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Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
*perk* :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
*perk* :D
Just human nature and your dom was right, just don't let it bother you.Quote:
Originally Posted by badlyguidedlittlemis
It could be worse... there will come a time that all your acquaintances will start to brag on how much medication they take, how many hospital visits they've had, and all the operations they've endured.
People like to play one-up and if the lifestyle is the most important thing in their life... well, like I said... it could be worse. LOL
I think I disagree. My experience is it's the other way around... but that may be because you see a different side of the street than I do... I guess it's all in the perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonlitsub
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and two, some women just think thats what men want so they will be that to be more appealing I really don't get it.
That's the ultimate definition, imo, of bi-curious. Not willing to admit it but definitely curious enough to do it if they can claim they were (or actually are) drunk enough to not remember.Quote:
I have met quite a few guys though that if you get them drunk enough so that there inhabition go they actually will suck a little bit or what not.
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Originally Posted by Flaming_Redhead
LMAO Red... I just want to say "Let the games begin!!"
(great post)
Ahhh, performance art! :icon176:Quote:
I, myself, enjoy a little naughty flirting among friends now and then, but I don't consider myself bi or even bi-curious. Curious about what?! I've experimented. I'm completely hetero. I would never dream of running away from Daddy to be with a woman or suggest that he bring another woman into the relationship, but if he ever wants me to perform with one, I won't refuse.
Interesting topic eh?
Certainly got my attention. :hubba:
i agree, i have run into several "bisexuals" that are willing to say so just to get the attention. but are they really bi?
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Originally Posted by DowntownAmber
As a submissive, one of my favorite things is being co-Dommed by two people -- I guess everybody likes being the center of attention. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I think its several things, I part of it is being adventurous and wanting to seem willing to be sexually open and into experimentation, the "nobody likes a prude in bed" thing i guess, and also women want attention, to appear desirable, sexy and flirtatious and what better way to do that than to be willing to fulfill one the biggest male fantasies ever?
Also i think societally speaking, we're way more open about our sexuality and whatnot so people are willing to discuss it, but after a while it begins to become a big competition and I don't play those games. Wastes time, emotions and energy and those are saved for my Owner :)
I am bi- but I was bi before it was cool...lol and I'm not the "i just want to have sex with a girl" bi, I'm the 'I dated a girl for two years and was madly in love with her,' type of bi lol. Would I have sex with a girl now? If my Owner wanted me too, but I believe that there should be a relationship before you have sex, but I'd gladly enjoy it for him :)
I hate to be the Debbie Downer here, but "why is it cool to be bi" and the language some of us are using to talk about this -- "claiming" to be bisexual, "flaunting," "so-called," -- is exhibiting the kind of mistrust for sexual minorities that I've heard from the moral majority my whole life. As a sexually submissive bisexual woman, I just want to make sure this thread has a little bit of comfort for bisexual women who have also been on the receiving end of such mistrust for their sexuality. Hell, I know you're not talking to /me/ because I'm not in your scene, nor do I run around kissing women for pretend funsies. But I can't helped but feel that old familiar feeling because this kind of conversation happens all the time and I can never do anything but squirm because it's hard to articulate why it makes me feel so uncomfortable.
I live in a mostly queer world, among young, over-educated queer men and women who think of themselves as being more liberal in that holistic lifestyle way, not just politics. But I've gotten just as much bullshit from them about my sexuality as I have from people who aren't part of my community -- and it looks as though I'm seeing a little bit of that here. I'm not trying to say some women don't want to ramp up their bi-ness because it makes them seem more alluring. Bisexual women are, in fact, pretty damn alluring so it would make sense, and it would make sense that you would observe this and find something amiss. I think a good question to ask, besides asking "are they even really bi?" is why is it somehow more warranted to call into question a bi girl's sexuality than a heterosexual man who flaunts how many women he's been with, or a lesbian who talks about getting laid a lot? Do we wonder if all promiscuous gay men are just thinking about cock because it makes them seem more attractive to other men, or cooler, or more alluring? Here's something most people can agree with: being "out" about your sexuality, unless you're a straight vanilla male (and even then, who knows?), is hard. Full stop. It takes courage and a lot of balls and I think a good common goal would be fostering a community of respect around this. I've been on the receiving end of all of that craziness -- I'll call it mistrust or skepticism -- concerning my sexuality, including "bi-town on the way to gayville" (which goes doubly for men; no one, het or homo, believes in the bisexual male, which is fucking annoying).
