Does the Haiti earthquake prove that there is no god?

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Originally Posted by Saheli

I saw a quote about faith once, "Faith is not believing in spite of evidence; faith is obeying in spite of consequences." To me, that means doing whatever I believe in, whether it's in God or in helping the homeless person downtown..I think more people should obey their conscience..

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You do realize that this can also apply to murderers? A man in Kansas was just convicted of killing an abortion doctor, because he was doing what he believed in. Of course, he tried to avoid the consequences, so perhaps his faith wasn't all that strong.

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There is no empirical test I can give to prove God, and I don't care to try. You are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't want to interfere with that at all.

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I don't try to destroy people's faith, but I do think people have to understand their beliefs, and especially to understand how those beliefs can be twisted by leaders of organized religions. Atrocities like 9/11, or the slaughter of gays in Uganda, or the kidnapping of children in Haiti are only some of the consequences.

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There will never be any fool-proof evidence either way; this argument will continue until the end of time. Until then we're all just wading around in our best guesses and (like you said) interpretations of the things we see and feel. I love listening to people who think differently than I do, though. It's amazing how unique we an all be.

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I agree that there can never be fool-proof evidence to deny the existence of gods. There COULD be fool-proof evidence FOR the existence, but (conveniently) these all-powerful beings just don't seem to want to provide such evidence.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

Just because there is evil in the world and catastrophes, that means God causes them or doesn't mind them? i don't see how that means that at all.

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It's not that this is evidence against gods in general, just that it is evidence against the standard J/C/I god of the bible. The point is that we don't know, cannot know, whether such gods exist without direct evidence. You can believe, or not believe, whatever you wish, but without tangible evidence it's no better than make-believe.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

You do realize that this can also apply to murderers? A man in Kansas was just convicted of killing an abortion doctor, because he was doing what he believed in. Of course, he tried to avoid the consequences, so perhaps his faith wasn't all that strong.

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I see what you mean. I don't mean that everyone should follow their conscience without any boundaries. I think that's dangerous; you pointed out a very good reason why we need boundaries. I think that we should listen to our conscience and do all we feel we should with respect to laws and the basic rights of people. The man who killed the abortion doctor may claim that he was doing what he believed in, and maybe so...but to claim Christ in that murder is ridiculous, since the Bible prohibits Christians from not only murdering, but taking revenge as well. So as far as murderers are concerned, murder is against the law; laws should always provide boundaries to what we do if we are going to be decent citizens.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

I don't try to destroy people's faith, but I do think people have to understand their beliefs, and especially to understand how those beliefs can be twisted by leaders of organized religions. Atrocities like 9/11, or the slaughter of gays in Uganda, or the kidnapping of children in Haiti are only some of the consequences.

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I completely agree. I think that religious leaders who capitalize on natural disasters or other atrocities so that they can 'explain' how people who suffered somehow deserved it and if only everyone could be more like whoever is doing the condeming then these things wouldn't happen are completely evil. I think that is one of the absolute worst things anyone who subscribes to any religion can do.

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Originally Posted by DuncanONeil

Such events do not disprove God!

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That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you? :hubba:

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you? :hubba:

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This is the fundamentalist tactic:
"I say it, therefore it's so."
"You can't show us a crocoduck, therefore evilution is wrong."
"I can't understand how the universe could have developed from nothing, therefore God did it."

They don't need evidence, they don't need explanations, simply pronouncements from on high.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

It's not that this is evidence against gods in general, just that it is evidence against the standard J/C/I god of the bible. The point is that we don't know, cannot know, whether such gods exist without direct evidence. You can believe, or not believe, whatever you wish, but without tangible evidence it's no better than make-believe.

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Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all. i watched my oh so fundamentalist mother in church 5 or 6 days and to me it was amusing but to her it brought great comfort. i don't feel that because i don't believe in Jesus that i have the right to ask her to prove it as why would i want to remove her comfort? my ex is a devout athiest and he is as arrogant about it as some born agains are fanatical. no offense to anyone at all, btw. when groups of religious people come knocking at my door to talk, while i doubt i will ever be one of them i like talking to people who enjoy their beliefs so strongly. proof to me is in the eye of the beholder.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all.

