Question about Psychology of BDSM (with apologies)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moral-man

However, when it comes to the point that your whole life evolves around your sexual fanatsies (i.e. the stage when partners start to introduce one another other as master and pet and sleep in each others cages) then I'd say that you have reached a stage of perversion

---

And in response to fantassy - hey guys, we all have our limits. moral-man, I happen to agree with your limits, but I don't feel I have the right to describe people who take things further than me as being perverse: that is, assuming that perverse is taken to be a negative thing, and something that you feel is 'wrong'. Other people who don't do what I do would describe me as perverse, and I don't think I am! so I have to respect that just because something exceeds my limits, I do not have the right to criticise it in others. I do have the right to say that it makes me feel bad and I don't like the idea for me, of course.

Hope that makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moral-man

However, when it comes to the point that your whole life evolves around your sexual fanatsies (i.e. the stage when partners start to introduce one another other as master and pet and sleep in each others cages) then I'd say that you have reached a stage of perversion and thats just not healthy. Nietsche might not agree, but then maybe there is a reason why he had a mental break down.

---

So what hobbies and life interests do you think are ok? Or healthy? In your humble opinion? No, really. I'd like to know. While your at it could you fill me in on the purpose of life. I had it written down just now but I seem to have lost the note.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moptop

And in response to fantassy - hey guys, we all have our limits. moral-man, I happen to agree with your limits, but I don't feel I have the right to describe people who take things further than me as being perverse: that is, assuming that perverse is taken to be a negative thing, and something that you feel is 'wrong'. Other people who don't do what I do would describe me as perverse, and I don't think I am! so I have to respect that just because something exceeds my limits, I do not have the right to criticise it in others. I do have the right to say that it makes me feel bad and I don't like the idea for me, of course.

Hope that makes sense.

---

You make perfect sense

But please don't get me wrong, when I say perverse all I'm implying is that that living such a life deviates severely from social and communal behaviour patterns which are seen as normal and favourable in our society. Although you understanably assumed so, I am not making a moral judgement and I don't wish to criticise.

however, I am concerned about the dangers that such a lifesyles may have to the individuals that follow them. I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy.

In regards to Tom's rquest, I am afraid I have no definate answer for what the purpose of life is. I suppose each person may has its individual purpose and responsbilities. Nevertheless, I believe that our sexual urges can influence our way of thinking and can make us act contrary to what we believe or know is right. For that reason I don't think that we could possibly find the meaning in our lives by mindlessly obeying to them and for that reaosn I Personally think that sexual fanatsies are something we should act out with our partners in our bedrooms, and not in our socal life.

But well, that's just my point of view

moral-man's comments are interesting.. I have two things to say about them and then will consider my own thoughts on why I might be submissive.

1. I think moral-man is close to the truth - dictionary-definition-wise at least - regarding what makes something a perversion. I believe (could be wrong) that clinically, sexual fetishes are considered 'perversions' if they become the ONLY way in which someone can get sexual pleasure/satisfaction.

2. Having said that, I think it is off the mark to suggest that people who very much live out a dom/sub lifestyle are taking their sexual activities out of the bedroom in an unhealthy way. I don't think it is even unusual. After all, why do couples get together? Because they are sexually attracted and want to fuck one another. Isn't it taking that out of the bedroom when they move in together, buy furnishings, go to the cinema... they are living out a life entwined socially, basically because they wanted to be lovers.

3. I am generally baffled as to my own submissiveness. I wasn't abused. I have never been in a big, powerful job giving orders all day and therefore hankering to give up power for a change. I do seem to have an aversion to making decisions in general life at times... but since I have had submissive fantasies from a very young age, I can't really link it to adult personality traits that I have developed. Perhaps it's something to do with parents (who were very liberal), heave only knows....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moral-man

In regards to Tom's rquest, I am afraid I have no definate answer for what the purpose of life is. I suppose each person may has its individual purpose and responsbilities. Nevertheless, I believe that our sexual urges can influence our way of thinking and can make us act contrary to what we believe or know is right. For that reason I don't think that we could possibly find the meaning in our lives by mindlessly obeying to them and for that reaosn I Personally think that sexual fanatsies are something we should act out with our partners in our bedrooms, and not in our socal life.

---

Who gives this purpose to our lives? Our self or something else? It's relevant because it answers how you reached your conclusion.

