hmm...peaceful protest vs beating someone to a pulp and getting away with it?
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hmm...peaceful protest vs beating someone to a pulp and getting away with it?
Perhaps I am mistaken here, but I thought burning is actually considered to be the only properly respectful way of disposing of an old flag. If so, flag burning is not, in itself, a sign of disrepect. As Kraven so eloquently argued, it is a statement of protest against government policies which are effectively destroying the very things for which the flag stands.
Although I personally would not burn a flag in protest, I find government policies which trample the freedoms for which this country stands a far greater desecration than flag burning.
Moreover, our Constitution is something special, something to be rarely amended. Even the Equal Rights Amendment (remember the ERA?) was not seen to be important enough to justify amending the Constitution. Although we might believe flag burning is not an appropriate method of protest, it does not rise to the level of importance to justify amending the Constitution.
fantassy
Burning flags is one thing, but has anyone noticed doormats with the flag pattern on them? I think wiping your feet on the flag would be in the same category as burning it, but no one talks of a ban on doormats :(
Sorry I'm so long winded...
I shudder to contemplate the notion that burning a flag would get you killed in this country. If that really equates as a justified and logical response to someone burning a flag.. well, read no further.. we've not much to discuss and I pray I never live anywhere near where you do.
I've yet to hear one logical reason why flag burning should be banned. Everyone for the ban is talking from the point of emotion that they _feel_ the flag is to important a symbol.
Laws are, simply put, about protecting people from harm - be it physical harm, emotional harm or harm to things we own. I can see it as a bit of a stretch to say burning the flag causes emotional harm -- but surely no more harm that it would cause someone from the Religious Right to see two gay guys kissing openly in a public place. Some folks find this act just as distasteful if not more so as they feel it's an affront to god than burning a mere symbol of man... should this be illegal? You speak of morality.. do you really want morality governed by laws? I don't think you want the discussion to go down that road.. given that a great many things that folks enjoy on this site would be labeled "immoral" by the majority.. and therefore made illegal....
I don't feel that flag burning causes anyone injury or harm... at least if it's a flag I bought. If I steal a flag and burn it, well then I harmed someone else's property and theft is a crime.
As for important symbols.. what if someone burned a replica of the Constitution? Should that be banned? Surely it should.. it's just as important a symbol! What about burning a bald eagle in effigy? What about burning the president in effigy? You may dislike the man, but where's the respect for the office? What about the doormat above -- cleaning the mud off your shoes on the flag is ok? I mean after all, only a great patriot and lover of this country would want you clean your feet off on the flag! You can buy toilet paper with Bush's face on it - shouldn't that be banned? What's more offensive than wiping shit from your ass with our president's face?!
Again, simply because you find an act of dissidence distasteful.. doesn't mean you should seek to ban it.
Again, I've no desire to burn the flag.. I don't think it's anything more a desperate attempt to draw attention.. and if your cause is "right enough" you don't need to draw attention to it.
Again, read the amendments they are about protecting the people from various abuses or ensuring this or that right -- save for the 18th and 21st. Can you really read them and say protecting the flag is on the same level as the rest?
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out -- because I was not a communist..."
Heck, I'll go one further.. given the state of affairs in this country and the world in general.. is this issue really something the Senate should be debating?
I wonder how many hours of time the Sentate spent on this.. I'd like to think each and everyone one of us could name a dozen issues more worthy of their time and focus.
To be fair the number of annual flag-burning incidents increased by 33%. From 3 to 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraven
This issue is inessential, but in essence I agree with you (Kraven).
Kraven, just the record, I don't think anyone here is any where near bigoted enough to suggest that flag burning should be a capital offence. So, shudder no more.
I agree many people do have an ambivalence towards their nations' flags. Quite frankly, I find it odd.
You're right there has been no 'logical' reason given here as to why flag burning should banned. You say, " I pray I never live anywhere near where you do ", so, I’m assuming you're a theist of some kind. Even if you weren't, as an intelligent man, you must realise that there doesn't always have to be 'logical' reason behind everything in life.
And, no I don't want "morality governed by laws", and don't think anyone here does either, but I do like to see every single person's beliefs and values respected.
If I may digress…
No doubt you've hear of the notorious Fred Phelps and his band of misery makers.
New laws were introduced in the US recently that bar protesters within 300 feet of the entrance of a national cemetery and within 150 feet of a road into the cemetery. This restriction applies an hour before until an hour after a funeral. Those violating the act would face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison.
Well, you might ask, is this a necessary protection or an erosion of rights?
I feel it's neither. It's respect verses inappropriate civil conduct. I believe in the right to protest, but I also believe that the right to protest should not override civil rights of others.
