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Logic, thank you! You found just fine! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic1
Oh yes, that! Oh moptop, THAT is what I've been trying to say to myself and couldn't even get it thought like I wanted. Your praise for everyone else's responses must indeed be heaped on your most insightful reply as well. ~hugs~Quote:
Originally Posted by moptop
:wave:
moptop - I second tessa's comment. You've summed up exactly how so many of us feel. Thanks so much!
I third it! It's exactly what I couldn't say either.
:o :o :o Oh! and there was me thinking that everyone else had managed to say what I couldn't say! Well... it's nice to know we're not alone, isn't it, ladies?
And as I think about it a little more (damn that thinking), I see it as normal and right and part of the joint journey, that we should have this slow bending to their will and desire, this slow giving away of ourselves. As I feel the joy and relief of finally being able to let go of something - however small - I imagine that he feels a joy and pride in being allowed to take it. A series of small triumphs for each. If it all happened at once - well, it would be boring, wouldn't it?
Well said, moptop. Very true.
Uh-oh... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Logic1
I've been thinking a lot in the last few weeks about how I define submission for myself (again) and have had some really intense conversations with a good friend (hi :wave: ) who's on the same wavelength. So I bumped this thread back up because I remember it being so full of wisdom and information and affirmation...and it is.
Barely submissive? Maybe the difference is just opportunity, chemistry, like minds... As has been stated in other threads, by both dominants and submissives, we can only submit to the extent that they dominate - they can only dominate to the extent that we submit. A very, very vital, fluid relationship. And we really do depend on each other deeply to realize the fullest extent of our dominance or submission. More than I realized even a month ago.
I guess I'll just never stop learning,
jeanne
I am always in awe when it is all said exactly as it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by his_j
I hope none of us ever do, for the learning is the journey.Quote:
I guess I'll just never stop learning,
:wave:
Oh, I'm so glad you bumped this thread, his_j! Because I gained a moment of insight this morning, when talking to another French dom (i.e. not mine, but known to us both). I'll have to paraphrase the beginning, to save translating the whole conversation, lol.
Me - I'd like to be able to react like that, I mean - and to stay, I don't know, conscious - in control - to be able to react and not simply be led by the emotions of the moment.
Him - I think it is not only about emotions, it works sometimes through a true uncoupling (or disengagement) from reality. A total abandonment takes place
Me - Yes... I don't know if I manage that either - maybe sometimes - certainly, one leaves to one side the constraints of logic
Him - You talk that way, no doubt, because you are not very advanced on this path of submission, but it will come. Perhaps you still wish to retain a certain control over the other
Me - Over the other... No, over myself, I think, above all
Him - Certainly, but that implies domination of the other
Me - Oh!
Me - I'm going to have to think about that
Him - lol - yes, think about it carefully. Because the swing happens at precisely this point
I hope the translation works so that you can see - and appreciate - the moment that made me go 'Oh!'. I'd just never thought of it that way.
Hi tessa,Quote:
Originally Posted by tessa
that's a difficult, quite philosophical question. I'm not sure if, with that constraint called life we all carry with us, something like "total submission" is really possible without a total loss of oneself. Submitting totally would mean loosing all those moments filled with excitement, fear and sweaty hands along with the joy, satisfaction and gratefulness afterwards of having been led (and having let myself be led) to overcome my limitations. I wouldn't want to loose that.
Sexual submission is a lot like mountain climbing. After the first excitement you find yourself really tasked, often insecure about the next steps. If you look up at your target, you don't think you can make it, but you keep on climbing because you know that there's a big reward waiting for you. Even if you hurt and are exhausted, you will yourself onwards, sometimes with bare millimeters of grip left for your aching fingers. And somehow you make it to the peak and experience a freedom only few others know, and you ride it as long as you can.
But, inevitably, you have to climb down again and face your usual life, and you mourn for the feeling of having reached the peak. But, luckily, there's always a higher mountain - tough more tasking, but with a higher peak.
Just an update here....I asked my dom if he thought I was still barely submissive or more like almost. He said that he thinks a fair argument could be made for me not being in the barely submissive category.
