Love

I have been inflicted with many buzzing thoughts concerning love during the lastest threads, and would like to explore them with any who have views if only to get a little peace in my head ;-)

So:

What is love?

How does it show itself?
How does it change a person?
How does it change your preception and your ideas of another person?
What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?

Is all love monogamous?

Can you love only one? (at a time, or in your life)
If you fall in love with someone, must you fall out of love with others?

Does love and jealousy follow each other, or are they seperate

Can you love without jealousy?
Can you be jealous without love?

Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead?

What causes crime passionel?
Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?
Or did it, and is now changing attitude? If so, is that ok?
Do you think it is understandable/ok to kill the loved one?
Or to kill for love in other situations?

D/s and love

Can you have a D/s relationship if there is also love?
Can you have a D/s relationship without love?

Obviouly I have plenty of ideas and even more questions, but thought I'd start with just the questions.

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Originally Posted by thir

What causes crime passionel?

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Possessiveness

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Originally Posted by thir

Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?

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Some societies did and a few still do. Although, only as long as it's guys whacking their women. Whether that has really got anything to do with love is an entirely different question.

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Originally Posted by thir

Can you have a D/s relationship if there is also love?

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I guess for me love is a prerequisite for a D/s relationship. But since I've never tried one without love, I can't be sure.
Can you have a D/s relationship without love?

This crime of passion thingy is being hashed over in another thread and imho its not always about some jealous husband killing a cheating spouse. It's also associated with avenging one's loved one who has been harmed by another...like a father gunning down the rapist who just got off on a technicality etc too.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

This crime of passion thingy is being hashed over in another thread and imho its not always about some jealous husband killing a cheating spouse. It's also associated with avenging one's loved one who has been harmed by another...like a father gunning down the rapist who just got off on a technicality etc too.

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Yes, I took it over here because I felt it was side-tracking the original thread too much, but also because it is a natural part of talking about what love is.

Many things would seem a reasonable reason for killing, different things for different people. Like the one you mention. Others might feel that people who commit blasfemi should be killed, people who deal in drugs, people who rape, people who abuse animals, people who construct more an more refined weapons, some politicians, and so on and so on. To each that particular reason is 'justifiable homicide'.

But those are private reasons. What I wonder is why, in some places, there is also a legal idea that it is justified to kill a cheating spouse - of all the reasons people might have.

And I wonder why, and waht is has to do with 'passion'? What passion is it we are talking about?

One thing I am especially interested in is the connection of BDSM with love. If you have a relationship which is far along the contiinum of PE, can your still be in control if you love your sub/slave? We have had problems discussed here that would seem to say 'no'. Is this true?

There are those who prefer a relationship complete seperated from an everyday life, and also from love because, as they put it, 'love would spoil it'. It would kill the control and the sex. The main things is to control and being controlled, to be allowed to be submissive.

So, what is it with D/s and love? How do you do it? How much do you need to know each other? How much would you need to know about D/s? It it actually better for some not to have love involved?

The topic comes up in relationships where the slave gets the upper hand, or where the dom/mme cannot make themselves be strict or harsh enough (if that be needed) because of love. Perhaps most especially if you find our about this in the middle or a non-bdsm relationship.

Also where the interest is in anonymous scenes, or scenes with many participants.

Any thoughts on this?

Wow, a lot of deep questions.

What is love? Love is a feeling that you know when you have it. I can't explain any better than that.

How does it show itself? This depends on the individual.
How does it change a person? It doesn't, you're still the same person as before one was in love, although you may do stupid things for a while.
How does it change your perception and your ideas of another person? In the early stage, infatuation, you might overlook all their faults. Later one, while still being in love, you know their faults and love them anyway.

What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?
Eros is one kind of love, romantic, there is also brotherly love, parental love, love of things (I'd say this is more of a strong like, though, where we say love but it's not with the same attachment people feel to other people). Pets are in between things and humans I'd say. I love my pets more than my favorite books, but less than my human family.