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If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

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i actually agree with quite alot of what you said, my beliefs include respecting others paths a valid and true for them. i don't believe i have the right to judge if their path is right. my proof of God is that i no longer use drugs as do lots of people in AA, once we stopped trying on human power. that may sound corny to someone else. do i use that on my kids? not at all! they are left to figure it out. i have done the best i can to introduce as many belief systems to them and they are left to choose one, some, none or all as they see fit. proselytizing, elitism, judgment and blame are not of God at all. that's people.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

do i use that on my kids? not at all! they are left to figure it out.

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That's the sad part for me. We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means. If someone decides there are no gods, if someone decides there are many, if someone decides there is only one, if someone decides that god is really a state of mind...whatever a person believes, why can't other people just leave it alone? There is nothing worse than for someone to attack the way you feel about something and like Thorne said, especially when all they have to defend it is some type of, "Trust me..I know better." That's just insulting. People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through. So I wish that in this area people could just be more understanding. You don't believe the way I do? Fine...you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

I feel like the best thing I can do in life is try to figure out what's important to me, to try my best to not take those things for granted, and to try and leave a positive impact on those around me. It is definitely not my job to try and tell others what to think, and I'm pretty sure we can all agree that people who do that are not only annoying but leave a negative impact. 13'sbadkitty, I think it's really good that you don't try to shove your beliefs down your children's throats. I wish that more people would do the same. This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

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Originally Posted by Saheli

We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means.

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This is where I run into difficulties. Why does life have to mean anything? It just is. Why does there have to be something after death? Just because we want it? I would think that knowing this is all there is, this is all the life you will get, should be enough to motivate people to get the most out of that life. Skating through, hoping for some nebulous after-life is just the lazy way out.

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Originally Posted by Saheli

People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through.

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In my experience there are far too many people who are stupid, or who at least act stupidly. And the large majority of people who believe things don't really know why they believe it. They were raised that way, they were taught that way, so that's how it is. If they did stop to think about it, many would have to decide that they were misled their whole lives. Living in the South, I have seen an awful lot of so-called Christians who can't even understand the 4th grade level of a newspaper, much less the more challenging Bible which they so vehemently espouse.

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you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

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That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches.

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This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

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Amen!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

This is where I run into difficulties. Why does life have to mean anything? It just is. Why does there have to be something after death? Just because we want it? I would think that knowing this is all there is, this is all the life you will get, should be enough to motivate people to get the most out of that life. Skating through, hoping for some nebulous after-life is just the lazy way out.

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lol...well, life doesn't HAVE to mean anything. If life doesn't mean anything, then the answer to what life means is nothing. So then life still means something in that it means nothing. I wasn't trying to say that it HAD to mean something...I just didn't specify that to me, it having no meaning is still its meaning to an individual...no meaning is always an option!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

In my experience there are far too many people who are stupid, or who at least act stupidly. And the large majority of people who believe things don't really know why they believe it. They were raised that way, they were taught that way, so that's how it is. If they did stop to think about it, many would have to decide that they were misled their whole lives. Living in the South, I have seen an awful lot of so-called Christians who can't even understand the 4th grade level of a newspaper, much less the more challenging Bible which they so vehemently espouse.

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When I said people aren't stupid, I mean that the human being is an intelligent species. I completely agree with you. Humans are intelligent but few choose to act on it...sort of the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Most people don't even care to figure out facts to be able to SHOW wisdom...like you said, "they were raised that way...so that's how it is."

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Originally Posted by Thorne

That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches.

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Yes, I agree. There was a reason why the founder of this country thought that separation of church and state is a good idea, and I agree with them. Personally, I feel like if you are religious and are completely convinced you're right, why do you feel the need to parade your ideas everywhere? It just seems to me that the people who fight so hard to plaster ideas constantly must not be too convinced of those ideas themselves: otherwise why fight so hard to keep it in people's faces? Isn't that just the basic bandwagon technique? That isn't a good way to convince anyone of anything. It's just childish and annoying.

