Jealousy

dear propertyofslaveheavan....

i wish i could give you an articulated sophisticated answer like the kinksters before me, but im no different to you..
i have no advice to give on how to control or rein it in..... i am insanely possessive and jealous and protective ~ with out fail i feel this way with every one i love.
i remember brining my newborn baby home for the first time, and my best friend taking him and making stupid gurgling sounds to MY baby, i remember looking down seeing my fist clutch tight and feeling utter rage inside.

what i do know is this: jealousy springs from insecurity and doubting one self, and no amount of self-control or effort on your part will take that away from You...the ONLY person that can settle this for you, is Your Master...His love His reassurance of who and what you are to Him and Him proving His character to you...and You having enough faith in yourself and Him...to believe it.

good luck!

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Originally Posted by propertyofslavehaven

Me and my Master have been going through bad times with the jealousy issue for about a year. We never gave up on trying to find better ways to deal with my jealousy... My sickness is gone. (jealousy)

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Well done! Far too few people can get there.

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We made a breakthrough. I learned that jealousy for me is insecurties about myself and irrational thoughts that i started to believe. Nothing Master could say would help me overcome my fears and my way of thinking. I couldnt see what was really happening. All i thought was that he was going to find someone better than me and the more i became jealous and showed myself badly, the more i knew that was true. I was making my irrational thoughts come true.

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Well seen. Insecurity - fear of loss - is nine tenths of what is called jealousy, and yes, it becomes a self fulfilling fear. My mother once observed that when someone fears they aren't loved, they respond by acting as unlovable as possible.

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People who are jealous are insecure and they need to trust the other person.

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You're only halfway there: they also have to trust THEMSELVES. Trust that they are worth loving, trust that they are loved, trust that they are strong enough to survive if their worst fears come true and they lose that love.

My first (vanilla) love never loved me the way I loved her; she was fond of me, but I was just one of a lot of men in her life, and she never pretended differently. In some ways, that gave me a head start in giving up jealousy: there was no point being afraid of losing what I didn't have. I learnt to live with her other loves because it was either that or give her up. I learnt to be glad that there were other people who could make her happy when I wasn't there. Later, when I was in the poly scene (with a later partner) and a man asked me why I wasn't jealous, I said "You're doing good things for the woman I love. How could I mind that?"

I wrote once in another forum: "It is a conventional sign of love to say you couldn't live without someone, but there are nasty implications behind the flattery: that you stay with them because you've no choice, and they'd better stay with you or they'll have you on their conscience. More loving is to say 'I could leave if I chose, but I stay with you because I love you.'"

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Or as part of a quite natural biological response; a response that varies depending upon the individuals, how much or how little that response is hardwired etc and situational modifiers involved. It also can be impossible to control in some circumstances and in essence be considered quite reasonable behavior for some people to exhibit and in effect be just as "ok" as not being jealous?

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We seem to be the only primates with a pair-bonding urge. It's been argued that this is due to the greatly extended dependency of human infants: that doesn't stand up well when you consider that we also show signs of being adapted to co-operative child rearing (such as the ability of human females to lactate without pregnancy if they nurse someone else's baby for long enough,) but it might explain why a pairing that feels eternal when it starts can fade away after a few years, when an infant might be big enough not to need a couple's care.

But if it's a real instinct, it must have been overlaid on the much older primate promiscuity. And as so often happens when you add a software patch over an existing program, and launch it without enough debugging, the two sometimes interact in bizarre ways and sometimes crash completely.

There are primates that are more monogamous than humans. The cotton topped tamarin, for one.

he Cotton-top Tamarins have a monogamous breeding system and live in groups ranging from 1-19 individuals. However, the most common group sizes are from 3-9 individuals. These groups consist of a dominant mated pair, their young of the year, and a few subordinate or young animals of both sexes. These subordinate members tend to form small groups and migrate in and out of the home range of the main group. ....Males put forth more effort in caring for young than the females. The father assists at birth and carries the young all of the time exept when the mother is feeding.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Or as part of a quite natural biological response; a response that varies depending upon the individuals, how much or how little that response is hardwired etc and situational modifiers involved. It also can be impossible to control in some circumstances and in essence be considered quite reasonable behavior for some people to exhibit and in effect be just as "ok" as not being jealous?

