Fantasy vs. Stark Reality...

On Fantasy vs. Stark Reality



Nearly a lifetime spent fantasizing, without actually experiencing some kind of event powered S&M motivations, seemed inane at best. Life was, after all, too short not to experience the thing for real. Time was long overdue for some kind of entrance into the actual BDSM lifestyle.


Intrepidly, not just one but several “munches” were attended. Munches, so named by their founder as a sort of social safety net that would not imply participation by the merely curious, appeared to be a welcomed introduction to the lifestyle.

Sadly, a string of disappointments from these events proved consistent. The more experienced at these conclaves proved to offer much less than anticipated. Cottage cheese thighs, beer bellies, love handles, et al… No amount of preparation could have cushioned the fall from dreamland to real life. Each munch, and there were some that took the extra step into actual BDSM lifestyle play, were mainly attended by social outcasts ofone stripe or another.

Now, facile thinking dictates that this critical observation comes from a novice-one not committed to sado-masochism, way superficial, an outcast himself, or just too“vanilla”(another term loftily used by the community in question to describe those with more mainstream thinking). But then there's the ‘lifetime’ bit of this same would-be lifestyle novice. A lifetime that also includes literature, an extensive intimate relationship with a like-minded feminine beauty, writing, day dreaming, communicating on the subject, etc. This sort of background would seem to indicate more cause than just the easy 'vanilla' answer.

Not since the last volume of health officials’ DVSM was written and printed has there been such a parade of hefty misfits. Take the only-skin-deep issue of body weight. Closely monitoring things like diet, food intake, daily exercise, notice of appearance and the previously held secret notion of sexual kinyness kept this mature male fit-all notions apparently not considered significant by lifestyle BDSM’ers. Munches were largely, and here LARGELY is the operative word, by the overweight, those with considerable paunchiness, the morbidly obese, those who consider the bending of an elbow or the raising of an oven mitt exercise enough; and those for whom food, any kind of food intake, is more akin to tanking up than nourishing oneself. Okay, even the aforementioned ‘beauty’ has remarked that her sex tends to carry weight in specific areas just as males do, but really! Where is the self-respect? Or, the respect for others? Of course the argument could be made that I was mistaken to attend expecting others to also be in shape and wrong for making superficial, snap judgments of others, and so forth...

If daily exercise for you happens, for whatever reason, to not be a personal preference do keep in mind the obvious. It does take some discipline to keep to a routine and it’s not all that easy, but the results do make it all worthwhile. Whatever habits you choose, just don’t mindlessly lump into the ranks of the pudgy, however kinky you or they may seem to be.

Talking in such social settings, forbid that conversations go anywhere further, is much like conversing with a dullard, dunce, geek or seeing a dim light at the far end of a very, very narrow tunnel. Pain? Yes it IS needed at these events. If for no other reason than just to pinch one’s self in order to keep from nodding off during yet another BDSM discourse. Again, this is not coming from some elitist posing as this century’s answer to Einstein; but at least a notion of childishly dumb egocentricity fled in the pre-teen years.

Naturally, or un-naturally if you will, only bigotry would take this smallish sampling of lifestylers and rule out any stimulating practitioners of BDSM/S&M/D/s existing anywhere else in the world. One does know better than to commit such folly (Apologies if you happen to be one of those stimulating few).

But should you likewise be curious and seek to realize a life-long fantasy life, be forewarned. It should come as no great surprise that what happens in real life frequently falls way short of desires your head and body may hold. Be prepared to significantly lower your bar of expectations. Keep in mind the notion that when pride flees hope sometimes remains. The faint glimmer that reality might somehow, someday come close to matching fantasy becomes not all that much of a dream..
Times Roman On Fantasy vs. Reality On Fantasy vs. Reality

in bondageology. Lade da. Im so glad that you find your self in the 5 percent of the population. That is of the epitome of body beautiful. So you can look down on the unclean in your eyes masses of rest of us. Get over your self BDSM is 90 percent in the mind not the body. If you want to play you will not always have Jenna Jemison to play with. So put down your way over used thesorous and pick up a wip and play.

Yes when you go to a event wether it is swinging or nudist or bdsm you will allways find what you dont want to see.
If you go to the nudist resort your not going to find erotic people prancing around naked. Erotic people are not into it. They are to busy diating and exersising to stay erotic. That is there thing. They dont have time to play. There to busy binging and purging to play.
So stop looking in the mirror admiring your self and loosen up.

