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When I first started reading the stories here, if I remember correctly, a woman was doing the updating. Sometimes it HAS been weeks in between updates, so I just look and see when new stories are up and read what I think might be exciting to me. It's not that big of a deal if it is a couple of weeks betwwen postings.
:strip1:
I can always entertain myself!
Jinn and I discussed this matter at some length about six months ago, and he agreed to start posting on a fairly regular schedule, twice a week, usually on Wednesday and Saturday. He had followed this agreement rather scrupulously until about two weeks ago. Since according to him, the number of postings submitted often is greater than his maximum of 25 per change, it would be odd indeed if this cessation in posting didn't have something to do with the current brouhaha over the impending move on sites such as this by the feds.Quote:
Originally Posted by heycarrieanne
I know. It's just terrible that they have to find an outlet like stories to satiate their desires. So, why don't we take those stories away from them so they have to go look for real kids to hurt and abuse instead of just reading about fictional ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by heycarrieanne
Gosh, that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
I don't really believe the curability of child sex offenders is at the issue here, rendering this bit of information moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by heycarrieanne
Oh indeed? So, again, by the same token, if I read "The Scarlet Letter" then I shall be compelled to commit adultery? Is that correct? What will happen to me if I read "Silence of the Lambs," or "Harry Potter," or "Tom Sawyer?" Will that make me have the compulsion to become a serial killer? Will that give me the compulsion to begin practicing sorcery? Will that compel me to racism?Quote:
Originally Posted by hetcarrieanne
So, my question is: Who's kidding whom?
Real Life. Fiction. Two completely separate things.
Real life = Do what ya gotta do.
Fiction = Do what ya always wanted to do.
Don't mean '..preaching to the perverted'? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by csr
And, it's funny but that's exactly what I was thinking--why bother bitching here?
Symbolism?
I think I'd feel better about this whole thread if everyone said, "We disagree with the decision in principle, but understand why you find it necessary, Jinn."
It's the people who aren't objecting because they just don't like underage stories that I find hard to comprehend. It's like they haven't followed the logic through. It's all perverse in someone's eyes.
And congratulating Jinn for making the decision? Bizaare. He's already stated that this has almost nothing to do with the actual content and everything to do with the political climate.
CE.
As strange and odd as it may be considering the site we're on, to some, it is beyond perverse and just plain wrong for underage (children) stories. I won't lie... I'm one of them. I don't understand the attraction and I never will... and if you asked anyone that knows me they would say I can understand almost anything regardless if I agree. I at very least see both sides. I just don't see both sides to children involved in a sexual fantasy. Then again, I'm someone who doesn't like fantasy that couldn't turn into reality, so maybe that's why? But honestly, regardless of the specific kind of story that Jinn felt he had to regulate/censor/eliminate on this site, I wouldn't argue because it's not my site. It's not my ass on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivale Ed
sorry. Hope that helps explain a little though.
I get why you don't like underage stories, I really do. I sympathise, they make me uncomfortable, too. Ultimately, though, it's completely irrelevant. Not liking something in fiction, detesting it even, is not a good enough reason to support a ban, especially considering what the 'outside world' may well think of the rest of the stories on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by orchidsoul
By all means, if you can't stand even the thought of a child engaged in a sex act, don't read the stories that feature them. But, please, don't consider it a positive move that a fantasy, no matter how repulsive, is being censored.
Essentially, you're condoning an act simply because it doesn't, immediately, affect you. But what happens when it does? Will it be acceptable for someone else to ban your favourite story, simply because they consider your tastes 'beyond perverse'? And, I'm sure, there are many who do. Should they have that right? Unless you are, in theory, prepared to sacrifice the site in its entirety, then, in principle, you cannot support this ban.
Don't be pleased something is gone just because you didn't like it. Think about why it's gone, and then mourn it's loss.
I took no offence at anything you said, orchid, I hope the same is true in return. Also, I've said many times now, Jinn must do what is right for him. In that, he has my support.
CE
More interesting points... but some of closing down and re-designing it?! ....
However, will closing down the child stories solve anything in the end; the government seem against poor between consenting adults who's job is to make porography. This new anti-porn squad is a danger no matter what.
However, what are people going to do if all porn sites based in the US are closed down, will there be an outcry.. unlikely, but the government are going to have problems when the sites are just based abroad. There are download sites for mp3's etc now based abroad after they were going to be closed down.