Is all love monogamous?
No

Can you love only one? (at a time, or in your life) No, I love lots of people, just not in the romantic sense.

If you fall in love with someone, must you fall out of love with others?
No, not necessarily. I have only been in love once, but I think it is possible for others to be in love with more that one person at the same time (eros).

Does love and jealousy follow each other, or are they seperate

I think they are at times related, but you can be jealous with out love and you can love without jealousy.

Can you love without jealousy? Yes, some people can.
Can you be jealous without love? Yes, definitely.

Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead? It's a sign of being unable to control your actions.

What causes crime passionel? Jealousy and lack of control, if that means what I think : Crime of passion?
Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?
Parts of society do, but not all of society. I believe this is changing to be less forgiving of people who commit those crimes.
Or did it, and is now changing attitude? If so, is that ok?
Yes. I keep answering the question ahead of time.

Do you think it is understandable/ok to kill the loved one? Not at all. Just leave if you can't stand it. There is no right to kill them. That is just evil.

Or to kill for love in other situations?
Only if your loved one is directly threatened and you kill someone to protect them from the same fate. I also believe in mercy killing (euthanasia) in cases of terminal illness, and believe that to be an act of love.

D/s and love

Can you have a D/s relationship if there is also love? Yes, I do :)
Can you have a D/s relationship without love? Other people do, so I'm sure it's possible.

Our relationship is based on love first, and D/s (M/s) second. I don't see how it causes a problem. If anything it makes the connection deeper and more meaningful. It is not up to him to be harsh enough to make me be under control. He just has to be dominant and I am wanting to submit already. For us, love does not kill the control or the sex, it enhances it.

I don't know how it would be otherwise, since I don't have the experience, but maybe someone else can comment.

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Originally Posted by thir

What is love?
How does it show itself?
How does it change a person?
How does it change your preception and your ideas of another person?
What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?

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Maybe this is too vague, though thank you ksst for answering at such length :-)

Can I try in another way?

I wonder what people think about the following:

I love him/her and I cannot live without him.
Does one follow from another? Is it a sign of love that you cannot live without the loved person?

We love each other and we belong to each other.
Does loving mean that you belong together, and does belonging together mean some sort of mutual ownership?
If not, how can we explain the feelings of betrayal often connected to someone whose partner has fallen out of love with them? Historical? Religious?

Eternal love
Does true love mean that you love each other all your life?

Love turned to hate.
Is it really possible that love can turn to hate, in some circumstances? How does that happen?


Loving someone means you are more interested in their well being than in your own.
Is this true?
If yes, how do we explain the myriad of expectations we usually have to each other when we form a relationship?

Loving someone means you are as interested in their well being as in your own.
Is this closer to the mark?
How do we combine love with expecting the loved one to follow your own needs?


Does love conquer all?
Meaning: if you love each other, you can solve all problems?

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Originally Posted by ksst

Wow, a lot of deep questions.

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All the more thanks for answering them ;-)

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What is love? Love is a feeling that you know when you have it. I can't explain any better than that.

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See all the new ones.

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I love my pets more than my favorite books, but less than my human family.

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There I think I am possibly rather different from most people, because I love my animals just as much as humans, and always have. People do not understand it, and perhaps neither do I, really, but it is a fact.

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. I have only been in love once, but I think it is possible for others to be in love with more that one person at the same time (eros).

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I am thinking, among other things, about all the cases we hear about where one person in a relationship finds out about the bdsm need in the middle of a relationship, and with a partner who is not interested. If it was generally accepted (as much as it is now generally un-acceptable) that you can love more than one, then maybe more people could find happiness in loving in two different ways: their husband/wife and their Master/Mistress.

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Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead? It's a sign of being unable to control your actions.

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Does mean that a crime of passion might just as well be in anger over something - anything, really - where you loose your head?

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Only if your loved one is directly threatened and you kill someone to protect them from the same fate. I also believe in mercy killing (euthanasia) in cases of terminal illness, and believe that to be an act of love.

