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I read all of the stories off line, then checking out other stories by the author 's & the new stories list. I'm also hooked on the random story. SO Thank You for With out you the AUTHORS, lets not even think about it!!!
If there was an easy way to prepost review & then just click.(I havent tried the copy & paste i may try it next time) I enjoy this site so much i really dont like to ask for more. :D
PS i didnt use spell check so im sorry in advance.
I have made some changes in the review function so that the authors will get an email notification whenever a new review is posted for his/her story. The authors will not get the email for review editing.
If you find anything wrong with the email, please let me know. If you don't want to receive this kind of email, please let me know and I will remove you from the notification system.
Jinn
Vlad wrote -- It is sad to see less than one review per 1000 downloads, but I can understand it given the audience.
------------------------------------
One also has to be careful what one wishes for.
I've been kind of lamenting (occasionally in public here, but mostly to myself) the lack of reviews; up until a day or two ago I was running about 1 review for every 8,000 clicks. Five reviews out of 42,000 clicks on 3 stories, one of them multi-part.
Thanks to Jinn's new program, I noticed in my e-mail this morning that somebody had reviewed one of my stories (Jade Pavilion I) -- only its second review --.
I was quite elated -- that story hadn't been reviewed since its first few days of publication about four months ago-- and hurriedly click-click-clicked to access the review, wondering breathlessly if the reviewer enjoyed the setting, the characterization, or just, perhaps, the "thrill scenes" (Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.)
A few clicks later I opened the review to find a big fat 4. :-)
"I had a hard time getting past the first couple of paragraphs. To {sic} much bouncing from one subject to another. Hard to keep focused on the story line. Couldn't finish it because it was boring."
And I had been 'this' close to a Pulitzer. lol
My incipient paranoia - which is never far from the surface - made me wonder if Marcus might not have been right a few weeks ago. Perhaps it might not be a good idea to write and review under the same name; I had dished out a number of low scores of my own. Was this retaliation from a disappointed author? (operating under another name, of course)
Or was it just an honest reaction from someone who had some(hopefully momentary) difficulty spelling (or in fairness, perhaps typing) three-letter words and is not enamoured with that most intricate and complicated literary concept, the flashback? Alas, I shall probably never know.
Curiously, I happened to 'mention' regretfully to one person who is known to frequent this den of iniquity that I had gotten a bummer review; perhaps not so coincidentally a personage calling himself 'seeJeffgo' became a new member later in the day and wrote a nice review of that same story (which, remember, hadn't been reviewed in months).
"Jeff" - if you're the person I 'spoke' to about the lousy review -- thank you for trying to cheer me up, but you didn't need to do that.
And if you're not the person I 'spoke' to, thanks for cheering me up!
Which once again is testimony to the consoling power of a nice review or an e-mail to us ink-stained wretches.
Thanks to all who've taken the time to read the stories, even those 'who couldn't finish because it was boring';
And a special thanks to those who've gone to the trouble of reviewing them or dropping me a line.
Boccaccio
===================Quote:
Originally posted by Parker
From experience, I can tell you that there is nothing more encouraging to an author to receive feedback, both positive and negative. That was one of the things that (a) kept me writing as long as I did and (b) dictated the types of stories I would write.
So, if you come across an author you want to encourage, I highly recommend that you send along some comments. Not only will this repay the author for taking the time to write the story, but it will often have the effect of "inspiring" the author to write more.
I read your final story not long ago and recommend it very highly to everyone (except for the reviewer who got confused about the way Jade Pavilion I jumped around --he'd REALLY be confused by 'your' story. <g>
You apparently wrote that story knowing that it would be your swan song. It's none of my/our business, but if you feel like talking about it, why did you hang it up? Any regrets? Have you ever considered taking pen (OK, keyboard) in hand again?
My compliments to one of the best,
Boccaccio
Pooka wrote:
That raises an interesting issue, that of our obligation to both readers and other writers. However, I would find it hard to objectively review a story if the story is not one I find interesting. If anything, let the reviewers each focus on the kinds of stories they like, by genre or story code. I could never rate a snuff story highly no matter how well it was written. The subject is totally non-erotic to me and I could not give a balanced review.
============================================
I understand your point and agree with it to some degree, but once you have started the story and have decided to at least read a significant amount of it, I think it is appropriate to review it.