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IMO all feelings are natural. We have them, they are our feelings, we are not responsible for those, but we are responsible for our actions. Jealousy is a legitimate feeling, and should be respected as such. But it causes so many problems, and is so painful, I find it very useful to have a good thread about it. Often I think it is like fear of bereavement, but as opposed to actually loosing someone- which, however painful, you do get over someday - it does not go away! It just goes on and on, if you cannot find a way to deal with it. Yes, definitly something to be taken seriously and to work with.

Impossible to control? Do you mean as in being sad, or yelling, or as in killing your partner so no one else can have her/him? I think all violent feelings are hard to control, but with this as with others - hate, fear etc - we are asked to control them. Jealousy is just one other, if you see what I mean. I do not think it should 'rate' as being more understandable if you commit violence out of jealousy, than if you do it out of hate. In fact, violence out of jealousy is, to me, very much like hate. It certainly isn't love - not to me! Though this might be a very good point to discuss!

Reasonable behaviour? Again, I am not quite sure what you are thinking of, except that it is a feeling we get often, sometimes for realistic reasons, sometimes for our own inner reasons. I think we should be 'allowed' to show our feelings, and not have some of them put in a box called 'unacceptable'. They are there, they are our feelings and part of us, we should not be reduced to censorship or self-censorship! But on the other hand I do not think it should be cultivated or encouraged, the way the mono-culture often do. I think these problems are much better handled if treated like problems, not moral questions.

All I mean thir is that it is what it is, if one is jealous it's not right to say oh well too bad deal with it cause the jealous one must be at fault.

In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.

"Well seen. Insecurity - fear of loss - is nine tenths of what is called jealousy, and yes, it becomes a self fulfilling fear. My mother once observed that when someone fears they aren't loved, they respond by acting as unlovable as possible."

I disagree. Jealousy is a header with many emotions behind it. Insecurity is one, possesiveness is just as common, so is envy, realistic fear, and deprivement.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

All I mean thir is that it is what it is, if one is jealous it's not right to say oh well too bad deal with it cause the jealous one must be at fault.

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Quite. That was what I meant.

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In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.

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Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?

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Originally Posted by thir

Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?

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Not to sidetrack but.... No. If hate generated fear or rage perhaps. But real "hate crimes" aren't crimes of passion. That kind of hate is a learned response and very little true emotion goes into them. (IMO)

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Originally Posted by denuseri

In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.

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Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.

On the other hand, in a human context it does make sense in terms of a collective need to control. In the same way that rapists are the allies of men who want to keep women clinging to them for protection, these jealousy-berserkers are the allies of all the men who want to be sure their partner daren't leave.

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Originally Posted by ksst

There are primates that are more monogamous than humans. The cotton topped tamarin, for one.

....Males put forth more effort in caring for young than the females. The father assists at birth and carries the young all of the time exept when the mother is feeding.

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OK, I didn't know that. Interesting. Any other examples worth sharing?

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Originally Posted by thir

Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?

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Of course not that would be just silly.

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Originally Posted by leo9

Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.

Not where I am from...its more likened to killing the person who one thinks just killed their loved one, or killing a cheating spouse on the spot when caught in the actual act, and never ever involves killing children...in fact its often legally considered a far lesser charge or completely justified or forgivable.

Animals like male lions kill the young they think doesn't belong to them all the time and amongst wolves only the mated alpha pair is allowed to actually mate...get caught humping in the pack outside that arrangement and you will be driven off or killed. The textbook cases with a chimps attempting to kill and or harm rivals in numerous situations are too many to document here but happen all the time ask any primateolegist about how violent our cousins in the wild can be it's no far stretch I am proposing to the forum here.

On the other hand, in a human context it does make sense in terms of a collective need to control. In the same way that rapists are the allies of men who want to keep women clinging to them for protection, these jealousy-berserkers are the allies of all the men who want to be sure their partner daren't leave.