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Agreed on both accounts. If it ever came to that, I would be happy to have my dear Leo9 assist me into the void, if could be done legally.

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Originally Posted by thir

I love my animals just as much as humans, and always have. People do not understand it, and perhaps neither do I, really, but it is a fact.

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You might think so, but I tend to doubt it. But let's try a couple of examples:
Let's assume that you are on a low bridge over a flooded, raging river. Just downstream is cataract dropping into a rocky canyon, certain death for anyone going over the edge. Coming towards you are two children, trapped in the flood. You can save one, but not both of them, as the are separated in the flow. One of those children is your own. Which would you save?

I don't think anyone would condemn you for choosing your own child over a stranger, and I think most people would make that same choice. But now, replace your child in the water with your beloved pet. Would you allow even a stranger, a child you do not know and love, to die in order to save your pet? I very much doubt it! I think there are few sane people in this world who would.

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Originally Posted by thir

One thing I am especially interested in is the connection of BDSM with love. If you have a relationship which is far along the contiinum of PE, can your still be in control if you love your sub/slave? We have had problems discussed here that would seem to say 'no'. Is this true?
There are those who prefer a relationship complete seperated from an everyday life, and also from love because, as they put it, 'love would spoil it'. It would kill the control and the sex. The main things is to control and being controlled, to be allowed to be submissive.

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I knew a Master once who gave away his slave because he had fallen in love with her, and felt he wouldn't be able to dominate her any more.

I can't see it myself: if I love someone who needs and responds to domination, that just gives me a stronger reason to dominate her. But I've seen other personality traits get in the way of D/s - my ex-slave couldn't submit to her husband, even though he was a respected Dom, because he was her husband and something in her background wouldn't let the two mix. So I'm prepared to accept that for some people, love and D/s just can't go together.

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There I think I am possibly rather different from most people, because I love my animals just as much as humans, and always have. People do not understand it, and perhaps neither do I, really, but it is a fact. "

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Good for you! I would have to say I love my dogs more than I love some random person that I barely know. But if it came down to a house fire (or the river cataract) where I could choose to save my kids or my dogs it would be no contest (the kids). Or my brother, my inlaws, my nephews and nieces, my parents, or my Master, it would always be the person I would choose.

Some random kid or my beloved dog? I don't know, that would be a hard one. I might pick the one that was closer and easier to grab. Some random dog or some random kid? that is easy- the kid. A lot of people underestimate just how much an animal can mean. Because it is love, and love is not always reasonable.

Now if it was the cat, he's on his own :) And he thinks the same of me.

I wonder what people think about the following:

I love him/her and I cannot live without him.
Does one follow from another? Is it a sign of love that you cannot live without the loved person?

Yes, I believe I have probably said things like that and have that feeling. It's not literally true, but it FEELS true. Whatever that means.

We love each other and we belong to each other.
Does loving mean that you belong together, and does belonging together mean some sort of mutual ownership?
If not, how can we explain the feelings of betrayal often connected to someone whose partner has fallen out of love with them? Historical? Religious?

How about we love each other and I belong to him? Is that the D/s equivalent?

Eternal love
Does true love mean that you love each other all your life?

It does feel that way. No one can really predict the future, or we wouldn't have so many divorces that started out with "... until death do you part. I do".



Love turned to hate.
Is it really possible that love can turn to hate, in some circumstances? How does that happen?

Yes, it seems almost more common than love turning to "eh" The emotion is still there in strength, but something happened to turn it- betrayals, fights, daily irritations, that kind of thing.

Loving someone means you are more interested in their well being than in your own.
Is this true?

Maybe for some, but not for everyone.

If yes, how do we explain the myriad of expectations we usually have to each other when we form a relationship?

Loving someone means you are as interested in their well being as in your own.
Is this closer to the mark?

Yes, in a good relationship I think that is closer to realistic.

How do we combine love with expecting the loved one to follow your own needs?

Give and take, compromise, and communication.

