Annoying reviews

Ok, hmm...so I've read through this thread twice now. I will say that I am greatly guilty of reading stories without offering a review after I do so. :o I've seen comments from authors in this thread ranging from, to paraphrase, 'damn people piss me off telling me about what I write' to 'well, I appreciate a thoughtful review'. Having read stories, and having thoughts on most of them, my queries are chronicled below.

Rabbit wrote "golden Rule ---those that can write do ---those that can't usually become critics", which makes me think that offering a review is a bad, bad thing and that if one does take the time to generate an opinion, one can't put together thoughts in the written story form (which I happen to know "one" can, just hasn't done so here is all). But the furry author also remarked, "you are quite right Mad ----really a small percentage of the readers bother with a review ---I think most do not even look at the reviews", which almost leads me to believe that leaving a few words in the way of a review might not be so distasteful to the author. I also took note of what H Dean had to say. "You are right, of course...an initial review will often bring about reviews of similar nature. Unfortunately, people don't want to be the first to break stride and would rather offer a half assed review than offer their honesty. Also, offering a "real" review is often too much work. Laziness is high and productivity is low." Reading that, I actually do believe that honest, well thought out reviews are welcomed by the author. As I am a bit confused, could someone please comment on which way this train of thought travels?

Mad Lews delivered the following: "Still the story has nearly thirty five thousand hits and only ten reviews so you have to figure the bulk of the people reading it aren’t interested in the reviews...". On the other side of the coin I now toss is Aussiegirl with "I think it all depends on the way the review is written too. I find that if the reviewer adds positives as well as negatives, it softens the review. Writers need to know what they have done well as much as they need to know the areas that need to be improved." I must ponder...are the readers the intended target for the review(er) or is it the author that is in the line of fire? I ask because, in my role of reader-only at the moment, I do not look at the reviews myself. I look for specific content most days. Other days I will look at the brief description of the story, and if it slams up against me the proper way, I'll take a look. So if I do combine readership with reviewer status, how should a reviewer, potential or otherwise, aim that particular set of review words? At the reader or the author? Perhaps both? Anyone with ideas about all that?

And to Ashtree and jamb who were bothered by certain words, maybe you can take solace in the fact that they are just that...words? No real power to them unless you allow it. ~thinks of past criticism and shudders~ Well, for the most part anyway. :)

All my best-
tessa

Tessa,

First of all, I do enjoy getting a review, good or bad, so long as it is thoughtful. Frankly, I would much rather have an "8" with a well thought out offering of critisism than a "10" with a "nice story". Don't get me wrong, I like the latter, it just doesn't have the impact the former does.

I would encourage you to offer reviews. It does tend to spur authors onward. Knowing that ones work is appreciated is quite rewarding and tends to make authors work all the more diligently. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that, somewhere in the recesses of our minds, we all strive to write that one tale that will acheive perfect tens.

I think you will notice that there is one consistent beef that we all share; idiotic reviews. Those are the reviews that trash a story based on one mistake or because the story theme was distasteful to the reader. Doing so is simply unfair and clearly against the stated review policy.

But please, feel free to offer reviews. I encourage it. Even if you give me a harsh review. So long as it is honest and based on the quality of the story - not on content or entirely based one or two minor gaffes.

Tessa,
Yup writers as a lot aren't very consistent.
To add to the confusion let me ramble some more.
Reviewers should (hopefully) be readers, sometimes you wonder but I think that's true for the most part.
The reviews are sometimes directed at the author and sometimes at the readers, that depends on the reviewer and how they phrase it, a bit like writing from a point of view.
Authors LUV reviews for the most part, it means someone cared enough to take keyboard to screen and state their thoughts on your efforts.
Of course if the gist of those thoughts is "You SUCK!!" then the charm and worth of the review is somewhat diminished unless it is accompanied by a more detailed explanation or even some constructive suggestions.
The scoring might be of greater interest to potential readers and that may indeed be what makes the writers a bit twitchy about the whole process. Perhaps the two should be separated, a review section for the writers feedback and a scoring section for the audience made up of people who have read the story and need do nothing more than punch a number to register their vote.
Still we have what we have and we muddle through smiling and gripping as the spirit moves us.
Mad & Lews

All righty then...review time it is. The written part delivered mostly for the author side of things and the rating given with a personal opinion slant having other readers in mind...gotcha.