Fantasy is never the same as real life. Fantasy is created by one (or in some cases more) person and is designed to entertain. No-one wants to read how your main character tripped over on a hub-cap during a daring rescue of Ms D. Distress, thus condemning her to something creatively horrible; such things aren't written, dreamed about or filmed.
Real-life, however, features such things. Don't be surprised, even if spoils the fantasy.

Mobius... maybe that was a bit harsh, although you made some good points. People aren't as perfect as we are educated to believe via the lovely technology of TV, and personally I don't like Jenna Jamison.

Faibhar wrote:

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But should you likewise be curious and seek to realize a life-long fantasy life, be forewarned. It should come as no great surprise that what happens in real life frequently falls way short of desires your head and body may hold. Be prepared to significantly lower your bar of expectations. Keep in mind the notion that when pride flees hope sometimes remains. The faint glimmer that reality might somehow, someday come close to matching fantasy becomes not all that much of a dream..

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I have never been to a scene. Never experienced anything in BDSM outside of what woodsman and I do privately, but I would have imagined it to be much like you described.

I walk out in public everyday and see that the majority of us are not sleek and attractive. If I went to a scene, I would expect to find what I see on the street: a great variety of people with few great beauties.

Reality and fantasy are what we make of it. In the American ideal, beauty comes with slim thighs and washboard stomachs.
In other cultures, big is beautiful. Men look for women whose ample bodies symbolize wealth and comfort. They delight in feeling the soft mounds of voluptuous flesh and laying their heads on round bellies and large buttocks, or in the case of BDSM, laying their whips on these areas. =)

I have looked at pictures of many different people on this site, the often fake pictures of the websites and the real pictures of those who have shared with us their personal photos. The real ones are so much more erotic to me, for I can imagine that they were taken during real scenes of passion.
When I see the website pictures, I imagine the woman getting up when its done, grabbing her pay and walking out, bored with the entire shoot.

I am not saying that beautiful people cannot be passionate, of course. I am saying that the eroticism and the arousal comes from what goes on in the mind more than the body.

I would find it hard to be aroused or comfortable even in a scene like you described, but I would have difficulty even if the people were beautiful, I would think. It would all seem so staged and fake, a show rather than a real encounter.

... one more thought
In vanilla life, most people have sex but few are are willing to play out their sex scenes in public. I certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions about who participates in BDSM from going to one of these scenes.

Thank you all for your considered replies. Lord Douche and woodsman's game clearly had something to say, but Mobius, with a unique approach to syntax, provided the defining message on real lifestyle in the BDSM community.

Clearly, the message must be that one should really lower one's expectations, compromise, settle for much less, play stupid, negate all standards and by all means, never be without one's thesorous (sic) when entering into a play zone.
Oh, and don't forget to "loosen up"(?).

... to be happy with what you have.

I do believe that woodsman'sgame has made the most perceptive comments. She is onto what is the core of our existance. BDSM is the state of mind that we bring to the interface with the real world and the greatest beauty is found at the personal photography thread. The bodies may not satisfy the ideal that the media promulgates but they are into something so intense that it blows the mind. The interface where fantasy meets reality. Munches are not where BDSM is at. The wheals and marks on the skin of woodsman'sgame are the reality and it is not surprising that this is a very private world. As probably it well should be. Sensuality may well have reached it peak in the paintings of Rubens and Titian. The skin is the canvass upon which the artist paints his story. The thin models of "favorite photographs" scream boredom and fakery to me - they may have exposed their bodies but nothing "real" really happened. My wife may be 50 lbs overweight but she exudes far more sexuality than the politically correct paid fakers.

woodsman'sgame I love what you do. And all the other subs whose marked buttocks and breasts make personal photography the greatest and most real feature of this site. Keep it up!

I must concur with what has been very well stated by woodsman'sgame, e e norcod, et al.

I wish I had said this, for it is quite wise.

"Existimos en la realidad pero vivimos en la fantasia."

"We exist in reality but we live in fantasy"

"Nemo aspicit, quin ingemescat"

Thank you for all of your replies, though it is something of a stretch to believe ee.norcord when he writes that sensuality may have reached its peak with Rubens and Titian. Do they work for some diet franchise?

