Women Shall Submit

You make a very intriguing point. It can be applicable to the BDSM lifestyle (which is actually quite interesting!)
It is true that St. Paul believed that womyn should be subservient to men, as stated in his letter to the Ephesians. Though, to my knowledge, it also extends to men. In it he proclaims that man's sins blacken their wives souls as much as their own, because they were one body, person, and soul after holly matrimony. God may be sexist, but the bible also has domination-female themes. Such as Lilith, Adam's first wife. She decided to choose her own destiny and chose NOT to be subservient to Adam. Which is a statement practically saying that womyn can choose their own destiny.
BDSM at least gives people a choice whether to submit, much better than I can say about religions that stem from Catholicism.
So I believe that bible or not we all can create our own destinies. Whether it be to rebel, such as Lilith, or to submit such as Eve (though technically she rebelled in a way.)

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Originally Posted by Mishka

The Apostle Paul in the Christian Bible was rather adamant about women submitting to their husbands, and being under the headship of their fathers before they marry.

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I think that Paul took the theories behind the relationship dynamic to a much more sexist level than was necessary or even intended. Here is why I think this. Paul discusses how women should be silent in church. He even says that if a woman has a question, she shouldn't even ASK there. Instead, she is to wait until she is at home with her husband and then ask him. I don't believe that God and Paul share this same thought. There are many examples of women leaders throughout the Bible...women leading communities, churches, the first Minister of Music was a woman (Miriam...Moses' sister), and one of the Judges was a woman--Deborah, I think. Obviously it isn't such a big deal to God. Why is it to Paul? Well, first of all, we have to remember that Paul was Saul before he changed his name. And Saul was very highly esteemed in his Jewish community. He was one of the Pharisees; he knew the law perfectly...he was in charge, and he had a lot of status/power. Couple this with the culture of that time, which basically said women were property, and it isn't too hard to figure out that Paul (though he had some good ideas and understood many things very well) missed the boat on this one. So the fact that God puts women in positions of power in church while Paul says women shouldn't speak in church tells me that Paul was just wrong. Good intentions, but wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mishka

In addition to the wife's complete submission to the spiritual head of the home, he is also to love her "as Christ loves the Church" (church being body of believers in Jesus as the Messiah)

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It is true that the church believes Jesus is the Messiah, but when the Bible says that "he should love her as Christ loves the church," that isn't what it means. The Bible says on multiple occasions that there is only one God, that a man cannot serve two masters (which in my opinion refers to the two masters being on the same level; it is possible to have two masters, as long as one master is the ultimate master and above the lesser master). So when it says "as Christ loves the church," it means unconditionally and even to death. Christ died for the church even when He didn't do anything wrong. He suffered out of love. That's what it means. A wife is not supposed to worship her husband--this is not a command for her but for him. He is to love her so much that even if she's wrong he will take the fall for her out of love...it means there should be no limit to the sacrifices he will make for her good.

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Originally Posted by Mishka

I am wondering if this is comparible to the BDSM lifestyle. Do you see it that way? Or do you see that not all women are being commanded to be submissives? That women in this role are choosing it and therefore it is totally other?

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I believe it is. But I don't believe women are commanded to be submissives per se. My belief is gray: Women should be submissive to their husbands in the sense that they should have respect for them. To me, it is no different than the respect husbands should have for their wives; the difference is in the way the respect is shown. I think the main point here isn't WHO is submissive but just that you can't have a peaceful home if everybody wants to be the boss. I think that instead of explaining in detail how it doesn't really matter which person in the couple prefers to be Dominant and which prefers to be submissive, it was just easier to say women should submit. But then again, I don't know if there would have been riots if it were worded in any other way...because back then, women had no rights at all. Submitting wasn't really a choice like it is now. And really, (some people will disagree) God isn't that petty. Honestly, do you think that He's spending time brooding over which one of you is Dominant and which one is submissive? He doesn't care. I really believe it's just not that big of a deal. I think that all of these guidelines were written the way they were because
1)They reflected the culture of that time and
2)The goal is the big picture--peace in the home.

Could you imagine if you lived back then, and you decided you wanted to be the Dominant while your husband would be submissive? I think it's a safe bet that a statement like that would not exactly foster tranquility in your house.

Bottom Line: The Bible clearly states that both people in a couple are to respect and honor one another. It instructs men to not be harsh (because they have a tendency to be) and women to call their husbands 'Lord' (or Master, because it is a sign of respect). So, as long as love is present on both sides. It doesn't matter which person is playing which role. Just because you're a woman doesn't necessarily mean you're stuck in the 'wife' role and vice versa. If God is so petty that it TRULY bothers Him whether or not it's me or my husband who is the Dominant one in the relationship, then I guess I would probably need to re-evaluate the validity of God's promise that "I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you..." Really? So if I'm female and I want to be the Dominant, and if God made me and created me to have a natural urge to Dominate, then the only way that would NOT harm me is if God has no problem with me being a Dominant.

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Originally Posted by TomOfSweden

Arguably nobody today follows the Bible to the letter, and with this reasoning there are no Christians today. Just people using the title just like people wear a hat or picks a pretty but nonsensicle title or name. It becomes devoid of meaning.

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If anyone is interested, there is a book titled Unchristian by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. This is basically just a compilation of statistics about people's opinions concerning those who call themselves Christians. It's extremely interesting and empirical. They do not discuss their personal views much...it's just data from research, which I appreciate.

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Originally Posted by isabeau6

i used to think masturbation was a sin..but where in the Bible does it mention that? these things were pointed out to me by someone..i always thought it was mentioned in the Bible..i have faith..i no longer believe in organized religion..my faith has kept me sane..
isabeau6

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I absolutely hate it when Bible-thumpers twist what the Bible really says and makes up things that don't exist just so they can control people. Now I'm Christian, and I believe the Bible. But to me a Bible-thumper is the kind of person who thinks they are closer to God than anyone else; usually those people are the FURTHEST away, which is why Jesus always had tongue-lashings to hand out to the Pharisees. Just makes me sick.

As for the organized religion bit, my husband is a Minister of Music. So I have the 'privilege' :rolleyes: of seeing how church is run behind the scenes. If you want to find the meanest, most evil, controlling, manipulative, and deceptive people in your community, the local church may be your best bet. It's sad to say, but it's true. Organized religion is worthless and harmful; all it does is set people apart from each other (while people should be unified in love) and twist the truth. Organized religion seems to work much more against faith than it does for it...that's really sad.

Ephesians 5;25

All these posts about obedient women. How many of you men measure up.

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Originally Posted by Canyon

Ephesians 5;25

All these posts about obedient women. How many of you men measure up.

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Ah, yes. "5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

This would be the church that wasn't even founded until years after Christ's death? Kinda hard to love something that didn't exist yet.

But, in answer to your question, I have loved my wife for almost 38 years now. And it didn't take a single Bible quotation to do it, either.