A restaurant critic should be able to review Greek food, for example, fairly, even if he or she doesn't particularly care for it. A film critic ought to be able to review "Ten", "The Ten Commandments" and "Ten Little Indians" even though it is unlikely that he would appreciate each of those three genres to the same degree. And we experts in erotica (aren't we? <g>) should be able to separate the "writing" of a story from the "subject matter";
(That's not to say that the personal erotic thrill felt by the reviewer of a story should have no bearing on a review; it's certainly a factor. But the quality of the writing should be an important factor, too).
I opened and, somewhat to my surprise, kept reading a very-well written story here that involved bestiality a few weeks ago. Not my kink at all -- but is my kink better than that author's? The setting and the characters were really well done; I gave the story a nice review even though it wasn't erotic to my taste at all.
Snuff stories are very sensitive to some; and I certainly don't search them out. But the death of a character should not in and of itself be opprobrious, I don't think, in a proper setting. A story of a thrill killing utterly without literary value is another matter, of course; that's what the reviews should do -- make distinctions between the two for the potential reader's benefit.
The stories that disappoint me most are the ones whose codes suggest that the story IS in line with my tastes -- in terms of M/F, degree of violence, degree of consensuality, etc -- but still leave me uninvolved because they're poorly done.
Boccaccio
PS Is it "Pooka" as in the Jimmy Stewart film, "Harvey"?
(Harvey was a "pooka" or "pookah" a giant white rabbit (unseen by all but Stewart) who served as something of a benign guardian spirit over the eccentric character played by Stewart, offering timely advice now and then.
:eek: Yuk! It's a good job we writers don't take this kind of thing personally isn't it? ;)Quote:
A few clicks later I opened the review to find a big fat 4. :-)
If there is one thing worse than being talked about, it is NOT being talked about. (Oscar Wilde)
The same applies to the stories. I'd rather receive negative comments and/or low ratings than absolutely nothing. Many of the regular authors habitually receive negative reviews/low ratings but they still keep posting new stories. Maybe it spurs them on, trying/hoping for better next time. I admire their persistance if not always their product!
You doubted me?? When an author writes reviews under the same name I feel it is only a matter of time before a tit-for-tat review is posted. Human nature!Quote:
Boccaccio: My incipient paranoia - which is never far from the surface - made me wonder if Marcus might not have been right a few weeks ago. Perhaps it might not be a good idea to write and review under the same name; I had dished out a number of low scores of my own. Was this retaliation from a disappointed author? (operating under another name, of course)
I maintain a separate name each for reviews, forums and forum posting. That way I can write objective reviews without their being referenced to my forum posts. It also enables me to give credit where due to stories written by forum members without a sense of mutual 'back scratching'. Believe me, I don't always give great reviews although I hope they are constructive.
:)
hello to all who have provided excellent dialogue in this thread.
I know for me, it was very hard to write reviews initially. I worried about not being able to meet the same apparent degree of literary insight that I have read from other reviewers.
I read a post on these forums at one point and realized the importance of providing my own personal insight.
After taking the iniitial risk in reviewing, it has become my practice to review any story i read.
I have enjoyed reading this thread, excellent points have been discussed.
looking forward to continued reading here in the forums...
veru skjava
[QUOTE]Originally posted by veru_skjava
[B]:)
hello to all who have provided excellent dialogue in this thread.
## And you, too, Marcus! ;-)
I know for me, it was very hard to write reviews initially. I worried about not being able to meet the same apparent degree of literary insight that I have read from other reviewers.
## If I may borrow a line from Marcus' Twain, "It is difference of opinion that makes horse races." That's what fora like these are for.
I read a post on these forums at one point and realized the importance of providing my own personal insight.
After taking the initial risk in reviewing, it has become my practice to review any story i read.
## A commendable practice to which I have adhered since we began this thread several weeks ago (except for a period when I was plagued by technical difficulties) and which I recommend to all of the authors, in particular. If the authors alone were to review every story we read, I think our brethren and sistren would be swimming in reviews.
I have enjoyed reading this thread, excellent points have been discussed.
looking forward to continued reading here in the forums...
