Red flags for those new to the lifestyle

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Originally Posted by thir

I think first stage is to post such a red-flag list, stage two is to discuss it. It migh make many things clearer.

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I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.

If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better ;)

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Originally Posted by lucy

I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.

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Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.

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If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better ;)

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I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)

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Originally Posted by thir

Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.

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The misunderstanding wasn't about this list.

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Originally Posted by thir

I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)

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It's what I have experienced, once I (or we, rather) went out to the scene. Basically the people at the munches here are, well, to be honest, superboring. Also, there doesn't seem to be anybody below the age of 60 attending such a munch. I don't have a problem with older people, but sometimes it would be nice to discuss things with someone who's in about the same place in life as I am.
The parties, well, they were public ones. And badly managed, too. Still, if I hadn't known that they can be different, too, I would have thought that this is what a kink party has to be like. In the meantime we met a couple of good people who we occasionally see at private events. So, no more need to go to public parties and become wank fodder.

My biggest problem with this list: Methinks that people who are likely to make a bad choice are also very very very likely to jump in without thinking or gathering knowledge first. I.e., they will see this list only when it's too late.
Also, it is one more step for people to not take responsibility for themselves.
Plus, it will be misunderstood. There will be people ticking off the numbers on the list and they will forget to use for themselves a little bit more.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.

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Sometimes, when I look at the personals here, my skin begins to crawl and cold shivers run up and down my spine. Maybe moderating them wouldn't be such a bad idea, too.

hello A/all,
thank you Stone for starting this thread. While i have enjoyed and am slightly frustrated by this thread.
I think the intention of this thread was to help point out possible safety concerns for submissives/Dom/mes.
i am slightly frustrated instead of taking the list at face value, i see peeps getting offended or saying well in certain circumstances its not a real safety concern.
I.E: the very idea that ooh hes only jealous on the 3rd tuesday of the month, so its okay. Or the rationale that a subbie should not have personal friends outside the realm of a dom's control. Or ask to speak with previous submissive since they should just take everything on blind faith because they are told to.
I try to look at the intent when i read anything. the intent i see is one of trying to point out a way to follow your desires, without experiencing unnecessary pain. And while i am glad we can all express ourselves here. I think that rationalizing abusive behavoir instead of trying to protect the new person from predators is not the best use of our knowledge as a community.

Yep, this is not a comperhenshive list of all possible red flags that list would be alot longer but these are all very valid ones. As I said before someone that has one or 2 of these isnt a big deal but even with that said doesnt mean to not take a closer look. The most amusing thing I've seen so far is someone pop up a "red flag" by saying it's not a red flag. I myself pop up one red flag on this list.....now everyone can wonder which one......but people are still going to want to debate this list and say this or that, it is a good list and I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

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I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

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This is a very excellent point, especially when the points listed are taken as a pattern, rather than individual incidents. If one person has a few online accounts because they're not "out" that is a very different thing say, than one person habitually creating profiles at one website over an extended period of time and using them to misrepresent themselves. A P/person who loses their temper over a bad day (or PMS, as mentioned ;) haha) is a very different creature than someone who exhibits consistent emotional lability or consistently loses their temper over stimuli that don't line up with the response given. These are all things that can be major "red flags" in any relationship, kink or otherwise. I would even hesitate to remain in a casual vanilla friendship with someone that exhibited a pattern of some of these behaviors.

Yes, late to the thread. But, I did just join, and thought this was highly relevant to comment on.

•Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to. Gets angry when you ask for references or ask around about them.
•Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it.
•Has bad relationships with most or all of their family members.

Guess everyone should just red flag me then. I don't belong to the "community" nor do I have any desire to do so. I also don't feel a need to go around asking others about someone. It's not a relationship by committee.
And if you knew my family, you'd had bad or no relationship with them either. Not everyone came from the Cleaver family.

Also, he monitors my activities online and I certainly have no problem with that.
I also know a woman whose master isolated her from friends and family when they first got together because he didn't want her to be distracted from their relationship. I'm sure she'd be tickled pink to know that should've been a red flag for her twenty odd years and five kids ago.