That's the thing, some people don't believe we even exist. And the idea that we might exist, but can't possibly exist in such numbers seems, to me, to be just an extension of that. My journey to accepting my bisexuality (it seemed easier for me to call myself a lesbian for a while) has made it as much a part of my political identity as my sexual one. There is no need, in a world as fucked up and hedonistic as ours, and in communities filled with sexual deviants like mine, for little bi boys and girls to go around feeling like they can't quite fit in. And I'm not saying it's not okay to be frustrated with the girls in your scene, I'm just saying, this is really only adding to the atmosphere that fucks with bisexual/queer/whathaveyou identity and development. It may seem like, goddamn those bisekshuals are takin' over the world! But at the end of the day I'm still getting threats for people to "rape me straight" and it's a felony to have sex with who I want to have sex with in my state. It may seem like it's cool to be bi, but it certainly ain't easy.
We are human, we like sex. And especially for people into "the scene," we're preoccupied enough with sex that we seek it out in specialized ways. So why shouldn't we talk about who and how and why we fuck, same-sexed or otherwise?
I hope this wasn't too long or needlessly defensive. I just wanted to put another voice out there.
Wow, so I just read some really great responses on the second page to this thread and now feel as though my response seems a little more serious than it needs to be.. I promise that I've had fun or laughed before in my life! I'm just like the Queer Hulk, only instead of green, I sense heteronormativity, turn a brilliant shade of rainbow, and RAAAAGE. <blush>
I wouldn't worry about it. I know exactly how you feel- as a bi guy I'm often excluded from the gay community, and in my experience the broader queer community as well. I don't know what it's like for everyone else, but certainly with my experiences say, with the university queer groups, whilst female bi or curious people were excepted, as the only male bisexual in the group I was marginalised and mocked during my entire time with them. (I think not being a latte lefty didn't help, either...) Then again, I was also scorned for being openly kinky- we have the least fun queers ever -sigh-.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
But you're right to an extent, P-pages (do you mind if I call you that? too late if not.) that in taking bisexuals as a subject in the discussion it could make some of us feel relegated to the role of a curiosity or quirk. I know that wasn't the intent, though. It is frustrating to find yourself in that situation in your general life.
What's it like for bi girls? Do lesbians or straight people not trust you either? Do you find people discriminate against you, in either the queer or hetero community? I'm just curious, I guess.
pervertedpages: I actually looked at this from entirely the opposite angle - that, frankly, it's annoying and hurtful when people "claim" to be bi to ramp up their allure because THAT is an insult to the folks that actually are. It's like throwing leather on and claiming to be a Dom or getting spanked once in awhile and claiming to be sub. Sure, being kinky may turn some heads but does it make you part of The Lifestyle a lot of us cherish? When people raise an eyebrow at the false Doms and subs out there I guess I don't feel threatened so much as glad they're paying attention. Am I missing the boat here?
I've had a problem with queer student groups too, WyldWyl. Ours, however, has weekly topics and when the local BDSM group comes in for demonstrations, it's always the biggest meeting of the year (that, and "the bisexual meeting," wherein everyone gets drunk beforehand and screams at each other because every year there's one person, without fail, who manages to squeak out 'I just don't see how someone could like pussy AND dick,' before he vomits).
I'm sorry that you experienced what you did among the gay community, and I've definitely seen first hand just how dismissive and mocking people are towards men who identify as bisexual. And it's true that half the gay men I know today came out as bi first, so that whenever any man says they're bisexual, they all roll their eyes in that "been there, done that," way. It's strange that we're part of a community that is on the forefront of academic theory and always spouts all of these inclusive terminologies (LGBT or queer over homosexual, the ideas of sexuality as a spectrum, genderqueer/genderfucking) but somehow it's just as exclusionary and orthodox as the shit we work so hard to undermine.