WOO HOO HOO!!!!!! Progress!!!!! I'm not hopeless after all. :p
Me too! Wow! Never, ever considered it quite in that way. Wow. But thanks to you, moptop, now I can. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by moptop
Hi there, DarkPoet. :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPoet
This as well- never considered it from this vantage point. I will now, however, that's for sure. And I will learn much because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPoet
Ok, first... ~moans~ And secondly, this is a wonderful way of describing the journey. I'm very able to see this in an entirely new light thanks to your words.Quote:
Sexual submission is a lot like mountain climbing. After the first excitement you find yourself really tasked, often insecure about the next steps. If you look up at your target, you don't think you can make it, but you keep on climbing because you know that there's a big reward waiting for you. Even if you hurt and are exhausted, you will yourself onwards, sometimes with bare millimeters of grip left for your aching fingers. And somehow you make it to the peak and experience a freedom only few others know, and you ride it as long as you can.
You never were hopeless, sweetie. Not ever. ~hugs~Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaming-Redhead
:wave:
Before I met my now master and husband, I was in a relationship with an abusive, insecure, control freak asshole person.
That man changed my attitude toward new people (not only lovers! in general!) from "I think you are a nice person until you prove me the opposite" to "I think you are an asshole until you prove me the opposite... and mind, youŽll have to try VERY hard".
It takes time to learn to trust again. By little steps. Then you see the new man does not take advantage of the weakness you bared, and you are more brave next time. Again - it takes time. And a person who is willing to take you as you are. Not a person who is just seeking a brainless, spineless toy.
Mind, the toy-seekers are the ones who call me "not really devote", or "pretty big-mouthed for a sub".
It is a kind of test. If you call yourself a male Dom, and are scared by me, or let me push you into an uncontrolled state of mind, you are a weakling and a coward and therefore not worth my time and love.
Those toy-seekers will never be able to even begin to imagine what I am like toward my real master. And tell you what? I am VERY glad about that fact!
Kind regards
Arria
And if my hubby ever gets tired of me, I will apply to Sir Russell.
Or to GreyJack, as he makes me laugh so often.
:-)
sound like the kingdom farfaraway :) I'm still not tired of you and toys makes only fun for a weekend or a night, not for a relationship.
Aw. *blush* *melt* DonŽt be so nice to me or else I have to be extra-nice to you the next 10 times!!!! *wink*
:-)))
This idea of yours, delia, is one of the reasons why I posed the question in the first place. Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by delia
tessa :wave:
Quote:
Originally Posted by delia
Do you ENJOY submission? Does your arrangement work for you? If it does, then who cares what anyone calls it. Maybe you feel submissive only on certain days in certain ways in certain places. Are you only a 1/3 submissive? Hell no. You are a submissive who lives in reality.
It took me a long time to realize that there was no definitive guideline as to how submissive I was supposed to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by tessa
There is the other side of the coin however.
Maybe I just don't fully understand it yet, but when there is no one on the receiving end to appreciatate your submissiveness then it just seems futile.
How can you understand and feel submissive when the other person will not respond.
It's hard to continue on as if things are normal, and try to maintain whatever you can out of it.
I have tried, but in the end I feel useless, betrayed and inadequate
I don't particularly care if I meet someone else's criteria for submissiveness, but I struggle with knowing that deep down I want to be able to give in totally to someone else and feeling as if I'm holding myself back out of fear. That's the real issue, I think, for me. I'm not trying to live up to some set in stone ideal that says I have to be this way or that way. I think if I was it would be easier than trying to live up to my own perfectionist ideology.Quote:
Originally Posted by tessa
I've been there and done that. I had a Christian marriage counselor tell me that I needed to come under my husband's wing. My frustration was that there was NO wing to come under! Talk about betrayal....left standing in the open all by yourself. That's all water under the bridge, though. It didn't work out. I now have a wing to come under, so to speak, and found myself darting under only to run back out again. lol I think I've finally made some progress in the trust department...trusting myself and trusting him. This is what I've been waiting for! When he responds to my efforts to please him, my heart soars.Quote:
Originally Posted by cadence
I guess I should have visited here more often. First Flaming-Redhead trying to be who you aren't is very hard and trying, some times life only offers us one path and no choices. You got to that point and thankfully you did what you had to do. I only wish I was graced to guide you through this life and growth.