Finally, (for now) I want to make one thing here crystal clear, if you want to buy a flag, take it home and throw down in your back yard, stomp on it, spit on it, burn it, or whatever, I don’t give a monkey nut's about it. But please, just have little respect for those who might find it offensive, consider them, and consider using another form of protest.
Awesome points.
I'd like to point out that flag burning would not be affecting someone physically say the way (just an example) hordes of people would be attempting to gather at a funeral that they are not directly related to (ie press/admirers/fans). I could understand a law that would help to make a funeral more private... private and easier to access because (i think) thousands of people trying to attend a funeral that they are not connected to can cause direct problems for the family when they are trying to access a friend/family member's funeral. I can't help feeling that that is another matter entirely.
When you take an object, be it flag or anything of your own property, and destroy it (because thats what you are doing, destroying your own property) it is not getting in the way of anyone else, preventing someone from doing something, or imposing anything on anyone. Its simply an act, taking a piece of property (store bought or otherwise) and destroying it for your own personal means.
We don't (or at leasted we haven't so far) amend(ed) the Constitution to force people to "have a little respect". Furthermore, I'm sure that some people in the 60's and 70's thought that burning bras in protest was "offensive". Are we to amend the Constitution to prohibit that form of protest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
It is not that I don't find flag-burning offensive, I do.
But just because I, or even "the majority", find something is offensive doesn't mean it should be outlawed. More importantly, at least to me, we don't use a nuclear weapon to kill a fly at a picnic simply because the fly bothers us. Yes, the fly will be destroyed but so will the picnic.
fantassy
Alex Bragi, go back a page.. my shuddering was in refernce to the comment by DungeonMaster6 -- which I now see I misread. These sorts of things are why I much better at lurking than posting... less mistakes!
Personal, I'd like to see the pressures of society take care of these sorts of issues -- both the flag one and the funeral one. I'd also like to see it take care of things like invasion of privacy that celebs/famous folk have to endure.
Sadly, such things sell papers.. and the public, in general, doesn't seem to care enough for there to be a meaningful backlash. Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.
[QUOTE=Kraven Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.[/QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth.
As a member of the US Military I am truely appaled everytime I see someone burn the flag. For those of you that have not seen this think about what you will read in the following.
Charles M. Province, USMC
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.
While I do not like that people will burn the flag just remember one thing, that there are those of us out there that see it as more than just a fancy piece of cloth hanging from houses schools and other buildings. It represents the country we are out there risking our lives to defend and make safe for you.
The new law has absolutely nothing to do with press, admirers or fans, or accessing funerals, and everything to do with low life Fred Phelps and his ilk. Yes, "Reverend" Fred Phelps, also know as Fred 'I hate fags' Phelps, who feels that, no matter how offensive and distasteful it may be to others, it's his 'right' to protest and at gay and military funerals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daes
Thankfully, he never was attracting huge hordes of followers at funerals. He wasn't destroying any property. He wasn't getting in the way of anyone else, or even preventing anyone from conducting a funeral. In fact, the only thing he was doing was exercising his right to freedom of expression and his right to protest.
Hasn't Fred, effectively, been forced to 'have a little respect"?Quote:
Originally Posted by fantassy
I think it's trivialising the whole issue to compare a nation's flag with a woman's bra. I reiterate, a flag is a symbol of a nation and its people, a bra is not.
There's certainly an incredible irony is that, isn't there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piecingaze
What about protecting the family's privacy?
I think that law has its place, I just.. still dont understand what banning flag burning would be protecting.
That's a fair question, Daes, so I'll do my best to tell you what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daes
Like I said, it's like many thing in life, you can do it, but maybe you just shouldn't. I feel it's a matter of respecting and protecting people's sense of what's civil and what are acceptable community standards. It has nothing to do with what's legal and everything to do with what's moral.
I've enjoyed reading the various posts/opinions here, and certainly I respect the differing points of view. I don't feel I have anything more to offer on this topic, so rather than boring you all to death with more reiterations, I think I need to agree to disagree. :)
Thank you, Daes, it's been a great thread. :)
If I am incorrect, please some one correct me, I remember a number of years back, I read that the United States Governemnt has specific speficiations for the US Flagg, it is so many inches tall, wide ect.
In addition to this, I was reminded by a scholar years ago, that unless a flag or flags or that very specific hieght, width and the exact dementions set by the US Govermnet, that any flagg that does not all withing these speicif dementions is in fact a replica or duplica copy of the actual flag.