I find that bisexual girls who want to be "taken seriously" by the queer orthodoxy (lol at stupid terms I'm coining) around here just try to play down the "sex" part of their sexuality. They say things like "I love people, not plumbing" or try to play up that they are open-minded rather than sexually attracted to both men and women. And that's totally cool, and being wide open is a great way to live your life. And I did it, too, but eventually I realized that no, it's not that I'm just floating around all ethereal and equal-opportunity. I want to fuck women, and I want to fuck men (women moreso, and I have not had very much experience with men, but that doesn't mean that I don't actually have dirty, nasty thoughts about them too). And sometimes I want to fuck trans men or women, but have not wanted to fuck a genderfluid person so describing myself as pansexual just seems like a lie, though a rather enticing lie. Point being, I think many bi girls who are serious/active in the community try to find other terms to describe themselves. And maybe it's that they don't want a label, but I suspect it's because deep down we don't want THAT label; we don't want to inherit a label that's so loaded and feels somehow less valid. Bisexual-identified me tried for so long to make friends with this inner circle of beautiful, sapphic lesbianity but was only admitted once I had a girlfriend and stopped correcting people when they called me a lesbian (even now, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't -- try explaining "politically bisexual" as your identity every time your orientation comes up, lol). The idea that I had "proven myself" as a real lesbian turned me off and to this day I don't have many close lesbian friends at school. 'Course, I still love lesbians :) - nothing for it but to love women who love women.
So, to answer your question, after another embarrassingly long post, I guess bi girls experience all the same mistrust as bi guys, it's just that you probably get more flack from gay males and I get more flack from gay females. And you boys do have it worse, in my opinion, just because the disbelief/dismissive factor is ramped up more, and gay sex is still seen as taboo whereas lesbian sex -- not relationships, or between real people just female-female genitalia -- is much more widely depicted and accepted as "hot." Targeted, actual malice ('I don't date/trust/like bi girls because Bi Girl X did Y to me') I've found more within the queer community, but that might just be because we feel more able to talk freely amongst ourselves than a straight person busting in and hating on us :) Usually I experience the mistrust outside of the context of people who are hyper-tuned to sexual identity as an issue (so either straight people or just any people who aren't doing "queer" things like being at a queer meeting or in a class or something), so that people will just start talking about bisexuals as greedy or confused or needing to get it over with and come out, already. Just normal, over-a-few-drinks conversations where everyone somehow finds it acceptable to say things like that... Eh. Whaddaya gonna do.
p.s. Latte lefty? How delightful. Disparaging, I'm sure, but there's something to be said for owning up for my own bourgeois sense of progressivism, lol.
Downtown Amber --
I guess I just came from a place of being hurt because all the comments about bi fakery are things that I've heard and continue to hear as a part of general anti-bi sentiments. Especially since the anger against bi fakery is really just, these girls are acting slutty and therefore bisexual, and I hate that connection in general. It felt like the same thinly veiled mistrust -- how far is "Why is it so cool to be bi?" from the moms and dads and televangelists who tell their kids that there's no such thing as homosexuality, it's just a phase/fad/something "in" these days? I think the idea in general that we're questioning people about their sexual identity (or that they should "prove it" somehow) is already a little bit of shaky ground to stand on. Sure, it would piss me off if someone wanted to get boys by kissing girls. But honestly, I'm not that person, and I have no idea what they actually think or feel. And so the only actual difference that my being pissed off is putting out into the world is a contribution to the sense that many people are "faking" it. It just makes me uncomfortable, that's all. I'm not mad at people for being mad, I'm just saying, there's got to be some people who are willing to say HEY yes it's annoying but this is potentially not constructive, and let's think about some further implications.