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Originally Posted by thir

This was the title of a program on BBC 2 today.

An age old discussion is of course that if God (Gods,Goddess) is all powerful and loving, why does he allow such things to happen?

Several in the program talked about these things being a test for your faith, or a way to improve your character because you need important choices in your life. (Apperently this would apply to survivors, whether to help each other or fight over food.)

Some said life was a gift however long or short, and we should be happy for what we get.

So, does things like the earhquake prove that there is no God and if not, why are these things allowed to happen?

Are the Gods (if they exist) really interested in us on a personal basis?

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I have written a book about a fictitious warrior, who like I do, believes in the old Gods, Odin Zeus, Neptune etc, I hope to have it published sometime this year, and it is being edited as I write this post. The Gods were kept in the heavens by the mortals on earth to spiritually guide them through life, and as long as people believe in them they will still exist. Stop believing in a God and he will fade away, every God that you put before me I will tell you it is a myth, because that is what I have been taught and not what I believe. In my book the Gods I am talking about where put there to oversee the world in its infancy, when we really believed in trolls, fairies, imps, elves, witches and demons. They in turn were put there by a greater being, and shall we say as in my book the Creators, and it is these beings that invisibly patrol the universe.

I don’t think for one minute that the Haiti earthquake was a test of faith; it was a natural occurrence, and before we that are in this thread die, there will be many more. There will be more Tsunamis, Earth quakes and volcanic eruptions, they are meant to happen as the earth cools, and are in the pages of time if we could read them. If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars. Is there a god? The unanswered Question, but the truth of the question is, if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

Regards ian 2411

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars.

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So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

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But only in your own mind.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

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It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set. If you went back in time and saved all those lives that were being lost in WW Two, by killing Hitler before the war even started, then Both the UK and the USA would be in the same predicament as China with its population explosion and there would be no Israel. Once that war had been won our countries futures had been re-set, and this will keep taking place to the end of time, whether you choose to believe or not.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

Is there a god? The unanswered Question, but the truth of the question is, if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

But only in your own mind.

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If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

i am getting married in a few months and wanted a ceremony that had more than the requirements of New York State. i found an officiant who was raised a Jew, became a Zen Buddhist and is a Reverend. He and i were talking he said something i really liked which is maybe veering off the path alittle bit. He said what we call God really comes down to alphabet. The one thing i do teach my kids is that God is everywhere and in everyone if you look hard enough. i practice Native American spirituality. The only thing of that that i try to impress upon them is respect everything as part of Creator and Creation. Everything has something to show you if you look. As Ian said there will be many more deaths in many more ways till the end of time. My mother just died 12/24 after being sick for 5 years and suffering the entire time. As in Job, she was a devout Christian when she got sick. There were times when she said that she didn't know why God let her suffer so. As in Job, the only thing anyone could do was sit quietly and attend to her suffering. i went to the Tibetan book of the Dead for my guidance in how to help her. Did anything i or the Christians do help her? She had also gone to the Rabbi during her lucid times as she was from a Jewish background. Did he bring her comfort? i don't know. She suffered worse than anyone i have ever watched die and cried out for help 24/7. The morning she died she spoke to her aide (she hadn't been lucid for months) and told her she was ready to die, to rest in peace and she died shortly after. So my point is this, during her suffering it clearly looked like all the faith in the world did nothing at all for her. She had said she felt abandoned. In the last moments of her life ( a devout life) it was clear that her faith had sustained her and led her to the next plane. i do not believe in heaven or hell. i do believe in a spirit world that mirrors this except we are closer to the Creator. i do believe we have lessons to learn that help us to grow in the direction our spirit is to grow. Do i think that i have the right to tell you how to live? in my beliefs that is a very big no no. My point is only that suffering doesn't mean that God is allowing it as death is part of this world. We suffer through birth, we suffer through death. To me its the same, to you it is what ever it is. Suffering is as pleasure is. To me reflections of the same thing. Nobody ever walks into a tv or radio station saying there was no natural disasters today so this is proof that God is here. i think its beautiful that we think and wonder and discuss the God idea as part of being human. To me, its proof that somewhere within us is a spot that needs this to grow. If there is a God and God wanted us to know for sure, it seems like it would be easy enough. i think we are meant to wonder and discuss and argue about this. i know i went several different directions at once with this post, random girl strikes again.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set.