One thing you did not mention, which I feel is the backbone of a long lasting loving relationship is forgiveness. We all screw up, little things, big things, whatever, and if you don't constantly forgive the other person, the irritations are going to grow until you can't tolerate them any more. Like a burr under the horse's saddle. You have to take the saddle off, fix the problem, but then you have to forgive the horse for squirrelling around on you, maybe throwing you off into the dirt, when it was uncomfortable. Or you'll just be mad all day. And the horse has to forgive you for riding when it was uncomfortable, or the horse will still be mad and throw you off again.


Does love conquer all?
Meaning: if you love each other, you can solve all problems?

Not necessarily. You can't love someone enough to cure cancer. Solving problems takes work, it takes communication, and it takes forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by thir

What is love?

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Ah, one of the big ones.

Someone becomes intensely important to you, hir presence and hir involvement in your life make you happy, hir welfare and happiness become at least as important as your own and sometimes more so.

That last part is an essential element. There is another condition, which for want of a better word I'll call possession-need, which is very similar except for the last part. Rapists and stalkers often say that they love the object of their obsession, but are happy to terrorise and abuse hir in order to get possession of hir, and sometimes to kill hir rather than let hir get away. I don't think most people would call that love, but as noted, it shares enough features to be confused with it. I think this is an important point which we'll come back to.

Love also overlaps with but is not the same as sexual attraction. Love for a child or a parent is essentially the same as love for a mate, minus the sexual element: and it is possible to love a non-related fellow adult that you're not in any way sexually attracted to, though it takes some special circumstances.

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How does it change a person?

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At the very least, it can radically rewrite ones priorities. People can give up their home, their job, their religion or politics. One of the reasons Cupid is shown as a child is the chaos love can cause.

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How does it change your preception and your ideas of another person?

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Personally, I usually fall for someone as I get to know her, but I can remember in school falling for a girl who'd been around for years, but who suddenly was for no logical reason enormously important to me. (In a different way from the ones who were newly important to me because I'd discovered sex, and they were it. She wasn't particularly sexy, she was just the one whose name had been on the arrow that hit me. The others I wanted to fuck, rape, whatever pervy things I was learning to imagine: her, I just wanted to hold hands with and gaze into her eyes and tell her what a wonderful person she was.) When that happens in adult life I can imagine the mental upheaval it involves.

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What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?

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Pets I like, but have never really loved. If I put myself out to care for them, it's from a sense of responsiblity, not what I'd call love.

Love of country I don't think is the same, though there are parallels. If you're a patriot, you usually grow up that way, it doesn't come as a sudden discovery.

I like my books, but there are very few I wouldn't throw on the fire if I were freezing.

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Is all love monogamous?
Can you love only one? (at a time, or in your life)
If you fall in love with someone, must you fall out of love with others?

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Speaking as a loving polyamorist, absolutely not. In the early heat of a new love it can feel as if nothing else matters, but that's not the same thing.

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Does love and jealousy follow each other, or are they seperate

Can you love without jealousy?
Can you be jealous without love?

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Now, this is where I am glad I defined the condition of possession-need as something close to love, but without the concern for the welfare or happiness of the object. Because it seems to me that much of what passes for jealousy is the result of mistaking possession-need for love.

If you love someone, you want their happiness. If someone or something makes them happy, that makes you happy.

If you are possession-needy for someone, and someone or something makes them happy, that upsets you because it's taking their attention away from you.

I wonder if the poly theorists have come up with a better word for this? Because I think I've stumbled onto something important here.

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Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead?

What causes crime passionel?

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Like stalking, it's a sign of possession-need.

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Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?

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Historically, society supported it because patriarchial economies depended on the orderly inheritance of property and status, and female infidelity threatened that. (And women needed a husband to survive, and male infidelity threatened that.) Laws on divorce were modelled on property law, and a man who killed an adulterer got the same sympathy from the law as a man who killed a thief.

None of which has anything to do with love, but it provided a societal endorsement of possession-need.