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Understanding how such things function in our animal friends provides valuable insight at times in understanding ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

Not to sidetrack but.... No. If hate generated fear or rage perhaps. But real "hate crimes" aren't crimes of passion. That kind of hate is a learned response and very little true emotion goes into them. (IMO)

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I beg to disagree - hate crimes are some of the most emotional there are, and they do not get any less from being taught to hate from early years.

In the same way, if we are taught that jealousy crimes are normal and understandable, there will be more of them.

There is to me a big difference between understanding and accepting jealousy, and accepting crimes because of jealousy.

Sorry, that was from me, thir.

I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.

Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.

I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?

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Originally Posted by ksst

I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.

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I do not know enough about animals to know if they can be jealous in the human sense of that word. But the situations we were taking about concerns humans killing their own children, not someone elses'.
Re denuseri: I cannot know how things go in your area, but in other parts of US, in DK, and here in UK there are indeed examples of parents killing their children along with a spouse who wanted to leave. In fact, we had one tragic example right in our own street where we live, and this is actually a quite calm and peaceful neighbour hood normally.

I personally think that acceptance of jealousy violence is absolutely wrong - murder is murder, whether or not it involves adults or children, or both. I would guess that we all have at least one area where we think murder is justified - maybe revenge, racism, gays, infedelity, people who harm helpless others, or whatever. But the law is no killing, and to prevent everything from becoming hopeless, we must, as I see it, condemn murder - always.

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Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.

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I think so too, we may think that this or other reaction comes from animal life, but does it? And if it does, does that make it ok?
Killing is, to me, about seeing other people as your possession. But we do not own each other, at least not normally. And, in cases where there is an ownership and M/s relationship, does that mean that it is ok for the Master to kill an unfaithful slave?

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I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?

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I do not think that jealousy is ever apppropriate, as such, any more than there are situations where you aught to be happy, or angry, or sad, or whatever. But as for not being jealousy when many others might be, be happy that you are not - you escaped a very painful feeling!
As for what it means - probably that you are a very whole and balanced human being.

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Originally Posted by ksst

I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.

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I do not know enough about animals to know if they can be jealous in the human sense of that word. But the situations we were taking about concerns humans killing their own children, not someone elses'.
Re denuseri: I cannot know how things go in your area, but in other parts of US, in DK, and here in UK there are indeed examples of parents killing their children along with a spouse who wanted to leave. In fact, we had one tragic example right in our own street where we live, and this is actually a quite calm and peaceful neighbour hood normally.

I personally think that acceptance of jealousy violence is absolutely wrong - murder is murder, whether or not it involves adults or children, or both. I would guess that we all have at least one area where we think murder is justified - maybe revenge, racism, gays, infedelity, people who harm helpless others, or whatever. But the law is no killing, and to prevent everything from becoming hopeless, we must, as I see it, condemn murder - always.

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Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.

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I think so too, we may think that this or other reaction comes from animal life, but does it? And if it does, does that make it ok?
Killing is, to me, about seeing other people as your possession. But we do not own each other, at least not normally. And, in cases where there is an ownership and M/s relationship, does that mean that it is ok for the Master to kill an unfaithful slave?

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I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?

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I do not think that jealousy is ever apppropriate, as such, any more than there are situations where you aught to be happy, or angry, or sad, or whatever. But as for not being jealousy when many others might be, be happy that you are not - you escaped a very painful feeling!
As for what it means - probably that you are a very whole and balanced human being.

sorry - I repeated my own post.

I think it would be useful to discuss jealousy in more general terms. Here are cuts from an article:


UNMASKING THE GREEN-EYED MONSTER:

By Kathy Labriola, Counselor/Nurse

"Despite how enlightened we think we are, most of us experience jealousy if our spouse or lover has a sexual relationship with someone else."