## I am not sure if we are permitted or encouraged to review avatars, but may I be among the first to give yours a ten? I have studied it carefully, and find it above reproach
Boccaccio
:)
thank you Sir, I kinda like it myself. My Master/Owner loves it.
proud smile
veru skjava
I've just read Boccaccio's review of Jessica Verdi's 'Plumbers Revenge. Hilarious!! :D Let's hope she has a sense of humour.
Now we need a rating system for the reviews!!!
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/r...p?storyid=1071
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marcus
[B]I've just read Boccaccio's review of Jessica Verdi's 'Plumbers Revenge. Hilarious!! :D Let's hope she has a sense of humour.
I'm hopeful that in the next chapter the plumbing protagonist will tie the fetching heroine in the arousing and inescapable 'lead pipe cinch' and gently torment her with his snake until she is flushed with desire and completely drained sexually.
I'm also hopeful that Ms Verdi herself won't mind the tenor of my review.
But I must confess that it would be im-pasta-ble for a Boccaccio not to be smitten by an authoress with such an inspired name.
What fourteenth century Florentine teller of ribald tales wouldn't look con amore on a woman who shares her first name with one of the heroines of "The Merchant of Venice" and her surname with Italia's greatest composer, that smooth opera-tor, Giuseppe Verdi.
O patria mia! Viva Verdi!
I see signorina Verdi as a dark-eyed Italian temptress, a slave to the fires burning in her erogenous calzone, wearing only a wisp of black silk and an enigmatic smile which suggests, in the words of our great poet,
"Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate." *
Boccaccio
*"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"
I just checked one the stats for my new story and I was kind of disappointed when I saw that there had been over 7200 readers, but not one single review.
You know? It's not that I'm looking for high praise or anything, but I would like to know how I'm doing. Maybe people are just waiting for me to write more before they commit to reviewing it.
Still, I would like to see the review the story step of the reading process become a little more proactive. Maybe give the readers an annoying pop-up window that says review this story now in big letters at the top. Well, maybe not that proactive, but something.
Or maybe I'm just ranting and need to relax and just let people enjoy or not enjoy what I write, right?
Congratulations on receiving your two reviews, albeit from regular reviewers. Hopefully you've had some emails as well.
It seems like a 'hardcore' of reviewers (maybe 20!) are providing the bulk of the reviews while the vast majority (99+%) continue to stay silently consuming both the stories and the reviews.
So, come on all you 'lurkers', write a nice review and make a writer's day!
Hello again,
I have a question for the regular reviewers. When you read and reveiw, do you go back to your reviews after updates?
I am following with great interest Raiders Dungeon, and though rarely do I reply to a review, I did here.
Boccacio gave some excellent feedback to the story, and the author took note.
I am just curious, as to wether revisions to previous reviews are common practice.
Thanks everyone :)
veru skjava
I can't think of a specific instance where I have reviewed a story that was episodic, except for Tracy in Trouble and I reviewed that one after about the 29th update.
However, if I did read a story that improved over time, I would definitely write a re-review and change my initial rating, if possible.
That's a good point. I would gladly revise a review on an incomplete story. There are a few that come to mind already.Quote:
I have a question for the regular reviewers. When you read and reveiw, do you go back to your reviews after updates?
I always try to give a fair assessment of a story, but I prefer to give an instinctive mark for how much I enjoyed the story, rather than making an academic judgement.
Sometimes, I feel guilty that I haven't graded a story as high as the author would hope for, particularly where mine is the only review for the story. But it's the responsibility of other readers to register their viewpoints also.
A story's worth can not and should not be measured by only one person's opinion.
... but it seems the reader/reviewer ratio is somewhere around 8000:1, so getting more reviews is harder than it looks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Originally posted by veru_skjava
Hello again,
I have a question for the regular reviewers. When you read and reveiw, do you go back to your reviews after updates?
I am following with great interest Raiders Dungeon, and though rarely do I reply to a review, I did here.
Boccacio gave some excellent feedback to the story, and the author took note.
I am just curious, as to wether revisions to previous reviews are common practice.
Thanks everyone :)
veru skjava
Veru raises a good question. There are two problems.