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Or did it, and is now changing attitude? If so, is that ok?

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I think it's more than OK, it's a sign of enlightenment.

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Do you think it is understandable/ok to kill the loved one?

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Barring euthanasia, it's a very sick perversion.

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Or to kill for love in other situations?

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Depends who you're killing.

What is love? How does it show itself?
I think love shows itself in many ways. When I first went with my late wife I don’t think love was there at all. Infatuation possibly, a mutual need for each other’s company and a relationship builds into love. I think it is just a conclusion from the latter. I do not believe in soul mates or real love at first sight, it might be there but it seldom works out.

How does it change a person?
Love does not change a person. Love is only a sense, an essence if you like that is woken up, a new cell in the brain.

How does it change your perception and your ideas of another person?
It doesn’t and why should it? Life is still the same a nothing as changed.

What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?
Pets, I look after my pets, I would be upset if my dog died but she is old and stays outside in her kennel and run. I would be more upset if my cat died because she is young and very good company in the house.

I don’t get married to books, but I read them, pass them on and read another. I do love the stories and being able to use my imagination to the full.

Countries I have been all around the world with the UKSF and not all countries were we fighting. I think I always loved coming home to the UK as the grass is not always greener.

Is all love monogamous?
For me it is/was, I will never find or love another like my late wife. I don’t see that a man that had six wives could love all of them, why have the other five? Greed possibly, he could also be a masochist I suppose...LOL

Can you love only one? (at a time, or in your life)
Let’s get things right, caring, cherishing and friendship and in some cases loyalty are not loving, well not in my outlook of life.

If you fall in love with someone, must you fall out of love with others?
If you want that love to bloom and prosper into a secure relationship, then you have no choice. That does not mean you cannot be friends with them.

Does love and jealousy follow each other, or are they separate
Jealousy has nothing to do with love; it has everything to do with possession. It is a self inflicting wound and the more jealous you become the harder it hurts. I have seen it in people and it is something I have never been party too, I am happy with what I have of my own.

Can you love without jealousy?
A situation while being in love can make a person jealous for a moment in time, but again is that jealousy or looking after what you think you posses?

Can you be jealous without love?
In a million ways, for instance, the next door neighbours car is brand new and the one you really like.

Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead?
Mindless stupidity.

What causes crime passionel?
In most cases it could be a possessive and jealous person; cheating, verbal assault, drink, or a combination of any.

Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?
I don’t think so but some UK liberal judges do.

Or did it, and is now changing attitude? If so, is that ok? Do you think it is understandable/ok to kill the loved one? Or to kill for love in other situations?
To all three, its murder however you look at it, but mitigating circumstances should have a say to the punishment. I believe that in the UK it is dealt with on a case by case situation.

D/s and love, Can you have a D/s relationship if there is also love?
Yes and because of some of the situations that the Dominant puts the submissive in, there needs to be cart loads of it along with loyalty and trust.

Can you have a D/s relationship without love?
I know that I could not, it would be to cold blooded.

Obviously I have plenty of ideas and even more questions, but thought I'd start with just the questions.
Don’t you sleep? Lol.


Be well IAN 2411

What is love?

When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee. .... My fav poet's words....love is like the wind between the trees. Love is wonderful and love can be terrible, it is an emotion. Aristotle would put it above the mean of like but bellow the extreme of destructive obsession.

How does it show itself?

Lots of ways depends on the individuals involved and the situation.

How does it change a person?

It doesn't necessarily have to change one, but it can and again it depends on the individuals and situations.

How does it change your preception and your ideas of another person?

Again it doesn't have to but may and how depends on too many other variables to cover with a quick answer to a non-specific scenario.

What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?

It's just that, love for things other than another person can be just as intense.

Is all love monogamous?

Of course not, yet many people over romanticize themselves into thinking it must be.