Wouldn't it be better for the governments to start concentrating on something more important than pornography, there are enough problems in the world today for all the rich countries to deal with, yet they waste their time shutting down websites.
I received this in my subscription to "DOMestic" today and I felt it would be of interest.
subject line: X: the Bush/Gonzales War against Free Speech
posted on: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:35:53 -0000
posted by: "thrash999" (email address removed)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom
Contact: (removed)
Wave of Obscenity Prosecutions Leads to Closure and Self-
Censorship of SM Websites October 20, 2005 - Attorney General
Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically
target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic
and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity
prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late
July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity
prosecutions, and the FBI announced in September that it was
forming an anti-obscenity task force to crack down on
pornography.
Any website that has content containing "bestiality, urination,
defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" should
be forewarned that prosecution is possible. Additionally,
Federal sentencing guidelines state that any obscenity- related
punishment should be "enhanced for sadomasochistic material."
Forty people and businesses have been convicted of obscenity
since 2001, and 20 additional indictments are pending according
to Andrew Oosterbaan, chief of the Justice Department's child
exploitation and obscenity section. There were only four
obscenity prosecutions during the eight years of the Clinton
administration.
Though adult content is, in theory, protected by the First
Amendment, only a jury can determine if a work is obscene or not
under the subjective set of standards that vary from one
community to the next established in the 1973 Supreme Court
ruling, Miller v. California.
Text is not inherently more protected than images when it comes
to obscenity charges. The erotic fiction website Red Rose
Stories is facing obscenity charges after federal agents raided
the owner's home on October 3rd, taking computer equipment and
diskettes that contained all of their files and site
information.
The Department of Justice is clearly hoping that websites will
self-censor or remove their content entirely. Midori, a fetish
model and SM educator who teaches classes on bondage, has
removed her website, BeautyBound.com, citing fear of obscenity
prosecution. The owner of three SM websites, known as GrandPa
DeSade, removed his websites from the Internet. SuicideGirls.com
also announced they are self-censoring their materials over
concerns about a possible obscenity crackdown.
Recent prosecutions of obscenity on websites include: A former
police officer in Lakeland, Florida, was arrested on October 7th
on over 300 obscenity-related charges for the sexual content
posted on his website. The same day, webmaster Chris Wilson,
owner of amateur website NowThatsFuckedUp.com, was raided on
charges of obscenity by a local Sheriffs office.
"I think it's crucial for us to stand up for consensual
sadomasochism and other alternative sexual practices," says
Barbara Nitke, fetish photographer. "This is a battle worth
fighting, and I hope everyone who can will just censor out the
most provocative material from their websites, but keep them up.
I also appeal to the lawyers in our community to help us find
ways to keep people's websites up."
Barbara Nitke and the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom
(NCSF) have proactively challenged federal obscenity laws as
applied to the Internet, arguing that obscenity laws based on
"local community standards" are too vague and their existence
burdens protected speech, resulting in self-censorship due to
the fear of prosecution. A district court three-judge panel in
New York ruled that while Nitke and the NCSF members were at
risk, more proof was needed that obscenity laws cause otherwise
protected speech to be restrained through acts of self-
censorship.
The case is currently on appeal to the United States Supreme
Court. "The effect of silencing alternative lifestyle speech was
exactly why we brought the lawsuit," says attorney John
Wirenius, lead counsel for NCSF. "The self- censorship we are
seeing underscores the importance of supporting our ongoing
obscenity challenge."
To contribute to the appeal of the CDA lawsuit, go to: (removed)
The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is a national
organization committed to creating a political, legal, and
social environment in the United States that advances equal
rights of consenting adults who practice forms of alternative
sexual expression. NCSF is primarily focused on the rights of
consenting adults in the SM- leather-fetish, swing, and
polyamory communities, who often face discrimination because of
their sexual expression.
(web site, email, name and address removed)
***
Since I was unsure if it was ok to post names and address here, I've removed them.
Well, first I have to admit I'm attracted by stories involving "minors" up (or better down) to a certain age (about 14, I'd say). I especially like those stories where a boy/girl dominates his/her mother (just think of those great Kathy Andrews stories *sigh*). Now there's definitely no child harmed, if someone then it's the mother....
