How Much Should Grammar And Spelling Weight With A Review?

I've read this whole thread and guess I'm going to be in a minority here. I don't take exception when a post is written with errors, but I really get turned off when I read a story and find grammar/spelling/format mistakes that are of the kind to interrupt the flow of the tale.

I don't mean split infinitives and most dangling modifiers. I'm talking about fragments, a confusion between "then" and "than," faulty parallelism ... stuff that makes nonsense of an idea.

This isn't because I'm a snob. It's because I'm a writer and I take what I do seriously. I edit and revise and edit again whether I'm paid for the words or not. I check spelling and punctuation because I respect my reader and am flattered s/he would spend their time on my stuff. I want to make their time enjoyable and I want them to respect me and what I've written.

There are many ways to destroy credibility with the reader. One of the easiest is mechanical sloppiness. One of the easiest to avoid is mechanical sloppiness.

I have one chance to "sell" my words and ideas to the reader ... and I wouldn't show up on a sales call with my fly unzipped or in a dirty shirt. That kind of carelessness tells the "buyer" that I don't respect them. I want to flatter the reader so s/he knows that I care what s/he thinks and how s/he responds. So I check my spelling. I check my grammar. I check the formatting.

That doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes. Many slip by. But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time. I can catch them by reading paragraphs out of sequence. And I can catch them by sending them to my editor, a patient woman who goes ballistic when I do something stupid to disrupt my characters or logic. I edit hers for her, and she does mine for me.

It's the least I can do. If I only have time to do a quick draft and don't like it well enough to edit it, or don't have the time to edit it at the moment, then it goes in the files of stuff to be revised. I don't inflict it on a poor reader whose only sin has been to trust that I might have something mildly entertaining to offer.

Rabbit's pleas for editors is important. All writers, beginning or advanced or professional, need editors ... people who read and expect excellence. Those who are willing need to be taught new ways and have their errors highlighted. I know when I submit for the first time to the Library story boards I'll be grateful (though aggravated with myself) to have mistakes pointed out.

Many here have been willing to encourage new writers to keep with it and to show their efforts. I'll join in. It's important to try out the best you can do -- this is a great venue to get feedback in harmless ways. But you can make sure that people focus on your story, rather than on your mechanics, by taking care of it before you submit.

hJ

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her_Joe I have one chance to "sell" my words and ideas to the reader ... and I wouldn't show up on a sales call with my fly unzipped or in a dirty shirt. That kind of carelessness tells the "buyer" that I don't respect them. I want to flatter the reader so s/he knows that I care what s/he thinks and how s/he responds. So I check my spelling. I check my grammar. I check the formatting.

That doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes. Many slip by. But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time. I can catch them by reading paragraphs out of sequence. And I can catch them by sending them to my editor, a patient woman who goes ballistic when I do something stupid to disrupt my characters or logic. I edit hers for her, and she does mine for me.

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I guess I don't actually see myself selling my work here. I was chatting with H Dean the other day, (we know what side of this issue he is on.) I realized my question for the reader is not was it correct grammatically, it's did you get a thrill, did you cum?

Now my vanilla work is something totally different.

I just don’t find myself able to give the time to my erotica that I would to my vanilla work. I’m giving it away for free. Is it really realistic to expect me to find an editor for something I will never admit to writing? Something I will never be paid for?

When I get a free gift I expect a string attached, the string for reading free erotica might just be imperfect work.

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Originally Posted by Widget

How willing are you to overlook grammar and spelling errors if the basic plot is good and the story is otherwise engaging?

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Hmmmm... ratings are all about personal perception.
And yet, we do have tools to use to help us along the way.

The "numbers" associated with a rating are very easy to use. Yes, they are subjective and based on the opinion of the reader. I also believe they are important.

If the plot is good, the story is engaging and it isn't riddled with an error every paragraph, but has a fair amount of errors, then I might give it a 7. If the errors are a distraction, then I'll give it a lower number and suggest an editing refresh.

If an author has many common mistakes - and we all have our bad habits - then I might send a private note with some suggestions to make the story easier to read and enjoy.

There is nothing wrong with being a stickler for grammar and spelling, free site or not. That's why we have a rating system. However, there is something wrong with attacking an author versus making suggestions or offering to re-rate the story once it's refreshed.

I not want read stories writ bad and hard to figur out -
with sentences like that one.

Nor do I want to read stories that use text message type of spelling and grammar. That's a huge distraction.

I do want to read well written stories and encourage authors to do the best they can. Some of the best erotic stories I've ever read have been on this site. Those authors may not ever choose to be published, yet I'm so glad they took the time to write and share their work.

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I not want read stories writ bad and hard to figur out -
with sentences like that one.

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Ruby
I love it. Smiles

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Originally Posted by StillBehindBlueEyes

Ruby
I love it. Smiles

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Ty

I mean, "Thank you."
:rose:

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Originally Posted by StillBehindBlueEyes

I guess I don't actually see myself selling my work here. I was chatting with H Dean the other day, (we know what side of this issue he is on.) I realized my question for the reader is not was it correct grammatically, it's did you get a thrill, did you cum?.