Can you love only one? (at a time, or in your life)

Of course not, one can love many different people and things all at the same time. I love my relatives, my husband/owner, my friends, my cat, etc. They don't have to take turns. lol

If you fall in love with someone, must you fall out of love with others?

No

Does love and jealousy follow each other, or are they seperate

Completely separate.

Can you love without jealousy?

Of course.

Can you be jealous without love?

Of course.

Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead?

huh? again my understanding of it fits into the definition of temporary insanity...not some cop out defense for getting away with murder because one was too jealous etc.


What causes crime passionel?

Poor self control, chemical imbalances, overwhelming situational parameters.

Does society support the idea, and, if so, why?

Support the idea of what exactly? Killing the guy who just killed your loved one? Or skipping out of jail after killing a lover who cuckolded one?

Or did it, and is now changing attitude? If so, is that ok?

Again I ask you to please be more specific in what exactly you mean by a crime passionel?

Do you think it is understandable/ok to kill the loved one?

Not unless its to put them out of their misery from a terrible illness etc and they are consensual.

Or to kill for love in other situations?

Avenging the death or rape of one's loved one when catching the individual responsible in the heat of the moment? Yes.

Can you have a D/s relationship if there is also love?

Yes though it is not necessary despite how much most people seem to want it to be.

Can you have a D/s relationship without love?

Of course.

I think I had better change the answer in my post, or rather add to it.

Is crime passionel a sign of love, or of love dead?
Mindless stupidity.

Not all is the above because some are carried out with a lot of forethought.

What causes crime passionel?
In most cases it could be a possessive and jealous person; cheating, verbal assault, drink, or a combination of any.

What if a person helps their spouse to commit medical suicide because they are terminally ill? By either giving them the drugs to do so, or taking them abroad. If they never helped them with this euthanasia the person would die a painful and degrading death in a month, year. Is that really euthanasia, suicide, murder or a crime of passion?

Be well IAN 2411

What if a person helps their spouse to commit medical suicide because they are terminally ill? By either giving them the drugs to do so, or taking them abroad. If they never helped them with this euthanasia the person would die a painful and degrading death in a month, year. Is that really euthanasia, suicide, murder or a crime of passion?
Be well IAN 2411[/QUOTE]

As I see it, it is love.

It is also the hardest thing you'd ever have to do. Talking of this, I am definitly in favour of official suicide in case of terminal illnesses. As it is, it is unbelieveable hard on both spouses to have to go to a foreign country to do it, if indeed you have the money. You two have to take a long trip alone, without any support from family or friends. The survivor will then have to sort all out in a foreign country afterwards. And then take the long long trip home alone.

Instead of doing it in your home, surrounded by friends and family, and with all their support all of which you both are going to need!

Yes, I know there are all kinds of legal difficulties, but that is no reason to let down people in such situations by just letting it slide, instead of getting on with it.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

You might think so, but I tend to doubt it. But let's try a couple of examples:
Let's assume that you are on a low bridge over a flooded, raging river. Just downstream is cataract dropping into a rocky canyon, certain death for anyone going over the edge. Coming towards you are two children, trapped in the flood. You can save one, but not both of them, as the are separated in the flow. One of those children is your own. Which would you save?

I don't think anyone would condemn you for choosing your own child over a stranger, and I think most people would make that same choice. But now, replace your child in the water with your beloved pet. Would you allow even a stranger, a child you do not know and love, to die in order to save your pet? I very much doubt it! I think there are few sane people in this world who would.

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I kind of knew someone would say that. And I do not know what to answer - that pets are also my children.

Did you see the film 'Sophie's Choice'? A KZ camp prisioner, a mother with two children, were forced to choose which one should go in the gas chamber, or they would both have gone. She chose. But she was never a real person after that.

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How do we combine love with expecting the loved one to follow your own needs?

Give and take, compromise, and communication.

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Then maybe it is a sign of love that a person is willing to do that?

