yes but awww shucks is quite non-amorous don't you agree? Now back to your knees ! And get that head down!
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yes but awww shucks is quite non-amorous don't you agree? Now back to your knees ! And get that head down!
Ah! Thank you, Sir! Of course, Sir, I should have known I was misinterpreting it. :pray:Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
Well, maybe I should stop this hijack and answer your question.
As previously noted, I am the jealous type. This is because I am insecure. I would be hurt by that kiss, but I would want to know about it. Is it cheating? Technically yes, but I have never been one to see anything as black and white. Those shades of gray would make me consider motivation and intent and the trust I have in my partner.
Your response to this topic makes the most sense to me, and my overall experience with Poly. Thank you!
Honest Open Communication is Truly the key to helping Poly work. At the same time isn't that true of any Style of Relationship?
Making and Keeping Agreements and setting Relationship Bounderies also faciltates the success of Poly. Like you mention Delia "Clear definition of Roles".
Though some of the concerns expressed by some other(s) here are certainly valid ones as well ime.
Time Management for instance is a bigger issue in Poly Relating, because there are more PPL involved. And every one wants and needs quality Time with their Partner(s). One can even become what is termed in the Poly Community as > Poly Saturated, IE have Too Many Partner(s) to fullfill the Relationship needs of. Which is not a good thing.
Taking on a Partner none of one's other Partner(s) likes or Trusts is also a pretty destructive thing to do.
Also Poly is a generic Term for Multi-Partner Relating. PPL in the Poly Community have as many definitions of What Poly is to them, as there are PPL nearly. One will have the best success in Poly, Choosing other(s) who have the same or similar definitions for themselves. Choosing a Relationship with someone who is seeking a 2ndry Partner, when you yourself are seeking a Primary Partnership, likely won't work out well in the longrun for anyone. Nor vice versa. And again like you mention Delia "Clear Definiton of Roles*.
Like any other Style of Relating, do PPL Choose Relationship(s) with other(s) that don't want the same or similar things from that Relationship? If they do How Smart is that? ummmm
I also note that many PPL in the Monogamous Mainstream of Society tend to think in the direction that Poly PPL simply have not found their "Right One" yet. How Many times in my Life have I heard this statement? I can't count them. The Truth of the matter is that they have found the *Right One*, just that they've found more than one of them, and each on different Levels. Each and every Relationship is different, like each and every person is.
Another key to making Poly work well is the ability to first of all Choose Partner(s) that will mesh well Together, and Trust and Respect eachother, as well as the Relationship Agreements and Bounderies of each Relationship. This facilitates Love and Trust with everyone involved.
As for me, my pre-existing Relationship(s) take precedence, and do set the standard for what I may or may not have to offer the next person. But that is me.
Respectfully~SidheWolf
Very well said Sidhewolf. Well said indeed.
First to say > I like Your GrandMothers saying. It rings so True to me. And it makes Honest and Good sense <soft smiles>.
Nextly on the questions; I would have to say this> You and Your Partner(s) Know eachother, and what Your Agreements in, and expectations of, that relationship are. So You likely Know where Your Morality is, whether or not You violated anything (likely before You did so if You are Real Honest about this), whether or not a secret is a violation, or whether what You do will hurt Your Partner. If You make Agreements and set Bounderies with someone and then break them You Know that.
A Real Kicker to me in these things is PPL who make Agreements and set Bounderies for their Relationship(s) with their Partner(s), and then just break the Spirit of those Agreements and Bounderies. IE tell lies of ommission, look for loopholes (like attorney's do). Seemingly keeping the Agreements and Bounderies, when they Really Aren't, ya know?
Respectfully~SidheWolf
MastersGem I Agree with some of what you write here. It's Very True we are All People First. With feelings, thoughts, and Needs, no matter what Role we have or place we take in this Community. And I Loved your <gag and bleck> about unrealistic certain conditions that do currently exsist in many BDSM/Poly Style Relationship's <G>. True that a persons Dominant is at the forefront of a Submissive or Slaves mind and Heart, but that doesn't remove who a person IS.