"We tend to think of jealousy as a single emotion, but actually it is a whole bundle of feelings that tend to get lumped together. Jealousy can manifest as anger, fear, hurt, betrayal, anxiety, agitation, sadness, paranoia, depression, loneliness, envy, coveting, feeling powerless, feeling inadequate, feeling excluded. It often helps to identify what is the exact mix of feelings you experience when you feel jealous. What is the primary emotion you feel when you are jealous? Demystifying the exact components of your jealousy can be a giant step towards getting a grip on things and resolving the problem. Is it always the same for you or does the mix change from time to time depending on circumstances? "

"It is crucial to understand what jealousy is and what it is about. Jealousy is about fear--fear of the unknown and of change, fear of losing power or control in a relationship, fear of scarcity and of loss, and fear of abandonment. It is a reflection of our own insecurity about our worthiness, anxiety about being adequate as a lover, and doubts about our desirability."

"For every jealous feeling there is an emotion behind the jealousy that is much more significant than the jealousy itself. Behind jealousy there is an unmet need or a deep fear that our needs will not be met. Recognizing those fears and unmet needs is the key to unmasking jealousy and taking away its power. Jealousy is just the finger pointing at the fears and needs we are afraid to face. When jealousy kicks in, it is the ancient reptilian part of our brain going into a "fight or flight" response because we feel that our very survival is threatened. When you feel jealous, ask yourself, "What is it that I am really afraid of? What do I need to make this situation safe for me?" "What is the worst thing that could happen and how likely is that to happen?"

http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/P.../jealousy.html

"We're not encouraged to even consider that we can focus on overcoming jealousy, and the only control we have is over our partner's actions. As a result, by taking away the triggers, we never get the opportunity to explore our inner insecurities and experience the wonderful growth that it can provide."

http://www.serolynne.com/poly_jealousy.htm

"Jealousy is not the problem; jealousy is the SYMPTOM of the problem."

"The problems are magnified even more if you try not to let your fears and your feelings show. One key to making the relationship work is to talk about your fears, openly and immediately, EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY'RE IRRATIONAL. Often, naming your fears, bringing them into the light, deprives them of their power."

"Since jealousy usually has its roots in some other emotion, such as fear of loss or feelings of rejection or insecurity or whatever, then often the only way to cope with the jealousy is to deal with the underlying emotions. If you find that your jealousy is rooted in fear, for example, the next step is to explore why you are afraid, and what you are afraid of, and if there's anything you can do to allay that fear. Confronting the jealousy head-on without addressing the things that lie beneath it is often an exercise in frustration."

http://www.morethantwo.com/jealousytheory.html



"Many different people feel jealous from time to time. Jealousy is easy to deal with, once you understand what it's teaching you. Here are some pointers on working through your emotions and feelings of jealousy."

http://www.wikihow.com/Handle-Jealousy

Hope some of this can help.

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Originally Posted by propertyofslavehaven

Has anyone had or have jealousy problems in thier relationship and how did they get passed it?

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I haven't had a problem with jealousy because Master is very strictly monogamous. However, he has had problems with jealousy because I'm...more of a free spirit. The solution was to change certain behaviors by correcting the way I think. It's a process.

You should probably read "The Ethical Slut."

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Originally Posted by leo9

I beg to disagree - hate crimes are some of the most emotional there are, and they do not get any less from being taught to hate from early years.

In the same way, if we are taught that jealousy crimes are normal and understandable, there will be more of them.

There is to me a big difference between understanding and accepting jealousy, and accepting crimes because of jealousy.

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We may have a definition problem between English and American usage.

I read (and answered the original question) with the assumption that "hate crime" is a crime commited specifically against someone because of their religion or ethnicity. Yes, because one group "hates" another, but I'd say that was based strictly on being taught ones prejudice and nothing to do with any real emotional basis of the type that occurs with jealousy or a crime of passion.

Semantics. I'm not happy with my definition using hate as part of the explanation.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

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Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.

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Not where I am from...its more likened to killing the person who one thinks just killed their loved one, or killing a cheating spouse on the spot when caught in the actual act, and never ever involves killing children...in fact its often legally considered a far lesser charge or completely justified or forgivable.

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Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I had the impression from the news that it happened in the US as well. As may be, in this country we have had a distressing number of cases where someone has reacted to his (it's invariably a man) partner leaving, or threatening to leave, by killing her and their children. (One was literally just down the road from our house.) That is, to make it perfectly clear, the children of himself and the departing spouse. I repeat, I doubt very much whether you will find any non-human parallel to such counter-evolutionary behaviour.

