[QUOTE=Kraven Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.[/QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth.
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[QUOTE=Kraven Laws tend not to fix problems.. just address symptoms and make lawyers more money.[/QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth.
As a member of the US Military I am truely appaled everytime I see someone burn the flag. For those of you that have not seen this think about what you will read in the following.
Charles M. Province, USMC
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.
While I do not like that people will burn the flag just remember one thing, that there are those of us out there that see it as more than just a fancy piece of cloth hanging from houses schools and other buildings. It represents the country we are out there risking our lives to defend and make safe for you.
The new law has absolutely nothing to do with press, admirers or fans, or accessing funerals, and everything to do with low life Fred Phelps and his ilk. Yes, "Reverend" Fred Phelps, also know as Fred 'I hate fags' Phelps, who feels that, no matter how offensive and distasteful it may be to others, it's his 'right' to protest and at gay and military funerals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daes
Thankfully, he never was attracting huge hordes of followers at funerals. He wasn't destroying any property. He wasn't getting in the way of anyone else, or even preventing anyone from conducting a funeral. In fact, the only thing he was doing was exercising his right to freedom of expression and his right to protest.
Hasn't Fred, effectively, been forced to 'have a little respect"?Quote:
Originally Posted by fantassy
I think it's trivialising the whole issue to compare a nation's flag with a woman's bra. I reiterate, a flag is a symbol of a nation and its people, a bra is not.
There's certainly an incredible irony is that, isn't there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piecingaze
What about protecting the family's privacy?
I think that law has its place, I just.. still dont understand what banning flag burning would be protecting.
That's a fair question, Daes, so I'll do my best to tell you what I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daes
Like I said, it's like many thing in life, you can do it, but maybe you just shouldn't. I feel it's a matter of respecting and protecting people's sense of what's civil and what are acceptable community standards. It has nothing to do with what's legal and everything to do with what's moral.
I've enjoyed reading the various posts/opinions here, and certainly I respect the differing points of view. I don't feel I have anything more to offer on this topic, so rather than boring you all to death with more reiterations, I think I need to agree to disagree. :)
Thank you, Daes, it's been a great thread. :)
If I am incorrect, please some one correct me, I remember a number of years back, I read that the United States Governemnt has specific speficiations for the US Flagg, it is so many inches tall, wide ect.
In addition to this, I was reminded by a scholar years ago, that unless a flag or flags or that very specific hieght, width and the exact dementions set by the US Govermnet, that any flagg that does not all withing these speicif dementions is in fact a replica or duplica copy of the actual flag.
Given this, and i neither support those who do burn the flag, nor do i critisie them, I believe if they flag(s) they are burning are the within the ecact size specifications set by the US Gornerment, then what they are burninig is in fact not the flag but rather a copy of it. What needs to be asked is, is is acrime to dystroy, burn ect a copy of the flag as oppsed to the acutaly flag itself based on dementions.
If this is true, we get critisized for burninig, the flag, but do not get crtisized, for wearing shirts that look like the flag, watch bands or as mentioned even doormats that look like the flag
So if there are specific dimentions for an official flagg to be considered an actauly flag and not a copy of it when a flagg is burned, are we burining the flag or a copy and if it is a copy then it seems to me it is not offensive
as we are doing to so to copy of the original and not the original
My other question is, if someone had a COPY of the US Consitution a copy of it, and they torn it, or shredded a COPY of it would that violate federal law, do we condem those who destroy copies or only the original.
Our Men and Woemn in uniform who have fought over the years to protect the freedoms we have and enjoy, it seems to me that one of those freedoms is freedom of speach and expression without fear of arrest or jail, if this is trun, then our people in the military who have fought and dies, have done so to protect ALL our freedoms, among which is burnnig the flag, as per the recent Supremem Court ruling
My intent is NOT to offend anyone readingthis but simply ask a question for thought and make a statement, if we have any former members of the military reading this and you are offended by my words my profound apologies for that, and my heart felt thanks for protecting our rights and freedoms over the years
There are some US Codes that govern the treatment of the flag here
This is all I could find for a definition of the us flag. It comes from US Code Title 4,3.Quote:
Originally Posted by cornell_university
Hope this helps clarify the question about what is considered a US Flag.