With the dom/sub wannabe thing.. Eh. Aside from the fact that I'd be hard pressed to accurately claim the "true" BDSM or "Lifestyle" ideals, it's the same with me. I don't feel threatened by people doing whatever it is they're doing, be it in cheap leather or otherwise. I think they're silly, yeah, sure. But also I think, perhaps they'll find their way into something more, or perhaps this is enough for them, and, like you said, at least we're getting a little mainstream exposure. It's the same way with this bi-fakery issue. There's nothing about a girl kissing a girl who doesn't like to kiss girls that makes me like kissing girls any less. Hope that makes sense :)
You can be progressive without sleeping with a copy of Das Kapital under your pillow, is all. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
wel, yes as a Master I like to watch at two girls making out or better playng. But this is not why I am always asking a girl whether she is bi or not. The reason is that, based on my experience, girls whith a bi attitude are more playfull and more prone to make experiences with respect to straight girl. Going to men, yes they usually reject the possibility of being bi but I agree with whom is noticing the bi guy are the hottest...at least inmy experience. Good luck.
I haven't done it on this thread but I use that language.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
I want you to know that it isn't an expression of disrespect for actual bisexuals. I do it out of respect for actual bisexuals.
I think it is demeaning to actual bisexuals when you call yourself a bisexual because you are a woman who is willing to fuck another woman for the benefit of some man. If you do that, you are "claiming" to be bisexual. You are "flaunting," and you are the very essence of "so-called."
Your sexuality is about whom you feel romantic love for. Romantic love is a very powerful, very intense, very life changing things. And it is at the very heart of sexuality.
I really dislike it when people reduce sexuality to fucking. It bothers me as much when people can only think of gay men in terms of butt fucking. I think there a whole lot more to being gay than butt sex.
I just find it demeaning to love.
If you will only fuck a woman for your man, you are straight. It's a judgement call but I'm making it. If this is what you do and you have the audacity to call yourself bisexual, you are "so-called". I accuse every one of those people of being "so-called". And that has nothing to do with you or who you love or the respect I will have for your love.
I just wanted to be clear about that.
Hopefully I figured out how to use the quoting system right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwenn
Let me start off by saying perhaps your sexuality is about whom you feel romantic love for. My sexuality is about who and how and when and why I want to fuck, thank you. Wrapped in with this is who I love, if I love, because often when I love someone I want to fuck them. But perhaps not, love and sex are strange things. I really dislike it when people tell me things, anything, about my sexuality, so we're even. As for the gay comment: if you really feel that all my posts (which I have been sheepish about, until now) are just here to make more reductionary statements then I can't help you. I brought up the question of gay men in the context of every other sexuality and why we don't question them; it was to make a point about why we think this is okay to do for bisexuals and not anyone else, not to reduce gay men to buttfucking. But, as an extension to that, I also really feel that the LGBT community has to self-sanitize a lot of things for wider consumption -- bear with me here, it's a tangent, of course -- because when people think of "homosexuals" what they see and what they hear is often reduced to just that, sex. To try and get some respectability we try not to talk about it, use safe rhetoric like "we're just normal people too, why are you so fascinated about what's happening in the bedroom?" This is true, but that doesn't mean buttsex doesn't happen, lol. The queer rights movement has moved into a trend of this sort of "we're just like you please don't hate us" defense, but I'd like more than tolerance on the basis that we live and love just as other humans do; it presupposes that I have to justify my humanity in the first place. And I'm just tired of having to act like sex doesn't happen in order to have my sexuality valued (this is talking about sexuality in terms of gaining acceptance in the greater world, but also apparently me and you). So that's the reason why I specifically talk about sex if I want to talk about sex, because I can and should. I didn't say anything against love, just for sex, so that's a distinction I make about whether my sexuality being about sex somehow demeans love (it doesn't, but if you choose to respect my sexuality only if I love someone, whaddaya gonna do).
All I wanted out of my original post was to put this discussion of sexuality in perspective with a broader one that is not as accepting as this online community, because the parallels made me uncomfortable, even though I knew no one was doing it on purpose. I would argue that the parallels of mistrust for "bisexuals"-in-quotation-marks is echoing and helping the kind of dubiousness and disingenuousness-filled rhetoric that surrounds the queer community in general (at least in America). And I think it is rooted in that same counter-productive and oppressive place, whether we realize it or not. That is no one's fault -- we're fed seemingly-innocent things like this all the time, like how referring to it as "gay marriage" instead of "equal human rights" makes Middle America think of two dudes fucking instead of people people uniting through love, and consequently they vote for a marriage amendment. It sounds so simple and infuriating because it is. Not thinking about when or why or if our thoughts or terms of usage become framed/loaded/game schema'd can only hurt us, as melodramatic as that sounds. It's important, at least to me, to think about who and why we question, especially about their sexuality, because when we think it's okay to do something it's probably because we've been told that it's okay, and probably for a specific purpose. I literally just wanted to bring that up because it made me crazy that no one was saying it. I don't know what you got out of it, but it certainly wasn't that, and for that I apologize. I can't help but be apologetic every time I post here because all I'm doing is hijacking this post and then defending what I said because I wasn't articulate enough to pull it off the first go 'round. I regret that I am not as succinct as you are, Shwenn.