The above quote from Cicero is mainly for Fox as she/he did include a quote, but does have wider applications in this thread.

All are quite correct in objecting to mere superficiality, i.e., things like weight, personality, etc. However, having previously set certain standards, and I repeat, not elitist standards, it is difficult to lower those standards for the sake of some secret/cultish mis-behaviour even when motivated by perverse notions.

Oh, and the translation of that quote? Simply said, Cicero pointed out that, " No one can lay eyes on you without groaning".

I must admit, i was surprised as well by the reality of the local munch scene. Superficially, there were what seemed to me, a lot of very large folk. I'm not just saying a few pounds overweight, I mean those that probably will end up with diabetes because of their condition. Under 5'7"ft but over 350lbs if i may paint a picture. However what surprised me more than this, was the lack of connection on a social level I had with most these people, regardless of size. I'd say in a room of 60, 10 or so of them I could relate to on a social level. The rest, i'd say were just a little "out there" for various reasons, and even with D/s aside, I'd probably not find myself befriending many, even if they were my next door neighbour.
That's not to say I can't be friendly, but if most of them came up to me, with a genuine interest in starting a relationship with me on any level other than saying hello now and again, a polite "no thanx" would probably be heard.
I don't think that makes me selfish. D/s relationships are all about compatability, and as free humans, we get to dictate the rules that make up what we consider to be compatable.

bent

I find your comments to be somewhat amusing, Faibhar. You assume because you set certain “standards” to which others did not measure up, therefore it is their fault that you are gravely disappointed and disillusioned.

You say you are not elitist, nevertheless, you conduct your conversation in a very elitist tone and manner. woodsman’s game, e e norcod, and I, in responding to your stated disappointment, are first thanked, and then dismissed.

Faibhar, as others have pointed out to you, the world is populated by people large and small, thick and thin, etc. etc. I do not presume to suggest your standards may need reevaluation; I do not know you, nor are we likely ever to meet other than in this place.

That being said, and considering your words above, I do suggest that you take a very long and hard look at the world around you, and see where you fit in and how you may be judged by others. Remember what Galileo Galilei said about the solar system. Perhaps those attending the munch also had no interest in you? That is a possibility you know.

I do not speak of munches et al from experience, for my wife and I do not attend them, although we are aware of many of the players in our local BDSM scene. They too come in all shapes and sizes - some are very nice people, others are not. We simply choose to be more private than public in our sexual interests.

If you do not find what you seek in the places where you have looked, perhaps you are not looking in the right places.

Then again, perhaps what you seek is there, but you have not yet seen it...

Thank you (again) for your replies, though in Fox's case that 'thank you' seems to represent some sort of dismissal.

Speaking of which, if you have not already read the thoughts of "abient" on this very same topic please do (or, is that politeness yet one more act of dismissal? Is rudeness better?).

Fox continues to his patronizing lecture on different types and body shapes of people on this planet, something that I consistentlyagree to, and also his aversion to 'munches'.

Well, the latter seemed to be a sort of entry into the BDSM lifestyle scene. On further reflection, perhaps it is not. But don't I get at least an "E" for effort?

Anyway, before assuming the professorial role of lecturer, one should really first understand the subject and the audience...

I apologize if I have read into your comments something which was not intended.

By the way, I do not have an aversion to munches, or fetish parties, or other gatherings. I merely stated that we are quite comfortable with our own activities and friends. In our city, these events are very well attended.

I certainly do commend you for looking and attending, and indeed wish you well in your search. I merely suggest that you not be hasty in passing judgement - an error which I seem to have committed.

Mea culpa.


ps. The quote - woodsman'sgame is the source. I came across it serendipitously just before coming across this thread. A karmic coincidence?

First and foremost, no apologies needed nor necessary... If anything, "my bad". Thanx just the same to Fox for the courteous manner of his latest.

That said, alternatives that Fox and others may have found to meeting with total strangers in their pursuit of the BDSM lifestyle are to be commended, though for this rank explorer, lacking similar connections, munches did seem to be the entre to the BDSM sub group.

As for making judgments on the folk found at these munches, certainly not all were "bad". I do not recall ever making such a condemnation on these pages, but if I did, apologies again.