But to come to the topic. I support all those fighting for freedom. Cencorship in any way does not help anybody. Those of you who consent with taking out child porn here just because you don't like it are too narrow minded. It's not a personal thing. It's not a "I-like-it" vs. "I-don't-like-it" thing. It's cencorship. It's castration.
Of course pedos feed on those child stories. Let them. Hopefully they're full (pigged out?) afterwards and don't go to abuse a child to unburden from pent-up unfulfilled desires. Porn - in general - is a good method to get relief in some way or other.
But it's the same with those rapists or killers or... whatever you want to choose.
So I think noone here want's to have the stories removed that are labelled NC, MC, drugs, rape ... because that's why we come here. But all those are illegal, too, aren't they?
Where does it begin and where does it end? Well, it starts right here and ends up with no porn at all anymore.
Just a question: Did you ever hear of a law/restriction/cencorship being abolished by those who fallowed? Once installed it's hard (or impossible) to get rid of it. Especially when it's about such a taboo thing like porn. Otherwise a politician would have to state he likes porn.... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaori-san
Finally I wanted to ask if anybody knows what has happened to the "book project". The site hasn't been updated for about half a year so I tried to go there but was told the site has been closed. Is this due to this cencorship?
Ps:I didn't want to insult anybody but if there's someone who wants to feel insulted... well I don't mind... ;)
Oh- I definitely took no offense. You are completely correct. I was just explaining why I hadn't said anything... not that it makes it right. For me, it's also more about the fact that it's Jinn's site. I can't offer any assistance in the battle, so who am I to ask Jinn to fight the government?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivale Ed
digging herself a deeper hole,
Orchid :)
Agreed. That's why I posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivale Ed
is the server that this site on in Canada or the US? tourguide lives in Canada so what is the beef with US laws? or did i miss something along the way?
"I don't like them" is shallow and narrow minded, yes, I agree, so please don't paraphrase it like that. I don't like rainy days, I don't like spiders and snails, I don't like burnt toast, and so on. However, kiddy porn doesn't even begin to come close to those things "I don’t like". In fact, my objections to paedophilia and infantophilia fantasies, have very little to do with what "I like" and "don't like".Quote:
Originally Posted by smg4hg
I do concede that there is a vast grey area between the ages of say 13 and 18--the young and innocent verses the young and not so innocent, I suppose.
This is a very simple issue that some people are sullying with personal opinions. You don't like pedophiles. Good! Me neither. I hate 'em, on a very personal level. The stories with minors make you uncomfortable. Don't read them. But don't cheer because Jinn is being forced to remove the "young" stories unless you're ready to cheer the day anything the US government deems to be "hardcore" is removed from US servers, and any other servers they can bully into sanctioning this action.
Pay attention, folks. You're humming a cheery song as your personal freedoms are being removed right under your own noses. And I think that scares me more than what the government is doing; the fact that so many supposedly broad-minded people are so willing to support this. I think Carnivale Ed said it best, but I'm too lazy to quote so I'll paraphrase. Go back and read it for full effect, though.
Don't applaud the loss of something simply because you don't like it. Examine why it was lost, and then mourn it. /Carnivale Ed sorta-quote
If you can't get past the category that's being removed, pretend it's something else. Pretend it's whatever category you come here to read because it's so much better, so much more explicit, so much dirtier and vast and beautifully eclectic than any other site I've seen (with the possible exception of Asstr). Pretend it's the category you read when no one else is looking, and you found the best selection of stories on that particular subject right here at BDSM library. That's not such a stretch. In fact... Pretend that the whole site is coming down right now. In a way, it is.
Do you understand why this is such a bad thing? Does anyone really feel like there's nothing wrong with what's going on? Anyone? :confused:
'lish
Every time a group, or a person, gives in to the 'Holier than thou" bunch it a victory for them. You should make them come and get the things, that they in thier rightous ignorance, believe are harming the 'public' that they think it is thier job to protect.
Hell I don't want to see children harmed, and I don't believe that anyone using this site does, but censorship isn't going to make any child safer and nearly anyone with any sence knows it. Even these self-rightous pricks know it, if they would tell the truth. It's just a power trip for them.
I can't be the only person in the US that had sex before I was 18. How do you tell the story of a persons sex life without the beginning? I think I know one woman that was over 18 before she started fucking, but even with her that wasn't the beginning of her sex life(masturbation, petting, etc.) Real people, male and female, begin thinking and doing things sexual at about 13, generally with others about the same age and these are the experiences that shape a persons life, if you can't write about them you can't really write about a person.