I understand that perhaps you are talking down to people who call themselves bisexual out of respect for actual bisexual people. This is not a viewpoint that I had thought of beforehand, and I actually appreciate it (as well as DowntownAmber for bringing it up last night). In response I can only say: as an actual bisexual person, I don't find this any more or less respectful than any other action, nor of any particular use, so I just don't get it. Saying someone might "have the audacity" to call themselves bisexual when they are not (and feeling the need to be angry/put them in their place by calling them "so-called") makes it seem like bisexuality is some pure, high state of being that gets sullied somehow by too many people misusing it. My qualm is not with the fact that people have different criteria for whether or not someone is bisexual and can rule people in or out of this category in their brains. It's that questioning or belittling or mistrusting any actual person who claims they are bisexual, even if they are not truly bisexual, does not do anything positive for the world. Even if it seems like we need to be defenders of the true faith, perhaps keeping out the not-truly-bi riffraff, I still say that someone else acting on their own sexuality, whether or not I think it is valid, does nothing to devalue my own. I don't know why it would devalue anyone else's or otherwise be a perceivable detriment besides proprietary annoyance (which is totally allowed, btw). This argument is not the intention of my post, but apparently the intention of the thread that I missed the first time, and this is the best way that I can process and respond to it. What are we, worried about street cred, here?
In closing, I'm sorry again to everyone who had to see these huge blocks of very unfun text in an otherwise fun place, or felt as though I was attacking them. I don't even usually post on forums because they make me nervous, lol, so I'm going to run away now and stop saying the same shit over and over :P Until, of course, I can pithy my life back up. I hope I made some sense, Shwenn, and I'll stop wasting the internet now. :)
We disagree about that and that is fine. We can disagree. I'm glad people disagree with me. That's what makes life interesting. I'm not happy about how personally you've taken this. I certainly hope you don't feel you shouldn't disagree with me ever again.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
My point was only to explain that I don't feel that bisexuality is inherently dubious. Some expressions of it are.
That wasn't directed at you. I don't think you reduced it to butt fucking. There are people who reduce male homosexuality to butt fucking and I take issue with that. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
Look, if you are not capable of romantic love with a woman and are only capable of romantic love with a man, I call that straight. If such a person were also capable of fucking a woman she but could never love a woman romantically, I would call that homophilia or something like that. Like, there is no such thing as necrosexuality since nobody will be able to love a corpse. All you would want to do it fuck it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
Stop apologising. If we are open and honest with each other about what we think, if we try to stop ourselves getting defensive (and we're all subject to feeling that way) or needing agreement, only then can we come to any sort of understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
I can't even make a point anymore. I am really sorry that I made you feel so attacked. That was so completely not my intention. I recognize that I make my points like a runaway freight train. It really does bother me when I see that my posting style has caused somebody real distress. I owe you an apology.Quote:
Originally Posted by pervertedpages
I really felt no ill will or anger or distaste for you at all when I made my post. I was just throwing ideas into the ether. I did it carelessly and thoughtlessly and I truly do feel bad that it made you feel the way it did.
I can only hope that it doesn't deter you from sharing your thoughts and ideas here in the future. I would hate myself if I had that effect on anybody.
Yeah, I felt pretty attacked, but only because each line seemed to have something to do with something I had said. Especially the gay sex line, since was precisely the opposite of what I was trying to get across, and you making it seemed as though it was in reference to my post. Glad to know it wasn't.