It's just that working up enough...whatever... to attend these events was laced with the aforementioned lifelong attraction, and frankly, from the limited munch groups attended the gene pool of attractive potential partners proved most shallow.

Hunrgy gazes in this direction aside, I may have proved the unattractive one. Who can tell? I would be the first to admit that this is certainly possible.

Anyway. A lesson has been learned. Not a "pretty" one, but a lesson nonetheless and it is that lesson that is humbly passed on to any others seeking more knowledge into the BDSM lifestyle.

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Originally posted by abitbent

I don't think that makes me selfish. D/s relationships are all about compatability, and as free humans, we get to dictate the rules that make up what we consider to be compatable.

bent

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i've never been to a munch. dont exactly know what a munch is. dont think they have munches here. but that's not the point.

it is a superficial world we live in. so we are all superficial in one sense or another, in varying degrees. there is no denying that. like in all forms of relationships, d/s or not, you'd want someone who's compatible with you as abitbent has stated.

so yes. if i think i look good. not beautiful, but moderately pretty. then settling for some terribly overweight person who's likely to get diabetes (to quote an above post) would be... well, not likely to occur. why? because i'd rather hold out, and wait, for someone more suited to come along. maybe its just me, but i wont just simply settle for something, just because there's nothing better around at the time.

i do not think i'm being elitist. i'm just being realistic. if i cant stomach the way you look, then how on earth am i going to be willing to do your bidding. i'm not saying that you have to be terribly good looking. but at the very least, you have to be average looking. and be physically in good health. i have no wish to be squashed by someone who's like double or even triple my size.

and yes. reality will definitely not measure up to fantasy. but we can try to make it go as close as it can. standards and expectations can be lowered, altered, but there's always a limit to how low it can go.

i do apologise if anyone takes offence with my earlier post. but its just my honest viewpoint.

anglestar and others say it far more succinctly than I.

FYI: "Munches" seemed to be all around the place, and that can be a double-edged sword. They do, however, offer one avenue into the BDSM lifestyle.

Think hooking up with another has something to do with Animal Attraction/Chemistry/Clicking/whatever...

Years ago, I dated a guy who was well into the 300lbs. He was the funniest, most charming man I have ever met. To be honest, had I not been friends with him, first, I can’t say that I would have dated him. Not that I am shallow, but at the age of 23, most girls don’t look much at the balding, fat types. To this day, he is one of my dearest friends.

I had been pretty self-conscious about my own weight, being 10 pounds overweight, myself. I always wondered how someone could ever love me, looking the way I did. (I know, my only excuse is youth) What I learned from that relationship is that you can never judge someone on their outside appearance. I learned that if I could love him, despite the fact that he was over weight, then, most likely, the only person who was bothered by my extra 10 pounds was me.

I understand the frustration involved when looking for a partner, especially in this lifestyle. It’s hard enough to be open about it, let alone finding someone else whom you are compatible with. Maybe you could try looking online, get to know people, before meeting them in person. As your relationship develops online and over the phone, perhaps their appearance will not seem so important.

Just my two cents

I have been to a couple of BDSM meetings back in Houston. One was purely infomative (ie: upcoming events) The other was demonstrations but there is one thing I did notice.

There were people of all shapes and sizes there. :) It takes all kinds in this world and I am glad for it because I am one of those people that isn't exactly "to die for" but there are many that do not care about that. :) Which I am very thankful for.

Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

Now, is it so wrong to not be attracted to the unattractive? And the above just addresses the physical appearance. What about the inner beauty that seems to say, I just don't care how I look or how others see me? I may be stupid and slothful, doesn't that make me a real catch?

Shallowness, superficiality, vain glory, however you wish to describe the selection of others does indicate something of yourself.

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Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

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One of the most dynamic and interesting women I know weighs well over 200 pounds, probably close to 300. She dresses beautifully, is smart, funny, and when she enters a room, is the centre of attention because she is so charismatic.

One of the most self-absorbed, cruel and manipulative women I know is a beautiful aerobics instructor, with a body to die for, financially well off, dresses in the latest fashions. When she enters a room, she too commands attention, for her appearance and self confidence. But unlike the former lady, she is no lady and that becomes quite evident in a very short period of time.