Thank you, H Dean and Mad Lews (or Mad & Lews...a case of split personality or just a mood? :)), for clearing that all up for me.

Off to the review boards...

tessa :wave:

Tessa....watch out. Both Mad and Lews bite. Hmm...that an be taken a couple ways.

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Originally Posted by H Dean

Tessa....watch out. Both Mad and Lews bite. Hmm...that can be taken a couple ways.

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In that case...

~thinks of donning chain maille, but ultimately decides against it~

I don't mind such bites...either way. But thank you ever so much for the warning. :)

Um :rolleyes: Tessa,
Please be aware that Mr. Dean is sometimes prone to vast exaggeration. It's why I sometimes call him Howard. Let me assure you that both Mad and Lews are perfect gentlemen in the most basic meaning of the word. It is true that some find Lews a tad eccentric at times but he's totally harmless. He has never bitten, chewed or masticated any of his domestic partners except when invited to by said victim. Well there was that incident in 98 with Sharon… and then again last fall with Sally, but they were both asking for it in a more or less straightforward kind of round about way.
In any event charges were never pressed so it really never happened in a legal sense.
But I digress, please do feel free to review without worry. Mad doesn't mind and Lews can't read.
I'm sure it's perfectly safe.
Mad Lews

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Originally Posted by Mad Lews

I'm sure it's perfectly safe.
Mad Lews

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This is about the place the scary music kicks in. You know, when everyone should get out of the water.

well, i dont mind getting out the water, as long as i have a GOOD story to read!!

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He has never bitten, chewed or masticated any of his domestic partners except when invited to by said victim. Well there was that incident in 98 with Sharon… and then again last fall with Sally, but they were both asking for it in a more or less straightforward kind of round about way.
In any event charges were never pressed so it really never happened in a legal sense.

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Not saying I don't trust your Mad and Lews, but perhaps I should contact Sharon and Sally, just to reassure myself that they are both well and good, all limbs still in the proper places and attached...that sort of thing? Just a thought...

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But I digress, please do feel free to review without worry. Mad doesn't mind and Lews can't read.

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I know for certain I read a thread in which the reading prowess of Lews was discussed. I just know it!! ~eyes you somewhat suspiciously~ Now I have to search the Forums from top to sideways in order to check your version of the truth! A bugger of a task.

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I'm sure it's perfectly safe.

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I must agree with H Dean on this. That phrase is used only when horribly disastrous events are distinctly imminent. I will be nowhere near the water when I post a review to your stories. Ok, ok, granted, keeping my dainty toes from splashing about while I do review might also be a good idea seeing as I use the computer to do so, but still, that doesn't negate the need to be wary of the pitfalls of the dreaded "perfectly safe" syndrome.

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Please be aware that Mr. Dean is sometimes prone to vast exaggeration. It's why I sometimes call him Howard.

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Profound apologies, H Dean, as I did have to giggle a bit on that one. Not so much about your exaggerative skills, but the reference..."the scream heard 'round the world" and such. Oh my! Another fit of humor just thinking of it. But seriously, it will be my ~giggles~ most determined effort ~giggles again~ to make sure I refrain ~almost laughing full on~ from engaging in such ~mentally chants, "I will stop laughing!...I will stop laughing!"~ shameless mockery. ~sighs and wipes away the laffy tears~ Ahem...yes, I will do my best.

And now my Southern guilt has sauntered in to chastise me about the fun-making, so to Mr. Dean (the screamer, not the exaggerator (and I'm not calling H Dean and exaggeration aficionado...that was Mad, or was it Lews?? oh bother! and I can't do another set of parentheses)), bless your heart, sugar pie.

But just to make my own sort of claim to what is and what isn't so. Mad Lews, I have read a few of your stories now. It is definitely not your bites I am concerned about. And H Dean...living wall art. Need I say more?

Continued brilliant writing to you both! :)

tessa

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Originally Posted by J's blu

well, i dont mind getting out the water, as long as i have a GOOD story to read!!

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You just wanna get et!

I don't know who this "Howard" fellow is, but I am sure he is an upstanding fellow who only states what is obvious to all, without overstating things. Why anyone would state that I am prone to exageration I do not know and I certainly disagree, vehemently. It is a tremendous slight that has been done to me, and I fear I shall be forced to take to my sick bed for the hurt this has caused. Woe is me!

