Freedom of Religion ... unless that is; you are a Muslim.

I'm sorry, but I have a bit of a problem with the quote; "Muslims aren't allowed religious freedom."
That is very cut and dried. I find it hard to believe that talk radio actually said that without some qualifications.

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Originally Posted by Lateques

Good to know tantric. I've seen other sites where it was posted by known political spinmeisters. It was just on this one, I realized I was seeing a pattern. No insult intended. Regardless also, I've been hearing it on talk radio people saying the same lines of "Muslims aren't allowed religious freedom." So it's been kinda pervasive over the last 36 hours.

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You are too sharp to be wierd!!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Why thank you! That's one of the nicest compliments I've ever gotten here.

Of course, I'm actually trying for weird, but odd will do!

Thanks again.

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He can be as forceful as he wants but "religious freedom" and the "location of a house of worship" are not equivalent.
The building, and its location, is a civil matter, it is the use of the building afterward that is protected.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

According to the Associated Press:

After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks.

Obama said Saturday that he didn't comment on "the wisdom" of putting a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks — but rather was commenting on "the right" to build a mosque there.

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After a long protracted thought process and laborious typing I timed out again.

Then I screwed up and pressed the wrong keys and lost everything!

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Originally Posted by TantricSoul

Someone please explain to me how building a mosque near "ground zero" is insensitive, in a way that actually makes sense.

After all, the project under consideration isn't a Taliban HQ, or Al Queda training facility.

The people that initiated the attacks on September 11th used Islam as a cover for their own purposes. This is clearly so.

Holding a religion responsible for the actions of a few is disingenuous at best, if not purely ignorant.

What our country has done in Afghanistan and Iraq is called vengeance not justice.

"Christians are instructed by their "Holy Book" to good to others. Muslims are instructed by their "Holy Book" to do good to other Muslims.
Does anyone see a problem with this?"

Not at all ... the followers of both religions are simply human, and both texts are simply texts. I don't see many Christians following the instructions from their book either. They aren't called the "Ten Suggestions" ... and I do believe that "Thou shalt not murder" is one of them. And while this isn't a commandment, isn't "Love thy enemy" in there somewhere also?

Just saying ... yours is not better than theirs, nor is theirs better than yours. ( <<< meant universally not personally)

Respectfully,
Tantric

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Originally Posted by DuncanONeil

You are too sharp to be wierd!!

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On the contrary! Weird is NEVER dull.

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Originally Posted by Thorne

On the contrary! Weird is NEVER dull.

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Touche'

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Originally Posted by DuncanONeil

The issue is that the doers of good in the Muslim faith do not make a point of denouncing those that claim to be of the faith are doing wrong. Nor are there any calls for them to cease their "evil" ways.

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Like I said, Muslims have been saying it for a while, if no one is there to announce that the hundreds of mosques around North America are denouncing this, how are you going to know?

Ideally, what would you have Muslims do? So far, from my own personal experience, I've seen Muslims imams denounce terrorism in their sermons whenever any of these events happen, I've seen millions raised to send to Muslim countries to improve education in order to stop kids being sent to these extremist camps and graduate in suicide bombing, I've participated in muslim groups that raise money for local programs, giving food to poor (of any faith/or no faith at all). And that's just me. I find it a little insulting you've stated that the doers of good do not make it a point of denouncing the evil, when you don't even know the whole truth. It's become a huge point of frustration among Muslims that nothing is good enough. At what point will it be acceptable for you? Should the Muslims of North America march up the National Mall and state they don't like what's being done in their name, all in the name of publicity, or would you rather them actually doing something worthwhile, contributing to their communities, and abroad to slow and eventually stop the atrocities done in the name of Islam.

Seeing what people have to say about Muslims, when I am one myself is disheartening. Seeing that they are people like you who think that all my attempts to be a part of this society, being fair and kind (to the best of my abilities) still isn't good enough, and that people still associate me with the murderers who knocked down those towers is downright low. Hearing prominent politicians like Newt saying that the mosque's name (Cordoba) is a covert method of Muslims to claim victory, while no other politican has the decency to correct him or call him out on his slander depresses me.

As much as I disagree with this point about it being insensitive, I do respect those who have those opinions. What I find disgusting is the method employed to eliminate the plans for this mosque. The imam of the mosque who is the imam that the west wants, moderate, with a wife who has a voice as vocal as his, has been labelled as a terrorist supporter, the funds for the mosque has come into question (no one would ask that of a YMCA or a Jewish community centre, but a Muslim one is fair game?).

I have to go with Lion on this one. The main stream media does tend to ignore those Muslims who aren't shooting guns in the air and threatening death to America. And after seeing a news report on the cultural center (NOT a mosque) which they want to build, I think the right wing in this country is creating a tempest in a teapot.

Working from memory, according to Keith Olberman, the site for the building is technically two blocks from one corner of the WTC property, but is at least four blocks from the memorial. Once built, the center will contain sports facilities, including basketball courts, meeting rooms and two prayer rooms, as opposed to an area for religious services. The building site does not have a line of sight to the WTC sight, nor would the building be visible from the WTC. And most importantly, there is already a smaller Muslim cultural center right across the street from the WTC memorial, which has been there since before the towers were built, and which has caused absolutely no problems in all these years.

Basically, the right wing nuts are protesting because American Muslims have the audacity to want to build a Muslim center within 'X' distance of the WTC. If they decided to move it further away, I have no doubt that the value of 'X' would change accordingly. Basically, they are being dicks and stirring people up for no reason at all.

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Originally Posted by Lion

Like I said, Muslims have been saying it for a while, if no one is there to announce that the hundreds of mosques around North America are denouncing this, how are you going to know?

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Doing it in the Mosque is preaching to the choir. That does nothing to tell the rest of the community what is going on!

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Originally Posted by Thorne

Basically, the right wing nuts are protesting because American Muslims have the audacity to want to build a Muslim center within 'X' distance of the WTC. If they decided to move it further away, I have no doubt that the value of 'X' would change accordingly. Basically, they are being dicks and stirring people up for no reason at all.

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What about the Greek Orthodox church that was within the footprint of the WTC the is apparently being prevented from rebuilding on its old site?

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Originally Posted by DuncanONeil

What about the Greek Orthodox church that was within the footprint of the WTC the is apparently being prevented from rebuilding on its old site?

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What does that have to do with a Mosque which will not even have line of sight with ground zero? The two are completely different. If the Greek Orthodox church were being built where they want to build this Mosque, do you think there would be any protests against it?

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Originally Posted by Thorne

What does that have to do with a Mosque which will not even have line of sight with ground zero? The two are completely different. If the Greek Orthodox church were being built where they want to build this Mosque, do you think there would be any protests against it?

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The Greek church wants its old location back and is apparently being denied that, while at the same time all this hoofarah about the mosque. It's like one has more rights than the other!

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Originally Posted by DuncanONeil

The Greek church wants its old location back and is apparently being denied that, while at the same time all this hoofarah about the mosque. It's like one has more rights than the other!

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I'm not certain about this, but there was a Muslim Center/Mosque right across the street from the two towers. It was damaged during 9/11, and their lease isn't being renewed. I believe that's why they want to build where they're trying to build.

But the difference is that the Greek Church wants to build (rebuild) AT ground zero. The mosque is 2-4 blocks away. There is a big difference.

The problem is nicely summed up as such:
"we can't legally stop people from obeying the law"

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Originally Posted by tedteague

The problem is nicely summed up as such:
"we can't legally stop people from obeying the law"

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Sure you can! Just change the law.