Thats just like arguing for the abolishment of all science becuase people have been harmed by some of it's fruits Thorne.
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Thats just like arguing for the abolishment of all science becuase people have been harmed by some of it's fruits Thorne.
It is as elitist in my opinion to feel that anyone who doesn't agree with oneself is either crazy, silly or dangerous. People have been killing people for all sorts of crazy reasons throughout time. Religion can be used just like money or property.
I think that all things are paradoxical. Its too easy to say it has to go because there are bad people in the world who do hurtful things and use something as the justification of it. Being respectful doesn't just mean that you don't say to someone they are deranged or silly for religious belief, it means you don't assume they are deranged or silly for having belief. I agree with you that there are evil people that should be fought against. Thats not even close to a reasonable proportion of people with those beliefs. There is nothing silly about people feeling like something gives direction or purpose to their lives. As a parent there is a deep spiritual connection to my kids. To me when I saw the sunrise this morning took my puppy out for a walk the world was quiet and covered with snow. I knew that i wanted to post the pictures i took here on this thread as it was a moment i knew a connection with something bigger than myself that wasn't to comfort pain or make someone else feel small. it was just beauty
Not quite. Most of the examples in that link happened because people used religion to justify doing harm to others, or at least to justify not helping others. But in some cases it is an entire religion which is harming people. The Catholic Church recently told the Catholics of Africa that use of condoms was forbidden because it helps to spread AIDS when in reality the opposite is true. Condom use significantly reduces the spread of AIDS. The Church, however, is more concerned with the possibility of the condoms promoting promiscuity. It's irrelevant to them that hundreds of thousands will die of AIDS, as long as they don't fuck anyone before they do it. That's not only harmful, it's criminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
Yes, people can abuse science, too. No question. But there is no concerted effort by scientists to harm people, no twisting of scientific truth to keep people ignorant. Doctors aren't heading into Haiti to kidnap children, or to distribute solar powered bibles.
I agree. Unless they actually DO something crazy, silly or dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty
Again, I agree. But very few have been as effective at it as the Catholic Church or the Muslim jihadists.Quote:
People have been killing people for all sorts of crazy reasons throughout time.
I'm not sure I understand this one. How can you use religion to buy food? In fact, if you could buy food with prayer there wouldn't be any hunger in the world.Quote:
Religion can be used just like money or property.
Not even if their belief is silly? Or deranged?Quote:
Being respectful doesn't just mean that you don't say to someone they are deranged or silly for religious belief, it means you don't assume they are deranged or silly for having belief.
I'm not talking about individual people, here, but entire organizations which are leading their followers down these paths of irrationality.
I agree with you again. I've said so many times. As long as they use it for their own lives and don't try to force it upon my life or the lives of innocent children.Quote:
There is nothing silly about people feeling like something gives direction or purpose to their lives.
And let's not forget Martin Luther's attacks on the use of reason to make our lives better.
Will we just ignore the whole methadology behind the science used by the nazi's to justify their uses of science on the jews and others then shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
Not to mention some of the crap our own country has done to minorities in the past in the name of science.
We will just forget the whole atheist driven communist progons and resultant wars in russia, china and southeast asia then too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
Where btw with the aide of "science" in a few short years more people were tortured and killed than in all of the crusades, inquisitions and jihads of history combined.
I'm not saying we should ignore such things. I'm not saying they were right.Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
But think about the reasons why such atrocities could be committed in the first place. Jews were persecuted for centuries because of their denunciation of Jesus. And the Church was a leader in these persecutions. This set the stage for the rampant anti-semitism of the Nazis.
The American minorities, primarily African-Americans, were kept in slavery and regarded as less than human by pious men quoting the Bible, such as Leviticus 25:44-46
While the leaders of the communist movement may have been atheist, such atheism had little or nothing to do with their actions. Their whole purpose was to control the very minds of their subjects. To do this they had to remove any other controlling forces, such as religion. It was greed and the lust for power that drove those men, not atheism. And not science. The only use the communists had for science was in trying to keep up with western advances in armaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
Can we say the same of those killed for the sake of religions?
An interesting list here, too.