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Originally Posted by H Dean

I don't know who this "Howard" fellow is, but I am sure he is an upstanding fellow who only states what is obvious to all, without overstating things. Why anyone would state that I am prone to exageration I do not know and I certainly disagree, vehemently. It is a tremendous slight that has been done to me, and I fear I shall be forced to take to my sick bed for the hurt this has caused. Woe is me!

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~adorns self in nurse's costume~ Basically, this is all I can really do, as I'm kinda squeamish around sick bed people.

~looks around~ And I see no exaggeration anywhere at all. Not a lick of it.

Feel better yet? I sure hope so as this costume is a might constricting in a few places and I am close to laughing again.

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Originally Posted by tessa

~adorns self in nurse's costume~ Basically, this is all I can really do, as I'm kinda squeamish around sick bed people.

~looks around~ And I see no exaggeration anywhere at all. Not a lick of it.

Feel better yet? I sure hope so as this costume is a might constricting in a few places and I am close to laughing again.

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"Is that a thermometer in your hand or do you just like to poke a man when he's down?"
My sincere wishes for Mr. Dean's (can I call you James? No, I thought not.)
speedy recovery.
Mad Lews

poor poor Dean Sir, having to deal with these totally scurrilous accusations of His ability to embellish and enhance His descriptions of troo happenings.

but what i need to know is, can i still get et?
hoping ofr Your speedy recovery!!

blu

I believe that I am being mocked. There shall be no mockery on my watch! Back, ye scurrilous louts, Back, I say, lest I smite you with my wit and abrasive kitchen cleaner!

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Originally Posted by tessa

All righty then...review time it is. The written part delivered mostly for the author side of things and the rating given with a personal opinion slant having other readers in mind...gotcha.

Thank you, H Dean and Mad Lews (or Mad & Lews...a case of split personality or just a mood? :)), for clearing that all up for me.

Off to the review boards...

tessa :wave:

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tessa dear,
See that wasn't all that hard, and if you take a moment to count your fingers and toes you'll see most of them are still there. I'm Surprised you ploughed through Caesar, not to be sexist but I always thought it had a more masculine appeal, shows what I know.
Mad

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Originally Posted by H Dean

I believe that I am being mocked. There shall be no mockery on my watch! Back, ye scurrilous louts, Back, I say, lest I smite you with my wit and abrasive kitchen cleaner!

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Howard,
The sweet young thing in that tight little nurse uniform (the one holding the corkscrew syringe) claims acute paranoia is an early sign of recovery. Glad to see you're well on your way.
Mad

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Originally Posted by Mad Lews

tessa dear,
See that wasn't all that hard, and if you take a moment to count your fingers and toes you'll see most of them are still there. I'm Surprised you ploughed through Caesar, not to be sexist but I always thought it had a more masculine appeal, shows what I know.
Mad

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~counts fingers and toes...wiggles them as well, just to make sure...notices strange markings on my left pinky finger...looks over at you...looks back at my finger...looks back over to you, a very wary look on my face as I tuck my hands in the pocket of my hoodie and sit with my feet tucked under me~ Oh, be sexist, Mr. Mad! It's so the un-pollie-C thing to do these days and I do appreciate the unconventional...which is why I read Ceasar. My admiration of your story was meant in no way to cause you doubt regarding your authority on the preferences of your gendered readers. You still know everything there is to know about that, I feel sure.

As for Ceasar, you had me at "feel free to scream, bitch". And while there were a couple times throughout my focused perusal that gave me pause to consider my decision to undertake such a challenge, my curiosity in finding out if proud Rebecca would ultimately fall apart (which she did, thank you very much) overcame any qualms I may have had. Besides, Cassius is such a delightfully evil thing (what he did to Leona was inspired). I enjoyed him throughout the entire story.

But most of all (selfishly so), it was nice to be the surprise instead of the cliche. So thank you for that as well. :)

tessa

~holds syringe in one hand and thermometer in the other...my tight little costume and impossibly high heels making me wiggle about a bit~ I do hope you are feeling better, Mr. Dean, because honest to goodness, I don't know the first thing about using either one of these. They could prove highly dangerous in my very uncapable hands.

~thinks I may have just provided a story idea with that~

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I believe that I am being mocked. There shall be no mockery on my watch! Back, ye scurrilous louts, Back, I say, lest I smite you with my wit and abrasive kitchen cleaner!

