Thank you rach that is correct.
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Thank you rach that is correct.
No, that is the definition of bad communication. I hope it isn't what we're having here. There's a big difference between a political campaign and a friendly discussion. I'm preparing a little longer reply on my opinion/theory of the origins of crime. At least what it means to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rach
Thank you Ozme for those very kind words. Wolf, I'm really trying not to be an annoying know-it-all which I know I have a tendency to be. My goal is never to win. Only to test my opinions and if possible learn something.
Well I feel like I'm learning something at any rate. This has a been a really interesting thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
I disagree with you on that. I think sometimes it might be bad communication but not always.Quote:
No, that is the definition of bad communication.
I've had friendly discussions with people, and have known by the end of a frank and complete discussion, that we will not agree on that particular topic. It might be due to personal experiences or political leanings, but whatever the reason we simply have a different mindset, and therefore opposing views on the subject in hand. So the discussion is ultimately circular not due to poor communication, but due to strong yet differing opinions.
I'm not saying the discussion isn't an interesting one, and it certainly opens people's eyes to new opinions, and information, but if the same people are in the discussion, it will end up back where it started.
Exactly... as the marriage counselor my husband and I have used before once said...Quote:
Originally Posted by rach
"Sometimes you have to agree to disagree because of your own personal experiences and beliefs."
People feel the way they feel, and I highly doubt that this discussion would change your opinion on guns anymore than it will change mine. But it is interesting to see how other people feel about these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by TomOfSweden
Thanks rach for your post.
I agree to disagree with many when they are not likely to move or I am not.
sometimes you have to know or be hinted at.. or told bluntly the topic is at an end.
I certainly don't want to end a good conversation... but if it is causing frustration may be a good idea to step back for a bit! Otherwise... debate away!
Unsurprisingly, I don't agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by rach
Constructive discussions always work backwards toward the premises and argue their relevance and value and then argue about what can be deduced from the mutually agreed upon premises. Or it should be.
People who use ideological or faith based leanings as an excuse not to try their premises or assumptions are just plain lazy and shouldn't get into discussions at all. But I don't think that's the case here at all. All it needs is two parties with differing opinions to keep a discussion going in a constructive manner. No matter of how many other people might be participating.
Circular reasoning is always down to laziness. Distilled circular reasoning can be summed up as, "it is because it is". That is what happens when people haven't attacked their own arguments enough before reaching a conclusion, and therefore do not know why they believe the way they do. And on top of that aren't willing to do it once it's been revealed.
All arguments are by its nature a cooperative venture. No matter how heated the discussion might get. Everybody taking part, do so because they value the opinions of the "opponent". I think it is a beautiful act. Often frustrating and annoying. But that's the price to pay for knowledge. Even if you keep your own opinion it can still be valuable since your opinion now has been tested, and your faith in it is strengthened. Distilling which specific premises we might disagree on is also valuable information.
Looks like another great discussion was killed and done without a gun. No matter, I'm still going to a class to renew my CWP this weekend. Any criminals out there I need to be on the lookout for?
Perhaps someone let me know, to own a gun in US, do you need to attend any type of classes or get some license to own one?
Not in this State of SC, NK.
for handguns ... You must be 21 years old, a non-felon, you must have a background check ( ie. 5 day wait) unless you possess a CCW/CWP.
For rifles and shotguns the age is 19 I think, and fill out proper paperwork, been so long since i bought a rifle I don't know if they do a background check for a rifle or not. They used to not.
The only thing class wise mandatory at this point is any hunter born after 1986 must attend Hunter's Ed a class mostly on state laws and hunting morals to obtain hunting permit.
What does a background check include and what's a CCW and CWP?
Reasoning for thsis question is because my old boss told me something a while back that struck a cord with me.
He, btw was a big supporter of gun ownership, and the right to bear arms. And was talking specifically about Canada.
He mentioned that to get a full driver's license in Ontario, you have to first study and do a written test, get a learners permit to which you are allowed to drive with a lot of restrictions. After 8 months, and recommended 5 day in-class lessons and driving practise, you get your second license, and finally at any point after then you have to go for another test to finally get your permanent license. All for driving a car.