I too have poor relationships with my biological family (no Cleavers here either) but I do have other people close to me in my life, despite the fact that by nature I'm kind of a spiky and cantankerous asshole. "Family" can include a wide variety of definitions. I don't think the list is meant to be prescriptive, simply things to be aware of. And no offense intended, but you do belong to this community, and have important information to contribute here, for the purposes of discussion or elucidation, or you'd not have posted, yes?

Here we go again people picking one two three of them and saying OMG SERIAL KILLER RUN RUN RUN, people who tend to be dangerous have alot of these not just 1 2 or 3 of them, but like I have repeted over and over the more that get checked off the closer of a look one should take.....

thats pretty much the point of any list like this.. everybodys different anyway.. i bet any person on here could check of 1 or 2 of these for themselves.. maybe 3-4.. if it starts going down the list.. and theres more red flags than not.. maybe stop and think for a minute about whats going on..

kinda common sense.

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

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Originally Posted by Avispet

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

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Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

The thread reads "new to the life style". With many - if not most - new experiences and/or relationships, the novelty tends to cloud the influence of "common sense". As Sam Clemmons (Mark Twain to the uninformed) penned a few decades ago - "Sense ain't common". If it were, everyone would have it. Actually, sense is far from common. So, without a plethora of common sense and a clouded intelligence due to the novelty, the check list has great merit. As I said early on, if you understand the concept of a sociopath, this list is unnecessary. But the actuality is that all too many people live on cruise control and forget that there ARE sociopaths out there. The TV show "Criminal Minds" is not just fabrication. It is a reflection. Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines. Having once been in the News industry and seeing the result firsthand, I can freaking guarantee that some of those who don't stop and consider these consequences of ignoring this will in fact become a: headlines and b: casualties.

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Originally Posted by Avispet

"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

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A great deal of the time lust leads people to do stupid things.

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Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines.

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Unfortunately, this is a very scary potential reality.

On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

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Bestiality is a different thread! :;)

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Originally Posted by VaAugusta

On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

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I certainly hope you set up a safe call beforehand.

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Originally Posted by thir

Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

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So, when starting to explore d/s, somehow people suddenly forget everything they've ever done before? People who supposedly have been getting to know other people, dating, having relationships for years up until this point without benefit of a list.

With varying degrees of success... Arguably, if one has their wits around them and is practicing common sense, a "warning list" is uneccesary. And if that were consistently the case, no one would feel the need to say, "hm, newer or inexperienced folks seem to have problems with xyz. How about we make a list of xyz just in case?" No list can be a perfect reflection of reality, nor apply universally. I think it's simply descriptive, rather than prescriptive, if it doesn't apply, then it doesn't. I don't think it was posted as a condemnation of anyone, just as a selection of potentially problematic behaviors, with the intent of benefitting others who might not be aware of them.

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Originally Posted by Stone

Shakeshead....People its not a list where you check one box and go oh shit run away run away run away...one thing on this list most likely will amount to nothing but if said person has a check in every box...you better run like hell...mostly this is just warning signs you start seeing these behaviors and hopefully this list will trigger in you mind and make you go..maybe i should take a second look...

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Stone, I think this is superb and I am glad you posted it. I think is good advice for any relationship, not just D/s. But instead of running like hell, can I borrow your chainsaw?

Reading the red flags could also be taken into non bdsm life, I thinik with a bit of editing it could apply toany type of abusive relationship and be posted on a site for help with escaping anabusive relationship and for those not too sire if they are in an abusive relationship and may save someone out there as well.

i know ive seen similar lists posted on other relationship forums.. not as much reference to bdsm community.. but just community in general.. probably wouldnt show up in a bunch of places if it was totally w/out value..

yes these warning signs apply to any and all relationships bdsm or nilla, I have said before I wish I had had such a list back in my nilla days would have avoided some ugliness

As far as suicidal thoughts go, I feel that if a Master is that mentally unstable, the playing should stop. I had a very close friend that showed a lot of signs on this red flag list, including suicide, and felt that had I of submitted to him I would have been used as a punching bag (if you will). On a friendship level I was willing to help but on a Master/slave level I could not allow it. Love this post by the way. Very helpful :)

thanks for the post

What a gr8 post!! i wish i found this the day i loggon for the first time. Really great advice! and spoke like someone that has experienced a lot. thank for the share :-)

very informative and nicely formatted !!