Second Arria I am very proud of your remrk but I do hope that you continue on with your loving Dom and never have to go through a breakup you don't want.
jeanne I don't think anyone could have said it better, you summed up submission, let the Dom decide what is perfect, course the Dom must know you well and value you beyond anything else in his life. Then his perfect will be what you both want and need.
My only request of a sub/slave that is etched in stone is that she shows me the respect that I have earned, nothing more nothing less. That keeps me on my toes knowing that I must earn the respect each day. I have just gone through a couple of months with morgan disrespecting often and deeply, mostly through her own self doubt and negativity. Hardly respectful to call the man / Dom you claim to love a liar, thief, and other things on a daily basis with little or no basis for it. I have all ways shown her respect till just lately and now I do not dare to let love or respect for her grow again for the same reasons that Flaming-Redhead took 10 years to figure out.
Sir_Russell, thank you for reminding me of that statement, as I have been struggling lately with fear of not being perfect. By my definition, not his.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
Seems reasonable to me.Quote:
My only request of a sub/slave that is etched in stone is that she shows me the respect that I have earned, nothing more nothing less.
BTW - can I get in the "just in case" line too? :)
delia, thanks for your thoughtful response. Having spent only a small amount of time with him and staring an upcoming extended rendevous in the face, I find that nerves are overtaking my senses - to my own detriment. It's good to be reminded that he chose me for a reason. :)
jeanne I am honored and certainly but again remember why you offered your gift to him and take steps not to turn into a morgan. Remember that it is all about 3 words, Respect, Honor, and Pride. Have them for yourself and him and he will have them for you and himself.
Any relationship in my opinion lacking any of these three is doomed.
delia your right in that attitude and it shows that you understand those words too. Simple words that mean more then anything else in the world
Quote:
Originally Posted by delia
These words are what I needed to hear today, soothing raw nerves. I feel like I just got a nice, reassuring hug. Thank you both. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
And that's the end of my little panic attack,
jeanne
delia is very right in her advice.
I am leaving a relationship that with a woman that I loved because she has a trust issue that I am no longer willing to deal with. Trust is part of both honor and respect and to love someone without that is impossible.
The heart of D/s or M/s is about knowing that the other person means more to you then your own wellbeing.
Awwwwww I'm very sad to hear that! I know that for me I can love someone without trusting them completely. Don't ask....I'm totally fucked up. Anyway, I won't meddle in your business or tell you to stay because I don't know the details. However, I have trust issues which I'm still trying to overcome, and it has taken my dom 6 months to get to the point where he doesn't see me as "barely" submissive. For months and months, I've resisted and been contrary at every turn, and he's tried everything to bring me under control. First month, it was telling me he was disappointed. Next month, it was lectures about disrespect. Then, the next month, he let his anger show and cut me to pieces with his words. Lastly, he withheld from me any attempt at dominance and pretty much ignored me. The last one gave me plenty to time to think about everything he said. It was a terrible time. I'm still surprised that he didn't leave. The last couple of months, I've been a good girl. I'm desperately trying to prove that I want this and can do this. He's noticed, but I can tell he's still a bit wary....which kinda hurts....but I brought it on myself. Not giving up on me means a lot, though, because abandonment is a huge fear of mine, even though I kinda bring it about. I know....I'm fucked up! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Russell
I'm not sure where I was going with this, exactly. You seem like a very intelligent dom who knows his business. I'm just sorry that morgan can't seem to find the will to swallow her fear and just go for it, especially after all you've done for her. The guilt would eat me alive.
WE have been together for almost 3 years and I have done all of that and more, before her move here we were good together she had put most of that aside. Now that I am here it is very different and back to the begining or worse.
I don't do this without a lot of personal pain and deep regret that I am not capable of overcoming the problems
I'm sorry about your pain, Sir. Wish I could be more helpful. I'm still figuring out how submissive I am myself, and appreciate all of your time and friendship very much.