All that said, I understand. Unless you have unlimited funds these pricks in the government can drain you dry, using your oun tax money to do it, and in the end it wont matter if it's decided that you were in the right, your still broke.
But darn it, it's just not right.
DeGrinch
Give the fascist man a gun shot!
This is war.
The time for peace is over.
The only solution to Nazism and its supporters lies in the Chumbawamba songs Enough is Enough and the Anti-Nazi Song.
Well, I saw there was an update today (or maybe it was yesterday), the "underage stories will be removed" banner is no longer on the front page, and I have yet to received the promised e-mail regarding removal of my stories with the "young" tag. I haven't checked to see if they're still visible, but as of yesterday they were.
Does this mean there's been a change in plans?
Appending to my post, I also just noticed that at least one of the just-posted stories does have the young tag, so perhaps I won't have to decide which of my stories will be revised, and which won't be because the story line would be corrupted beyond repair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
I have the same questions as you do. There are a variety of possibilities to consider, such as that the Library contains almost 4000 stories, and someone has to go through this stack and pick out the ones using the "young" tag. In addition most authors didn't bother using that since "teen" covered everything. This is assuming that all authors paid attention to the original guidelines of no characters under the age of 13! If you were following that requirement, there was no need to bother with "young". Now the problem is magnified by orders of magnitude, since it's no longer a matter of looking for a key word, but it requires that someone now wade through the text for any story that has the code word "teen". Personally I'm holding up on posting anything more to the site until this issue has been resolved. As I've already noted, I have no intention of rewriting anything that I've already posted. Jinn can take it down and keep it :confused: down, that's his choice. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
That could be, but it seems that if plans have not been changed, then a story with a "young" tag would have not been posted so recently. I agree that many underage stories simply used "teen," and some used none at all, which would indeed mean rummaging through every work here to see if there is a 17 year old lurking somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by lex ludite
Assuming the removal of such stories does occur, I will probably revise some of mine so that people can continue to enjoy them here. I think I could do this without ruining the story line in some cases. However, there are a few ("Memoirs of a Slave Girl," for example) for which such an revision would simply not work. I'll simply post my stories with underage characters elsewhere...though bdsmlibrary.com is my absolute favorite story site!
I think that, ideally, some distinction should be drawn between underage
characters as perpetrators and underage characters as victims. For
example, would "The Bad Seed" have had much impact at all if Rhoda
Penmark had been 18?
On the other hand, at least the guidelines are clear. The "Abductor" site
recently embarked on a housecleaning of sorts and announced that:
Certain terms and or stories will not be tolerated: ******,
********, ****, ******, kindigarden, mommy & daddy.
I posted a message pointing out the absurdity of this statement, and my
message was deleted. Then I sent in an e-mail that was ignored. I can
only conclude that that site is being run, not by the merely careless, but
by the truly stupid. (BTW, apparently **** stands for "teen," because
there was a complaint later of having to read through "ump****" stories
to separate the allowable from the intolerable. I imagine that, in future,
"18" will be okay, but "eighteen" will be posted as "eigh****.")
Agree with Jinn or not, at least he's not a boob.
I don't think so! There have been many instances in the past when it was painfully obvious that Jinn wasn't keeping an eye on the rest of the folk responsible for keeping his rather large and complex site operating. Add to this the fact that much of the operation is almost totally automated, and it is easy to see why the left hand of Jinn is not in concert wth his right hand, even in these perilous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
While I am appalled by censorship, I am equally appalled by child sexual abuse. (A person who has not yet reached or surpassed his/her 18th birthday is a child.) I will abide by this rule in the future, if I ever post again. (More about that in announcments.) I am willing to do this because, as an author of fiction, I am hard pressed to say that it is stifling to my creativity. Any story that uses a teen girl is just as well off if that girl is at least 18 years of age or older. Unless there is a compelling need to make a person in an erotic story a child (using such a character for sex is NOT a compelling need,) children should not be part of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn
Robin Lane
Robin Lane said:
With all due respect, even if this doesn't stifle your creativity, it seems fairly obvious by the number of stories with this code that it stifles the creativity of others, or at least hampers it. I also quoted you because I disagree with that statement. Let's try some other combinations with it.Quote:
Any story that uses a teen girl is just as well off if that girl is at least 18 years of age or older.