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I was not mocking anyone, I don't think. At least not deliberately. But I do laugh at the predestination idea. I don't know what you mean by "the theory of the past being changed once it has been set", but I thought we were talking about the future. No, the past is done, fixed, immutable. The future is what we make it. Your post implied that the future, too was fixed, and that the gods cannot interfere because of that. That would mean, then, that our present is their past, and our path is fixed. I cannot see any evidence for that, however. While travel into the past is limited to history and archeology and such, we are all traveling into the future with every breath we take. And it's changed by every decision we make.

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If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

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While not quite so drastic, perhaps, I was in a similar situation when my second son was born. We got to the hospital easily, they put her in a birthing room, or whatever the hell it was called then, and things seemed all right. Suddenly they were wheeling her down the corridor, nurses calling for a surgery, the doctor tearing off his jacket, asking where his people were, a nurse dragging me into a changing room to scrub and put on a surgical gown. I'll tell you, it was a terrifying few minutes, for sure. But I didn't call on some fictional deity for help. I called my mother. On the phone. Does that make her God?

People dream up all kinds of creations in their minds. Libraries are full of these creations. It's called fiction. Thinking about them doesn't make them real. Writing about them doesn't make them real. The gods of modern man are no more real than the gods of Valhalla, or Mount Olympus, or the great god Gurk who brought the mammoths each year.

13'sbadkitty,
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. And I'm glad that your faith has helped you to deal with that loss.

My own parents are still here, though my mother is not well. Thankfully she's not in any pain, but she has become more religious as she's grown older. It brings her comfort and I try to support her in it where I can. Like you, I won't try to force my beliefs, or lack of them, on anyone. I only ask that they provide me the same courtesy.

Again, my condolences.

[QUOTE=Thorne;843604] While not quite so drastic, perhaps, I was in a similar situation when my second son was born. We got to the hospital easily, they put her in a birthing room, or whatever the hell it was called then, and things seemed all right. Suddenly they were wheeling her down the corridor, nurses calling for a surgery, the doctor tearing off his jacket, asking where his people were, a nurse dragging me into a changing room to scrub and put on a surgical gown. I'll tell you, it was a terrifying few minutes, for sure. But I didn't call on some fictional deity for help. I called my mother. On the phone. Does that make her God? QUOTE]

Are you trying to tell 48.207 members of this site and me Thorn, that since you were born you have never uttered any of these phrases? Good god, good lord, for god’s sake, god knows, god bless you, sorry but please excuse me for saying I don’t believe you.

Does that make her a god?

Was there really any need for that irrelivant question?

Regards ian 2411

[QUOTE=ian 2411;843611]

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Are you trying to tell 48.207 members of this site and me Thorn, that since you were born you have never uttered any of these phrases? Good god, good lord, for god’s sake, god knows, god bless you, sorry but please excuse me for saying I don’t believe you.

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Of course not! That's not what I said at all. But what difference if I do say it? I've said things like that all my life. They're endemic to the American language. But just because I say, "God damn it!" doesn't mean I believe he will.

Your post stated that just believing in gods make them real, did it not?

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if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

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Now you seem to be saying that just speaking the word, God or Goddess, makes him or her real. But which god/goddess? Thor? Hera? Venus? Jehovah? There's four more I've spoken aloud. I'll expect Xmas cards from all of them.

So:

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Was there really any need for that irrelivant question?

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Perhaps my question wasn't irrelevant after all? If just believing it can make it true, then faith can, indeed, move mountains. And my mother can, indeed, be a goddess.

[QUOTE=Thorne;843678]

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

Now you seem to be saying that just speaking the word, God or Goddess, makes him or her real. But which god/goddess? Thor? Hera? Venus? Jehovah? There's four more I've spoken aloud. I'll expect Xmas cards from all of them.