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And I wouldn't dare mock you! That would make me a lout and rude at the same time. I don't do those together as a general rule. Although I might give it a try if there's a possibility of having your wit smite me around some. ;)

tessa

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Originally Posted by Mad Lews

Howard,
The sweet young thing in that tight little nurse uniform (the one holding the corkscrew syringe) claims acute paranoia is an early sign of recovery. Glad to see you're well on your way.
Mad

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She better keep that thing away from Howard's End.

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Originally Posted by tessa

~holds syringe in one hand and thermometer in the other...my tight little costume and impossibly high heels making me wiggle about a bit~ I do hope you are feeling better, Mr. Dean, because honest to goodness, I don't know the first thing about using either one of these. They could prove highly dangerous in my very uncapable hands.

~thinks I may have just provided a story idea with that~

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I should say so. Perhaps I should liberate such implements from your person; they are not for the uninoculated - and it is clear that you need an inoculation. Step close, bend over and...well, wait for it.

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And I wouldn't dare mock you! That would make me a lout and rude at the same time. I don't do those together as a general rule. Although I might give it a try if there's a possibility of having your wit smite me around some. ;)

tessa

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You already appear to be smitten by my wit. Shall I indulge in overkill and chance you collapsing from too great a weight of wit? That would not do.

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Originally Posted by tessa

[I]
As for Ceasar, you had me at "feel free to scream, bitch". And while there were a couple times throughout my focused perusal that gave me pause to consider my decision to undertake such a challenge, my curiosity in finding out if proud Rebecca would ultimately fall apart (which she did, thank you very much) overcame any qualms I may have had. Besides, Cassius is such a delightfully evil thing (what he did to Leona was inspired). I enjoyed him throughout the entire story.

But most of all (selfishly so), it was nice to be the surprise instead of the cliche. So thank you for that as well. :)

tessa

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An interesting point tessa,
I never saw Cassius as particularly evil. He had so many good qualities, a very professional military strategist, a confident and steady leader who truly cared for his men and was quite proud of them. A military man aware of the limits of his position and also aware enough of the political climate to deal effectively with the real power players.
He doesn't even seem to take personal delight in tormenting the prisoners in his care. It's all just part of the job for him, he'll do it because that's what's called for.
As for poor Leona, the goal of the entire day was to entertain the masses, it was nothing personal, and he even seemed a bit relieved when ordered to end it all after the circus.
Well that was my goal, but your reaction is perfectly valid and thought provoking.
See reviewing can be fun :)
Mad

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Originally Posted by Mad Lews

An interesting point tessa,
I never saw Cassius as particularly evil. He had so many good qualities, a very professional military strategist, a confident and steady leader who truly cared for his men and was quite proud of them. A military man aware of the limits of his position and also aware enough of the political climate to deal effectively with the real power players.
He doesn't even seem to take personal delight in tormenting the prisoners in his care. It's all just part of the job for him, he'll do it because that's what's called for.
As for poor Leona, the goal of the entire day was to entertain the masses, it was nothing personal, and he even seemed a bit relieved when ordered to end it all after the circus.
Well that was my goal, but your reaction is perfectly valid and thought provoking.
See reviewing can be fun :)
Mad

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I'd ask Leona about her take on it, as she'd be the foremost expert on this issue of Cassius' evil streak, but we know what happened to her, so...

I will say that Cassius, at times, seemed to be above it all...especially when he was behind and a bit above Rebecca, giving her free reign to scream and such. Quite right. No delight for him in that at all.

He was indeed a shrewd and very aware participant in the political arena. He more than proved that at the end of the story. And he was a great leader of men. That quality was written all through him. I will say it again. I was quite delighted with his character.

You more than made your goal, Mr. Mad, surpassed it even.

And yes, such fun!

Most sincerely-
tessa
:wave:

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I should say so. Perhaps I should liberate such implements from your person; they are not for the uninoculated - and it is clear that you need an inoculation. Step close, bend over and...well, wait for it.

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~gladly hands over the implements, but not for innoculation reasons~ And I can't bend over here, Mr. Dean, not in this nurse's costume. And I abhor waiting, so there is that as well.

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You already appear to be smitten by my wit. Shall I indulge in overkill and chance you collapsing from too great a weight of wit? That would not do.