Dominants everywhere are Learning more and more every day about this, and how to build Happy successfull Poly Households. There are success stories out there, and successfull BDSM/Poly Intentional Families I know. The ones who have been successfull for a loooong time already Learned and Grew through what most of the BDSM Communities Dominants are just beginning to *get* over the last several years. Which is in part, that this Style of Loving is Consensual. If Your Submissives or Slaves are unhappy and unfullfilled in their purpose of their Relationship with You, You will not be happy either. The Consent can become withdrawn. The happy Poly Home You plan will not happen, because You did not consider and support in action the ones in Your charge.
BDSM is a Power Exchange. One cannot Give Power they don't have. Just something to think about I think, and consider well.....
Respectfully~SidheWolf
I do think there are people out there who are legitimately polyamorous, have the best of intentions, and work hard to make their relationships work.
I also think there are many more people who slap the label "poly" on themselves as an excuse to cheat on their spouse, or become a slave collector.
You can't fix your first relationship by adding a second. If there is something seriously lacking in your primary relationship that you just can't live without, then it is time to find a new primary. Adding a slutty little slave on the side isn't going to make you any happier with your wife.
Poly relationships can work when you have the right individuals.
I've attempted a poly relationship, I flew up to meet them back in march. He was a sensual dominant named David and Tracy was a 'mommy' domina who loved to be pampered/
I was very happy and loved by both of them, in fact, things were going so well that we were planning a live in situation and they were going to get a larger house to accomodate me. They were awesome people. though it did fall out for reasons I dont really feel like getting into. We're still on good terms, and if a similar situation were to arise and I was single, I would love to do it again.
Its all very situational. My friend Mike wanted me to be a sister sub to his current submissive and it drove me up the wall. I said no. She drives me insane. He's one of my really good friends, and I can handle either her OR him, I Like her when hes not around, but when theyre together it makes me want to puke. So when we all tried playing together I get bored, annoyed, then irritated. It just would not have worked in the least. So I stopped playing with the two of them. He somehow thinks this is because I'm straight. Ha. I've decided to let this go rather than create an argument that could risk our friendship, its that much of an issue with me.
You have to learn what works for you. With a couple, you Have to take the pair, no one or the other. I'm a jealous girl that craves attention and affection - I know this and can foresee a situation where my jealousy would become an issue.
I'm not attracted to submissive females, but I loved having a Domme while it lasted. I miss her very much. Ive also realized that serving With other subs leaves me disinterested, which is why having a Dominant couple over a Dom/sub one works very well with me, I can spend my time serving one or the other, and as the 'pet' of the two, I become a very happy girl =)
Its certainly not for everyone, you have to know yourself, be Honest with yourself, have an idea of what youre getting into.
I think this is a Great Assessment Lily. And it rings very true to my experience in both the Poly and BDSM Communities.
The Point of Polyamory IS to have more than 1 Loving Intimate Relationship in ones Life, on an Open, Honest, level. Too many People either don't get, or ignore this factor. If there are secrets, lies, deceit, involved, it's Cheating. If it's Cheating, it's Not Polyamory!
Many who come into these Communities labeling themselves Poly, are seeking Sex Only Only Type connections. Which is also Not what Poly is about. And Which are desires that can be met in the Swinging Community. I think part of the problem, or mis-take in this, is that those labeling themselves Poly, are perhaps confused, or are a form of Community predator. And the label of Poly confuses the people they come into contact with.
If the pre-existing Relationship(s) are not Healthy, other Relationship(s) cannot be added with any reasonable expectation of success. One cannot (as you say) add another to fix what is broken or not working. Poly doesn't work that way, at all.
True Poly is an extension of Healthy, Happy, Loving, Open, Honest, Relationship(s). Not people looking for a bandaid so to speak.
One can put their thumb in a leaking hole in the dam, but how long will that last? Eventually it becomes a destructive flood that'll wipe out everything in it's path. My advice is > Don't be there!