You'd be surprised what animals under extreme stress will do. And yes, I have heard of things equally awful or more from them.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

We may have a definition problem between English and American usage.

I read (and answered the original question) with the assumption that "hate crime" is a crime commited specifically against someone because of their religion or ethnicity. Yes, because one group "hates" another, but I'd say that was based strictly on being taught ones prejudice and nothing to do with any real emotional basis of the type that occurs with jealousy or a crime of passion.

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I am not sure where the problem lies, exactly? I too see hate crimes as traditionally the ones where groups hate other groups for whatever reason. But other crimes can be committed because of hate of a more 'personal' nature, if such an expression may be used. I do not think it is really the right one, but cannot think of any other.

To me, the expression 'a crime of passion' is simply used to gloss over murders out if jealousy or obsessive feelings of ownership. To me, the socalled 'passion' is an enraged feeling that someone is getting away from them. It cannot be grief, I do not think you kill out of grief, and it certainly cannot be out of love. The use of that word, love, is, again to me, a gross abuse of what that word means. Putting in connectin with taking someone's life is - gross..

If you love someone, again according to my world view of course, you want them happy. You do not want them dead.

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Semantics. I'm not happy with my definition using hate as part of the explanation.

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I see. Howver, to me the unhappiness comes with using 'love' as an excuse for murder.

I saw an article with this theme which I found interesting:

What is it about jealousy that historically and even nowadays so many find is an acceptable excuse for murder?

'Crime of passion' is no defence

Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
The Observer, Sunday 19 January 2003 02.22 GMT


TheFreeDictionary
"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"




'Crime of passion' is no defence"

Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
The Observer, Sunday 19 January 2003 02.22 GMT
Article history

"Husbands who claim their partner's nagging or infidelity drove them to kill will face much tougher sentences under a government shake-up of so-called 'crimes of passion'.

Ministers are secretly reviewing the defence of provocation, which has its origins in the bygone tradition of men fighting duels, under which a defendant can evade a murder charge by arguing that their victim did or said something that made them lose control.

Ministers argue that it reflects a medieval view of marriage, in which a man whose honour is insulted by a domineering or unfaithful wife is entitled to fatal revenge rather than a divorce. It also encourages defendants to blacken the victim's name in court, painting her as a bad wife.

The review will prompt impassioned debate over modern relationships, with critics likely to argue that men instinctively respond differently than women to infidelity and that 'feminising' the law is unfair.

'This defence institutionalises the blaming of the victim - "I killed her, but it was all her fault" - and we say we are going to put the victim at the heart of the crim inal justice system,' said a Whitehall source."

read more:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...nsandprobation

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Originally Posted by thir

To me, the expression 'a crime of passion' is simply used to gloss over murders out if jealousy or obsessive feelings of ownership. To me, the socalled 'passion' is an enraged feeling that someone is getting away from them. It cannot be grief, I do not think you kill out of grief, and it certainly cannot be out of love. The use of that word, love, is, again to me, a gross abuse of what that word means. Putting in connectin with taking someone's life is - gross..

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One of the reasons modern lawmakers are unhappy with the concept is that, historically, it has almost exclusively been a man's defence. I don't have statistics for this, but I do have folklore! In the best known ballad of a woman's "crime of passion," Frankie and Johnny, every version that describes Frankie's eventual fate agrees that she is executed - even though, as the version I learnt in school says, the Judge and jury all accept that "He was her man, but he done her wrong."

Those who still defend the legal concept are reduced to arguing that men are inherently less stable than women and liable to temporary insanity in such situations - a claim which the same people would furiously reject if it were advanced by some female-supremacist. (I have a half-written novel, set in a matriarchial world, where the excuse for oppressing men is that their instinctive urge to violence makes them unfit for responsible positions in a civilised society. But I wasn't intending that seriously.)

