psychology

Hey all,

This is another boring gwenPost that no one will reply to.

I'm looking for ideas about why people get in to this sort of thing. BDSM, fetishes, &c. Nature vs nurture is always interesting, of course.

I'm searching both proffessional trained psychs and personal opinions (nothing too corny tho. <g>)

I used to have a bunch of stuff like this but unfortunately that bookmark file is long gone.

This is about 50% of the story here:

The rest is probably too much Cinemax. Death Wish II and A Clockwork Orange seen at too young an age.

Hi Gwen,

I have likewise been interested in the nature versus nurture issue. Whenever I receive email about my stories, one of the questions I always ask in my reply is how the sender became interested in bondage. The almost universal reply (only one exception) is that they have been interested ever since they can remember. The interest was just always there, part of the background. There was no single event or series of events that seems to have sparked the interest, it was just there. This is true in my own case as well. This would tend to indicate nature over nurture. Is it genetic? Hard to tell. It's not the sort of question most people ask their parents, so building a case for inheritance might be difficult, but my informal poll, although entirely anecdotal and unscientific, is heavily weighted in that direction. What about your own interest--nature or nurture? Does anyone else have an opinion as to how his or her own interest developed? I would especially like to hear from people who make an argument on the nurture side.

Quote:

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Harold: There was no single event or series of events that seems to have sparked the interest, it was just there. This is true in my own case as well. This would tend to indicate nature over nurture.

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Are you saying an interest in childhood tie-up games etc? In my case I can't help wondering how the other kids involved turned out! I don't recollect whether I instigated all the games, but I certainly did some of the time. Did they foster a BDSM tendency or were the tie-up games somehow an exploration of a pre-existing inclinatione?

All very interesting. I know for sure that we'd rather they found a cure for cancer first, but it's odd that we really don't know the answer to what seems a simple question of whether our sexuality is innate.

BF

I have no clue as to how it all works out.
But I know this: I for one appreciate Bondage and Discipline themes but not Sado Masochism. I believe those that appreciate BD are ones who trully believe in trust and respect. From both the Dominant and the dominee. For the dominee it is a conception of giving away a part of your freedom of mobility to gain freedom to your desires. Things that you want that may seem too frivolous for you but that you can readily accept because of the bondage imposing 'no choice'. Making decisions is also something that some people fear, and that in a way frees you from that. It is also soothing to be held tight, and bondage helps in that regards.
As for the Dominant, it is compassion to the dominee that creates this bond. Perhaps not as much the feeling of ownership over the dominee but but a strong chain link between the two...

My two cents, probably far off.

I had no ideas of Dominance submission before meeting the 1st guy i lived with. My parents were neither Dom or sub, tho' in retrospect, perhaps my mom was subservient to my Dad, but not obviously so.

i think there are many cases when it is a physécal make up, .. eg. i was a C cup at 14, so tended to get years of battering ear drums about my udders and my 1st livein lover happened to be a dominant guy. After 3 1/2 yrs. with him, i was fairly well domesticated to His Life style. Only when he ran out on me, leaving me with all his debts, that i slowly realised a 'Dom.' isn't necessarily someone you can respect.

All couples have a Leader and a follower but which is which can be to do with twist of Fate too?

(blush)

I am into psychology and I analized and have a pretty good idea of why people get into this sort of stuff. However, my analysis would be pretty long, so if anyone is interested let me know and I'll write it as an essay. And if not then no problem, maybe it's more fun to figure it out on your own. :)

To which sort of "stuff" are you referring? BDSM or writing?

I got into writing when I was in my freshman year of high school. My choice to do that wasn't motivated by any sort of psychology, it was based mostly on boredom. I wrote in classes that were not challenging. I wrote in classes that I could pass without listening. I also wrote because I enjoyed it.