There are (as you say) People who are Truly Polyamorus, who operate in their Relationship(s) with Honest, Open, Loving, intentions. One of the easiest ways to assess if this is what you have found (if you are seeking a Poly Style Relationship) is to be in direct Communication with all of the People involved in the pre-existing Relationship(s) Openly. And take your time getting to know them. As well as giving them all time to get to know you. If there are secrets and lies Anywhere, or vast differences in their communications to you, you haven't found what you are seeking.
In the BDSM Community there are many so called Poly Dominants seeking to add more Submissives, or Slaves. Assuming this is Their Right, and irregardless of the feelings, fears, thoughts, needs, or Agreements they have, with the ones they have. And without correcting that situation First. These do not make for a positive situation for those seeking a Loving Poly Home, or Relationship(s).
People in this Community are Learning and Growing more every day across the board in regards to what Poly is and what it isn't.
My experience in Poly is that people (like any other Style of Relationship) #1) need to Choose other(s) with the same or similar definitions of what they are each seeking for and in a Partner. Not just settle for whomever may be willing to connect with them. Keeping in mind people are Who and What they are. You cannot just take any person who becomes available, and hope to Change them later. #2) Work within the negotiated Bounderies and Agreements they already have to attain what they wish for in order to extend what they have built to someone else.
The Wise and Experienced Poly Dominants I know Never Choose other(s) that don't mesh with Their wishes to begin with. And They never add, or try to add, Anyone that won't mesh with what they have already established. These want and Will Have a Happy, Peacefull, continueum in Their HouseHolds, and in Their Lives. Something that cannot be attained without having done the work and being Responsible. This is easily seen in Their Homes, and Their other Relationship(s).
Respectfully~SidheWolf
Poly is wounderful for those who choose it, when it's dumped upon you it just isn't that much fun! I don't care what lifestyle you choose accountability to the hearts of those you claim to love and care about is the true measure of character.
i was actually discussing something similar with my mother a while ago, and i liked the way she put it:
In other cultures, what we choose to call primitive [which is so not true necessarily], men had different wives/women/partners not only for their own pleasure but also for the comfort of the women. Each wife/woman/partner was in charge of a specific duty. Today a wife has to be a good mother, a good spouse, good at her job, social, take care of herself and be pretty, have food ready for the family and so on and so forth and all that with a smile on her face.
I've met a Family in poly, they love each other, they care for each other and they respect each other, which i find acceptable in every way. I am not saying i could deal with it--i don't know, but i doubt that i could. I need and want to be special to my Dominant, if i feel that i cannot satisfy his needs i'll just break down--but in no way would i be judgemental of a poly relationship. After all, i'm pretty sure we know of many people cheating on their partners--at least in this case, it's consensual and all needs are met.
but that's just me :x
I understand the sentiment, but why do you set the standard that 'special' to him means you and you alone? Should children feel less special if they have siblings?
And please, not the standard "that's different" argument. Unless you can explain how it's different. Because I don't see it.
Sorry Oz, you know I adore you but I'm gonna' fling the bullshit flag out onto the field on this one. I'm groovy with poly when it does indeed work for all parties involved, I've said as much prior in the thread. It's all about what you can handle and not biting off more than you can chew. However, a parent to child relationship and a sibling to sibling relationship is not the same dynamic as romantic and sexual love between adults. A parent raising a child is mentoring a growing person with a developing intellect into a young adult who will one day be outed from the nest and expected to exist on their own. As parents, part of the job description is to make the little snot nosed DNA copies function apart from us. As romantic partners (key word there being "partner") the goal is the opposite: we're trying to figure out how to function with each other.
A parent, I would hope, would indeed love their child/ren for life. I would hope a parent would not choose obvious favorites. My parents had three of us, loved us all and cared for us all and their pride and love is clear in their eyes when they look at each one of us. However, it is nothing compared to the depth that exists when they look at each other and, in their case, only each other. After nearly 33 years of marriage they are still so enthralled with each other that there is simply no more room for anyone else.
Perhaps poly is a workable life choice, but it does require a particular degree of openness. And a finely tuned consideration by and for all parties involved.
And yes - love for children is different from love for lovers. It's not easily explainable, it just is.
Amber, at least you are trying to meet my 'explain it' request.
I'll have to absorb it and think on it a bit. But in the meantime... I still see the capacity in us, humanity, to infinite love within us.