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Xmas cards are not about God they are about celebrating the birth of Christ, and he was not a god, he was a prophet. I think that the reason you don’t believe in any god, is because you have never been taught the basics.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

Xmas cards are not about God they are about celebrating the birth of Christ, and he was not a god, he was a prophet. I think that the reason you don’t believe in any god, is because you have never been taught the basics.

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LOL! Please! I had more than 12 years of learning the basics. And check your own sources. Christ is the son of God, and in the Catholic Church he is considered an aspect of the Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three gods for the price of one!

And CHRISTMAS is about celebrating the birth of Christ, even though from bliblical references he was probably born (if he existed at all) in the spring rather than the beginning of winter, and even though the timing for Christmas was set to coincide with the pagan solstice festivals, first as an effort to hide Christian celebrations amongst the pagan celebrations, and later to make it easier for those pagans to convert.

Besides which, the Xmas card comment was SARCASM!

And finally, the reason I don't believe in any god is because I have never seen anything even remotely resembling evidence for the existence of any supernatural beings. All I've ever heard, my whole life, is hearsay and speculation. And if there's one thing my good Catholic education taught me, it was to rely on evidence, not hearsay, to decide what's real or not.

So again I say, to you and to any others here who feel I'm wrong: show me the evidence!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

And Christ is the son of God

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Wrong, he was the self proclaimed son of God, the only others that says the same were the disciples. The rest is hearsay.



[QUOTE=Thorne;843706]Besides which, the Xmas card comment was SARCASM[QUOTE]


Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and very derisive.


If you cannot comment positively then don’t comment at all, I came into thread for a discussion with all posters debating the validity of God. Not to get in an argument with you, because you have some personal vendetta with anyone that differs from your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

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This is one of the biggest debate in Christian circles also...and there are two main groups that have formed from it. Calvinists believe that God has chosen who will become saved and who won't, and so there is no point in trying to convert anyone or even in trying to become saved, because if you are chosen then you will and if not there is nothing you can do but go to Hell. Non-Calvinsts, obviously, believe the opposite. It's also pretty obvoius that the guy who came up with Calvinistic view was named Calvin...gotta love the creativity!

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

i am getting married in a few months and wanted a ceremony that had more than the requirements of New York State. i found an officiant who was raised a Jew, became a Zen Buddhist and is a Reverend. He and i were talking he said something i really liked which is maybe veering off the path alittle bit. He said what we call God really comes down to alphabet. The one thing i do teach my kids is that God is everywhere and in everyone if you look hard enough. i practice Native American spirituality. The only thing of that that i try to impress upon them is respect everything as part of Creator and Creation. Everything has something to show you if you look. As Ian said there will be many more deaths in many more ways till the end of time. My mother just died 12/24 after being sick for 5 years and suffering the entire time. As in Job, she was a devout Christian when she got sick. There were times when she said that she didn't know why God let her suffer so. As in Job, the only thing anyone could do was sit quietly and attend to her suffering. i went to the Tibetan book of the Dead for my guidance in how to help her. Did anything i or the Christians do help her? She had also gone to the Rabbi during her lucid times as she was from a Jewish background. Did he bring her comfort? i don't know. She suffered worse than anyone i have ever watched die and cried out for help 24/7. The morning she died she spoke to her aide (she hadn't been lucid for months) and told her she was ready to die, to rest in peace and she died shortly after. So my point is this, during her suffering it clearly looked like all the faith in the world did nothing at all for her. She had said she felt abandoned. In the last moments of her life ( a devout life) it was clear that her faith had sustained her and led her to the next plane. i do not believe in heaven or hell. i do believe in a spirit world that mirrors this except we are closer to the Creator. i do believe we have lessons to learn that help us to grow in the direction our spirit is to grow. Do i think that i have the right to tell you how to live? in my beliefs that is a very big no no. My point is only that suffering doesn't mean that God is allowing it as death is part of this world. We suffer through birth, we suffer through death. To me its the same, to you it is what ever it is. Suffering is as pleasure is. To me reflections of the same thing. Nobody ever walks into a tv or radio station saying there was no natural disasters today so this is proof that God is here. i think its beautiful that we think and wonder and discuss the God idea as part of being human. To me, its proof that somewhere within us is a spot that needs this to grow. If there is a God and God wanted us to know for sure, it seems like it would be easy enough. i think we are meant to wonder and discuss and argue about this. i know i went several different directions at once with this post, random girl strikes again.