"Any story that uses two women is just as well off using a man and a woman, because homosexuality is wrong."
"Any story that involves anal sex would be just as stimulating using regular vaginal sex, as anal sex is illegal."
"Any story involving rape is just as well off using a bit of rough sex, because rape shouldn't be eroticized."
"Any story involving female submission would be just as well off without the power exchange, because submission is degrading to women."
I don't agree with any of these sentiments, by the way. I am not trying to be hurtful or rude with my continued comments, either. I just feel, very strongly, that it is inherently wrong to impose a standard on what may and may not be considered proper fantasy. As I've said before, who decides where it ends?
I know, Robin, that you said you were appalled at the censorship, and I'm glad. I also know that, for the majority of your post, you were speaking from a personal viewpoint. It's just the end that got me. It sounds like a sweeping generalization, and I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted.
Take care,
'lish
Congrats, Delish, and all the others speaking out for freedom.
We have been blind-sided and forced to give up way too many of our civil rights and constitutional protections in what has turned out to be a knee-jerk reaction to 9-11. Whether it is unnecessary is moot, at this point.
The problem with any censorship is where does it stop. This year, porn. Next year, religions competing with the State. Soon after, anything the government disagrees with. Ultimately, "Animal Farm"... or "1984". Unpersons. Rewriting history. Who knows what.
Jinn must do what he needs to do, understood. This is his group, his baby; we must not kill it with our needs. But it's up to us to educate people about tolerance, and the difference between fantasy and child abuse/endangerment.
Speak to your friends and relatives. Or plan to live in one of George Orwell's horror worlds.
As you know, I already gave you my thoughts on this post by email, however in the interests of a balanced discussion, it seems fair that I present them in public too. As I've said I think your comments are unfair...particularly the more "personal" remarksQuote:
Originally Posted by C_Lakewood
The owners of the site in question are neither stupid nor careless (or boobs). Yes, the filter they applied to undesirable terms was put in place before the post was made, and obviously had the effect of hiding the words they were supposed to be warning posters not to use. It was a mistake, but those happen. Given that the site owners run a number of BDSM/fetish pay sites which have all been burdened with the new regulations on record-keeping, and they are snowed under with making their business compliant, I think that the odd mistake is forgiveable.
Now add the latest threat to free speech, which has necessitated the removal of all the stories from the site until they can be verified not to contain such subjects as underage, snuff and bestiality and the possibility of legal proceedings if they aren't careful, and I would hope that most of their actions are seen to be understandable. (I can't comment on the deletion of your post, however, but as I told you in the email, I have never known it happen before.)
The story site in question is free, as is this one. It's a service provided to those who wish to read and write erotic fiction and it's paid for by the business from the other sites that they are struggling to keep open in the face of the latest crackdowns. Their easiest course of action would actually be to shut the story site down altogether, but they care enough about the stories and those who contribute to keep going. I think that should be applauded. The same applies to this site. In fact, at a time like this, maybe those of us who participate in these, or any other forums, should be pulling together, rather than criticising.
Finally, no I'm not wholly objective - I've known the owners (at least in an online capacity) for a while and I'm one of the moderators there. That aside, I have tried to keep this post as objective as possible.
Robbing at bank is a crime. Thinking about robbing a bank is not a crime. Nor is dreaming about what you would do with the money.
I hate censorship. I have ever since some misguided citizen got William F. Buckley's conservative National Review banned from the library as a communist magazine when I was in high school.
Giving in just makes them come after you all the harder. I certainly don't condone sex with children or many of the other extreme acts depicted in stories on this site. But there is a huge difference between fantasy and reality, and all but a tiny, tiny fraction of people stay on the right side of that line. What a shame that everyone has to suffer.
I think underage sex, bdsm, sadism, bestiality, homosexuality and the whole lot is disgusting. It does my heart good to see these stories removed. If only they could ALL be removed.
God knows the perverted thoughts going through your heads. And God don't like fags, queers, dykes, sluts, witches, ribbers, pills, or sex other than for the purpose of making babies. We have been waiting for 200 years and now we own the government and we own you. This country was founded by Christians, and now it will be a Christian nation once again.
The best part is...even if you move the content, you are still here. Do you really think you can hide behind a computer?!? We can find you. We can prosecute you. First the site owners, then the authors, then the readers. You sick pagans - may you burn in hell!
:D