BDSM I got into (and I hate saying "I got into" BDSM) during my sophomore year of high school. Again, it wasn't a psychological need or determination that motivated my foray into BDSM. It was mostly curiosity and exploration. I enjoyed tying my girlfriend up while we had sex or took pictures. I also enjoyed having her dress in different sorts of clothing for me. My favorite was a red sundress that she had, without panties or bra. And she would do those things for me because she knew they pleased me and aroused me. From there, I started reading the Gor books. I happened to find them in a used book store near my house. I started reading the first two or three and by the end of the year, I had read the entire series, except for about four books. Needless to say, they were good reads and had some nice sci-fi values, but they didn't contribute to my appreciation of BDSM any at all.

My real appreciation of BDSM started in my second year of college. I started reading the books and really getting into practicing BDSM. My girlfriend at the time and I took turns switching roles, just to see what we enjoyed. I don't want to go into specifics about that relationship, except to say it ended poorly. It didn't sour my taste on BDSM, though. Every single relationship I have had since then have had aspects of BDSM in them, even if they might not have been BDSM relationships.

My story ends like this: I met a submissive woman online, in a chat room. She agreed to come stay with me and be my real life submissive. Over the course of the last three to four years, our relationship has evolved from dominant and submissive to husband and wife. We still try to maintain some semblance of a BDSM life, even though time doesn't really allow it much anymore. Life has a way of challenging you, either with a full-time job and overtime work, by immigration to your wife's country of origin, by preparing a business plan so you can open your own store, or by the expectation of your first child.

All in all, though, I like my life. I enjoy writing and I enjoy BDSM. However, my motivations for both were not related to anything of any particular psychological value. Just boredom and interest.

Distinction between "boredom and INTEREST" and psychological value is in question now though.

One could ask what is the psychological reason for your interest?
Did boredom lead you to read a book about said subject, which in turn picked your curiosity?

I believe there must ALWAYS be an initiator for any motivation, a psychological/biological reasoning of one or more elements that make people think the way they do. The same could be said about what we like and what we see as being attractive, as being a turn on, as being a positive trait that we look for in other people...

Emotions like 'interest' all come from the eyes of the beholder, and thus may relate to any number of factors that could be known or even subliminal. Either way, I believe there is a reasoning behind every action, knowingly or unknowingly.

I'm up to 4 cents.

Technically, everything any human ever does fills some kind of need, psychological, biological, or otherwise. We speak because we want to express ourselves. We eat because we're hungry. We have sex either to procreate or for physical pleasure.

So, if you look at it in a technical sense, then everything we do is motivated by some kind of need.

However, many things can also be looked at in a philosophical, "I think therefore I am" sort of sense and realize that sometimes desperation breeds greed and boredom breeds necessity.

Furthermore, you could look at things in a religious perspective and figure that you are hungry because you have not had your loaves and fishes, and you want sex to further the species as long as you're married, and you have been given the gift of writing by god.

So, yes, we are motivated by necessity or desire or even psychology or religion or whatever. That's what makes us work, our motivation. However, not every want is selfish and not every need is psychological.

I love debating psychology.

So, would you say nurture or nature?

If we assume that 'all that has been thought out has had a basis to warrant that thought', then no single individual is creative enough to make forth a concept or appreciating a concept without it having intrigued him in the first place or having been derived from other concepts wich relate to it.

White Wolf could not create without basing themselves on a concept that was taken from folklore of which it is derived from, and thus no individual could stumble upon said idea without any connecting concepts helping them out. Since most types of pleasures come from biological synapses of "pleasurable stimuli", and since given subject could be mainly psychological as it passes to the brain and not as a physical stimuli, then one would guess that that pleasurable stimuli that some would call BDSM is created by a link to some pleasurable experience that had involved something relating to BDSM. Consequently, I would perceive it as being nurture.

Of course, if we conceive that nature dictates nurture, then there would be no conflict?

Psychology never having been my strong subject,
my 6 cents probably aren't worth much.

F

... but I would put some emphasis on nature as well.