My wife is small, slender, and slowly gaining the weight that middle age brings to us all. She shines from within.

The body is merely a shell, the casing in which we all live. It is the individual, the soul if you like, who resides inside that is truly beautiful.

The sad part is, it is human nature to not take the time to look past the outer trappings. And so we miss out on some of the most exquisite pleasures and relationships.

We are animals, social creatures, and it is instinctive to seek out sexual partners for the procreation of the species. Hence the "setting of standards" - I would be hypocritical to say I don't have them for I do. My personal sexual preference is for small, slender women, and have a stated attraction to red hair. So what.

We have within us the power to forge relationships that are far beyond the simple purpose of fucking. We don't need to lower our standards. The first step is to open our eyes.

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Originally posted by Faibhar
Letting one's self go, as in allowing one's self to get...FAT indicates to others that you simply do not care about yourself, and by extension, care about others.

Now, is it so wrong to not be attracted to the unattractive? And the above just addresses the physical appearance. What about the inner beauty that seems to say, I just don't care how I look or how others see me? I may be stupid and slothful, doesn't that make me a real catch?

Shallowness, superficiality, vain glory, however you wish to describe the selection of others does indicate something of yourself.

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there you go. you've said what i wanted to say :) kinda.

its not wrong to be attracted to the unattractive. if you're ugly, or fat, or whatever, but you do take some trouble to make yourself presentable. then i see nothing strange that yes, people might find you attractive in your own right, because of who you are within.

but on the other hand, if you're ugly or fat or whatever, and you cant even be bothered to make yourself look presentable. then no. if you cant be bothered to even decently groom yourself. then i'm afraid i shant bother with you.

how you present yourself to the world outside, shows a certain amount of who you are as a person. if you cant even bother to care for yourself, then would you be able to care for others?

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That middle age brings to us all

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Speak for yourself, Fox, not for others. While Fox is to be commended for much, his generalizations on the maturation process leave much to be desired. Sure, we all get wrinkles and thinning hair, but not all of us succumb to allowing fat to just grow and hang about. Some of us do exercise to keep fit, both physically and mentally, regardless of the age.

angelstar seems to have said it best in observations noted of those that do care, and those that use age as an another excuse for slacking off.

Speaking from someone who has not even reached middle age, yet, I have to disagree. I exercise, every day. I belly dance for an hour and a half 5-6 days a week, walk about 15 miles a week, lift weights, and still, I am not as small as I was when I was 20. Age slows down your metabolism. It’s not really fair, but there comes a time that you can’t really expect to wear a size 5, any more. I really don’t see myself as fat, considering I am in better shape than anyone else I know, but I am definitely not a kid, anymore.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.

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Originally posted by Faibhar
Speak for yourself, Fox, not for others. While Fox is to be commended for much, his generalizations on the maturation process leave much to be desired. Sure, we all get wrinkles and thinning hair, but not all of us succumb to allowing fat to just grow and hang about. Some of us do exercise to keep fit, both physically and mentally, regardless of the age.

angelstar seems to have said it best in observations noted of those that do care, and those that use age as an another excuse for slacking off.

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In my head I"m 25, but I look in the mirror and I don't see 25 anymore. I try and take care of myself (I run everyday and watch what I eat.), but age has a way of thwarting one's best efforts. Having kids doesn't help much either. It wreaks havoc on a woman's body, especially having twins. Men's bodies also deteriorate but not as quickly as women's because they don't go through pregnancies.

I'm still that same person I was when I was young. I still have the same desires and needs, and I still want my lover to find me beautiful. He has to look beyond the stretched stomach and extra fat and not so firm breasts and see what is inside, otherwise I am done for.

I'm lucky. He does. He hasn't left me for a younger, slimmer woman.

I look around me and see my friends, family members, and other women whose husbands have left them or run out on them when they hit their forties looking for a woman who "takes care of herself." (Women do it to men too, of course, but not as often)

It happens too often because what is seen on the surface becomes more important than what's inside, or becomes too important and clouds the viewer's eyes.