I see now that at some point Veru appended a comment on the Review page to my review of "Raiders" noting that a 'flaw' (IMO)that I had mentioned had been corrected. But unfortunately, I had no idea that her comment had been posted or that the 'flaw' had been addressed. I'm not really asking for this, at this point, Jinn, but is it feasible that an e-mail could be sent to reviewers indicating that a comment had been appended to a review? Don't do it (yet) -- I'm just asking the question.
The second problem is that if a story is in installments and I read the first installment or two and give it less than an excellent score/review, the chances are that I may never come back to it to see if the problems (as I saw them) have been addressed. There are only so many hours in the day, and there is a constant flow of new stories. So, to answer your question, Veru, I don't believe that I have had occasion to change the score of a review that I have written. But now that you have called my attention to the 'improvements', I'll try to revisit the story in question.
My experience, in terms of not revisiting many of the installments I have reviewed, may not be typical. But surely, if others are doing similarly, it provides all the more incentive, fellow writers, to make that first installment as polished and entertaining as you possibly can -- some readers may not have time to give it a second chance. Although I think that most readers, including me, would give a new story by that same author a second chance.
I would like to second Moggy's comment that one should not normally pre-judge a story based on one person's opinion (unless you have found that your tastes coincide very closely with those of the reviewer in question). And that is why we'd both like to see more people get involved in the process; if you do, you'll find, I think, that you begin to read other people's reviews with almost as much interest as you read the stories.
Boccaccio
Granted I am the most computerly inept person you are ever likely to meet (just ask Jinn), but I have one answer to the question "Why do people send e-mails to authors, but they won't review?" I have been on this site as a reader for about ten months now, but readers are not allowed to review. They ARE, however, allowed to write e-mails, which I have done to some twenty of the authors on this site. Only a 'user' may write a review, but nowhere could I find an explanation of how to become a 'user'! I hate being a bother, but eventually I broke down and asked Jinn how to become a 'user' and, of course, nothing could be simpler ONCE YOU KNOW HOW. The trick is finding out how. I would like to suggest that the information on how to become a 'user' be placed in the description of 'user' priviledges, just as the information on how to become a 'member' is included in the description of 'member' priviledges.
As an aside, I had to laugh at the comment someone made about writing under a female pseudonym to get a larger response. I have written to twelve 'female' writers at this site and gotten responses back from nine of them. Only three of the nine 'male' authors I have written to have responded. The 'females' may have a different take on why they get a better response, but my view is, they're getting back because they're willing to 'put out' for their fans and the 'males' are not.
Last point this post: I recognize the validity of what some of you have said about reviewers who give balanced reviews being a more valuable resource than reviewers (like myself) who only give 'good' reviews. My hat is off to the 'users' who take their reviewing responsibilities more seriously than I do, and I hope they die in bed with smiles on their faces. My position is that my life is too short to waste it writing a review of a story I didn't like. Objectivity is not my strong suit and I am incapable of writing a constructive review of a story that bored (or nauseated) me. Since I don't get my jollies from offending people, I abide by the "If you can't say something nice..." adage and pass quietly along to the next story. Those lucky(?) authors who have been recipients of my e-mails know that I usually include some criticism in my fan letters, but if the story isn't at least a '6', it isn't worth my effort.
I shall now step back from the pulpit...
... even just as a regular viewer, I think.
It's been so long ago, I don't actually remember.
I do know that when you download a story there are links on the story page itself to both review and write the author an email. Unless that's changed in the last three or four days.
The link is still there, but if you are just a reader/viewer all you can do is read/view the reviews. In order to write a review you have to be a user.
Judging by the irrational and partizan views in the reviews in 2000 I can see that it makes sense that the reviewers are registered. It's easy to do and costs nothing, after all!
It's almost unbelievable that less than one in a thousand readers make a review, or I assume, bother to send an email to an author.
I agree, it does seem incredible (and inconsiderate). I comment on maybe one story posting in twenty and I consider myself a lazy son-of-a-bee. Taking into account the breakdown between updates and new stories that would be what, maybe one in twelve stories? That's not very good. I make excuses for myself (I'm reading with one hand; if I stop to review I'll lose my hard-on), but there's no reason I couldn't go back when I've 'finished' and type a few words. As it is, usually the story I 'finish' with is the only one I give feedback to.