It is in our basest of beings that we are animals. We "should" act like savages. Men "should" dominate society, watch over the young and the community and have many mates. Women "should" nurture the young, hunt and gather and provide emotinal balance. That's how animals act, almost exclusively, in nature.

However, because we are free-thinking, we have decided that the laws of nature shouldn't apply to us. Humans, as a species, are aggresive, they expand their borders in direct conflict with their environment and landscape. Humans are generally inefficient and somewhat dumb, as animals go.

We believe we must have "things." We must own big homes, drive big cars, make lots of money and be successful, as seen by our peers. If you look only at nature, none of that should matter a bit to humans. We should be happy with food, shelter, sex, and sleep.

However, this is WAY off topic. My mere observation is that I don't believe my interest in BDSM or writing was necessarily based upon any particular psychological aspect. I believe it simply interested me and I wanted to pursue it. So, it was more of a conscious decision, rather than a psychological need.

Creativity doesn't come exclusively from the advent of new ideas, but also in building on the ideas which others have had before you. Trust me, in our society of bell-bottoms, tube tops, sandals and super-thin, unhealthy looking women, original ideas are few and far between.

However, it is the person or people that take others' ideas and do something truly unique with them that measures creativity and imagination, in my opinion. That's what I try to do, both in my writing and in BDSM.

Psychology is my strong suit. It was my major in college. :)

I disagree with you on many of those accounts.

First of all, most animal species aren't at all as you describe them. Some female spider species eat the males after breeding, most lion species, the females do all the hunting, some cat species are totally solitary except for that short span in which they copulate, some wolf species it is the community that counts, some fish species it is the male who protects the young... Nature is varied...

As for free thinking... I still doubt that. I see our own free thinking as being as evolved as that of most other species. As for expanding borders in conflict with their environment, you should look no further than the canadian beaver who floods areas and brings down live trees for housing.

The belief of having to own things is as simple as the birds and the bees. Some bird species, the males build impressive houses only to attract females, some collect oddities to do the same, and wolves prove their strength to become the leaders and get all the females without having to hunt. The American Way Of Life only pushed this even further as creating that need in us. Or do you believe that this need actually comes from "free thinking", and that we do this without any prior explanation? Or is it really that same need to own things as ôhe need for the wolf leader to be the strongest?

I believe all interest must spawn from a desire that was created at some point, be it consciously or subconsciously, known or unknown... I for one am not sure about my own reasoning behind my interest, but I do have some clues and may someday find out with more introspection.

In otherwords, I say people get in to it because of some relating, positive experience and connect that with the general concept of BDSM. This follows that they try it again to get that positive experience again and then get even more relating positive experiences which then create a need...

This rule not only applies to the subject at hand, but also with your first sexual experience, first pay check, or even, horrors of horrors, getting praise for the accomplishment of an evil deed. Psychological instances and nurture dictate our likes and our dislikes as that is the way our nature deems it.
Now we can ask, the chicken, or the egg? I say the chicken runs the show, but the egg came first. (Nurture runs the show, but nature came first)

Up to 8 cents. May start being worth something in a few years...

F.

Interesting discussion.

I think that it would be very difficult to generalize about people's interest in BDSM. For there are nearly as many shades of interest in these matters as there are stories on this site.

I'm fairly confident that nearly every one of us is regularly surprised by the kinds of things, and the kinds of stories that turn other people on. I also have a feeling that many of the men who frequent our little corner of the world would be surprised by how many women drop by; and the women, like the men, are probably coming, psychically, from every conceivable kinky corner of the erotic cosmos.

I suspect that there is one great divide that separates most of us here into two camps; I think that there are a good many people here, of whom I am one, for whom these stories are entirely fantasy. Despite the high level of sexual violence in my stories, I have no interest whatever in engaging in any sort of dominance/submission or violence in real life.