V/R
ID
Well at least the American flag is still just that, a symbol of America. Here in the UK both our flags (there is one for England - The cross of St George, and one for the UK - the Union Jack) were subverted to become icon of the British National Party, who are in essence thinly disguised neo-nazis. It is now becoming a concerted effort in the UK to "reclaim" the flags and remove the negative connotations.
However right now I wouldn't mind burning the Italian flag! 5-3 on penalties fer gawds sake! I'm gutted...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5163914.stm
hey, after zidanes headbutt i think france deserved to lose. shame on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious George
and if you think about it, france only scored a goal on a penalty, while italy scored cleanly. (actually twice, but one was clearly offside).
As usual there are many opinions about flag burning itself. I even read one suggestion that it was Bush/Cheney who wanted it made into a law. The question of flag burning has been around for many years. Back during the 1960's people were arrested for flag burning during the Viet Nam protests. One young man (I don't remember where) was arrested for using the flag as a patch on the seat of his pants.
The question asked was whether it should be made constitutionaly illegal. Thomas Mann once said "The government that govers best, governs least." I do not care to smoke and I really don't care if others get to smoke in public, but should it be illegal to smoke? It's an invasion of my privacy to make it illegal.:dont:
The constitution should not be changed whenever it allows something that someone just does't like.
A flag that is no longer to be used as a symbol of the country must be disposed of by burning. When someone burns it, it's no longer in the hands of someone who shouldn't have had it.
I hear you on that one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I also agree with you about the flag burning. I don't like it, but I don't think it should be a crime either.
Oh my, in mainland Britain, the national flags (NOT the Union Jack - that is 'reserved' for English patriots, Royalists and extreme right wing Nazis) cause so little offence in the main, I'm not sure anyone can be bothered burning them. Apart from maybe the Irish Republicans, and well, they have good reason. If like the UK nations and Ireland, each US state had it's own flag to be proud of there would be no need for such concerns. The Scots wear the St. Andrew's Cross (the Saltire), the Welsh wear the Dragon and the Northern Irish (Protestants), the Red Hand flag. Actually, ignore the above, while writing this down, I just realised I'm a reluctant pacifist! The Red Hand of Ulster and the Union Jack have the power to cause great anger.
I think we should stick to burning our bras *smiles*
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeseburger
Okay, I'm half French and I have to say something here. Zidane's attack was not an expression of red mist but a provoked act of instumental aggression, not hostile aggression. And how Italy love to dive - my Italian friends cannot deny this either and don't. Zinadine knew this was his last chance to shine for France yet the man thought, to hell with it, my family's respect and for my mother or a game in which we're all paid a zillion pounds a week to be rather good at this beautiful game. Zidane was a key part in making football THE beautiful game. He will NOT be remembered for that incident but for his long career as a probably the most skillful footballer in the world. For true lovers of this beautiful game anyway.
[With speakers on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r8jcaeuKPI]
Two words: Serie B
Another two: Match fixing
Last word: Italy
[Defensively brilliant but no art or attack, that is not what the game is about]
While you're wearing them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asia
I'm not aware of burning the flag being so important in other countries - as Asia says, it's nowhere near as important in Britain, no matter what the Daily Mail says.
I suppose it's that there aren't equivalent evocative symbols for other countries as that "Raising the stars and stripes in Iwo Jima" image (oo I hope it was Iwo Jima otherwise I'll feel foolish). The way that USA rallied around that flag that was rescued from the Twin Towers proved that it's a little more than just a piece of cloth. I don't think it's more important than human life... so if some zit-faced teen in some crappy college burns the flag, I don't think he should be beaten up.
(For Britain, I think the most common evocative image that touches the country is either a poppy field on the Somme... or the image of St Paul's Cathedral standing proudly during the middle of a month-long Nazi bombing campaign on London. Sad that they're both related to war, but neither involves a flag. I can see someone burning a poppy over here being as frowned upon as burning a flag over there.)
Well, I did a whole paragraph on the topic there, so I'll go back to thinking about Asia burning her bras. Yum. Maybe lighting a candle with them, and writing "down with war" on her stomach with the wax...
Sigh!
Q xx
*laughs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Qmoq
Q, that would be divine but as we've now got Martin O'Neil, can you do that while I'm watching Villa kick the rest of the Premierships ass *ahem*
~blows kiss to the cheeky and very wise Q~
Asia
xxx
Many poems and such have been written about the American flag. One of the reasons Americans find it as a source of pride is due to how the nation was developed (or perceived as developing).