I don't think that's the case at all. It is, of course, tempting to fall back on that easy response, but it's facile. I'm going to think a moment - will attempt an explanation. Perhaps it will make sense, perhaps not.
Only you know the answer to that. Each of us finds what works for us, and makes our own peace with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
Love for children vs. love for lovers.
When I try to come up with what the difference is, it's hard to think rationally about it. It's just one of those things that I accept as true without questioning why. So here's my attempt at 'why'.
Love is made up of a lot of different elements. There's need, desire, protectiveness, generosity, selfishness and selflessness. I know there's more - and I'm sure ya'll will tell me - those are just the ones that occur to me now.
Feeling love for a child is accepting the eventual change in the relationship, the eventual loss of the intensity of the bond that is formed at birth (or when that child becomes a member of your family). That is a component of that kind of love. It is fraught with responsibility and fear, accompanied by myriad intangible rewards. The big reward is raising them and seeing them become happy, functioning adults, who loosen their bond with you voluntarily.
Love for a lover though...rather than accepting the eventual loss of the bond as part of the process, as part of how you love, we want that bond to last and grow stronger. And we expect, when we say "I love you" to another, for the bond to strengthen. Often this does translate into monogamy. It depends on the person. And when we say those words to another, it is often a way to feel special. And when we hear them, we believe that we are. "Hey", we think, "this person, who I love, also loves me! I trust that they will care for my heart, as I will try to care for theirs, and treasure my love." It doesn't mean that we can't also love others, though.
Love for our children is strong, almost indestructible. Romantic love, when wholehearted, can be fragile. I personally hate that it is, at least for me, but it is.
I fear I didn't do a good job answering the question...oh well.
OK look this whole line of loving your kids or both mom and dad or sister Sue and cousin Mike is about to make be heave. As human beings, unless we have some serious wiring flaws, we are all capable of loving more than one person. But give me a break here, the poly life style is about having sex with more that one person…guilt free. Now PLASE don’t get me wrong, if that’s your thing and you can make it work with all the people you are being intimate with MORE POWER TO YOU. But to compare a lifestyle choice to loving friendships or familial relationships is missing the point of the thread, and in all likelihood justifying your choices cast onto another person who at some level doesn't feel the same way.
It all depends on the individuals and thier preceptions involved.
When one goes "poly" say for a fling like a play party or gangbang situation, or an owner is shareing his girl with another, its certianly different from the other type of "poly" relationship............. where a two way street turns into an busy intersection.
I just reread this entire thread with an eye towards the fact that I'm genuinely working on finding a comfortable 'level' of poly for me. Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences and feelings here...I know how difficult it can be, particularly when your own ideas are contrary to the 'accepted norm'.
:wave:
it does work for some people, firstly because all of this in love stuff...well i have to ask, what is it really? most people will say they have been ''in love'' and ''have loved'' more than once and with each new partner will say they have never before loved anyone like they love them etc etc , that to me is because everyone cares about and likes admires etc each individual they become close to in totally different ways ..so why cant you love more than one person at a time?
what causes the problems with poly r/ships is nothing to do with love or lack of it but just plain jealousy imo
at a fetish fair we went to last year we met a family.
in all there were 7 members each with their own place in the household and they'd had been together for some 20+yrs they were all extremely happy and each were equally of value, however i think thats fairly unique.
i said 7 members but you might want to (yet strangely they didnt) include the married ''cat'' who came to visit once every week or so for a little 10 minute petting on someones lap lol
Me and my husband have talked about this alot as well.
"Each wife/woman/partner was in charge of a specific duty. Today a wife has to be a good mother, a good spouse, good at her job, social, take care of herself and be pretty, have food ready for the family and so on and so forth and all that with a smile on her face."
Not to mention that in a monogamous relationship you have to be their lover, mother, nurse, friend, team mate, therapist, coach. In short when your only two you do lean VERY hard on the other person. Me and my husband after many years of marriage have agreed that our love has indeed grown for each other and is stronger but still cannot be the end all be all fulfillment of everything we need. Its not possible.