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One thing you did not mention, which I feel is the backbone of a long lasting loving relationship is forgiveness. We all screw up, little things, big things, whatever, and if you don't constantly forgive the other person, the irritations are going to grow until you can't tolerate them any more. Like a burr under the horse's saddle. You have to take the saddle off, fix the problem, but then you have to forgive the horse for squirrelling around on you, maybe throwing you off into the dirt, when it was uncomfortable. Or you'll just be mad all day. And the horse has to forgive you for riding when it was uncomfortable, or the horse will still be mad and throw you off again.

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A good point!

Is all love monogamous?
For me it is/was, I will never find or love another like my late wife. I don’t see that a man that had six wives could love all of them, why have the other five? Greed possibly, he could also be a masochist I suppose...LOL
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I hadn't seen from it that perspective :->

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Don’t you sleep? Lol.

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Not a lot lately, but take heart, it will catch up with me ;-)

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Originally Posted by thir

I kind of knew someone would say that. And I do not know what to answer - that pets are also my children.

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I have difficulty with this concept, but then, I'm not a pet person. I just cannot grasp the idea that someone would put the welfare of any animal above the welfare of even an unknown person.

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Did you see the film 'Sophie's Choice'?

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No, I've never seen it. But people, both men and women, have been facing such choices since the dawn of humanity. It's a choice I wouldn't want to have to make myself. But we're not talking about choosing between two of your children, but between a child, or any person really, and an animal! One shouldn't even have to think about it.

When love beckons to you, follow him,Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound thee. .... My fav poet's words....love is like the wind between the trees. Love is wonderful and love can be terrible, it is an emotion.

I think you have mentioned this beautiful poem before, but I have forgotten what it is called?

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Aristotle would put it above the mean of like but bellow the extreme of destructive obsession.

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Hm. That is not a bad way of saying it.

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What about love for other than persons? Pets? Countries? Books?

It's just that, love for things other than another person can be just as intense.

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I think so too..

Of course not, one can love many different people and things all at the same time. I love my relatives, my husband/owner, my friends, my cat, etc. They don't have to take turns. lol

Well said ;-)

Or to kill for love in other situations?

Avenging the death or rape of one's loved one when catching the individual responsible in the heat of the moment? Yes.

Is that love or revenge? Is revenge out of love? (I mean, in such a case as this).

I am sorry I am still too vague with some of the other questions, maybe I can come up with something more specific.

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Originally Posted by leo9

That last part is an essential element. There is another condition, which for want of a better word I'll call possession-need, which is very similar except for the last part. Rapists and stalkers often say that they love the object of their obsession, but are happy to terrorise and abuse hir in order to get possession of hir, and sometimes to kill hir rather than let hir get away. I don't think most people would call that love, but as noted, it shares enough features to be confused with it. I think this is an important point which we'll come back to.

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I have had thoughts like that but much too uncelar to put into words. Thank you :-)

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Love also overlaps with but is not the same as sexual attraction. Love for a child or a parent is essentially the same as love for a mate, minus the sexual element: and it is possible to love a non-related fellow adult that you're not in any way sexually attracted to, though it takes some special circumstances.

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I have had a love who got too sick to have a sex life, I did not stop loving him for that.

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At the very least, it can radically rewrite ones priorities. People can give up their home, their job, their religion or politics. One of the reasons Cupid is shown as a child is the chaos love can cause.

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Well put! We have seen on more than one thread how this can work, for better and sometimes for far worse.

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Personally, I usually fall for someone as I get to know her, but I can remember in school falling for a girl who'd been around for years, but who suddenly was for no logical reason enormously important to me. (In a different way from the ones who were newly important to me because I'd discovered sex, and they were it. She wasn't particularly sexy, she was just the one whose name had been on the arrow that hit me. The others I wanted to fuck, rape, whatever pervy things I was learning to imagine: her, I just wanted to hold hands with and gaze into her eyes and tell her what a wonderful person she was.)

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Love as temporary insanity. It really is!

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When that happens in adult life I can imagine the mental upheaval it involves.

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Oh Yes!