Given this, and i neither support those who do burn the flag, nor do i critisie them, I believe if they flag(s) they are burning are the within the ecact size specifications set by the US Gornerment, then what they are burninig is in fact not the flag but rather a copy of it. What needs to be asked is, is is acrime to dystroy, burn ect a copy of the flag as oppsed to the acutaly flag itself based on dementions.
If this is true, we get critisized for burninig, the flag, but do not get crtisized, for wearing shirts that look like the flag, watch bands or as mentioned even doormats that look like the flag
So if there are specific dimentions for an official flagg to be considered an actauly flag and not a copy of it when a flagg is burned, are we burining the flag or a copy and if it is a copy then it seems to me it is not offensive
as we are doing to so to copy of the original and not the original
My other question is, if someone had a COPY of the US Consitution a copy of it, and they torn it, or shredded a COPY of it would that violate federal law, do we condem those who destroy copies or only the original.
Our Men and Woemn in uniform who have fought over the years to protect the freedoms we have and enjoy, it seems to me that one of those freedoms is freedom of speach and expression without fear of arrest or jail, if this is trun, then our people in the military who have fought and dies, have done so to protect ALL our freedoms, among which is burnnig the flag, as per the recent Supremem Court ruling
My intent is NOT to offend anyone readingthis but simply ask a question for thought and make a statement, if we have any former members of the military reading this and you are offended by my words my profound apologies for that, and my heart felt thanks for protecting our rights and freedoms over the years
There are some US Codes that govern the treatment of the flag here
This is all I could find for a definition of the us flag. It comes from US Code Title 4,3.Quote:
Originally Posted by cornell_university
Hope this helps clarify the question about what is considered a US Flag.
V/R
ID
Well at least the American flag is still just that, a symbol of America. Here in the UK both our flags (there is one for England - The cross of St George, and one for the UK - the Union Jack) were subverted to become icon of the British National Party, who are in essence thinly disguised neo-nazis. It is now becoming a concerted effort in the UK to "reclaim" the flags and remove the negative connotations.
However right now I wouldn't mind burning the Italian flag! 5-3 on penalties fer gawds sake! I'm gutted...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5163914.stm
hey, after zidanes headbutt i think france deserved to lose. shame on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious George
and if you think about it, france only scored a goal on a penalty, while italy scored cleanly. (actually twice, but one was clearly offside).
As usual there are many opinions about flag burning itself. I even read one suggestion that it was Bush/Cheney who wanted it made into a law. The question of flag burning has been around for many years. Back during the 1960's people were arrested for flag burning during the Viet Nam protests. One young man (I don't remember where) was arrested for using the flag as a patch on the seat of his pants.
The question asked was whether it should be made constitutionaly illegal. Thomas Mann once said "The government that govers best, governs least." I do not care to smoke and I really don't care if others get to smoke in public, but should it be illegal to smoke? It's an invasion of my privacy to make it illegal.:dont:
The constitution should not be changed whenever it allows something that someone just does't like.
A flag that is no longer to be used as a symbol of the country must be disposed of by burning. When someone burns it, it's no longer in the hands of someone who shouldn't have had it.
I hear you on that one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I also agree with you about the flag burning. I don't like it, but I don't think it should be a crime either.
Oh my, in mainland Britain, the national flags (NOT the Union Jack - that is 'reserved' for English patriots, Royalists and extreme right wing Nazis) cause so little offence in the main, I'm not sure anyone can be bothered burning them. Apart from maybe the Irish Republicans, and well, they have good reason. If like the UK nations and Ireland, each US state had it's own flag to be proud of there would be no need for such concerns. The Scots wear the St. Andrew's Cross (the Saltire), the Welsh wear the Dragon and the Northern Irish (Protestants), the Red Hand flag. Actually, ignore the above, while writing this down, I just realised I'm a reluctant pacifist! The Red Hand of Ulster and the Union Jack have the power to cause great anger.
I think we should stick to burning our bras *smiles*
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeseburger
Okay, I'm half French and I have to say something here. Zidane's attack was not an expression of red mist but a provoked act of instumental aggression, not hostile aggression. And how Italy love to dive - my Italian friends cannot deny this either and don't. Zinadine knew this was his last chance to shine for France yet the man thought, to hell with it, my family's respect and for my mother or a game in which we're all paid a zillion pounds a week to be rather good at this beautiful game. Zidane was a key part in making football THE beautiful game. He will NOT be remembered for that incident but for his long career as a probably the most skillful footballer in the world. For true lovers of this beautiful game anyway.
[With speakers on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r8jcaeuKPI]
Two words: Serie B
Another two: Match fixing
Last word: Italy
[Defensively brilliant but no art or attack, that is not what the game is about]
While you're wearing them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asia
I'm not aware of burning the flag being so important in other countries - as Asia says, it's nowhere near as important in Britain, no matter what the Daily Mail says.