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And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?

That's the stuff that bugs me. If the errors make me lose the mood it ain't good. That sort of thing can only come from laziness and I cannot respect that or offer encouragement, unless it is clearly due to the author writing in a language foreign to them.

Good point, H Dean,

I no get thrill when writ is distrakting from story.

Instead of coming, it gets me going, to another story, for satisfaction.

Her_Joe,

I understand your viewpoint.

Selling the reader and keeping them coming back for more is part of the thrill for me. I want my readers to be happy. If I'm writing "print and vibe" or "print and read with one hand material", then I hope its better than good for them.

Ruby

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Originally Posted by H Dean

And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?
.

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I so hate it when he's right :icon176: but I'm still not asking Mom to edit my porn. :)

I really can see the point and on my smaller works have had no complaints that I can remember. I love the idea from her_Joe

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But I've found that I can catch most of them by reading the story in reverse, one sentence at a time.

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I'm going to try that on the vanilla stuff first.
So if you read my stuff and the grammar drives you nuts forgive me. Maddie is editing it for me piece by piece and I'll post it when she's done. (Thanks again Maddie)

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Originally Posted by H Dean

And herein lies the crux of the matter. But who can cum when they have to review multiple lines in a story just to get the gist? Who can cum when the errors are so frequent that one begins looking for the mistakes?

That's the stuff that bugs me. If the errors make me lose the mood it ain't good. That sort of thing can only come from laziness and I cannot respect that or offer encouragement, unless it is clearly due to the author writing in a language foreign to them.

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I too have to agree with this, especially as I am working on a story with H Dean at the moment! I know it will be a very well edited story.

Aussiegirl

I am delighted to be of service, Sbbe! And I'm sorry I've been so slow with your story. Life has a way of getting in the way of pleasure sometimes.

I do enjoy editing and proofreading. Once things settle down a bit, I might just volunteer to do more.

To expect capital letters at the start of sentences, decent punctuation, and some grasp of paragraph stucture is all fine, and indeed should be demanded. These are basic grammatical rules that anyone trying to write should have a solid grasp of. Obvious spelling errors should also be caught easily, there isn't a decent word processor in the world that doesn't have a spell checker.

But c'mon, to get anal over a misuse of they're their or there on a free story site is just plain silly. It's nice when people always get it right, but slip ups are going to happen. Professional authors make use of profesiional editors for a reason. To expect that level of commitment from people who are writing for nothing in their spare time, on a site that's first goal is to get you horny and second goal is to tell a decent story (let's be frank, that *is* what the vast majority of the writing in the library is about, for better or worse) is almost off the charts funny to me.

Thanks, sbbe. I think you and I, and H. Dean, and Ruby, and Aussiegirl are pretty much in agreement actually. But what really pleases me is to see so many folk are actually willing to spend some passion on the issue.

I understand that most of us who write for pay (as often as possible, right? lol) spend extra effort to make certain that everything we submit is "just so" because a paycheck might be in the offing ... but writers who read and post to a thread like this one also have standards. And that doesn't mean necessarily stuffy.

I've kept a sentence as an extreme example of what offends me from a story I once tried to read (not here!) that said: "After I camd in her fac i still wanted fuckd her." (I read a few more sentences to see if it was an inept try at dialect. It wasn't.)

It is my opinion that, while someone is free to torture the language like that in the privacy of their own home, the exhibitionism of semi-literate drivel should result in the revocation of their poetic license and death by computer virus.

hJ

"After I camd in her fac i still wanted fuckd her."

Now that stuff, I won't read. Or try to read. English deserves better.

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

But c'mon, to get anal over a misuse of they're their or there on a free story site is just plain silly. It's nice when people always get it right, but slip ups are going to happen. Professional authors make use of profesiional editors for a reason. To expect that level of commitment from people who are writing for nothing in their spare time, on a site that's first goal is to get you horny and second goal is to tell a decent story (let's be frank, that *is* what the vast majority of the writing in the library is about, for better or worse) is almost off the charts funny to me.

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Sorry, Timberwolf. Your post slipped in while I was writing my last -- I certainly agree with you in principle ... it's not about minor errors, is it? Yet, I could easily disagree with your example ... I would notice a screw up in homonyms like their/they're/there (though I readily admit many folk wouldn't), or than/then, or to/two/too, and lots of other examples.

At the same time, I surely wouldn't lower my appreciation (or scoring) of a story just because the author misses an occasional word or two.

The question here has become:

if you want the reader aroused, if you want them to cum while they read your very horny porn, then do you really want them to be distracted by a slip up you can easily catch?

Another suggestion then, since sbbe liked the one about reading backwards -- if you know you typically goof up a specific homonym or usage, it doesn't take very long, does it, to run a search/replace for the word and decide if you've used it correctly? (I have to do that for several words I can never recall how to spell -- "achievement" is one, "judgment" is another -- did I get them right? lol)

The point is, if you write a lot, you know your weak spots ... not hard nor time-consuming to look for them.

hJ

"The point is, if you write a lot, you know your weak spots ... not hard nor time-consuming to look for them. "

I agree with this actually, which is why I try and avoid using its or it's, and insted just go with "it is", in my case that's one of my personal trip-ups I try and avoid.