Stone, thanks for putting this out there for the community to kick around. It's such an important topic to discuss and the highly charged responses reflect that very fact. I think if the list had feelings it was be squeeling "Thank you sir/madam, may I have another."

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Originally Posted by Stone

Shakeshead....People its not a list where you check one box and go oh shit run away run away run away...one thing on this list most likely will amount to nothing but if said person has a check in every box...you better run like hell...mostly this is just warning signs you start seeing these behaviors and hopefully this list will trigger in you mind and make you go..maybe i should take a second look...

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I think I can agree with this, it is logical that one or maybe two of many of these alone are just harmless coincidences...in most cases, two could also be a terrible sign.

I do think however that there are some in here that alone would warrant extreme caution even alone. Such as "•Tries to separate you from your friends, family or BDSM community." You shouldn't be isolated, that could be very dangerous.

This is a great list to have out there, especially on a forum like this. It's unfortunate but the public image of BDSM has a lot of appeal for assholes and people with no self esteem. It sometimes seems like people think a good Dom should be cruel and make their sub miserable. I really think a good Dom should be a good person, someone who is actually worth devoting yourself to. Your red flag list is particularly important for new subs to read, to help them avoid getting involved with people who are only going to hurt them and can't be trusted. I know that is a big worry of mine as I'm starting to look for a real life Domme. I have pretty good gut instincts, but I do worry that in my excitement over meeting someone I might do something stupid.

I am new here and wanted to comment even if this is an old thread- I am not nor have ever been part of the of the bdsm scene (though have always had the desire to experience it). I am proud I have reached out this much as just registering for this site has me nervous. What I wanted to say is my first real relationship (meaning first sex) was with someone that possessed probably 12 or 13 of these traits on the list and that excludes the ones strictly applicable to bdsm. Of course I was inexperience and very young but I do remember my friends warning me off of the relationship and my reply being "I know, he is very intense but don't worry we are just dating -I'm not going to marry the guy", well guess what- I married the guy. I don't really know how it happened but I remember my back sliding down the wall as I cried while I was being told we were getting married or the relationship was over as he insisted I be with him all the way or not at all; very romantic wouldn't you say? Anyway, that was a very long time ago and the point of all this is that sociopaths are not only cunning at mind games but their choice of who to entrap is usually someone they sense would be pliable, ergo submissive. Some of us have learned the hardway and It makes it that much harder to step off the ledge when on the outside we have built a shell that gives the message we are the farthest from wanting to be dominated but on the inside in secret has remained a unmet need.

Hi and welcome to the site, okay! You should be proud to be reaching out and sharing this sort of thing. I agree with your point about having that shell of being indomitable (so to speak) but really desiring it at the same time. I'm sorry for your terrible experiences, but it sounds like you're coming to terms with who and what he really is, and what you're not interested in having. Enjoy your time here!

Great thread, glad to see people looking at it too.

Great Post! Hope it helps those who might need it.

To a proverbial "t", red flags for vanilla relationships, too.. minus all depravity, of course..

Thank you! I'm new to the life, and starting to explore being a dom....so far, many of the subs I've talked to have encountered "doms" displaying several of the traits red flagged, so I think it's good to have this up and distribute the info as widely as possible. As Abraham Lincoln said, whatever you are, be good at it.

most of the above just seem to be red flags for a general bad partner (except for the obvious d/s mentions)

I come back to this thread often when speaking to newer members of the Library. I read this again last night and thought it needed to be mentioned again...
So.....read it use your common sense and be safe.....

In my everyday life there were many of the traits that would have had me avoiding a person in general, But when i was new to the lifestyle it seemed the common sense of the facts or rather traits were something I ignored , I dont mknow why but I did and it did land me with a person as such .

Thank you Stone for posting it , is a reminder of how a character is a character trait weather in bdsm or vanilla .I surly would have moved slowly if I would have read something as such early on in entering this / our lifestyle and been much more level headed.

And yes subs as well can have the issues , I myself fall under only one but Im working on it , the falling to fast :) just a lover here ..