I suppose it's that there aren't equivalent evocative symbols for other countries as that "Raising the stars and stripes in Iwo Jima" image (oo I hope it was Iwo Jima otherwise I'll feel foolish). The way that USA rallied around that flag that was rescued from the Twin Towers proved that it's a little more than just a piece of cloth. I don't think it's more important than human life... so if some zit-faced teen in some crappy college burns the flag, I don't think he should be beaten up.
(For Britain, I think the most common evocative image that touches the country is either a poppy field on the Somme... or the image of St Paul's Cathedral standing proudly during the middle of a month-long Nazi bombing campaign on London. Sad that they're both related to war, but neither involves a flag. I can see someone burning a poppy over here being as frowned upon as burning a flag over there.)
Well, I did a whole paragraph on the topic there, so I'll go back to thinking about Asia burning her bras. Yum. Maybe lighting a candle with them, and writing "down with war" on her stomach with the wax...
Sigh!
Q xx
*laughs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Qmoq
Q, that would be divine but as we've now got Martin O'Neil, can you do that while I'm watching Villa kick the rest of the Premierships ass *ahem*
~blows kiss to the cheeky and very wise Q~
Asia
xxx
Many poems and such have been written about the American flag. One of the reasons Americans find it as a source of pride is due to how the nation was developed (or perceived as developing).
Americans feel that as a nation we are a melting pot of other nations, coming together as one people. We fought for independence, for the right to govern ourselves. The flag became a source of defiance to the British crown. The nations anthem is written as a tribute to the idea that even under the insistent bombing and attacks, it still flew, never to be brought down in battle as surrender.
The flag represents American strength, American tenacity, American will power. Our devotion to the idea that all nations should have the right to govern themselves (that particular notion could be a lengthy debate and another thread).
So when you see Americans rally about the American flag in times of national sorrow, or flown at half mast. It is done to rally about the sacrifice that was given in the name of a nation, that was once just colonies, and came together, in a union of states. Motivated for a common cause.
Now to the reason someone might burn the flag (other than established disposal/retirement of a flag). When someone burns the American flag, and it doesn't matter what nationality, or nation you are in or from. When you burn the flag, it is to protest the actions of the American government, its actions. To protest the policies that are being set. Burning the flag is as much of a symbol of individuality and freedom as is the flag its self.
As far as the Iwo Jima flag raising. That was as much of a symbol of prevailing over the enemy, as much as is the rally around the flag found in the rubble of the towers. In the face of the worst losses, the flag will remain. Never to be taken down, never to be surrendered.
**This was just an opinionated rambling, the facts may be different, but the perception is still the same**
Perhaps burning a bra that looked like an American flag, while it was on Asia. Now that would be something I could enjoy watching.
V/R
ID
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDCrewDawg
Sir, we can only be opinionated if we have an opinion, I enjoy hearing what you and others have to say - every day is indeed a school day.
I'm a wee bit feared that you and Q are suggesting burning my bra while I'm wearing it though, so I've burned it after having removing it and have changed my photo AV so as to stop this scary idea from developing *breathes a sigh of relief*
Asia
xxx
Simply put, whether you believe in it or not whether you support it or not, a couple of years back, the United States Supremem Court specificly ruled that burninig the Flag IS protected by the United State Constiution as "Freedom of Speech and Freedom Of Expression"
I have no personal opnion on this, but the fact remain to this day, whether you support this or adhore this, our Highest Court in the Nation says it is legal to burn it
But there are also many other law of our land that I neither support or do not support, but theruling of the Court shows & some of the rights the we as Americans have in a Free Society
Someone my say, if this is true, why then it is illegal to shout "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre" that should be freedom of speeech/expression as well, the reason that shouting "FIRE" in a theatre is illegal has nothing to do with what was said, the Court ruled that shouting "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre could and probably would result in a riot situation to clear the theatre, for this reason shouting it is ILLEGAL, not the words used but the where it was shouted, also the nice thing about the United States is that there are forums like this were all views can be expressed without worry or concern about being arrested for expressiing ones feelings
As the add goes
Buy a PC $850.00
Seeting it up $10.00
Using and Internet Service For surfing and email $29.99 a month
Busing a new USB cable for your printer $29.99
Liviing In The United States were we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH and EXPRESSION PRICELESS
Yes. Forget flag burning, let us all just burn Asia's bra and keep our hands warm :)
Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.
I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?
Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!
The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.
The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.
The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.
The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.
The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."
The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.
The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.
The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.
The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.
The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."
After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.
There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.
Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."
MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.
FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.
IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.