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Damn, I've already been wit smitten?!? Did I get it on my face?? Oh, please tell me it didn't dribble onto my dress!! This is silk...

~goes off to check the damage, repeating "weight of wit" over and over just 'cause it's so fun to say~

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Originally Posted by tessa

~gladly hands over the implements, but not for innoculation reasons~ And I can't bend over here, Mr. Dean, not in this nurse's costume. And I abhor waiting, so there is that as well.

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Then you should do what is logical. Simply remove the costume. Then, remember that good things cum to those who wait.

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Damn, I've already been wit smitten?!? Did I get it on my face?? Oh, please tell me it didn't dribble onto my dress!! This is silk...

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Dribbling would not happen if you simply accepted wit with open mouth.

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~goes off to check the damage, repeating "weight of wit" over and over just 'cause it's so fun to say~

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I was feeling as alliterate as I am literate. Really. Feel me.

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Originally Posted by H Dean;

I was feeling as alliterate as I am literate. Really. Feel me.

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Mr. Dean, your alliteration is so prominent, I don't have to feel it to feel it. ~checks out your alliteration once more~ Quite impressive!

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Originally Posted by tessa

Mr. Dean, your alliteration is so prominent, I don't have to feel it to feel it. ~checks out your alliteration once more~ Quite impressive!

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Yes, it is very powerful.

Your powerful alliteration makes me wonder...oh, does it make me wonder.

Could an entire passage of prose be written as such? Hmm...

To revive the issue of annoying reviews (as that is the thread title), what makes even a positive review annoying? Is that a common happening? Just curious. You author types may be willing to shed some light on the annoying subject perhaps?

Respectfully submitted-
tessa

(As a by the way, say 'annoying' 8 or 9 times in a row. You will understand why the word has the meaning it does.)

Some positive reviews, while not necessarily annoying can be relatively, well, uninspiring. I have seen reviews of a 10 that hold zero weight because the reviewer routinely reviews crap with very positive reviews. I cringe when I see those good reviews because it makes me wonder how my story could have been so bad as to get such a high review from someone who likes crap.

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Originally Posted by H Dean

I cringe when I see those good reviews because it makes me wonder how my story could have been so bad as to get such a high review from someone who likes crap.

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Hey, who are we to judge fetishes though that does seem a bit unsanitary and might smell bad.
I hesitate to whine about reviewers (so what am I doing on this thread?) as they are already few and far between. Still in the spirit of the thread the ones that give me pause are the thought free one liners.
"Good idea, looking for more." Or the even more laconic, "Good story." If you are going to the trouble to review inject a few of your thoughts and feelings into the process.
Mad Lews
(together again, for today)

Thank you both for the input. I don't review "crap", as Mr. Dean calls it. If the story is repelling to me, either in content or in basic form, I just don't review at all. Why state the obvious? And besides, when people take the initiative to put it out there, as it were, I'd hate to be the nightmare in their dream.

And since Mad Lews is so in sync with himself today, his thoughts on the review process are easy to comprehend. If it had been just Lews offering, it probably would have been covered in drool and been much more difficult to understand.

Sure - it would have been drool.

I don't think so, princess.

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Originally Posted by H Dean

Sure - it would have been drool.

I don't think so, princess.

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~wonders who "princess" is and hopes she doesn't mind me commenting in ahead of her~

~blinks ever so innocently~ Why Mr. Dean, whatever do you mean? It could have been just that. Haven't you ever drooled on your own thoughts? I think it's been known to happen on occasion. Perhaps I am mistaken though. That's happened on occasion as well.

As far a good and bad reviews go, everyone has their own fetish, and may want to read something they normaly would not read
What is CRAP to One person, may not be CRAP to Another
I like gold, you may like silver does that mean my taste is CRAP, no it means my taste is DIFFERENT that is what people are people, everyone is different, how odd it would be if EVERY REVIEWER wrote the same type of review for every story, my guss is after 1 or 2 people would stop writing reviws cause they would all be the same
I write what I feel, sometime I leave a brief reviews other times longer ones, but I reserve the right to review a story as I see it, and others should so the same, the only exception is if it is woefully bad I will read it buy leave no review
As the old saying goes "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"
if you do not like bad reviews, don't write, you willl never please ever one with every story, this is a reality of life, not even Steven Speilberg had hits with every movie he made, he made 1 or 2 turkey's during his career

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Originally Posted by mkemse

As the old saying goes "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"
if you do not like bad reviews, don't write, you willl never please ever one with every story, this is a reality of life, not even Steven Speilberg had hits with every movie he made, he made 1 or 2 turkey's during his career

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Hey! I liked AI, and so did Lews so that makes two of us.