If you know you've got a problem, try and work around it. Makes sense, though it can take time for it to dawn on you.

The principle of the thing is good. Or is that the principal...

Sorry if I'm out of line, but I just HAVE to put in my two cents...

I am a bit OCD when it comes to spelling, language and grammar. Yes, the stories are free, but I just cannot stand to read anything that has grammatical errors...it drives me insane! Oh, and don't MOST word processing programs have spell check?

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Originally Posted by His Slut

Sorry if I'm out of line, but I just HAVE to put in my two cents...

I am a bit OCD when it comes to spelling, language and grammar. Yes, the stories are free, but I just cannot stand to read anything that has grammatical errors...it drives me insane! Oh, and don't MOST word processing programs have spell check?

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But they don't do grammar? That takes experience and learning that some of us didn't get in the loverly public school systems.
Sorry, couldn't help it. Damn that soap box just calls to me.

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Originally Posted by StillBehindBlueEyes

But they don't do grammar? That takes experience and learning that some of us didn't get in the loverly public school systems.
Sorry, couldn't help it. Damn that soap box just calls to me.

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Again, forgive me if I'm out of line, but mine does...:rolleyes:

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

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Originally Posted by maddie

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

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Way to mess with the newb, shoe-girl. You can't possibly know how badly it hurt me to read that...*whimper*

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Originally Posted by maddie

Spell checks and grammar checks are notoriously unreliable. Ewe can spell a grate deal of words wrong and have them sale threw a spell check, you no.

Grammar checks are useful, but limited. They're great if you're trying to avoid passive sentences, but I've found them to be rather useless otherwise.

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Love it Maddie! :wave: I've gone back over manuscripts and caught these type of errors with one of my favorite vanilla editing tools. Is having it read back to my by my computer. You do have to be careful not to let the monotone voice lull you to sleep, but I find I can catch those types of errors with it.

Most editions of Microsoft Word have a grammar check as well as a spell check. However quite frankly in my experience, the grammar check is an unreliable and near-useless piece of garbage (at least half the time actually making your sentences *less* correct than they were, or changing the meaning entirely), and I've long since turned it off semi-permanently.

The newer version of Microsoft Word have a better grammar program. Also if you go into options, then spelling & grammar, grammar settings; you can adjust the grammar settings to your liking. Don't forget that word is a business program.

its still better to use word or another program to do spell checks and grammar checks than not to use anything at all. However nothing replaces careful reading and editing and an objective eye of a friend willing to do it is invaluable.

I still remember being in a hurry and using the spell checker on a document and I changed what should have read "Message from the Director" to "Massage from the Director" in it. Fortunately it got caught before being printed and it became a bit of a running joke for awhile. hehe

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...

I agree any spell check and grammar is better than nothing. The program recongnizes the word as correct. It does not mean that it is the correct one to use

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Originally Posted by His Slut

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...

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HAHAHA i do hope everyone had a sense of humor too funny.

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Originally Posted by His Slut

I had a similar "oops" once. I was the International Wholesale Director for a local HD shop years ago. As I'm sure many of you know, a word commonly used in closing a correspondence is Regards. Well, in my haste to get things done, I accidentally typed Retards...spell check didn't catch it...

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I hope that it was not the reason why you left the business.

Well I am happy to say that three of our better writers contacted me about Writer's block --One could not commit the time ----one is thinking about it and I am proud to say Aussiegirl ---is now one of the instructors ----

Writing as someone who is not involved with the writers section of forums, other than the odd post in Slothlands I would like to add my penny's worth to this debate.

I was fortunate enough to receive formal teaching in English grammar whilst at school, although I will willing acknowledge the evidence of that is sometimes somewhat lacking. With that background I find that incorrect grammar does at times niggle me, and sometimes make me smile when it changes the meaning of a phrase or sentence.

Story writing is surely a creative process, words and grammar used, and indeed sometimes deliberately miss-used to create an imaginary reality in the reader’s mind. Without this creative process there would be nothing, other than perhaps in the case of stories published on this site, a how-to manual on sexual practices.

If the author also happens to have the skills to check his or her own work, either using a word processor or raw brain power, that is perfect. But where that is not the case, why not try and pair up those with creative writing skills and those with analytical proof reading skills to form a perfect partnership.

Regardless of the author’s experience at the creative side of the process, please do not de-motivate them by criticism of their grammar or spelling. Don’t present them with the problem, but with a suggested solution.

Formatting; well that is another skill again. Something I care passionately about, and like Tojo, I will also reformat a poorly formatted, but good article before reading it. But again, please do not expect a good writer to also be good at formatting. When it comes to font and background colours, this is often a personal preference, and can easily be changed.

One of the most commented on recently posted non-erotic poems, Hero – Zero, was posted by Master Rob. That poem, which was created in his heart, was gently edited by a friend before being made public. Those who know him well know that Rob types a unique version of English known as Robesse. If he had let this prevent him from posting those of us who have read his poem would be the poorer in spirit and wisdom.

cariad

(Post checked and approved by MS Word)