Americans feel that as a nation we are a melting pot of other nations, coming together as one people. We fought for independence, for the right to govern ourselves. The flag became a source of defiance to the British crown. The nations anthem is written as a tribute to the idea that even under the insistent bombing and attacks, it still flew, never to be brought down in battle as surrender.
The flag represents American strength, American tenacity, American will power. Our devotion to the idea that all nations should have the right to govern themselves (that particular notion could be a lengthy debate and another thread).
So when you see Americans rally about the American flag in times of national sorrow, or flown at half mast. It is done to rally about the sacrifice that was given in the name of a nation, that was once just colonies, and came together, in a union of states. Motivated for a common cause.
Now to the reason someone might burn the flag (other than established disposal/retirement of a flag). When someone burns the American flag, and it doesn't matter what nationality, or nation you are in or from. When you burn the flag, it is to protest the actions of the American government, its actions. To protest the policies that are being set. Burning the flag is as much of a symbol of individuality and freedom as is the flag its self.
As far as the Iwo Jima flag raising. That was as much of a symbol of prevailing over the enemy, as much as is the rally around the flag found in the rubble of the towers. In the face of the worst losses, the flag will remain. Never to be taken down, never to be surrendered.
**This was just an opinionated rambling, the facts may be different, but the perception is still the same**
Perhaps burning a bra that looked like an American flag, while it was on Asia. Now that would be something I could enjoy watching.
V/R
ID
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDCrewDawg
Sir, we can only be opinionated if we have an opinion, I enjoy hearing what you and others have to say - every day is indeed a school day.
I'm a wee bit feared that you and Q are suggesting burning my bra while I'm wearing it though, so I've burned it after having removing it and have changed my photo AV so as to stop this scary idea from developing *breathes a sigh of relief*
Asia
xxx
Simply put, whether you believe in it or not whether you support it or not, a couple of years back, the United States Supremem Court specificly ruled that burninig the Flag IS protected by the United State Constiution as "Freedom of Speech and Freedom Of Expression"
I have no personal opnion on this, but the fact remain to this day, whether you support this or adhore this, our Highest Court in the Nation says it is legal to burn it
But there are also many other law of our land that I neither support or do not support, but theruling of the Court shows & some of the rights the we as Americans have in a Free Society
Someone my say, if this is true, why then it is illegal to shout "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre" that should be freedom of speeech/expression as well, the reason that shouting "FIRE" in a theatre is illegal has nothing to do with what was said, the Court ruled that shouting "FIRE" in a crowed movie theatre could and probably would result in a riot situation to clear the theatre, for this reason shouting it is ILLEGAL, not the words used but the where it was shouted, also the nice thing about the United States is that there are forums like this were all views can be expressed without worry or concern about being arrested for expressiing ones feelings
As the add goes
Buy a PC $850.00
Seeting it up $10.00
Using and Internet Service For surfing and email $29.99 a month
Busing a new USB cable for your printer $29.99
Liviing In The United States were we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH and EXPRESSION PRICELESS
Yes. Forget flag burning, let us all just burn Asia's bra and keep our hands warm :)
Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.
I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?
Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!
The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.
The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.
The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.
The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.
The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."
The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.
The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.
The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.
The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.
The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."
After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.
There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.
Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."
MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.
FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.
IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
Meaning of the Flag Draped Coffin.
All Americans should be given this lesson. Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought. Our founding fathers used God’s word and teachings to establish our Great Nation and I think it's high time Americans get re-educated about this Nation's history. Pass it along and be proud of the country we live in and even more proud of those who serve to protect our "GOD GIVEN" rights and freedoms.
I hope you take the time to read this..... To understand what the flag draped coffin really means...... Here is how to understand the flag that laid upon it and is surrendered to so many widows and widowers. Do you know that at military funerals, the 21-gun salute stands for the sum of the numbers in the year 1776?
Have you ever noticed the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the United States of America Flag 13 times? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies, but we learn something new every day!
The 1st fold of the flag is a symbol of life.
The 2nd fold is a symbol of the belief in eternal life.
The 3rd fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing the ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of the country to attain peace throughout the world.
The 4th fold represents the weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.