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Now, this is where I am glad I defined the condition of possession-need as something close to love, but without the concern for the welfare or happiness of the object. Because it seems to me that much of what passes for jealousy is the result of mistaking possession-need for love.

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Some, but by no means all!
But I think it is an important point, and very useful to take into account when you choose a spouse.

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If you love someone, you want their happiness. If someone or something makes them happy, that makes you happy.
If you are possession-needy for someone, and someone or something makes them happy, that upsets you because it's taking their attention away from you.

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In very general terms, yes. Like people who cannot bear to let their partner have friends, or an job, or take an education, for example.

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I wonder if the poly theorists have come up with a better word for this? Because I think I've stumbled onto something important here.

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Not just important for poly people, but for everybody in choosing a partner. As I see it, there has to be space and respect for everybody's needs. It means that you can expect your needs to be at least listenened to in an acccepting way, even if you cannot see how to meet them. Or, if your needs initially upsets your partner, after they have had a chance to catch up with themselves.

I have some trouble understanding relationships where someone comes out and to say something that is really important to them, maybe something that was hard to get around to saying, and it just gets brushed off.

If it is imortant for your partner, then it is important for you and for the relationship, not just in an ethical way, but de facto. As true as important things make or break relationships.

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Originally Posted by thir

I have had a love who got too sick to have a sex life, I did not stop loving him for that.

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But you were still sexually attracted to him, or at least, to the man he had been when he was healthy, right? Sexual attraction doesn't have to be consumated to be part of love: plenty of people feel intense desire for online loves they've never held hands with.

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Personally, I usually fall for someone as I get to know her, but I can remember in school falling for a girl who'd been around for years, but who suddenly was for no logical reason enormously important to me. (In a different way from the ones who were newly important to me because I'd discovered sex, and they were it. She wasn't particularly sexy, she was just the one whose name had been on the arrow that hit me. The others I wanted to fuck, rape, whatever pervy things I was learning to imagine: her, I just wanted to hold hands with and gaze into her eyes and tell her what a wonderful person she was.)

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Love as temporary insanity. It really is!

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Not necessarily temporary. If she'd in any way returned my feelings, I can readily imagine a timeline where we became a deeply loving couple and even married. Good thing it never happened, because I'd guess she was pure vanilla, and I was too confused about my sexuality at that age to understand that I could only be lastingly happy with someone whose kinks matched mine; but that's another thread.

I

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s all love monogamous?
I don’t see that a man that had six wives could love all of them, why have the other five? Greed possibly, he could also be a masochist I suppose...LOL

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I hadn't seen from it that perspective :->[/QUOTE]



I'm safe from having second/third/however many wives move in because this is how my Master sees it. He says he'd have to be a masochist to want more than one. LOL

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and it is possible to love a non-related fellow adult that you're not in any way sexually attracted to, though it takes some special circumstances.

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I was thinking about this yesterday and how many non related adult friends I have that I would consider using the word love for my feelings about them. This is a totally non sexual/non romantic love - the love of deep appreciation of their character and being. Almost like adopting them into the family as a honorary aunt or uncle. I came up with a few people I feel that way about. One of my friends/mentors died when she was only 45, and I still feel her loss as much as any family member years later.

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I was thinking about this yesterday and how many non related adult friends I have that I would consider using the word love for my feelings about them. This is a totally non sexual/non romantic love - the love of deep appreciation of their character and being. Almost like adopting them into the family as a honorary aunt or uncle. I came up with a few people I feel that way about. One of my friends/mentors died when she was only 45, and I still feel her loss as much as any family member years later.

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Friendships can easily include love. Or so I function.

Most people seem to see love as an action, a doing, a thought process. I pondered Love for years. I realized that love is also a noun (a person place or thing) as such I find once I found that place and reside in it I love automatically. I can love someone and still not like them. Love is a state of being, not a feeling, The verb form is mostly used for the word.

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Originally Posted by Hamishlacastle

I can love someone and still not like them.

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That I do not understand - ?