Now I have a husband and a Dom. I love them both. However because of the commitment if hubby said no dom I would. Earlier in my life I could have never imagined getting to this point. But Im glad I did. The 3 of us are much happier!!
That being said. Being honest and transparent. Doing alot of planning and negotiating is very important. Communicating and sticking to our agreements is VERY important. I hope the situation lasts a long time. This is my first time. Im ok if it doesn't though because right now were all happy and getting our needs met.
This doesn't really apply to everyone. Like many (although definitely not all) bisexual people, I really need to be with both men and women. By that definition, my relationship with my husband is "seriously lacking in something that I just can't live without," because he doesn't have a vagina *and* a penis. I don't think that means it's time to choose a new primary. :p
You must have a strong relationship and go very slow...my wife and I have messed with it...mostly just going to adult clubs and watching others so far.
As long as everyone involved is 100% honest, it can work very well. You are correct that your H doesn't have a females' body, so by finding a female partner that he is not threatened by would be your best choice. It can be done, but again I must stress that there can be no lies or deceptions...otherwise you are just cheating/sleeping around.
Poly also works for those whose primary partner is vanilla and you are looking for someone to explore your kink side. It doesn't mean you love your primary any less, you are just looking to add another piece that is not there.
I have found that I have grown closer to my spouse throughout these experiences. I have learned more about her in ways I could not bring out. However, by allowing her to explore certain desires with another partner, I have been able to modify how I treat her.
Our sessions are more passionate and her submission is deeper then it has ever been.
This does not work for everyone, but for those that it does...:blurp_ani
I've reread this whole thread...again...
This struck a chord with me. To go into a relationship with one who is a self-proclaimed poly person with an eye towards "he'll pick me in the end" is just setting oneself up for failure. You turn a relationship into a test. It is a really icky way to go about conducting a relationship - having a hidden agenda.
Yes. This is definitely something that makes me sad too. We are all, by the nature of our BDSM needs, considered abnormal by 'society'. And supporting each other in our own personal choices is something I think we owe each other. And no, that does not mean that if Joe Blow states his desire to 'do' 12-year-old girls that we must support it. There is a line between personal choice and doing harm to others, particularly those who do not have the ability to consent, whether because of age or mental maturity and intelligence. But for consenting, thinking adults...yes. It truly is their business to decide how they want to live and also their business to determine how to get their needs met without harming others.
That's very true. Understanding is a bit much to ask, when we choose such different paths. It would be nice though if there were a little more acceptance.
Yes. I do find that this is a truth for me.
Yes. I think we all have a very human need to feel special, in a 'romantic' way, to someone. And that need almost seems, from my own experience anyway, to be magnified for submissives. I'm working my way around to separating that need from emotions like jealousy and envy and insecurity and fear.
God, yes. I did it for almost 24 years...and I'm worn out. I don't WANT to be anyone's 'everything' ever again. And I have no intention of putting another person in that position for me. For two reasons: a) because of what I just said - it wears them out and b) because I don't think any one person can meet all my needs anyway. Why set them and myself up for failure like that? Especially if I claim to love them?
Exactly. My hope is that it will work for me, because I think it is the happiest way for me to live.
-----------------------------------
A good friend has loaned me a book - "Opening Up" by Tristan Taormino. It has a lot of information and definitions of terms and first-person narratives and hands-on advice for how to talk about poly and work out agreements and deal with emotions. I'm finding it very useful and recommend it highly for any who are interested in exploring this lifestyle in an emotionally honest way.
I believe you can love many people.
I also believe it takes very special and rare people to be in love with more than one person - and have that work with all in the relationship.
But I certainly believe you can love more than one and have a relationship, a long and lasting one at that. There are societies that do it everyday, and even in the beginnings of the USA we had the Native American's that would marry with multiple wives or take a wife (and children) of a brother that had fallen in battle or died.
If that isn't the most selfless love on Earth I don't know what is.
Since this thread has been bumped, I too have gone back and reread a good portion of it. Three pages worth of discussion, many useful points and points of view. It seems to me, however, that it still boils down to figuring out what works for you and expressing that honestly. Be with a partner or partners that you trust as honest when they tell you what works for them, as well.