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I really appreciate your post. I also believe that we can always find something positive in things and learn from them...like you said "Everything has something to show you if you look." The biggest problem with people is that we're too busy showing everyone else what we think that we don't have time to see what the things around us are trying to show to us. Instead of showing, we should take more time to learn. I am very sorry about the story of your mother. I know it will be hard to get married without your mother there, but I am very glad that you shared her story here. It was very insightful. And I also believe like you that everything has a counter-part...a mirror, and it was a very insightful observation to note that people tend to ask questions in one scenario when they wouldn't even think to ask in the opposite.

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

Wrong, he was the self proclaimed son of God, the only others that says the same were the disciples. The rest is hearsay.

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Perhaps in your belief system. In the Catholic Church, Jesus is God, one leg of the Trinity.

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If you cannot comment positively then don’t comment at all, I came into thread for a discussion with all posters debating the validity of God. Not to get in an argument with you, because you have some personal vendetta with anyone that differs from your point of view.

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I have no quarrel with anyone's point of view, per se. I am a firm proponent of letting others believe what they wish. It's only when they try to convince me, or others, that what they believe is absolutely true that I will question them. But if your beliefs are unable to stand up to those questions perhaps you shouldn't put them out into an open forum.

And to my knowledge all of my comments have been of a positive nature. They just don't correspond to your beliefs.

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

They say that the basic element of light matter is strings of energy. I believe these strings of energy are the creator of the universe. He has a voice and a spirit as will if you look.

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

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Originally Posted by Hamishlacastle

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

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But why would he not intervene?

Ok Thorn get your thinking cap around this idea, it is something that has fasinated my mind for a long time. No one really knows anything about the universe that we live in, and even less about how it was created, ok that theory about the big bang, for those that thought of that , well let them live with it because it is only educated guess work, so now hear is my theory as daft as it might seem. The universe is a molacule of a lump of steel, the earth is an atom of that molacule, and the person that made the steel is God, all hail to the steel workers; and before you ask, no i have no idea if the steel workers god is real or if he has one. LoL

Regards ian 2411

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

Ok Thorn get your thinking cap around this idea, it is something that has fasinated my mind for a long time. No one really knows anything about the universe that we live in, and even less about how it was created, ok that theory about the big bang, for those that thought of that , well let them live with it because it is only educated guess work, so now hear is my theory as daft as it might seem. The universe is a molacule of a lump of steel, the earth is an atom of that molacule, and the person that made the steel is God, all hail to the steel workers; and before you ask, no i have no idea if the steel workers god is real or if he has one. LoL

Regards ian 2411

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Not a very original idea, I must say. Except for the steel workers part, I suppose. I've read a few science fiction stories in my day with similar plots. And if that's what you want to believe, if that makes you comfortable, fine. I won't argue with it.

But may I ask, do you have any evidence to support your religion? Does your religion explain the observed expansion of the universe? Does your religion explain the observed facts of evolution and geology? If so, show me the evidence. Make your case. Who knows? You may even be able to convert me!

Scientists know a hell of a lot about the universe, through observation and deduction and experimentation. They can explain the evolution of the cosmos from a point many thousandths of a second after the Big Bang (which wasn't really a bang, btw) up to the present and on into the future. They can explain the movement of the continents across the face of the globe, splitting and combining, forming oceans and mountains, over billions of years, and into the future. They can even explain the evolution of life, from a festering puddle of toxic goo; through the huddled, superstitious clans hiding in caves; right up to the sprawling, still superstitious, masses of humanity we have today. All supported by evidence, thoughtful deduction and, yes, even a little educated guesswork thrown in. And none of it requires the presence of an invisible man to keep things running smoothly.