Others do, of course. And as long as it is consensual, that is fine with me (here, life differs from art -- generally speaking, I don't care for BDSM stories which are largely consensual).

Personally, I think the differences that separate our various friendly factions are at least as interesting as the differences that separate us from the more vanilla world around us.

How many of us are satisfied with the safe, vicarious thrills that we find here? And how many actively pursue such thrills in the real world -- or long to?

Boccaccio

You explain it very well Boccassio,

Thankyou.
millie

I just have to comment on the "female lions do all the hunting" thing. Sorry. This is a common misconception that was perpetrated by some well meaning but dumb "nature" specials. If you are talking about African lions, most males are solitary or paired with another male, and these obviously do all of their own hunting. Those males who have established a pride and have a bunch of females also participate. The most common method is for the females to sneak around and then charge, driving the prey toward the larger and stronger male, who then executes the kill. The males are also charged with defending the pride from hyenas, which are the lion's main natural enemy.

Since all of the other large cats are mainly solitary except when breeding, they all do their own hunting.

I just knew you would want to know. Now I am going to tie something up. Maybe the cat...

So, essentially, this is another thread where we have agreed to disagree??

So, BDSM TourGuide (can you get a shorter name, please??) when you were bored, did you turn to bdsm because it was somewhere in your nature, rather than turning to stamp collecting? Had you heard about it, and filed it away in the back of your mind? Did you see a movie - maybe 10 years earlier - and decide to follow up now? Or was it always a part of your nature, and the time to explore just happened to meet the time you happened to be bored??

I've always wondered why people seem to want to pidgeonhole these things. What's that saying? Infinite diversity in infinite combinations, or something like that!

Amanda's Spankee, Ph.D.

whoops, just wanted to come back and clarify this. I addressed this to BDSM_TG because I have been talking to him over the last few days, not because I disagree with him or his ideas. I agree with everybody; I believe that everyone's motivations come from their own self. I never understood how anyone can separate nature/nurture; both completely influence who we are. Even siamese twins have differences!
All we can really do is hope to understand ourselves as much as possible, so we know why we do the things we do.
And that's my .02 worth.

... I got into writing because I was bored. BDSM I got into because I thought it was neat.

Quiet, Sylvie! Don't analyse everything, just go with the flow :)

Actually, I got into writing 'cause I have a great imagination, and I was forced into bdsm by my sub.

Now if I just had time for both of them .... well, writing out & planning playtime will have to do for now!

Okay, I hope this makes some form of sense to at least someone out there as I am extremely exhausted and I have no psychology background what-so-ever. I have no knowledge of the mating habits and aggresiveness of wild beasts, so I will stick to what I know best...myself.

Up until I was about 16 years old I was very niave when it came to matters of sex and lust. I knew nothing at all about it. My first boyfriend whom I had sex with would basically do his thing, toss me my clothes and walk out. I thought that was normal. I knew nothing of foreplay or sexual gratification. I don't think that I even knew what an orgasm was. All I know is that I didn't enjoy it in the least.

Now we go on to the next boyfriend. I was a little more sexually motivated by this time and knew a little more. But sex was BORING. I couldn't help but think "Is this it? Doesn't sex get anymore interesting than this?" Well needless to say, it didn't. AT least not with him.

Then I cuaght an episode of Real Sex on HBO late one night that had a bit on BDSM. I was stunned. I was appalled...yet I couldn't look away. I was amazed at what lengths people went through to "get off". The more I thought about it though, the more I realized that that was what had been missing.

"Vanilla sex" as many like to call it, was no fun for me. At first I didn't know why, but then it started to grow on me.

I guess I am kind of like my Master in that respect. I started into BDSM because of boredom...sexual boredom. I got no satisfaction from conventional sex and found I had to go to more extremes than the average person (as I knew what average was back then)

I think my submission came by nature and nurture. It started out as being natural. It seemed to be the only right choice for me. As time went on, it was nurture because of the training I recieved and places like this where we can discuss our interests, it nurtured my natural desire. It made it grow into something more than just a passing fantasy into a reality.