Haven't you ever wondered about why it's just that rule-breaking that makes us horny? Doing the forbidden. We're basically just another type of monkey, (primate) and no other monkeys in nature have rules about what kind of sex is acceptable, (Bonobos fuck anything and everybody at any time and in any way). If we take a look at nature, having any rules at all regarding sex, besides consuality is perverse. We are the most perverse animal on the planet, and we on this forum, the so called perverts are following our urges more than any other humans making us, in my humble opinion the least perverted, (ie in conflict with natures design). But then again we're part of nature so I guess anything we do is actually natural and non-perverse, so never mind that.

My point is that there is no right and wrong. All the rules about what is are social constructs most often with very superficial use. Humans aparently love having rules to follow, or we wouldn't have any. And we also love breaking our own rules.

A perfect example was the explosion of Arab music samples in US hip-hop after 9-11. I'm not saying hip-hop is evil or perverse. Islam is in the Western mind forbidden today so it becomes extra exciting no matter how much we try to deny it, (We tend to connect Arabs with Islam even though most muslims aren't Arab). And the records have aparently been selling, so the tactic works.

Following your desires, ie doing things that make you happy I couldn't possibly see anything wrong with. Giving in to lust I wouldn't say is mindlessly following anything. It's denying lust which is mindlessly following the social constructs that any thinking person should see through. Just because most people don't, doesn't make it good, natural, right or non-perverse.

When it comes to sex I don't think any of us are free from the rules that where hammered in at an early age. Either we mindlesly follow them, or we purposefully break them. But free, non of us are.

I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy.

~ Hi MM.
I've always been submissive, but never realized it until I found a dominant man who took the time to educate me. I don't choose to be a slave (*I'm a sub for now, who knows I might be a slave later*) merely due to my sexual urges. I choose to be submissive because I feel that it's my nature. I enjoy pleasing my man, making him the heartbeat of my life, giving him control. I do have respect for myself because I understand that this is a lifestyle choice for me, and I don't have a need to follow society's norms if I choose not to. That is having a lot of respect for one's personal beliefs and choices isn't it? Also, my man/dom is very, very respectful of me. He still has to make the hard choices, but because he respects me, I respect him. It always is a two way street, just with an understanding of the power-relationship. I've been with regular men who don't understand submissive women and because I didn't understand my own nature and needs, I found myself in bad r/ships, VERY unhealthy. So, to me, the bdsm lifestyle works for my personality, needs, and desires - not just sexually, but overall. It's healthy for me and to me, that's all that really matters. :)

"I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy."

If you truly consider this highlighted section to be factual information, you need to quite seriously re-evaluate your knowledge of what we do.

Respect is everything. It is the very core of what this is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

"I just can't see how a person that dedicates his or her life to beeing a slave to another person (and merely due to his or her sexual urges) could have a fulfilled and loving life. How could this person ever develop respect for his/herself if his/her very partner delights in not showing any. For this and other reaosns I would call a intensive sadomasochistic lifestyle unhealthy."

If you truly consider this highlighted section to be factual information, you need to quite seriously re-evaluate your knowledge of what we do.

Respect is everything. It is the very core of what this is.

---

I also reacted very strongly to that. I make a point of being extremly loving to my slaves. I feel it becomes so much more important in this lifestyle than in vanilla. I take care of my slave, on every level. On every level. I think that's the most important core of a D/s relationship. And my slave in turn takes care of me, in her way. Just as you describe the dominant man you are seeing.

I choose to be submissive because I feel that it's my nature. I enjoy pleasing my man, making him the heartbeat of my life, giving him control. I do have respect for myself because I understand that this is a lifestyle choice for me, and I don't have a need to follow society's norms if I choose not to. That is having a lot of respect for one's personal beliefs and choices isn't it?

I can so very much identify with this. To me this might be the core of all human relations or even beyond that, relations with the entire world and all that is in it. The magic word to me is and always will be respect. Any set of rules, moral codes, laws, can never be anything but artificial, man-made and so, will always be compromises, made to fit entire societies, often with hidden agenda's built in. But societies are made up of individuals, of which not even two are alike. To me personally, even trying to universally impose sets of rules upon living creatures is fundamentally unnatural. To me, we as humans are basically the same as other animals. Nobody needs to tell an animal which is the Alfa-male or female, they just are, or establish themselves as such. So I think trying to figure out why you are a sub or a master/mistress, is no use at all, you just are.
Please be aware, that this is nothing but my own personal opinion, which I feel very strongly about, no doubt, but not meant to offence anyone. Just my humble contribution to a very interesting discussion.