The 5th fold is a tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."
The 6th fold is for where people's hearts lie. It is with their heart that They pledge allegiance to the flag of the United! States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
The 7th fold is a tribute to its Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that they protect their country and their flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of their republic.
The 8th fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day.
The 9th fold is a tribute to womanhood, and Mothers. For it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.
The 10th fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of their country since they were first born.
The 11th fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The 12th fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
The 13th fold, or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding them of their nations motto, "In God We Trust."
After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for them the rights, privileges and freedoms they enjoy today.
There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.
Share this with the children you love and all others who love what is referred to, the symbol of "Liberty and Freedom."
MAYBE THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD READ THIS EXPLANATION BEFORE THEY RENDER THEIR DECISION ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.
FORWARD IT; MAYBE SOMEONE WITH THE NECESSARY POWER, OR POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE, WILL GET IT TO THEM.
IN THE MEANTIME, MAY GOD PROTECT US ALWAYS. ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
"Those who think that America is an arrogant nation should really reconsider that thought."
Because they fold flags real nice at military funerals? If you say so.
I'd be far more concerned about the motivations that left it required to fold yet another flag for yet another human being dead, than the knowedge of what folds # 6, 7, and 8 represent.
Considering 10 of our own soldiers have died inthe past week in Afghanistan, you won't be the only ones folding flags I'm afraid.
Careful WB. If you're going to be that assertive, get your facts right.
Our rights were originally declared as "inalienable" rights. Later, at the Constitutional Convention, the writers (many of whom were also our "founding fathers") very clearly avoided linking God and Country. That all came later... and was not their intention.
The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with the numerics of 1776 except by coincidence. The British Navy established 'gun salutes' long before we declared independence. The number of guns reflects the rank of the person being saluted.
The flag folding ceremony you quote is also referenced at http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm
They make the following comments about it: (red highlights are mine)
...and yet, we've been folding the flag this way since long before 1954.Quote:
What follows is an unofficial, but popular script for folding the flag. It does not appear in the Flag Code and would appear to be in violation of military guidelines, in violation of the Establishment Clause. The Establishment Clause requires that expression not create the reasonable impression that the government is sponsoring, endorsing, or inhibiting religion generally, or favoring or disfavoring a particular religion. See discussion and references at the end of this page for more information. There are numerous variations to be found circulating online and in newsgroups and e-mails. We have not been successful in discovering its origin or authorship.
In fold 6, the Pledge is quoted with the words "under God," which were added to the Pledge in 1954.
Lastly, since you went out of your way to capitalize your last three paragraphs, why do you feel you need to "yell" at us to make your point.
If you intend to yell, please try to at least get your facts straight.
Sorry, I just passed it along assuming. We all know what assuming does. Again, I'm apologize for any discrepancies even though I did not write.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I should have probably posted a disclaimer.
Probably a useless addition to this thread, but again from a UK military stance.
My man's side of the family are all in the armed forces and in order to make light of a serious fact, they call themselves 'gun fodder' and 'professional killers' - that is what they are. My eldest brother 'in law' as a RSM (highest ranking soldier if not at Sandhurst Military School of the Royals and Riches) has the misfortune of being the coffin leader when the planes full of dead boy soldiers land back in the UK. He folds the flags, he orders the gun salutes, he has lost many of his men. Me and him do not argue about the reasoning of war, we stand from two very different viewpoints. We respect our differences. The point I'm trying to make is that as a staunch Protestant and a RSM in The King's Own Scottish Borderers Battalion, he burnt 'the' flag in a private ceremony in rememberance of his men, past, present and future. Burning and folding a countries flags is far less serious than being haunted by the twisted faces and bodies of strangers and comrades lost in another pointless invasion.
I think we owe more to remember lives lost and ruined than a material item that will never symbolise what the people in all our lands really want. Peace.
~ Sorry about this post, I'm sure this attitude was unwanted ~
Asia
xxx
Well said Asia. Remembering those lost is more important and unfortunately there are too many we need to remember.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asia
Not true, your thoughts are all very interesting. Don't sell yourself short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asia
First, I have to say Asia very good, I understand were you are coming from and your bother in law, I feel his pain, know his nightmares, All to the tune of Goverments (all not just the US or UK) Ideas wants and ego building.