I can't define the exact moment I KNEW of my role or my interests because they are constantly changing, growing, expanding. My tastes have changed dramatically since I first started, and I am sure, given time, the will change somemore. I just flow with what I am feeling, give in to the need to fulfill some part of me. I hope this makes sense, because at nearly 6 am, not much does to me. :)

This does make sense - figure out what you want, and go with it! A lot of people are bored by vanilla sex, but they don't know there is a choice. I shouldn't say vanilla sex, because I'm sure there are people bored in the bdsm world, too.
The main thing is, you have to get to know yourself well enough to know what you want, and then find a way to get it. Lots of people don't bother delving inside their heads, so they always feel something is missing, but they don't know what.
Be glad you know yourself, and were able to make the change.

There is a reason for everything, just as their usually is a stimulus for everything, even if it's not realised at the time, some period after etc. The stimulus may be positive or it may be negative. It doesn't necessarily have to produce a pleasurable response at the time. But it's usually more than one stimulus. Much like the Wave Theory in physics.
As for the genetic? It could be possible, as everyone has preferences. Psychological tests that have been undertaken to discuss the theory of 'Blank Slate' vs Innate have shown that even babies show preferences after adapting to a certain type of stimulus.
So are preferences innate? In a way yes. It's how we are wired up, so people might prefer some elements in BDSM..not all elements, I can't say that the idea of nipple torture turns me on, it doesn't, but to others it does.
That being said, I can say that if I backtrack a bit I can say that my very first 'stimulus' was being taken out to the cinema with a group of adults one evening (this was the 70's), the movie showing wasn't an adult movie, however one feature that 'shocked' me (or made me sit up and take notice) was the fact that this man completely overpowered a woman physically, slapped her a couple of times and then she gave in. No nudity, no 'simulated' sex, it was just for one kiss, but that image I remember now when I'm 32, and I saw it when I was 6. The other aspect is the fact that my father was a very big man, tall and imposing, but not violent or verbally abusive to my mother, but I remember his stature but I also remember his capacity for losing his temper (not to me) but in general. I had a very good relationship with my father, he had a lot of time for me and respected me as a child, however over the years there have been snippets of images like that when I was 6 years old, and I add it all up, especially after not being satisfied in some relationships or having relationships completely disintegrate, and I realise it's because I'm not the 'domineering' game playing woman, I need a man to be a 'man' in terms of Domination and I don't mean a few slaps on the ass while I'm giving fellatio, that's just too stereotypical and has nothing to do with BDSM in my mind.


So sure, there is always a catalyst.


:)

Now that I really sit down and think about it, I can't really come up with a reason why I ended up liking bondage. We didn't play many tie-up games as kids, and I wasn't into those lovely childhood games that revolve around getting hurt if you're the loser either (seriously? Why _did_ we all play games like that?). Probably the earliest sign for me would've been when I was ten or eleven, and I got fairly excited sometimes watching TV shows where people would be tied up and have icky stuff done to 'em (to this day I still think Alanis Morisette looked her best getting slimed on You Can't Do That On Television :) ).

Then in my teenage years I did a bit of self-bondage with my clothes when I masturbated, but didn't really think about it and kinda fell out of the habit after a while. Wasn't really until a year or two after highschool that I conciously got interested in kinky bondage stuff and started looking it up online.

And now for a pointless tangent.

"From there, I started reading the Gor books."

Ah the Gor books. You'd never have thought from my early reaction to 'em (I tried reading one when I was eight or nine and just skimmed the kinky bits to get to the fight scenes). And these day I'm one of those horribly mean people who buys the smuttiest Gor novels and skims the kinky bits _and_ the action scenes to read the psychology bits for a laugh :)


Rallan
- oh alright, so I don't skim _all_ the kinky bits

If you offest the text you want to underline with [ u ] at the beginning and [ / u ] at the end, the vbb coding will underline any text withing the two bracketed codes.