Gun laws require a simple registery and no classes of any kind. Now those who obey the laws won't go on a gun rampage. But to me it makes more sense having some type of mandatory gun ownership classes, maybe a pych evaluation as well. Perhaps some lessons that will also include protecting your gun so that there are less illegal ones on the street.
I personally support the ability to own guns on the basis that it can be used for sport, and not for self defence. After all isn't that the beauty of democracy, if you feel the government is doing something wrong, you can take a stand using words not violence.
A Background check is a SLED ( State Law Enforcement Division) check to see if your name/id/Info is in the nicks system. if so you are denied.
CCW/CWP is a license to carry a concealed handgun upon your person.
I disagree with your reasons to/for ownership; but that is enough to say at this place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nk_lion
Actually NK, I understand the comparison with driving tests, but there is a bit more to it than registering your gun.
While there are no official classes to obtain a gun in Canada, you are required to write an FAC, in order to purchase one. There are two tests, one with fifty or so multiple questions, and then on to a demo, where you prove you can handle a firearm. I am unsure though if the testing is still the same now.
There are background checks as well.
And if you do not lock up your guns and ammunition properly, you can be charged, even if they are stolen.
If you want to take possesion of, or own a gun, you need to have a PAL (Possession and Licence) another test, but I am uncertain as to what the test involves.
You need an FAC to buy a gun, and a PAL in order to keep them, due to the new gun registry.
If the person who now owns and buys a gun, wants to go hunting with it, they must take a week long course on gun saftey, and hunting regulations.
At any rate, God created men and Mr. Colt made them equal :)
There are national instant background checks for both rifles and handguns through out the US (federal law). You also have to fill out 4473 form (also federal law). Felons don't get any firearm, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfscout
All of it is useless of course and does not stop or even slow down criminals in the slightest which makes me wonder why we don't just go back to following the US constitution?
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
And do away with all of these federal laws.
Agreed but then what would we as citizens and tax payers spend all our money on if we didn't have the government to waste it all?Quote:
Originally Posted by bthest
bthest.. in SC if you have a CWP, you are exempt from background check.
Fill out 4473 form yes. call it in .. nope. smiles.
I respect that, I haven't lived long enough to really worry about the existance of guns yet, but I have heard of stories where gun ownership with the purpose of self defence has saved lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfscout
People on Welfare (who abuse it)... but that's another thread! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Warbaby1943
Actually, it's been positted that if we didn't administer the welfare programs... just gave it to anyone who said they needed it... we'd save enough money to pay for the extra claims, and have enough left over to repair most of the national infrastructure.
Governnemt = waste.
Looking in from the other side of the pond...Quote:
Originally Posted by bthest
Did that not mean that people were given a right to bear arms to protect The state, not that they have a right to bear arms to protect their own their own private and personal state?
cariad
Nope, courts have ruled that it means protection at all three levels.
If they are not safe in their homes.. they can't protect local, state or federal.
I only know about the states where I've had residency. I'm a gun owner and the only state I ever had to get a license to own was California. I also had to pass a basic firearm safety class. In Alabama, you do have to pass a class to get a hunting license (that includes firearm safety) but don't have to do anything to own a firearm. There wasn't even a wait period for my most recent purchase in Louisiana--the gun store had a shooting club attached and so it was considered a 'private sale.'Quote:
Originally Posted by nk_lion
The way I heard it was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Platonicus
God created men and women equal and Swith and Wesson makes damn sure it stays that way.
Well, admittedly I haven't heard it that way, but as the sentiments your alternative expresses do have the cetain ring of truth to them, I won't discount it. And candidly, I wouldn't wish to disagree with one whom I find to be so affable. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Euryleia
Aw, shucks. :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Platonicus
Heard a great quote in my CWP renewal calss today. It went something like this. "Don't let carrying a weapon give you a false sense of security."
I think that says a lot.