you the best!

(Could someone please tell me how to quote properly?)
01-23-2005
slavelucy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garnet99

(Could someone please tell me how to quote properly?)

Sure. :)

To quote someone's post, or part of their post, click on 'Reply' on the bottom right of the post from which you wish to quote. From there, you'll see a bunch of text between 'quotes' (should have the word quote in brackets and end with backslash and the word quote again)....just take out anything you don't want to quote and voila! Then after that (or before, whatever), you just say whatever you want to add, anywhere as long as it's not within the quoted bits.

Hope that makes sense, for multiple quotes you can copy and paste and type in the quoting bits manually, but i reckon the other way better for what you want to do with it.

You could try quoting some of this to test it out.

sl
01-24-2005
Garnet99

Quote:

Originally Posted by slavelucy

Sure. :)

To quote someone's post, or part of their post, click on 'Reply' on the bottom right of the post from which you wish to quote. From there, you'll see a bunch of text between 'quotes' (should have the word quote in brackets and end with backslash and the word quote again)....just take out anything you don't want to quote and voila!

You could try quoting some of this to test it out.

sl

Thank you, slavelucy! If this works, then I got it. If not I'll read it again, and try later! It worked!!!! :D
02-09-2005
e.b.

Hey Eclipsed! :)

I was just thinking it had been a little while since you started this thread and wondered how things were going. Feel free to share or not, whatever feels right to you, but I wanted to check on ya sweetie. ;)

eb

p.s.--Sorry I never got to reply to this thread when you started it...I really meant to but then things got busy and luckily TG and luce said about what I would have anyway. Take care and I hope all is going fabulously.