On another track, though, I just found this particular thread the other day, and have been thinking about the basic premise here. The fact is, some people MAY just be 'barely submissive' and have different needs from someone who is extremely submissive. In ANY characteristic in ANY group of humans the only thing one can count on is that there are going to be differences between them and a RANGE of differences from very strong to barely there. For example, consider homosexuality; it's fairly easy to see that there are extremely hetero as well as extremely homosexual people in the world as well as a full range between the two of varying degrees of bisexuality. Why not consider that Dominance and submission characteristics can be the same? Some ARE barely submissive and would be a bad fit with a completely dominant personality. Just like in vanilla relationships, there are characteristics that are a bad fit and might not work over the long run and some that fit together extremely well.
I hope I've not spoken out of turn, since I am not only not sure of how submissive I am myself - I'm really just starting to discover and explore that in my own life, but new to the forums. It is also true that people can change and grow - kinda sad if they don't in life. I agree totally with Sir_Russell that in ANY relationship the parties need to communicate and respect each other, in order to grow together. 'nuff said.
First, one can't speak out of turn here... especially if offering an opinion. Every perspective teaches us all.
And of course, all human activity falls on a continuum. There are no absolutes although we, as human beings, often try to create boundaries and differentiation with out definitions.
Now as to 'barely' submissive, I would contend that some feel just a little submissive until they meet the right dominant. When you get chemistry, sparks fly and your submission may well overwhelm you.
Likewise, a somewhat dominant personality may blossom into a full bored uber-dom (pardon the hyperbole) with the right submissive in his "clutches".
Thank you for your coments OZ, I've been 'lurking' on the site for a bit and I have read some of your comments before and respect your opinions.
Thanks for commenting on the continuum idea (THAT was the word that was escaping me when I wrote that earlier section. Sheesh) That was exactly what I was trying to get across. It just seemed that upon reading this thread that a lot of people were saying 'all or nothing'.
Wedjat,
Most of us that are experienced in the life try to preach that it is different for each person and couple. There aren't any rules about how you must be in this life only personal guidelines and goals.
What I think you are hearing is a lot of submissive doubting themselves, I call it subbie disease, and most of the best ones do. None of us are perfect but the difference here is that the best of all of us strive to be the Best we can be to improve ourselves.
I agree you may never get to be the submissive that will please the very hard core Dom but I know that you can please most of the Doms if you decide it is for you.
I appreciate the sentiment. Thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedjat
Sir, I'm not thinking about most Doms. : )
lol, well I am not hardcore at all, I love life and the Life believe it is best when shared with someone that also knows who she is.
Thank you, Sir. I'd like to think that at my age I at least have SOME idea who I am : ) Finding out new things, and trying new things should always be part of life, though, I believe. I'd imagine you have some ideas along those lines. : )
Wedjat, how would you know if your truly submissive now. Have you really experienced its joys and the rewards your Dom can give you? Have you developed the trust for that Dom that allows you the freedom to release control? Has anyone made you feel compelled to kneel at his feat and wait to see how you can please him.
Till you have these you will not know if you really are. When you know that bringing him a smile or making him know the joy of you is really what you live for and at that time your sub will know it is real.
Thanks again,Sir. No I haven't, to answer your questions, but you've got me thinking about it, and THAT's new for me, as you know. I do like making you smile already : )
I am growing quite fond of you Wedjat of course you already knew that. We all start our journeys being novices. I do enjoy the training of a newbee sort of like finding a virgin. If she is willing and wants what I offer great. The rewards then are worth the effort and work.
Training means different things to different people to me it means that we have reached the first stages. When I train reward is about 90% of it and 10% punishment that is real and meant to make it a choice of become better or leave. Learning how to please me is only a small part of that training, it includes how to show respect, how to get what you want and need from and stay submissive, how to find pleasure and joy in being mine. There is plenty more but it also varies based on who the sub is at heart.
Fond of you too, Sir : ) A lot of that sounds good, but so hard to tell from a distance. One part I'm not sure about is where you said " how to get what you want and need from and stay submissive". I'm not sure what I might want and need from it. Still trying to figure that out myself. *sigh* Wish I could tell you more. Talk soon, I hope.