Really though, there are eight thousand-some registered users on this site. I registered specifically so I could post and review. As nearly as I can tell, under three hundred users have ever posted (is that right, Jinn?). If they're not posting and they're not reviewing, why did they register? Anybody? (Of course, anyone who responds would be a poster and therefore ineligible to respond! I think I'd better think it out again!)
I have been posting here for over a year and it is a great site and I do get a lot of people reading my stories. But I think I have only got about 2 e-mails from 22 stories and 484,000 views. Most of my stories get at least a couple of votes, maximum of about 5.
I post on 9 other sites. I get much more in voting, on Literotica, most get over 200 votes. And at that site, I can get over 100 e-mails from one story.
I think the main differnce in voting, is that they only require a number vote, not a comment. I think people tend to be afraid of saying something. On sexstoriespost.com, they have voting (1-5) and then at the bottom of the page you can make a comment. This splits it up for those that do not want to make a comment, but would like to vote.
I am not sure what drives the e-mail. I have written with female writers on a story and she gets all the e-mail from men, I get all the e-mails from woman. I could count the number of e-mail from men on 10 fingers, while woman are over 1,000.
I set it so that people can't rate a story without a comment. I know you would get much more votes if no review and/or registration are required. Maybe it's a good idea to allow anonymous readers to vote.
Literotica is no doubt a much more popular site than this one. It may have 20 to 50 times more daily visitors than bdsmlibrary. So it's no surprise you can get a lot response from them. But it is surprising you got only 2 emails from bdsmlibrary readers out of the 1000 total emails. It is indeed disappointing. But it seems people tend to send private emails instead of writing a public review.
I visited the two sites that Powerone mentioned and I have to say it was an eye opener; like a village boy visiting the big city for the first time! But you know, I was very glad to return to my village at the end of it!
I never thought I'd equate BDSM aficianados with country folk but maybe there is something in it! We seem to like our little backwater away from the metropolis of normal sexual activity.
(I must also say congratulations to Powerone for the very high ratings he received on one of those sites.)
You have to remember also that each site is usually geared to different readers. On literotica, they do not allow underage sex or rape. On BDSMlibrary.com, I don't think Jinn has ever rejected a story (at least none of mine and I do write a wide variety).
As far as presentation of stories, BDSMlibrary.com far exceeds any of the other sites I belong to. On Literotica, if you post a story, it is one of about 25 that day and it goes off the "new" story section for only 5 days. The only way to get high numbers is to get high voting average so it will stay on the Top list, but even then, it is difficult because it runs 5 pages and only the first page will get you high views. Literotica only allows about 5 word intro's, most sites do not allow any, a far cry from BDSMlibrary.com.
I also think that BDSMlibrary.com has a higher caliber of writers. Some sites post stories that are barely legible, never mind interesting, written in 10 minutes. BDSMlibrary.com has a fine group of writers, each week getting better. I am enjoying Cortez's stories lately.
Thank you for your compliment. Although your stories stay in the news section for much longer time, they may still get less exposure to readers than on Literotica. Just this site is oriented to bdsm fictions, the readers might appreciate the bdsm-related stories more. But who knows. I reject stories mainly based on the quality. It's true that some stories on this site are not that good, but believe me, you haven't seen the worst. I thought my criteria for rejection was set pretty low, but everything has a limit. And for me, it's a sad thing to say to the authors that I can't accept their works (well, most times I don't get any reply from them either).
Now THIS is interesting! (I may be going off-thread here.) I have never attempted to submit a story, but I had no idea that there was any screening process involved prior to posting. (Eeek! Naivite check!)
I had made the assumption that you had to submit a story in order to learn the guidelines for submitting (apparently, I assume a lot). Jinn, is it possible to get a copy of the guidelines without having a story ready for submission?
Jinn: I agree with not allowing a rating without a comment. I also think that allowing anonymous voting is a good idea. Perhaps require an e-mail address instead? Or maybe even have the e-mail address as an optional field?
Curtis: I'm new here, but remember checking out the submission page while considering submitting some of my own fiction. I don't know that it will answer your questions but it's here:
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/story_submit.php
Though Jinn and others here are most likely MUCH more knowledgeable about such things than I. *shy smile* Perhaps there are other guidelines or a list of them elsewhere?
BTW, I ran a forum search and couldn't find anything mentioning this topic and this seems as good a place to post my question as any.