I thought it might be helpful.

You can also click the little "u" box above the message box and enter the text which you wish to underline.

Sorry, picked up some lousy habits on chatrooms, forums, and mailing lists that don't support any sort of formatting at all.




rallan

What turns you on ... now?

As we progress thru' Life, our experiences, well, Sexperiences, both real and imaginary tend to change for most people.

i had a very healthy up-bringing, in my opinion, as my parents were married before i was born and comfortably hard up. Moderately religous and i never heard them row or have noisy sex.
i have a younger and older sister, two years apart between us, so tended to get the hand-me-downs but not as unfortunate as my younger sister. Whether my parents ever wanted a boy, i never asked or cared. Life was evolved around school, church, country and town. No one swore or even considered rudeness.

At 16, i was determined to lose my virginity and met a moderately 'nice' boy that was fairly considerate and took care of that for me. An Uncle of mine told me the advantages of consuming male Protein and that kinda thrilled me, also seemed to work over the years, as i am not too big, not too small and never had acne. The b/friend took care of that for me too and we spent a lot of time in cinemas, where i saw little of the film. Eventually progressing to back and front of car seats.

Perhaps at that stage, i reached the point of needing more and met my b/friend's older brother. He taught me almost everything i know today, being exceptionally variable and dominant. i lived with Him for 5yrs. He left me and His debts behind, taking just His personal effects and dog. i went back home to mom & dad and subsequently married a 'nice' (vanilla) farmer guy and now happily married with 3 babes, this time, two boys and youngest, a daughter.

By now you will all be dozing off to sleep. However, my point is that i only wish that i knew about 'Insex' when my b/f. departed, as i would have happily filled in the Form showing minimalistic restrictions and would have loved to be used in scenes like below and also be used for Dairy production.
But now (sigh!) Have to wait to be re-born.

I am semi-reading this book. I can’t read it in its entirety for another couple of weeks. Its Imperial Leather: Race, Gender and Sexuality in the Colonial Contest by Anne McClintock. She says some interesting things. It’s a different view, and one that I can handle as I dislike psychology. I prefer sociology. This book deals with a kind of micro/macro power.
At one point she says that it is “less a biological flaw, or in the pathological expression of natural male aggression and natural female passivity, than it is an organized subculture shaped around the ritual exercise of social risk and social transformation.”
“To argue that in S/M “whoever is the ‘master’ has power and whoever is the slave has not,” is to read theater for reality; it is to play the world forward. The economy of S/M, however, is the economy of conversion; master to slave, adult to baby, power to submission, man to woman, pain to pleasure, human to animal and back again. S/M, as Foucault puts it, “constitutes one of the greatest conversions of Western imagination; unreason transformed into delirium of the heart. S/M is a theater of transformation; it plays the world backward.”
“S/M is high theater; “beautifully suited to symbolism.” As theater, S/M borrows its décor, props and costumery (bonds, chains, ropes, blindfolds) and its scenes (bedrooms, kitchens, dungeons, convents, prisons, empire) from the everyday cultures of power. At the same time, with its exaggerated emphasis on costumery, script and scene, S/M reveals that social order is unnatural, scripted and invented."

Thanks pandemonium, I'm so totally gonna lift that phrase whenever an online discussion about bdsm comes up elsewhere and I totally and utterly fail to get the vibe across. That whole conversion and theatre thing covers it very nicely.


rallan
- an' it's like, all eloquent an' shit

Please do not post insex they have a habbit of taking people site owners to court where large amounts of money exchange hands. If that is not a insex pic sorry it looks like one.

Yours always

Dear Mobius,
Thankyou for warning. The defence only being that if i lived my Life again, i'd love to model for Them. But alas, will have to stick at what i'm best at now. A Dairy hucow.

xxx