Oops,

The first part of my post was meant to be a Quote from Sub17's post. Must have done something wrong, sorry about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mumei

I'm starting this thread to open up discussion of theories of the psychology and psychological origin of this kind of thing. Is it just that "there are different kind of people in the world?" Or are there particular kinds of events or childhoods or whatever that are particularly likely to produce a, shall we say, "BDSM friendly" sort of person? Are there particular personality types drawn to BDSM activities?

---

Is BDSM born or made LOL

Sorry I'm not making a funny at the questions that's just the first thing that came to mind, the nature/nurture debate. LOL

Firstly I always had BDSM fantasys, before I knew anything about how things worked and pre sexual as you stated. I never saw them as wrong I think until I took on board societies judgements of 'normal' and 'acceptable' and then I began to question.

As for; are there things in life that make you more BDSM friendly, I believe that everything in life affects your outlook and responses to it. At the risk of going off on a Freudian rant I am one of those subs who has a trauma in her past (don't we all as people not just subs) but then I don't think the truma led me to the lifestyle it has however had some interesting impacts on what I want within it and caused some soul searching.

So my mother was a battered wife, femanist who I loved dearly. I wanted to be a Daddy's girl but my dad was not an emotional bloke unless you count teary apologies for black eyes. Now you can have a field day with the psychology of that (I have) and still come to the conclusion that that isn't why I'm a sub, that is why I'm me. As a sub that is the reason why some of my hard limits are very trivial (poking pointing fingers at chest etc)
It is the reason that I could cry when my Dom tells me that he is proud of me (but I do that anyway to everyone else who says that) Because Daddy never said he was proud. It may be why I am eager to please because anyone who has been in that sort of environemt knows that the eggshells are easier to walk on when you are complient.

I had a lot of issues to face which were two fold 1)How my mother would cringe at my 'giving up my power' and letting a man dominate me after women burned their bra's for rights (misunderstanding of the sub role but hey it's funny) but the biggest was 2) the dealing with the fact that I was asking for a man to hurt me - that is a big head fuc* when you live in a fearful childhood.

A can't remember who posted earlier about herself being a sub in the bedroom and otherwise being the strong, independant maybe a touch superior woman - That is me also. The only psychological exlaination I can come up with for why I want to be submissive is this; I had a disabled sister and I had a lot of responsibility as a child, I was always 'the strong one' who could cope and was fine to be left on her own. I held others up and supported my mother emotionally. I have difficulty letting go and not worrying about others, somebody taking control and bondage give me no choice but to allow that to happen.

Is there a personality type for BDSM, I think so, strong, open people who are happy and comfortable with themselves and willing to explore who they are and how they feel. BDSM is not an easy road to travel it takes strength both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tainted Angel

..
Is there a personality type for BDSM, I think so, strong, open people who are happy and comfortable with themselves and willing to explore who they are and how they feel. BDSM is not an easy road to travel it takes strength both sides.

---

exactly.. anyone with less probably won't be able to handle it from either side with out ongoing problems. sighs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tainted Angel

A can't remember who posted earlier about herself being a sub in the bedroom and otherwise being the strong, independant maybe a touch superior woman - That is me also. The only psychological exlaination I can come up with for why I want to be submissive is this; I had a disabled sister and I had a lot of responsibility as a child, I was always 'the strong one' who could cope and was fine to be left on her own. I held others up and supported my mother emotionally. I have difficulty letting go and not worrying about others, somebody taking control and bondage give me no choice but to allow that to happen.

---

This is so me it is frightening. Except it wasn't a sibling who was disabled, but my mother herself.

I discuss it a little more, and how it relates to my submission here:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=37

Here's a thought. could it be that the one thing all BDSM practitioners have in common is that we question obvious truths around us and that we aren't afraid to question our own roles and sexuality. It being like a floodgate. Once you start poking at the "hard limits" and they break, BDSM is where it all ends up.

Traumas and powerful emotional events might be the things that push us over the edge, and help us to start to question everything vanilla people take for granted. Whether it leads us to BDSM or extreme sports is another matter. It's all about being more alive, is it not?

I'm just throwing it out there, and not making any claims.

I love this thread.

What a fascinating thread! I don't feel I can add anything to it at this point, but I will definitely be coming back to read any new posts and re-read the previous ones again and again.

Thanks all for your thoughts! :)