Let me ask one question. Has anyone here ever met someone on line? Did you come to know that person well before you ever saw what he/she looked like? I have and I found by the time she or he (I've met both) sent me the picture, I didn't really care what the person looked like. Race, size, age, didn't matter. It didn't change what I felt about her/him. Later I met those people in real life and found that the initial akwardness quickly left and we were able to continue our comfortable relationship. Woodsman and I have some very dear friends that we met on line and see when we can. I don't think either of them would have caught our eye if we had seen each other on the street. ( They probably would say the same thing about us, hehe) That experience opened my eyes more than any preaching or cliches ever could. Now I truly see people quite differently and push away the initial impression immediately, looking for what's under the surface.

Faibhar, I'm not implying that you would be so shallow or heartless as to leave a partner of 20 years for someone younger and in better shape. But if looks are unimportant to a person, if he/she is open to people regardless of how they look, if his/her arousal comes from what is in the partner's heart and mind, rather than his/her body, it is less likely to happen.

Throwing looks aside completely and making them unimportant is something that can be learned. I learned it. I wish I had learned it when I was younger. I have some regrets from my youth, some lost opportunities.

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Originally posted by woodsman'sgame
Let me ask one question. Has anyone here ever met someone on line? Did you come to know that person well before you ever saw what he/she looked like?

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Yep. My wife and I met after a six month relationship online. The only picture I ever saw of her was about a week before she came to Texas to meet me and that picture was about five or six years old at the time.

And she never saw a picture of me. The only way she knew who I was in the airport was by the big neon yellow signs my other submissive, my friend and I were carrying with her name on them.

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And she never saw a picture of me. The only way she knew who I was in the airport was by the big neon yellow signs my other submissive, my friend and I were carrying with her name on them.

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Obviously what you looked like didn't matter to either of you.
'nuff said.
:)

When the lights are turned off, of primary concern is who took a shower last!

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has anyone ever met people online?

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woodsman's game queries. Most of us have, yet first encountering in person seems more preferable.

As for body types, a fixation here with ungainly fat seems appropriate, given representative BDSM lifestyles. To this comes as one unfortunate fact as solid underpinnings of sex connected with the subculture are vanquished.

And then there is the issue of fatty minds.

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when the lights are turned off

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everwilling's observation points to the convenience of not knowing, nor caring, where the light switch is.
Note that seeing with eyes wide open can also increase one's pleasure.

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Faibhar, I'm not implying that you would be so shallow or heartless as to leave a partner of 20 years for someone younger and in better shape. But if looks are unimportant to a person, if he/she is open to people regardless of how they look, if his/her arousal comes from what is in the partner's heart and mind, rather than his/her body, it is less likely to happen.

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Sorry to pick on you woodsman'sgame but this quote was perfect for my point.

Before I continue, I implore you Faibhair to please let me know if I have grossly misinterpreted the message conveyed in your posts.

I think that Faibhair deserves a rereading of his initial post. He not only discusses the unsightliness of a lot of people at these munches that he has attended, but he also discusses the mundane conversation and that many of these people do not have the personality to make up for their unattractiveness. This means that Faibhair's resistance to fat did not deter him from conversation or trying to get to know these people. He did talk to these people and must have tried to find redeeming qualities in them.

I agree that somebody who seems unattractive on the outside can be attractive on the inside and I find that I can look past the physical in some cases because mental attraction does usually lead one to some sort of physical attraction. However, there has to be an attraction from somewhere. Faibhair was not able to find attraction for the types of people at these munches physically OR mentally.

Attraction/chemistry is very important and I myself will never session with somebody if I do not feel some sort of attraction physically AND mentally for them and I don't feel that I suffer from having these standards. Passion is not present without attraction.

I have met many in this realm and there are A LOT of people whose appearance actually allude to their personalities...in a very negative way. And yes, a lot of these people were fat, but for me it wasn't the fat per se but how they took care of themselves and presented themselves (I believe this notion was also mentioned in a previous post). Most of them were the epitome of fat slobs physically AND mentally.

Yes, Faibhair may focus more on the physical than a lot of you do, but it is also doesn't seem that Faibhair is solely dependent on it. He does not advocate solely looking at the physical. I am sure that he would not be attracted to a physically beautiful person without being attracted to their mind as well. Atleast this does not seem to be the case from his posts. And it also doesn't seem that he lets unattractiveness stop him from getting to know the people at these munches. But talking to these people made him realize that it is hard to find a person in this realm who is attractive in any way. This is something that I fully understand.

Faibhair, I sympathize.