Money and land as an excuse to kill has killed as effectively if not more than any other excuse. Why was the genocide of the Native Americans perpetrated? It certainly had everything to do with what was perceived as a rich place to put their stuff, no? Because the Catholic Church commits atrocities against the people with regard to anything, i agree its wrong completely and if there is a hell i hope the first in line are the fundamentalist few who cause harm in Gods name. American politicians let how many die from aids because it was considered a good way to clean up the homosexual and addict problem? Ronald Reagan died a hero here as he intentionally allowed and encouraged this? As he colluded with the Catholic Church for political gain? For what ever excuse is used to justify bad behavior, religious or otherwise, isn't greed at heart?
I think that many things are silly or deranged in this world, yet i usually know deep within that i don't get to pronounce those titles though without being judgmental. Deranged meaning crazy is sometimes a legit to call other times its a "this is out of my experience" and there for i am not accepting it. There are many things i agree with you about, the basic difference to me being that i don't feel i have the right to judge other peoples experience. i sometimes wonder, if when people want to seek out information to support their view it isn't too easy to ignore what doesn't.
Greed and power are the two prime motivators, I would say. And religion and politics are the two biggest methods for gaining the money and the power. But in politics, at least in this country, they have to at least appear to be trying to please the people in order to get elected. In religion, the leaders are appointed, sometimes even self-appointed, and generally claim a divine right to perpetrate their crimes. And when religion and politics get into bed with one another, things get way out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty
Religions are quite good at doing just this. Look up Intelligent Design, or Creationism, especially. Their basic precept seems to be, "I can't imagine that his could happen all by itself, therefore God did it." They don't need to provide evidence, don't even want to look for evidence. God is the answer to everything they don't understand. I need something more.Quote:
I think that many things are silly or deranged in this world, yet i usually know deep within that i don't get to pronounce those titles though without being judgmental. Deranged meaning crazy is sometimes a legit to call other times its a "this is out of my experience" and there for i am not accepting it.
I try not to judge individuals on their beliefs or their experiences. I'm sure many of them are devout and sincere in their beliefs. It's only when they try to force those beliefs on everyone, by forcing them into schools or into the law, that I get up in arms. And as I've said, if someone wishes to discuss their beliefs, all I ask for is evidence to show why they think they're right. I will try to show evidence for why I think they're wrong. No personal attacks, no ridicule, no judgement. Just an honest discussion of facts.Quote:
There are many things i agree with you about, the basic difference to me being that i don't feel i have the right to judge other peoples experience. i sometimes wonder, if when people want to seek out information to support their view it isn't too easy to ignore what doesn't.
Quote:
People have been killing people for all sorts of crazy reasons throughout time.
Djengis Khan? Nazis? Japaneese medieval warfare? First world war?Quote:
Again, I agree. But very few have been as effective at it as the Catholic Church or the Muslim jihadists.
In the (to me) very understandable outrage over the way religion can be abused, let us not forget that people kill in great numbers for all other kinds of reasons - greed, powerlust, or to make the world a better place
?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
So if you kill by way of religious intolerance, it is worse that to kill for lust for power?
The dead are just as dead.
As interesting as a side bar on religion vs other methodologies for going to war can be.....perhaps its time we shifted the focus back to the topic. Personally, I don't believe its all that nessesary for every single thread on theological topics to be turned into a bully pulpit / soap box for religion bashing.
Especially when it continues to be derogatory in nature despite professed efforts to the contrary.
That topic being if I recall answering the following paraphrased questions:
Who presented the idea of hell and why?
Does hell exist?
Does there have to be a hell to make us behave?
What is good behaviour?
What role does the concept of hell or no hell play in our being capeable of living with injustice in this life?
I can't say who first presented it, but I would wager that the reason was to frighten people into behaving themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
There's certainly no evidence for it. But you can never prove a negative, so the best we can say is, probably not.Quote:
Does hell exist?
I certainly don't need it, but if that's all that keeps someone from going out and raping or killing people, then by all means let them keep believing.Quote:
Does there have to be a hell to make us behave?
Good behavior is treating others with the same courtesy and respect with which you would like to be treated.Quote:
What is good behaviour?
Again, I don't think hell has anything to do with it. We should fight injustice regardless. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)Quote:
What role does the concept of hell or no hell play in our being capeable of living with injustice in this life?
As per denuseri's request, I've started a new thread. I welcome any points of view. Just keep it civil, please.