I'll go ahead and say that I'm pretty much the most apologetic person in the world, so it's not even as though I was apologizing to you specifically, I just.. do that when I throw out opinions I feel strongly about. Thing about being Catholic and Asian is, you get guilty. :) And I honestly wasn't that affected by you, it's just that the nature about my feelings on these issues is pretty strong and so is going to sound kind of defensive. Actually, feeling like your post was meant towards me gave me an extra opportunity to get back up on my soapbox about terminology framing and clarify my thoughts for myself, so only good came of it from my end. It doesn't seem like anything that I actually had to say was communicated past your own need for me to stop apologizing, but that's fine. I'll keep sharing my thoughts and then keep making jokes about "wasting the internet" because that's what I do when I get self-conscious about talking too much. It happens, it'll keep happening.
I once saw a documentary about a man who was in a serious, loving online relationship, and then he realized that he was actually just in love with his iBook. So then the iBook and he dated for a while. Ultimately, it didn't work out but they're still friends. Wacky, mostly joking example of times when people feel real emotion for shit you and I wouldn't classify as in the realm of possibility for love. He didn't fuck his iBook, but he cried when they broke up... lol. Love? Sex? What?
I did understand what you were trying to say and I do appreciate where you are coming from. I just didn't care. All I could really care about was how attacked I had made you feel. Until that was cleared up, the label discussion was irrelevant to me.
How you treat people is very important. I feel strongly about that. That is truly the basis of my problem with the whole bisexuality thing. People's hearts and emotions do get very wrapped up in sex. I think you should be very careful about other people's hearts.
I see, regularly, that 'so-called' bisexuals are quite careless with 'actual' bisexuals and lesbians.
I do think it is possible to have sex without love where nobody gets hurt. But, just because you aren't interested in love doesn't mean that's how the situation is going to play out. If somebody thinks there is a possibility you might love them and that is not true, they are in a very precarious situation.
I see a lot of callousness. I also see it in a lot of purely straight women who have male friends. They know he loves her but pretend it's just a friendship. They pretend to be unaware of all the possibilities he thinks exist but truly don't.
It just seems to me that, if you had compassion for others, you wouldn't call yourself a bisexual if the possibility of love didn't exist. You wouldn't talk about labels, you would only care about making sure the other person didn't harbor secret, impossible hopes.
That's what really bothers me about it. I don't put bisexuals on a pedestal. I don't put anybody on a pedestal. I think we're all retards. Different groups tend to be retarded in different ways but we're all retarded.
Dan Savage has something called the 'campsite rule'. Whatever sexual relationship you get into, the golen rule is the campsite rule. Do everything in your power to make sure the person is as good or better off than when you found them.
It is possible that my experiences have not been representative of how these people really are. But, my experiences do cause me to think that these women who call themselves bisexual but could never love a woman are the kinds of people who leave trash and smoldering fire.
It's not just us girls that can be bi, there is a bunch of guys out there too, i dont know what the big deal is , i allready said my peace earlier, to be honest it sounds as if some people are wanting to make some distinctions that would be discriminatory regarding thier sexuality, what about all the married men out there that run around being in sex only relationships with other men?
all i am saying is to stereotype us is a rather narrow minded point of view, its like me saying all doms just want doormatts and only the doms that dont say thier doms are the real ones etc
I have read through the majority of this thread and honestly... why does it even have to be "labeled?" It is their life choices, done in their bedrooms. If you are asked to participate then you have a voice in what is done, if not, it's none of your business. If they make it your business then you can either respond or ignore it. Personally I see my relationships in that area to special to "share" a lot of details openly. It's no ones business but mine, period.
As to the opening statement about most sub missives being bi. Ummm... i'm sub but don't consider myself bi, even though I am currently serving 2 Dommes. Heck, my actual sexual experience with women could pretty well fit on the head of a pin. It isn't the gender that is the turn on for me, it is the power exchange and how well their dominance fits with my submissiveness. Their are as many men out there who don't turn me on either... because the dominate connection isn't there.
So, I don't consider myself bi, hetro, bi curious, or any other "label" i consider my self submissive. Period... a submissive who was damn lucky enough to find the dominate(s) to fullfil that portion of me.