Genreal McCarthur side it well "No one prays for peace more then the combat soldeir" then you have billy joel song goodnight siagon in it he sings true words
"Whos wrong or whos right dosent matter in the thick of a firefight"
I also like to say about flag burning, i really dont have any >> however if i didnt like it I would have to defend it as thats a true consitional right here in Amercia, its called the 1st admentment. I as a american dont have to like what anyone says or dose here, as this country was build on the blood and souls of our best, brightes, in so many far away places. So we have that right.
Once again Asia, keep up the peace fight if we had more like minded people in the Goverments in the world we would have to drape coffins or fold flags.
Thank You
Master Rob
(Note, I am from the United States, so my comments will reflect that particular perspective)
The fact that the United States' flag is such an important symbol, and that so many are deeply offended by public displays of disrespect toward it, is all the more reason why it is vitally important that flag desicration remain protected. The framers of the Bill of Rights did not enact the First Amendment to protect the right of people to express popular viewpoints -- they enacted it to protect unpopular viewpoints. They enacted it to protect the rights of each particular person to express ideas that might offend people.
It is hard to believe that I'm not preaching to the chior here (perhaps I am). We are all fans of this particular website, or we wouldn't be here. Consider, however, the fact that many people find the content of this site immoral and deeply offensive. Suppose the government were to attempt to outlaw accessing this site for that reason (the offensive nature of BDSM). Everyone here would, I'd bet, be complaining that their "free speech" is being trampled upon.
The First Amendment is a two-edged sword. Not only does it ALLOW you to utter and listen to speech that might offend your next door neighbor, it also COMMANDS you to tollerate your next door neighbor's offensive speech. As many very patriotic people have pointed out, "freedom ain't free." Usually when people say that, they are talking about military service, but it means something even more fundimental than that. It means that if are really serious about Freedom of Speech, it is every America's patriotic duty to follow the command of the First Amendment and tollerate the most offensive speech you can possibly imagine.
Sorry for the rant -- the above is a pet peeve of mine.
Dena, if you've reviewed the thread, you'll know I'm singing tenor in your choir. LOL
Well put.
Ok...here's my two cents' worth...As the wife of an American veteran who has lost more friends in combat over the 20+ years he served than he cares to count, as the aunt of a Marine who served in Iraq for three tours of duty, as a former military wife, and as a proud American citizen, I must say that I support my country and what our flag has symbolized over the years. When I see that flag disrespected, and our military insulted, yes it makes my blood boil.
And as for the First Amendment, and the freedom of speech, there are times when I just want to smack people for not realizing just who made it possible for them to be able to say whatever they want - especially the fundamentalist fanatics of all kinds who seem to get caught on the "my way is the only right way, and the rest of y'all are going to hell" track.
But then I think of the true meaning of freedom - what it means, and of the awesome responsibility that goes along with it in all of its various forms. And I am incredibly thankful that I do live in a country where we are able to speak our minds, where we are able to worship the gods we believe in, where we are able to live (for the most part) the lifestyles we choose.
That being said, I must also say that I disagree with many of the policies our country has in place around the world. I do not agree with war. I do not like fighting, for any reason. I am tired of the politicians who have made America into the world's watchdog. But I feel it is my duty to support those who are serving, to let them know that they are not forgotten.
I don't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes (somewhat) along these lines: "I may not agree with the things you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."
So, forgive me for waffling on the subject. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I'll get off my soapbox now.
I don't remember the exact words either, but it was Voltaire who said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterbaby421
Thank you! At least now I know who it was! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
I do not support the war, I DO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS and believe in our Consitution, no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy, but in any situation you have the good and bad, we have the luxury of the United Stes Contiution some people will agree with parts of it, some will disagree with parts of it and say so publcly which is our given right as US Citizen's, whether person agreee's or disagree with flag buring, the simply fact remains that the United Stae Suprmem Court rules that it is protected by the United State Contituation under freedom of speach and action
Altho I may agree or not agree with the ruling, it is one of the many freedoms we as American's enjoy in a free society, i can fully understand a famly member of family who has members fighting now or lost members fighting before to give us and preserve the rights we have
But I must aslo include that with these rights are rights and actions everyone is not going to agree with and what makes this nice is that in a Demoractic Sociaty that we live in we HAVE these rights, just like the rights on this forum to discuss these issues, we are not all going to agree on everything, the real world does not allow that, but we do have the right to discuss and disagree on issues without the fear of going to jail, this everyone will also agree on as beingture
In a free socierty you must give and take
I would rather be critized for say yes i support flag buring in a public forum if i did, and i repeat I neither spport it nor oppose flag burninig,but what is far more important to ME is to the have the right to even discuss the issue without fear of being arrested for doing so
Hope eveyone has a great day
Taking a deep breath before I say this, and not wishing to be in the slightest bit offensive. I admire many things about the US, but that is a sweeping statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkemse
Having been talking to someone from your country who has lost their house after needing medical treatment for an illness which they did not have insurance cover for, I would debate your point. You do not appear to have the freedom to be non-wealthy and healthy, which to me is a fairly basic right.