Historically, the justification for this has been more to do with inheritance than jealousy. The expression "cuckold" for a man whose wife is unfaithful is derived from "cuckoo" because, originally, what was supposed to be enraging him was the possibility of another's eggs in his nest. (Yes, Denuseri, very sociobiological, though it was the inheritance of property and rank rather than of genes that concerned the people who coined the term.) But since the gender bias remains (for every "Fatal Attraction" female jealousy-killer, there are a jailfull of men whose last words to their ex were "If I can't have you, no-one can,") even though most people outside the 1% have little property to leave and little concern who gets it, I suspect that inheritance was always an excuse for urges that ran much older and deeper.

It's possessiveness, not the practical consequences of loss, that makes you destroy something rather than let someone else have it. If someone burns down a house rather than let it be repossessed, the law does not consider the fact that they felt desperately possessive to be a mitigating factor. So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.

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So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.

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A very good thing, IMO!

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Originally Posted by leo9

It's possessiveness, not the practical consequences of loss, that makes you destroy something rather than let someone else have it. If someone burns down a house rather than let it be repossessed, the law does not consider the fact that they felt desperately possessive to be a mitigating factor. So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.

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I do not know about reasonable - feelings have precious little to do with reason! I think the point here is that though you might feel possesssive about someone, you are not entitled to kill them.

Having said that, I wold like to speak of a situation of my own many years ago. My then husband found another woman, did not tell me about it, lied for two years, took her into our home for Godssake, in our own bed..It was never a home to me after that.

I had all the emotions people have in these situations - I could not take it in, had no idea, could not - would never ever in a million years have thought that he would lie to me, felt invaded, confused - the pain was killing me. I also felt angry. In fact, a white hot rage. I had fantasies - many fantasies - about getting a gun and shooting him right between the eyes..I had it many times, and it helped me.

It is hard to get a gun in Denmark, but I might have if I tried real hard. That would have made it premeditated. What would have happened if I had actually done it?

Let's see, I would have killed a man I actually still loved. I would have caused his parents and 4 sisters unspeakable pain, people who were completely innocent. I would have caused my own family pain. I would have spent the next 4-16 years in jail. I would not later have met my two other husbands, who I love more than anything in the world, and would not loose for worlds. And I would not have had my stepson.

I guess thats my point. You have a right to the feelings - to any feelings. But not the right to kill.

Sorry. I wasn't arguing the point I guess. I agree, you have the right to the feelings, though the ones based on generic hate are just plain ignoriant imo. But not the right to kill, (except in self defence, and you better be truly in jeopardy.) I just think the term hate crime (by the definition I gave) is a totally different kind of act than a crime of passion. (But I don't condone those being "justified" or de facto to be deserving of a lighter sentence.

I do believe in legitimate hate, I came to hate an individual for his behavior to me and my partner, and came to believe her to be in danger. I seriously considered killing him, had a plan should I become convinced of the danger, and was ready to act on it. I also expected to get caught, genius though I am ;) , and expected to pay for it. I chose to wait for that very reason. He ended up dying in prison for a murder for hire he committed. So I was right to fear, plan, and as it turned out, waiting.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

I just think the term hate crime (by the definition I gave) is a totally different kind of act than a crime of passion. (But I don't condone those being "justified" or de facto to be deserving of a lighter sentence.

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I guess I am trying to ask the question of whether a crime passionel is a crime of love, or a crime of hate?

Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?

Neither. It's a crime of greed and avarice. Jealousy is about fear of loss...

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?

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But that beggers the question of what made people go insane, and why it is so accepted - if it is? In fact, I have a mind to start another thread about love, seen from many angles.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

Neither. It's a crime of greed and avarice. Jealousy is about fear of loss...

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So I wonder if crime passionel is an extension of jealousy - I mean, that the actual loss makes people go crazy? Or is it a matter of frustrated possessivess - or what is it??

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?

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I think they now call it diminished capacity. It used to be an excuse to let off an avenging husband, condemn and incarcerate a jealous wife, and basically enforce the rights of male ownership of chattel wives... but those times have mostly passed. I don't know what a diminished capacity ruling begets you but at least it begets both genders more or less the same result.

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Originally Posted by thir

So I wonder if crime passionel is an extension of jealousy - I mean, that the actual loss makes people go crazy? Or is it a matter of frustrated possessivess - or what is it??

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It used to be, but that was the legal excuse and not, imo, a real happenstance.