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What is CRAP to One person, may not be CRAP to Another

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You are exactly correct.

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I like gold,

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Hey! Me too!!

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does that mean my taste is CRAP

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If it does, I guess my taste is too, as we both like gold. But I do like silver as well, so I think I'm good to go as far as the gold/silver debate goes.

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I write what I feel, sometime I leave a brief reviews other times longer ones, but I reserve the right to review a story as I see it, and others should so the same, the only exception is if it is woefully bad I will read it buy leave no review

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It's a good thing we can come to a site like this and say what we think, isn't it? What makes a story "woefully bad" for you, mkemse?

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As the old saying goes "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"

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This is my ticket out of there!!! Thanks!!

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if you do not like bad reviews, don't write

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Another ticket out. The cowardly ticket, I call it.

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, you willl never please ever one with every story, this is a reality of life

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Yep, that's true.

Interesting thoughts, mkemse.

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Originally Posted by mkemse

As far a good and bad reviews go, everyone has their own fetish, and may want to read something they normaly would not read
What is CRAP to One person, may not be CRAP to Another
I like gold, you may like silver does that mean my taste is CRAP, no it means my taste is DIFFERENT that is what people are people, everyone is different, how odd it would be if EVERY REVIEWER wrote the same type of review for every story, my guss is after 1 or 2 people would stop writing reviws cause they would all be the same
I write what I feel, sometime I leave a brief reviews other times longer ones, but I reserve the right to review a story as I see it, and others should so the same, the only exception is if it is woefully bad I will read it buy leave no review...

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Yep, I couldn't agree more. I guess there's an awful lot of subjective reviewing goes on here--I do it myself. If I fine a story really titilating I'll find it much easier to over look mistakes, or clumsy writing, to give a higher score and generous comments.

To your full credit, mkemse, from what I've seen, your reviews are good and a good indication for other readers of what's hot and what's not.

And Mad Lews..*hugs x 2* I love you both equally! *gg*

Alex,
Thanks for your kind remarks and support even with movie reviews with Ebert & Roeper, they do not always agree om every movie , i have seen many 1 thumb up 1 thumb dwon, this is life
i would hate to see everyone where i live wear the same clothe oufits everday imagine 500 people everyday wearing the exact same clothes as the next perso,n it would be very boring within a day or 2 and have everyone look like eveyone else
I may not agree with another reviewer or thier review but I will defend thier right to express their feelings about a story whether i agree with what they said or not
The only time i have a major issue with any author is when they have say 25 stories posted and all are very similar in genre and storyline you can only cook a hamburger so many ways without repeating a way

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Originally Posted by mkemse

I may not agree with another reviewer or their review but I will defend their right to express their feelings about a story whether i agree with what they said or not
The only time i have a major issue with any author is when they have say 25 stories posted and all are very similar in genre and storyline you can only cook a hamburger so many ways without repeating a way

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Got to agree mkemse, freedom of thought and expression needs to be celebrated when it's found, even when it's dead wrong. That doesn't mean you can't have healthy disagreements.
I do trust you'll let me know if my storylines become stale though they do all tend to revolve around BDSM :) (at least on this site)
Mad

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Originally Posted by Alex Bragi

To your full credit, mkemse, from what I've seen, your reviews are good and a good indication for other readers of what's hot and what's not.

And Mad Lews..*hugs x 2* I love you both equally! *gg*

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Yes Alex but will you still respect us in the morning?

I suspect part of the hub-bub is that reviews have two not necessarily compatible functions. Readers want a heads up on the story before they invest the time, and writers want some feed back. OK writers want good PR, accolades for their efforts, and then any helpful feedback.(It's nice to want things, gives you motivation and what not.) So I suspect many shorter reviews are directed more at fellow readers than at the authors themselves, but writers are an egotistical lot and probably expect everything written about their story to be addressed toward themselves and we have been known to ignore readers on occasion, much to our peril :dont: .

& Lews