Are readers limited to one review per story? Are we allowed to post additional reviews that will reflect in the overall rating of the story as the story progresses? Or are we limited to responding to existing reviews?
Example:
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/r...p?storyid=1293
I posted a review to Taking Carol on April 20th. A new chapter has been posted since my review. I love, love, love, love, LOVE this story and, having taken in the latest chapter, would like to ad an additional review. May I? Please? Or is this forbidden/ bad taste?
kittenfemme, I think I can return your favor. As you said, there are others who are much more knowledgable about these things than I am, but my understanding is that a given reviewer may only review a given story once. HOWEVER, they may update their review as often as they like (and, of course, respond to other reviewers). Hope that helps, and I'm just about to check out your suggestion.
I agree Curtis. Thank you for the reply. I noticed the "edit" link after the reviewers' name on the review listing page for each story only today. I think that serves to support the hypothesis.
Also, this forum's e-mail notification when someone replies to a thread feature kicks! Love it.
As Powerone mentioned email responses consistently are outnumbered by ratings/reviews (R&R), and these by the number of hits. The significance to the writer in gauging his/her audience reaction reduces by the time you get to the anonymous hit score because there's obviously no way of telling if the reader actually read the piece or just clicked on the d/l.
Actually R&R and email are just like frosting on the cake, the original pleasure coming in the conception and crafting of the story. R&R and emails are certainly nice whenever they occur because they frequently hint at what the particular emailer/reviewer enjoys reading best. Assuming that others feel similarly, then it can help tailor future submissions to the tastes of the bsm library audience. It gives an idea of what provides the most pleasure and what does not, something it would be presumptious to assume.
And of course it's always nice to receive feedback.
My two cents worth: If somebody wants to rate (and review) a story then it really isn't a hardship for them to be registered. Using a hotmail style email addr means the person can be as anonymous as they want to be.
Besides, I like the feature that lists a reviewer's 'history'. It gives an idea about whether to trust a review. This would be lost if the site returned to unregistered reviewing.
Faibhar, I'm impressed by your relaxed attitude to reviews. I assumed a prime motivator for posting on this site is for the reviews and feedback. Even though it seems a paltry amount in comparison to the actual downloads.
Those are quite valid points Moggy. It is very nice to see a person's review history.Quote:
Originally posted by Moggy
I like the feature that lists a reviewer's 'history'. It gives an idea about whether to trust a review. This would be lost if the site returned to unregistered reviewing.
Quoting 60/70's lyrics??? Oh well, with every season there must be a change, or something like that.
Moggy, getting reviews/feedback is not a prime motivator for submitting stories to this site-at least, not for this writer. Not to distance myself in any superior way from other fine writers who may require reviews/feedback for motivation I have found that at least for me it is the conception and proper delivery of a story that makes for satisfaction. Getting responses from readers is a secondary, although at times very valuable, benefit.
If any of the above makes any sense, the bromide about not quitting your day job remains sage advice.
Just to flog a dead horse, I am returning to Marcus' comment on writing under a female pseudonym to increase your e-mail response from readers.
I have now sent e-mails or PMs to 13 pseudonymously male authors and received replies from 5. On the other hand, I have contacted 19 ostensibly female authors and received replies from 16, six of whom have entered into prolonged exchanges (vs one of the males).
I realize that this study sample is minute, but as it grows the results are remaining consistent. This tends to confirm my earlier hypothesis that the reason women receive more e-mails is that people are more likely to write to people who will write back to them.
(Aside to Faibhar: Trying to keep up with your allusions is exercising my faculties. It took me days to realize that your remark concerning lyrics from the 1960's was directed at me! The subject line of that post was, of course, a response to the Thread subject line. But then, you knew that <wink>.)
But I think your test was biased. You are a male writer sending to a group of males and a group of females. Try the same test, but this time have a male send a e-mail to a female writer and a female send an e-mail to male writer. I think you will find equal participation by the writer.
I am a writer and I have written numerous stories with female writers. I have found that in 95% of the case, male readers write to female writers and female readers write to male writers.
The few e-mail's I receive from male writers usually are asking for help on writing.
Powerone
Interesting point. It's a lot of labor to ask someone else to undertake, but there may be a couple of female posters here willing to give their all for science. I'll ask them if this project would appeal to them.