cariad
Our Country is not perfect, nodbody ever said it was, health care is a HUGE issue here, but unlike other countries, our contry seems to be less interested in health care which is as you put it correct and very unfortunate, we are the Richest Nation on Earth, yet some of our own citizen's have to decide daily weekly or monthly, do i pay my rent, my electricity and buy food or do i buy my medication, a basic human right, but like i said we as a nation are not perfect and never will be, but at the same time we enjoy more things then others do
Nation Health Care In The US would be great, a god send, the reason we do not have it is politicains here worry more about their own skin and lobbiests then in the people they represent, which is why we have elections evey 2-4years depending on what office they seek
The lobbiest in this country are to strong and until the Goverment does what is fair National Health Care wil never exist
Both of our Parties are to beholden to special intrests as a result many things that need to be done are not
Social Security Recipients in this country do NOT recieve a living wage to live on, be they retired or disabled, we barely make it each month, I speak from experience being disabled I barely make it each month, i have $2.00
going into a new month if that, i can barely afford my medication but some how our country always has the money to go to war and and money to make and drop bombs on othe rnations go figure this out please
No i am far from pleased with my life style but I AM FREE to say so and can do so without fearing of going out and being arrested for critizing those who are responsible
Last year for the first time in 5 years Social Security reciepients recieved a 4% cost of living increaee in January as oppsed to 1.5 % we usualy get, but as luck would have it of the 4% i got, 60% went back for my Meidcare D card to buy medications which i I might add costs me more now then it did when i had a State program which the goverrment ended with Medicare D, I have gotten used to living like this, this choice is not mine but it is ONE of the few choice in a free society that are NOT mine, I can work where I want if I was physicaly able to work which I am not, I can live where I want, drive where I want visit who I want and when without asking permission of any one other then those I am visiting to make surethey want company
The above was a response to the statement "no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we [in the United States] enjoy." Your point is well taken -- there are serious problems with the US Health Care system.Quote:
Originally Posted by cariad(CC)
I have never been to the UK, so perhaps there is a fundimental cultural difference between the way we look at certain things. Then again, perhaps it's just a difference between the way two individuals look at things. To most Americans, "Freedom / Liberty" and "Prosperity" are two very different concepts. The former refers to the absence of interference by the government, while the latter refers to your material well-being. If someone does not have access to the health care they need, then that person's problem is a lack of prosperity, not a lack of freedom.
I'm not belittling the problems of people who don't have access to health care. I am simply saying that when someone from the US boasts that we are a "free" country, that person is not necessarily boasting that we are prosperous. If you wish to critique the statement that no other country on our planet allows the freedoms or civil right's that we enjoy," then critique it in terms of government interference that people in the US must suffer, since that is the point that the poster was making.
- Lady Dena
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say itQuote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
Voltaire, Real Name: François Marie Arouet, French philosopher (1694–1778)
Apparently
Sorry if I took thr wrong exit on the right expressway
have a nice day all
:)
Breathes again, thank you for your considered replies mkemse and Lady Dena. I wish to take a bit of time before I critique the statement within those terms. Quite simply I do not have information to do so without some research.
I do take your points about personal/cultural differences in interpretation, and that is one of the joys of belonging to a community like this. I can see the difference between freedom/liberty and prosperity, although my perception is that without adequate prosperity to ensure a basic level of health and education, the freedoms and liberties which you mention are an irrelevant luxury.
cariad
p.s. I am aware that I am a moderator of this forum, so I have informed Rabbit1 of this discussion we are having, so someone is keeping an on me too!