So again I say: Show me the evidence! Go ahead. Make me a convert to your steel worker god.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Not a very original idea, I must say. Except for the steel workers part, I suppose. I've read a few science fiction stories in my day with similar plots. And if that's what you want to believe, if that makes you comfortable, fine. I won't argue with it.

But may I ask, do you have any evidence to support your religion? Does your religion explain the observed expansion of the universe? Does your religion explain the observed facts of evolution and geology? If so, show me the evidence. Make your case. Who knows? You may even be able to convert me!

Scientists know a hell of a lot about the universe, through observation and deduction and experimentation. They can explain the evolution of the cosmos from a point many thousandths of a second after the Big Bang (which wasn't really a bang, btw) up to the present and on into the future. They can explain the movement of the continents across the face of the globe, splitting and combining, forming oceans and mountains, over billions of years, and into the future. They can even explain the evolution of life, from a festering puddle of toxic goo; through the huddled, superstitious clans hiding in caves; right up to the sprawling, still superstitious, masses of humanity we have today. All supported by evidence, thoughtful deduction and, yes, even a little educated guesswork thrown in. And none of it requires the presence of an invisible man to keep things running smoothly.

So again I say: Show me the evidence! Go ahead. Make me a convert to your steel worker god.

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On this occasion I have to agree with you, but that still does not prove we are not in a steel plate. The worrying thing is since writing my last post, I have just looked at my car, and was wondering how many universes would be in it, LoL, meaning space, time, continuum. Now I have an appointment with a psychiatrist that I must keep.

Convert you? I very much doubt it.

Regards ian 2411

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Originally Posted by ian 2411

On this occasion I have to agree with you, but that still does not prove we are not in a steel plate.

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I've never said it does. I've also never claimed that science proves that God does not exist. In fact, as I've often said, no one can prove that anything does not exist. It's impossible to prove a negative. All we can do is say that there is no evidence to show that something exists, or perhaps show that the existence of item A would mean that item B could not exist, but since item B does exist then item A cannot exist.

And tomorrow, when we prove the existence of item A and yet item B still exists, a whole new field of science will be born! Hallelujah!

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Convert you? I very much doubt it.

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Miracles have been known to happen.

Haven't they?

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Originally Posted by Hamishlacastle

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

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I can appreciate what you're saying, but it seems more poetic than thought out... For instance, what exactly do you mean when you say that you "believe that Love/god was in every crack..."? "His love oozed through the quake."? And this last one is the one that some might interpret offensively..."his light shone on every dying soul". I get the sentiment, that you believe that God was present in the situation. If you were wording for poetic reasons, ok...that would make sense. But if you are stating those things as reasons why the eartquake proves there is a God, then I think explaining a little wouldn't hurt, because I don't know what kind of argument that is..

this is probably not going to be read, and im admittedly late to the table, but the earthquake shows nothing. There is nothing inherently evil in an earthquake, it is a natural occurence due to the tectonic shifting in the earth (or something like that). If this happened and nobody was hurt, it would not be considered evil

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Originally Posted by tedteague

If this happened and nobody was hurt, it would not be considered evil

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Maybe not, but you can be damned sure someone would call it a miracle, and proof of the existence of God.

I always get a chuckle when people claim that they survived an earthquake, or a flood, or a tornado because of God, yet they never blame God for the disaster in the first place. After all, according to the Bible, earthquakes, floods and other natural disasters are always considered to be caused by God's wrath. Just once I'd like to hear someone say, "Well, God tried to kill me with this storm, but I had the foresight to dig myself a storm cellar and he missed me."

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you? :hubba:

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Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

This is the fundamentalist tactic:
"I say it, therefore it's so."
"You can't show us a crocoduck, therefore evilution is wrong."
"I can't understand how the universe could have developed from nothing, therefore God did it."

They don't need evidence, they don't need explanations, simply pronouncements from on high.

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As stated;

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Originally Posted by Ozme52 View Post
That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

I did not advocate for the other side either!

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

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Originally Posted by Thorne

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

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