Not to sound old and cranky here, but nothing gives me a bigger headache than people that tell their partner a lie about how they feel because they think it's what the partner wants to hear and then they get all upset because the partner acts on what s/he has been told. "Oh, you're poly? Yeah, I'm totally okay with that. Not jealous in the least little bit. What?? You Dommed another sub! Now I'm pissed!"
Alternately, when told something by a significant other, it's helpful to believe it as opposed to translating it into what you think they "really mean" and being mad at them when you realize that what they said was what they meant all along.
Now, I'm not talking about when people change their minds, that happens and it can't be helped. I just prefer that all parties are kept abreast of the evolutionary thought process.
Poly or monogamous, nothing can be healthy without honest communication.
Poly relationships seem to work well in a great many cultures. Could this be that there is a shortage of men? Was it because it took a single woman much longer to give birth, then it did for man to plant the seed? Meaning, it was a way to populate the world, which there is definitely not a need for any longer. lol
When I love, there is no room in my heart for anyone else. And when someone claims to love me, I expect their heart will be full as well. I want 100% devotion. If I can't have it, I won't give it. So, if someone tells me they're Poly, that's fine with me, but don't expect me to get involved with you.
Whilst I'm resorting to the tried and true, (a bit old-fashioned, I know) the wedding vows state, "forsaking all others." All others!
My brain is muttled after reading all the posts relative to this subject so, I might be repeating what someone already stated. Love between a "couple" is much different than that of children, mother/father, siblings, friends. Afterall, it is with no other that you share such intimacy.
Yes if you mean christian (?judeo-christian?) wedding vows... but we wrote ours and excluded this and similarly aligned monogamous concepts. Do you also hold 100% to the obedience clause? One that only applies to the wife?
Well, that's the point of the discussion. Can't use it as a dispositive fact.Quote:
My brain is muttled after reading all the posts relative to this subject so, I might be repeating what someone already stated. Love between a "couple" is much different than that of children, mother/father, siblings, friends. Afterall, it is with no other that you share such intimacy.
You're absolutely right, Oz. I am reciting that of the Christian vows. I suppose people can write whatever they want to meet their needs. However, I did hold to the obedience clause. My husband would no doubt, if he were still alive, attest to that. *mournful sighs*
Well, I'm using it because I'm not referring to the love between more than one intimate partner, but as an example of those we love with whom we do not have such intimacy. As I see it, that's a very different kind of love.
- This is a great book! We have read it many times and passed out copies. Went to her book reading here and she was a very down to earth person. She also has a web site: http://www.puckerup.com/
Also another good web site to go to is http://xeromag.com/fvpoly.html
Pretty easy to read.
Differences and in commons in these things *to me* are these; The In Commons I believe and experience to be > Long Term Committed Love. Another in common component can be the depth of that Love. And the Responsibility that entails. Love for Lovers has a component most don't have in common with say Love for Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Children, and that is that capacity for a sexually intimate Relationship, and other factors that such a Relationship may entail. Which is typically not a component of Bio Family Love. And yet still, Loving someone differently does not mean Loving less. It's really hard to compare apples to oranges, even though they are both fruit.
Respectfully~SidheWolf
It really just takes the openess to Love and it's potential and possibilities, as far as being able to Love more then one Partner. Actually creating working Multi-Partner Relationship(s) takes work, effort, commitment, excellent Honest open communication skills, and great Time Management skills also.
On the Native American practices re; Family> yes. I am the child of such a child. My GrandFather (on Fathers side) Fathered a child (My Father) for his deceased brother. And then passed unexpectedly himself (from a logging accident). My GrandMother (who was leaving the Reservation after the death of my GrandFather with their children) was asked by my Fathers Mother to take and raise her child as well....which she did.
Ironically years later, my Father and his 1/2 Brother were both in Love with the same woman (my Mother). My Father won her, and I was conceived. They were to be Married when he returned from the navy. Then my Father passed before making it Home when I was 3 weeks old. His half Brother (my Dad) Married my Mother, and raised me as his own :)
Respectfully~SidheWolf